A The prosecutor had received denounciation from the woman who had lived in the house --
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just a moment. Let's dispose of this quickly. There were three charges against you and you were exonerated on two and convicted on the third, is that correct?
MR. FULKERSON: Your Honor, perhaps he does not recognize the fact that you are talking about court-martial but that you are talking about this business at Munich.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: As a result of a court-martial proceedings, you were sentenced to serve imprisonment?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And I understood you to say that you were given this sentence because you had originally attempted to evade military service?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am asking you if that is what you said?
THE WITNESS: With regard to my attempt to evade military service I did not state anything at all. When the charge was read out to me according to which I had evaded military service, I said this was incorrect, because I had served with the Wehrmacht.
JUDGE MUSMANNO What were you convicted of?
THE WITNESS: Because I had tried to evade military service.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes. And had they not gone into that very subject when you were originally put into the service?
THE WITNESS: No, they did not; I was conscripted into the Wehrmacht, and then I was with Infantry Reserve Battalion 469.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. I am only confused as to why after you had already served in the army, and in this SS-Division, that they then brought up a charge which they know about originally.
THE WITNESS: I don't understand your question, Sir.
MR. ROBBINS: Mr. Wolf will put this question in German, and perhaps we can get it correctly in the German.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I would be grateful if he would.
THE WITNESS: OK, go ahead.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: He is hard of hearing.
BY mR. WOLF:
Q Judge Musmanno asked how it came about, since you at that time already were conscripted into service, because you tried to evade the military service, that you did not know anything about this procedure until suddenly you were placed before a court-martial?
A Well, when I came in the SS I could only assume just why I had been transferred to the SS. In the court-martial proceedings my denunciation was read by which it became evident I had acted so not by reason of a youthful folly but that I arbitrarily dodged the military service, and then I was put in Protective Custody as a result of the denunciation.
Q Therefore, up to the time until you were placed before the court-martial, your evading the military service was only considered as having been a youthful folly, and, then it only became acute when you were placed before a court-martial?
A Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Now just one other point. I questioned you yesterday when you were relating the episode of Tschentscher having fired a pistol which he had borrowed from some one else, I asked you why he did not use his own pistol; and I understand, if I recall, that your reply was that he was wearing a long winter overcoat, and perhaps for that reason he was unable to get to it quickly. Now today, when Dr. Krauss question you on that subject, you said he did not have his pistol. Is that or is it not a contradiction?
A No, it is not a contradiction. Yesterday I expressed myself to the effect that I did not know whether Tschentscher carried a pistol on him or not.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Didn't you speak about a long coat?
A No, I replied today, Tschentscher was wearing a long drill coat and since he was not wearing his pistol belt and I could not seen any pistol holster there.
THE PRESIDENT: Does that conclude the examination of this witness by all interested parties?
DR. VON STACKELBERG: Dr. Stackelberg for the Defendant Fanslau: Your Honor, I have only one brief question to put to the witness.
BY DR. VON STACKELBERG:
Q Witness, yesterday, during cross examination I asked you about the happenings at Czlozow. You only talked about the executions at one crater. Today I heard of some bodies that were taken from another crater?
A That was near the citadelle. I was not asked about the fact whether bodies were dug up but only about shooting of Jews. You did not ask whether any other bodies were dug up elsewhere.
Q That incident about the bridge, if I recall correctly, took place in the morning?
A Yes.
Q Did that happen at the same time in that vicinity?
A I can not say that, I can not claim that. I can claim that I saw this and that I heard about it. I did not see both things, however, I can claim that I saw one thing: When I passed by there slowly at a walking pace, I saw that people were about to dig out bodies which allegedly had been shot by the Russian Army. These people were not SSpeople but these people were Jews, according to the procedure which is well known of the Butcher Platoon.
Q What you are trying to say is that at one of the large craters before the citadelle Jews were shot, and further up the road other Jews apparently were engaged in digging up Ukranians who had been shot by the Russians?
A Yes.
Q Now I would like also to know where precisely was the Butcher Company located at the time when the convoy stopped before the bridge?
A It was located between the street and the citadelle -- between the road and the citadelle.
Q And when you came from the bridge in the direction of the citadelle there, was it to the right or to the left of the road?
A It was on the left.
Q It was on the same side where the craters were?
