Q. Just how far was that from Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. Well, that was 50 kilometres away.
Q. Please tell us how your meeting with Tschentscher in that area came about.
A. Early in December, when I went to Dnjepropetrowsk, I was given a lift by a vehicle which just stopped in the road.
Q. Where were you taken? To Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that precisely?
A. That was early in December. Then we stopped at the Eastern Bridge, because the Eastern Bridge could only handle one-way traffic; that is to say, the traffic which came out of Dnjepropetrowsk across the bridge had to wait until the traffic going in the other direction had passed. There I noticed that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was running along the vehicles.
Q. What vehicles?
A. The vehicles which waited there so that they could pass over the Eastern Bridge.
Q. Did you see Tschentscher already before the incident which you have described yesterday?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. That wasn't expressed yesterday.
A. Nobody asked me about it.
Q. Please tell us about this meeting.
A. Then the convoy, consisting of Wehrmacht vehicles, SS vehicles, and also vehicles from the organization Todt, rolled across the Eastern Bridge and when we were located on the side of Dnjepropetrowsk we heard the shooting going on. We then left our vehicles so that we could find out where the shooting was going on.
Q. Who was, "we"?
A. That was the driver who took me along and myself.
Q. And he also left the vehicle?
A. Yes, of course. We locked up the vehicle and we went to find out just where this shooting was going on and then we finally came to one Sports Place.
Q. I would like to know the following from you: Just what task did Tschentscher fulfill when he walked along the convoy of cars?
A. No task at all. I assume that since it was so cold, he wanted to get warm by running around.
Q. Did Tschentscher have his own vehicle?
A. He was accompanied, I believe, by his driver, or his adjutant, that was Sturmmann Krauss.
Q. And then he was standing before the bridge?
A. Yes, he was before the bridge at Dnjeoro-Armor.
Q. How long did he stay there?
A. Well, that depends. We had to wait for twenty minutes. Then it defended on now long the traffic rolled across the bridge until the traffic going in the other direction could pass.
Q. How long were you able to observe Tschentscher on this occasion?
A. I only saw him walk by. I didn't directly observe him and I only saw that Tschentscher was here and then I sat back in the vehicle, because I was of the opinion that Tschentscher was here and then I sat back in the vehicle, because I was of the opinion that Tschentscher might perhaps ask me just what I was doing there.
Q: And then you passed the bridge?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you heard shooting going on?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: Was Tschentscher behind you vehicle or in front vehicle?
A: He was in front of my vehicle.
Q: He passed the bridge before you?
A: Yes, he passed the bridge before we did.
Q: Go on.
A: When we came to this big sports field, which used to be the sports field of Dnjepropetrowsk before the war, a large crowd of people were standing there and these people were surrounded by policemen. I had heard in Dnjepropetrowsk that these men belonged to the Guard Detachment of the SD Detachment No. 6, Einsatzkommando 6. These surrounded people were Jews. There was no difference between their age and their sex.
Q: And how were you able to observe Tschentscher here?
A: I myself observed Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher there amongst the spectators.
Q: Just how far were you away from him?
A: I can't tell you thay precisely. However, Tschentscher, because of his size could be easily recognized amongst the crowd.
Q: I would like to know how far away you were from him for a completely different reason.
A: It could certainly not have been more than twenty metres.
Q: And did you dare to approach Tschentscher so closely in view of the fact that you were absent without leave at the time?
A: I was not afraid of being recognized amongst the crowd of people, however, because there were other SS men from the Einsatzkommando 6 from the SD.
Q: Do you know that Tschenter's driver was called Mahnke and his name was not Krauss?
A: Yes, that is correct. The driver's name was Mahnke. He drove him during the advance. However, Mahnke, when he returned in February, 1942, was not with Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher any more, but he was with the unit at Posilikowo and his place was taken by Sturmmann Krauss.
Q: Witness, during December, 1941 -
A: Yes, of course, the man did not leave the convoy -
Q: Just let me ask the questions. Do you know that Mahnke was still with the unit in December?
A: When I returned we talked in detail of all these things and I asked him what route he had taken. Mahnke never left the convoy with this vehicle, so I want to emphasize that in particular, because this vehicle must be in order at all times, because it was the vehicle of the Commanding Officer.
Q: Do you know where the units of the Administrative Battalion were located?
A: No.
Q: Was it possible that they may have been on the Sea of Asow?
A: I don't understand you now.
Q: Was it possible that the battalion was stationed at the Sea of Asow?
A: Yes, that may be correct. The Sea of Asow was discussed. Whether they were actually there at the time is something I do not know.