A Yes.
Q Was it a swampy area there?
A No. It went up a slope there.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You have just one other question?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
A What time and at what place were you near the Einsatzgruppe -Do you understand the question. Let me repeat it. At what time and at what place was your outfit near the Einsatzgruppe?
A I cannot tell you that precisely. However, when we passed from Lemberg, and in particular when we passed back with the Butcher Platoon to the Food-Office it was at the beginning of the campaign at Lemberg, I saw that detachment there of the Einsatzgruppe moved in there; this Einsatz Unit was then on the march, and it was going in the direction of Lemberg-Tarnopol; and I can add also at the beginning of the advance, the Administrative Services were not very far removed from such Einsatzgruppe.
Q And is that the only time and place, that you just mentioned?
A It was at the beginning of the campaign.
Q What month?
A It must have been June or July.
Q Is that the only time and place. Is that the only time and place?
A That is the only occasion when I could observe directly that the Administrative Services were also stationed near the Einstzgruppe.
Q From what you could observe then, did you learn of any other times and places where you were near the Einsatzgruppe?
A Perhaps at Lemberg, or I could name the locality of the FoodOffice at Kirowograd but perhaps this was too far, because then I was in between Kirowograd and Lasowatka, so we can easily talk about distances of one-hundred and fifty kilometers.
Q When, Witness, were you at Kirowograd?
A The Einsatz Kommando 6, which has been discussed very much, and its activity was discussed, must have been at Kirowograd in the month of August, or early in September. In the middle of September it certainly must have gone on to Dnzjepropetrowsk, because members of Einsatz commando told me that a short time after the struggle for the bridgehead at Dnzjepropetrowsk, they had gone to the village.
THE PRESIDENT: During recess this witness may be removed, and the next witness brought to the witness stand. The Court is in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
ARNOLD SAUER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. What is your name?
A. Arnold Sauer.
Q. Where were you born, and when?
A. 12 November 1919 in Aschaffenburg.
Q. In what province is that?
A. In Frankonia on Main.
Q. Where did you go to school, and for how long?
A. I went to school in Aschaffenburg; for two years I went to secondary school and for six years I went to Peoples School.
Q. Did you belong to the Hitler Youth?
A. yes, I did.
Q. When did you join?
A. In April 1933.
Q. Were you in the Allgemeine-SS?
A. I was transferred to the Allgemeine-SS in April 1938.
Q. From the Hitler Youth?
A. Yes, from the Hitler Youth.
Q. From the Allgemeine-SS were you transferred into the WaffenSS?
A. In 1939, in the spring, I went to the labor service and on 1 October 1939 I went to the Waffen-SS.
Q. To what unit of the Waffen-SS were you first attached?
A. SS-Standarte Germania in Hamburg, Langenhorn.
Q. How long did you stay with this regiment?
A. I remained there until the spring of 1940, and then I was transferred to the field regiment Germania.
Q. Was it in combat in the West?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you remain with the regiment there?
A. No, I did not remain there; after the Western campaign we were with the occupying force in Holland and then on 1 December 1940 we were transferred to the area of Odelsheim, between Dachau and Augsburg, in order to form the Wiking Division.
Q. When was the Wiking Division, actually activated?
A. Two regiments existed already. They were being formed one regiment near Vienna, and then the regiment Germania had its NCO officers taken away for other regiments.
Q. In what branch of the service were you put?
A. From the infantry regiment of Germania, 5th Company, I was transferred to the administrative service in Dachau.
Q. Who was the commanding officer of your outfit there?
A. In the administrative services?
Q. Yes.
A. Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher.
Q. Who was the Verwaltungsintendant of the division?
A. Fanslau.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Translate it. What is that?
MR. FULKERSEN: The administrative officer. It is on that little diagram.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkersen) Did you receive your training, did your outfit receive its training there at Dachau?
A. Well, I was trained during my time in the Infantry Regiment.
In Dachau I was an instructor with the unit.
Q. As part of your training were you given an indoctrination course?
A. Do you mean of an infantry nature, or within the administrative services?
Q. Within the administrative services.
A. Yes, we were given infantry training and political lectures and things like that. All the things which usually belong to the Waffen-SS.
THE PRESIDENT: We didn't get the idea. He told about the formation of the division, but he didn't tell us when it was.
Q.(By Mr. Fulkerson) When was the division formed at Dachau; or rather, when was --
A. On 22 February 1940 I went to Dachau.
Q. An outfit was already in being at the time you got there?
A. When I arrived in Dachau the administrative services existed, at least some of them. New men kept joining us all the time because we were short of men, the whole of the administrative services had not yet been formed because of lack of personnel.
Q. Over what period of time did this indoctrination course take place?
A. In the period of time when I joined until the end of April; from the middle of February to the end of April in Dachau.
Q. Where were you transferred from Dachau?
A. From Dachau we were transferred to the neighborhood of Heuberg, which was a troop training field.
Q. Were these indoctrination lectures continued there?
A. There we were being trained as infantry men on the troop training ground, combat service, and so forth, and also political lectures and so on. Yes.
Q. What were some of the subjects that were discussed in these political lectures?
A. In these political lectures they discussed the Jewish question, racial theories, and problem of marriage of SS men and similar things.
Q. Was the Jewish question mentioned?
A. Yes, the Jewish question was discussed on some occasions.
Q. And the world outlook of the SS generally?
A. Yes.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
What were your instructions about the Jewish question?
A. Well, for instance, that the Jews were a foreign body within the community of the German people.
Q. What was the solution of the Jewish question that was suggested?
A. The solution of the Jewish question was to be that the Jews should disappear from Germany, either go to foreign countries, should permanently settle in other countries, or goto concentration camps and places like that.
Q. Who gave these lectures?
A. These lectures were given by Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher himself in some cases, or by the company chiefs in other cases.
Q. How many times do you estimate that Tschentscher gave lectures to you?
A. In Dachau and Heuberg together a total of five or six times, as far as I can remember.
Q. Did Tschentscher sometimes speak on military subjects -and sometimes on political subjects, or did he confine himself to one?
A. No, he spoke both on military subjects -- the training of infantry men and so forth, as well as on political matters.
Q. On which of the subjects did he seem better informed?
A. In political fields no doubt Tschentscher was much better informed.
Q. You mean he was not well informed about military tactics and so forth?
A. No, he was not very well informed about these things. When I came there from an infantry unit I knew quite a bit, and we frequently discussed this fact among the NCO's and the instructors that Tschentscher is not very well informed about these things.
Q. What was your rank at this time?
A. I was a sturmmann.
Q. From Heuberg where was this division moved?
A. On the first day of the Whitsun holiday we went to Breslau by rail, to the vicinity of Breslau.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I did not yet get the date of the activation of the division. You put that question but I don't recall an answer to it.
Q.(By Mr. Fulkersen) When was the division activated; when was the supply troop activated?
A. when the troop division was transferred from Heuberg to Breslau you mean?
Q. No, I mean ---- when was the Wiking Division first activated, that is to say, when were men first gathered together?
A. The division was formed in 1940, after the campaign in the West in the area of Munich and in the area of Vienna. The regiment Westland was established in the neighborhood of Vienna, and the flag regiment was established in the neighborhood of Munich.
Q. Those were both combat regiments though?
A. They were both combat units, yes.
Q. When was the supply services of the services activated?
A. The supply units were taken over --- when I came to Dachau this administrative unit already existed.
Q. Excuse me -- on what date -
A. On the 22nd of February 1940. I am sorry, I have to correct myself. 1941.
MR. FULKERSEN: Is that specific enough, your Honors?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, yes, that gives me what I wanted.
Q. Now, in Breslau, what happened?
A. We were stationed in Breslau, 25 kilometers outside of Breslau at a place called Rohr. We simply did guard duty. We didn't do very much in Breslau. We were not being trained in Breslau.
Q. Were you given any more of these indoctrination lectures there?
A. I can't remember that. We were given political lectures there.
Q. When did the division first go into combat?
A. Approximately by the middle of June--perhaps on the 16th or 17th of June, we left Breslau and went to the area of Lublin, in Poland.
Q. And there the combat regiments were engaged with the Red Army for the first time?
A. No, not in Lublin. Lublin itself was part of Poland. There we were stationed until about the 24th of June without doing anything.
Q. Then what route did you follow from there? Give us the names of these places as well as you can, and the approximate dates up to, say, December of that year.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Did anything happen during this period?