Q: Weren't you surprised when accidently in this area where the units were far removed, you were suddenly confronted by Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher?
A: Well, this -
Q: Just let me finish my question -- and that you saw him under the same conditions againsas you have described it to us with regard to other places?
A: I assumed that he was going back on leave.
Q: And when was this?
A: That was early in December, 1941.
Q: Do you know, Witness, that Tschentscher on the 1st of December, 1941, began his duty with the WVHA?
A: I only know -
Q: Just let me finish my question - and do you know that already on the 21st of November he had begun his return trip by airplane from the front to the Homeland?
A: First of all, I would like to emphasize that I can support myself on the fact with regard to the date that snow was falling at the time and there was a lot of snow and that in the middle of November it was not so cold in Russia, but, rather, late in November and early December, and I should like to emphasize that Standartenfuehrer or Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was located with his vehicle and I would like to know just where Tschentscher should have left by plane, whether he left from Dnjepropetrowsk or from Berditschew.
Q: please tell us just how Tschentscher interfered and that alleged execution.
A: I saw that Tschentscher left the circle of spectators and then he approached an SD man who had participated before in the execution of the Jews and in the excesses and I saw that Tschentscher asked him for his pistol. I don't know why he did that, but Tschentscher was wearing a driver's overcoat.
Well, that was done, because it was very cold there.
Q: Did you see that Tschentscher himself was not wearing a pistol?
A: I did not see Tschentscher wearing a pistol belt and I was unable to see any pistol holster on him.
Q: What reason do you assume did Tschentscher have for not using his own pistol?
A: Because he probably was not carrying it on him.
Q: You don't think that he carried it?
A: Yes.
Q: And the SD man, he just gave his pistol away without saying anything about it?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were not surprised about the fact that you could be in the vicinity of the big city of Dnjepropetrowsk and suddenly here you met Tschentscher again?
A: I don't know why I should be surprised. I have already answered the question that I assumed that Tschentscher wass going to leave.
Q: Herr Otto, during the noon recess did you speak with anybody about the question of the receipt of your Army pay and your receipt of food rations, and did you discuss the matter of the pay book with anybody?
A: I told the prosecution immediately that your question was completely incorrect and that in this afternoon's session early at the beginning I would try to explain the matter in detail, because the prosecution could not have any information about conditions which prevailed in the German Soutnern Army at the time.
Q: Just answer my question, please. You talked about this matter to a member of the prosecution during the noon recess?
A: I told them -
Q: Just answer my question.
A: I did not discuss the matter with them, but I only said that I would refer to it after the noon recess.
Q: Do you know, Witness, how big the city of Dnjepropetrowsk is?
A: In peace time it may have had approximately 500,000 inhabitants. That is in my estimation.
Q: Witness, you have told us yesterday that an order was issued to the effect that the troops could not leave their bivouac area?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes. At the beginning of the time we left Silesia, that was actually when we were standing at Rokow.
Q. From the fact that some members of the SS left that bivouac area, you have concluded that this had the approval of the commander or the commanding officer? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Wouldn't it be much more logical to say that if the higher offices had tolerated the fact that people left the bivouac, then there would not have been any reason to prohibit leaving the area by an order?
A. I don't know what motives the divisional commanders had. None of the divisional commanders told me of their motives.
Q. Herr Otto, I am convinced of the fact that none of the commanding officers of the division told you about it. However, I should like to know whether your conclusion is not quite illogical and to what extent. Under what name was the procedure because of suspicion of murder carried out against you by the prosecution at Augaburg?
Under what name?
A. Under the name of Johann Torsten alias Guenther Otto.
Q. I'm not interested in your alias. It was Guenther Otto?
A. I said the criminal police agency --
Q. Just answer my question, Witness.
A. I have answered it.
Q. Under what name was the trial because of suspicion of murder carried out by the prosecution against you at Augsburg?
A. Under the name of Johann Torsten.
Q. Very well. Why didn't you give your name of Otto there?
A. Because at the time when I was arrested in Hausham on the 8th of October I was not arrested by the criminal police agency as Guenther Otto but was arrested because of a denunciation by a former SS guard at the camp of Dachau. He called me Johann Torsten; and consequently I did not describe myself as Guenther Otto. The criminal police at Miesbach described me and called me Johann Torsten.
Q. Witness, if the physician from the insane asylum at Eglfing Harr should appear here and if he were to testify about the diagnosis which has resulted from the observation of you there, would you relieve this doctor of his obligation of secrecy?