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir; this is the period that the witness Otto was discussing, you see.
Q. Did you understand the question? I just wanted you to name the towns, the principle towns that the division passed through after it left Lublin up until about December of 1941. Give the Court an idea of what the course of the division was.
A. Do you mean the direction in which the division marched?
Q. That is right, the direction in which the supply troops went; the towns they went through.
A. We went from Lublin to Zclozow. The other places in between I did not remember.
Q. All right then; from Zclozow where did you go?
A. From Zclozow we went to Tarnopol.
Q. When did you get to Tarnopol?
A. We arrived at Tarnopol on the 15th or 16th of July, the middle of July.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. We stayed there for about -- until about the end of July.
Q. Now, I should ask you first in which company of the supply services were you attached?
A. In the Third Company of the Supply services.
Q. And what was the function of that company?
A. The function of that company was to produce sausage and meat for the Wiking Division.
A. That was the Butchers' Company then?
A. Yes, it was the Butchers' Company.
Q. And the towns that you are naming are those in which the Butchers' Company was located, is that right?
A. The next villages, you mean?
A. No, I mean the towns you have already named are towns in which the Butchers' Company was stationed?
A. Yes; in Zclozow we were there for the first time, but we didn't do any work; we were merely in billets for a night, but we did work in Tarnopol.
Q. All right, and how long did you say you stayed in Tarnopol?
A. We stayed there until the end of July, roughtly the 28th or 29th of July, perhaps. It might have been two days earlier, perhaps, in Tarnopol.
Q. And from Tarnopol where did you go?
A. From Tarnopol we went to Shitomir.
Q. And when did you arrive there?
A. We arrived on the last day, on the day before the last in Shitomir.
Q. How long did you stay there?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Is that all very important? Really vital?
MR. FULKERSON: Sir, if I don't fix the dates when they were in those places--there again perhaps I am anticipating too much, but I know that we will have to go through it later, so I thought I will have him say it now.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Something is happening in each of these towns?
MR. FULKERSON: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I beg your pardon.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. And did you say how long you stayed in Shitomir?
A. We remained in Shitomir about ten or twelve days.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. From there we went to Byelayar-Tserkow.
Q. And you were there how long?
A. In Byelaya-Tserkow we remained until the middle of August.
Q. From Byelaya-Tserkow did you go to Fidji Gorkiy?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And when did you arrive there?
A. We drove on for about two days, and we arrived there in the middle of August. It was extremely hot, I remember.
Q. Can you give us a rough idea of where Fidji Gorkiy is?
A. Fidji Gorkiy was situated on a mountain; outside the village there was a lake.
Q. No, I don't mean the topographical description; I mean near what towns.
A. I am afraid, unfortunately, I can't tell you that. If I could see a map, I could perhaps tell you, but I can't tell you what town there was in the neighborhood of Fidji Gorkiy.
Q. Well, for example, was it between Dirma Kerka and Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. Yes, it was situated in that area.
Q. All right, was it north or south of the Knjepr river?
A. It was southwest of Dnjepropetrowsk.
Q. And when did you finally arrive at Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. We were stationed near Dnjepropetrowsk at the beginning of September, at a distance of about 100 kilometers, on an estate called Losowatka.
Q. All right. Now, so much for the itinerary. Now, let us go back to Czlozow.
When you arrive in Czlozow, did you see any unusual things happening so far as the relations between the German Army and the civilian population was concerned?
A. Yes, we saw that Jews were being herded together, and driven up to the citadel of Czlozow.
Q. Where were these Jews being collected?
A. The Jews were dragged out from houses and had to go through the main street up to the citadel.
Q. What sort of treatment were they being given as they were being collected, if you know?
A. What treatment these Jews were given, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. They were driven on; they were beaten because civilians had heard that the members of their families were up on the citadel in a mass grave. The civilians were so indignant about that the Jews were being tortured because civilians had been told that Jewish commissars, people like that, had been participating in the murders.
Q. Were any signs of this roundup still in the town when you went into it?
A. Yes, some were still lying around in the street who could no longer walk, they had been beaten so much. They were dead.
Q. You mean there were corpses of dead Jews still lying in the street of Zclozow when you got there?
A. Yes, there were dead Jews lying about in the main street.
Q. Who had collected these Jews there?
A. This collecting was done by the Wehrmacht, the civilians, the SS took part.
When we entered the city we saw that these people were being driven up to the citadel.
Q. Was there Einsatzgruppe or Einsatzkommando in the neighborhood?
A. No, no Einsatzgruppe or Einsatzkommando was in the vicinity of that town.
Q. You described this mass grave on the citadel. Did you go up there?
A. Yes, I saw the mass grave behind the citadel, about five hundred meters behind it. We took up our billets there and we were told that there was a mass grave on the citadel of murdered Ukrainians. We went there and looked at the mass grave, and there we saw Jews as they were digging up these corpses.
Q. And were there members of the Army and the SS there, guarding the Jews, who were doing this job?
A. The Field Police was there--not the Field Police of the SS but the Field Police of the Army.
Q. Who was supervising the operation?
A. The Field Police supervised the work.
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honor please, if you are curious I will go into the question of why they were opening the mass grave, but as I see it, it has nothing to do with this law suit.
THE PRESIDENT: No this is not necessary.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. All right, now in Tarnopol, did you see any sign of mistreatment of Jews, any signs that the civilian population generally was being gathered up in the way you described?
A. No, I did not see that in Tarnopol.
Q. You say no signs?
A. No, not in Tarnopol.
Q. Well, where was the first place that you saw signs of such things again?
A. That was in Shitomir.
Q. All right, describe what you saw in Shitomir.
A. With the bakery company in Shitomir there were Jews employed; Jews were brought along on trucks. They had to carry water, bags of flour, take the bread out of the ovens. And there we had, the case of Oberscharfuehrer Suerth.
Q. Well, describe this incident that you mentioned.
A. I saw that incident myself. Oberscharfuehrer Suerth, in the presence of several members of the Wehrmacht and SS, shot down six Jews with his Tommy-gun.
Q. Now, which outfit was this Oberscharfuehrer Suerth in?
A. In the Bakery Company.
Q. The Bakery Company of the Supply Services of the Wiking Division?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how did Suerth happen to shoot these Jews?
A. I don't know that myself. I saw people standing around, a large circle of people in a barn. I went there. Iwo Jews were already lying in a grave, and I saw how Oberscharfuehrer Suerth shot the other four with his Tommy-gun. Why, I don't know.
Q. Did they give him any provocation?
A. So far as I could see, no.
Q. How you say that in Shitomir the bakers company was using Jews to do the work?
A. Yes, they were working.
Q. Did the Butchers' Company ever do the same thing? Did they ever round up Jews and-
A. No, we in our company did not employ Jews. We had enough men, and our detachment was not so large, so we did not employ Jews.
Q. Did it ever come to your attention, or did you ever hear that the defendant Tschentscher here was personally guilty of atrocities against Jews; and if you did hear, describe what you heard and the source
A. When we reached Byelaya-Tserkow we came one day, after the first company to Byelaya-Tserkow. We were told there that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher had used a pistol to shoot at a Jew.
Q. And who told you this?
A. The members of that company that was stationed there.
Q. Was it generally talked about?
A. Well, that was passed on very quickly.
Q. Do you think that it is possible that a man could have been in that company without hearing that story?
A. That is entirely impossible. Everybody talked about it in the company very quickly after the event, and in my opinion everyone in the company must have known about it.
Q. Do you remember any of the details about this shooting as you heard it?
A. All I heard was that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher had shot at this Jew, and that Stamminger, a member of the First Company, who was in his supply truck, jumped out because he thought the bullet might hit him, perhaps. Then Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was shooting at this Jew.
Q. Oh, you mean that Stamminger was in a truck, and that the truck was struck by one of the bullets?
A. Stamminger was in his supply truck, yes, and he jumped out of it because he thought that perhaps somebody was shooting at him because, as I was told, this was the direction of the shooting.
Q. The old story of the innocent bystander. Now, did you know an SS-man named Kirsch?
A. Yes, he was a comrade of mine, a very good friend of mine.
Q. Did he ever mention to you a certain meeting that he had with Tschentscher at Fjidarky?
A. Yes.
A. What was that? What did he tell you?
A. SS-man Kirsch had to report to Tschentscher and was to kill the Jew by shooting. SS-man Kirsch refused--he told me this himself -- and he was told that if he did not carry out this order he would be shot for insubordination.