A. Yes, naturally; and at the same time I would request that some patients from the observation ward should also be taken along here and that they should also be cross examined by the prosecution.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I do not have any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination by other defense counsel? Any redirect?
MR. FULKERSEN: These little artistic efforts of mine seem to have been of some value in clearing up this testimony, so I've made another one.
THE PRESIDENT: Nothing succeeds like success.
MR. FULKERSEN: I have here what purports to be an organizational chart of the supply services of the Wiking Division. I'd like for the witness to examine it, see if he thinks it is correct, and then give it to your Honors.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Witness, now I'm going to give you this chart, and I want you to look at it and examine it to see if you think it is correct to the best of your knowledge. Have you looked at it?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct as far as you know?
A. I can't hear the translation. Now I can understand you.
Q. You say you have examined the chart?
A. The chart is correct.
Q. And it does represent the position that Tschentscher held in the battalion so far as you know?
A. I can't hear the translation. It seems to be very far away.
It's very soft. Yes, I can hear you loud and clear now. The answer to the question is yes.
Q. It's your impression, is it, that Tschentscher was the battalion's commander?
A. Yes.
MR. FULKERSEN: I think there's some question here about the accuracy of the chart, so if Dr. Krauss would like to ask him some questions? All right, later.
DR. KRAUSS: I beg your pardon, your Honor, may I now submit my misgivings about this sketch, or shall I do it after the prosecution has finished?
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that you don't think it is correct?
DR. DRAUSS: The sketch is not correct, your Honor. It is wrong.
THE PRESIDENT: You may ask the witness about it now.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q. Witness, who was the chief of the butchers company there?
A. I didn't understand your question.
Q. Who was the chief of the butchers' company?
A. The platoon leader of the butchers' platoon was Untersturmfuehrer Kochaladi.
Q. Who was the chief of the baker's company?
A. That was Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel.
Q. Who was the chief of the supply office?
A. That was Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher as a sideline and then the commander of the entire agency.
Q. Herr Otto, was Tschentscher the commanding officer of the supply battalion?
A. Yes.
Q. What was Fanslau's position?
A. He was the divisional administrative officer.
Q. Has he been at the same time commander of the supply battalion, which is the case in each division.
A. As far as I know, at the parade Square at Dachau and later on at the Heuberg when the administrative services were assembled, Sturmbannfuehrer Fanslau was not reported to. However, the senior officer of the entire administrative service there reported to Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, in order to explain the matter to the Tribunal, I want to state that it is undisputed that Fanslau was the divisional administrative officer and at the same time he was the commanding officer of the administrative battalion, as this is done in all divisions; and Tschentscher, as chief of the supply office, deputized for him. Here when Tschentscher is called the battalion commander it is completely wrong in this connection. Because the witness is now an expert in this field and because he cannot be an expert in this field, I shall not ask any further questions of the witness. However, I object to the sketch which was made being used for any purpose since the person apparently did not have any expert knowledge and I believe that it should not be used.
A. In connection with this I want to say that Tschentscher was considered to be the commanding officer of the supply unit and that he is being considered that today, too, even by the witnesses Jackl, Mueller, Beirer.
MR. FULKERSEN: Would it clear up the difficulty which Dr. Krauss raises if Tschentscher were called simply the highest ranking senior officer in the battalion? It seems to me that we are quibbling about nomenclature here and that this is a distinction without a difference.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, the difficulty can be removed very easily. Tschentscher was the senior officer of the three company chiefs and with that he was a deputy of the battalion commander Fanslau. This description alone is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, let it go at that. There is so little difference that we are not interested.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Witness, you testified yesterday that you had been arrested on suspicion of murder. Where and when was this murder supposed to have been committed?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Counsel, the man was never convicted; was never indicted, and I wouldn't try that murder case as a sideline here if I were you.
MR. FULKERSEN: All right, sir. Don't answer the question, witness. I withdraw it.
Q. Now, you testified that some of the men who were involved in this massacre at Dnjepropetrowsk were members of Einsatzkommando 6. Was this the first conduct that you had with the Einsatzkommando in Russia?
A. That was the first personal contact which I had with these Einsatzkommandos and with this particular Kommando.
Q. Well, as you had moved on through Russia before you got to Dnjepropetrowsk, had you heard about the presence of Einsatzgruppen or Einsatzkommando in the vicinity behing you or where you were?
A. Of Einsatzkommando 6 and its activities I had already heard with regard to the city of Kirowograd.
Q. And it was at Kirowograd that you heard of the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommando first?
A. I heard about the activities of the Einsatzkommando 6 when I was at Kirowograd. What I heard was with just what measures Einsatz6 dealt in Kirowograd.
Q. Witness, do you know what the relationship between your own outfit and the Einsatzgruppen was so far as their appearance at a certain place and time was concerned?
A. A regular contact between the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommando of the SA and Waffen SS and the SS Division "Wiking" did not directly exist. However, guard detachments from the individual companies of the Wiking Division and other divisions were organized, and they were furnished for service with these Einsatzgruppen.
Q. Now, you were asked this morning what you would say if Mueller, Jackl, and Schaefer came into the courtroom and testified on certain things. You know all those men, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. They were in your outfit in the Wiking Division?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have reason to believe that they personally have witnessed some of the scenes that you have described here on the witness stand?
A. I do not only have the impression that they had seen such orders and the execution of these orders, but I am quite certain that they know something about it.
Q. Well, you were in the interrogation here in this courthouse together with them, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. They didn't know anything about it then, did they?
A. I don't understand you just now. They didn't know anything about it at the time, and they excused themselves from the fact that they could not refresh their memories; that they could not recall the matter, on the ground that they were overburdened with work when they were with the butchers' platoon. When my first trial took place, the witness Jackl was there as one of the guards; and he couldn't even remember that incident.
Q. So that if the memories of these witnesses, Mueller, Jackl, and Schaefer, don't improve considerably since the last time you have seen them, it's your opinion that their memories are not very reliable?
A. I would state it in that way, and I should like to prove that these people could not have been overburdened with work because they had time twice twenty-four hours that means from one shift to another. They were only incharge of the billets.
Q. All right. Now, while you say that these people saw some of these things, what did Mueller see? What did Mueller Know about it?
A. Mueller first of all must know something about this order since he was the first sergeant of a platoon.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I want to object to the question as to what Mueller knew of the happenings because this witness cannot confirm to us just what knowledge Mueller had about the happenings.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right; but this witness can state whether Mueller was there and whether he was in a position to see.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I don't have any objection to this form of the question as it is asked now; but in the way the question was asked first, it is not admissible.
THE PRESIDENT: You are quite right about it.
MR. FULKERSEN: All right.
Q. Then, Witness, describe the incidents where Mueller was present.
A. I don't think that Mueller was directly present when the incidents took place at Zclozow. However, as far as I could see, when we passed by there slowly, he turned around because near there was the site where the Ukrainians had allegedly been shot by the Red Army and the Jews had to dig them out. Mueller turned away when he saw that.
Q. In other words, Mueller was present when --
A. Mueller must have known that these Ukrainians were being dug up again by Jews.
Q. At what other times was Mueller present when such incidents as this took place?
A. That would have been, for example, the case of Tarnopol when in the morning in question I turned over the cattle to the slaughterhouse. Mueller was standing there; and consequently he also had to see that the Jews had to work under sadistic excesses and torture on the part of men in the butchers' platoon, when they had to clean the slaughterhouse.
Q. All right. Now, what did Jackl know? At what time was Jackl present when such things occurred?
A. All the butchers and in particular the foreman of the butchers were present when the cattle were unloaded. They saw the incidents that took place there. In spite of the fact that I tried to refresh his memory by giving a detailed description, Jackl couldn't remember anything during the interrogation. He was even on the vehicle, on my vehicle, when, these cattle were unloaded. Therefore, I would like to claim that Jackl, if he does not have a bad memory, intentionally does not want to recall things of that kind and such activities on the part of the butchers' platoon because perhaps he still is disgusted about it even today.
Q. Now, were there any other incidents that Jackl must have known about by reason of his having been there and seen them?
A. The stories that were told by the butchers' company must have gone a long way, and everybody must have known about it. If one or two persons can recall it today, then the others must have known it at the time, and they must be able to recall it today also.
Q. What about Schaefer? What incidents must he have known about by reason of his having been there and seen them?
A. Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer was located at Zclozow when Tschentscher set fire to the synagogue; and then he was there on the following day. On the following morning he must have heard about the execution of three Jews.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I ask permission to determine whether the witness is using a note upon which the answers he is now giving to us are written down and whether he is just reading from that note. I don't think that such a procedure is appropriate.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, all the defendants have gone to the witness stand loaded with notes.
You can ask him about it as soon as the prosecution is finished. Ask him what he has in his hand.
MR. FULKERSEN: He can go over there now, if he'd like to, if your Honor please. He must be prescient if he has any notes.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you like to go and look, Dr. Krauss? You may go look and see what he has, if you wish.
BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Witness, what are those papers that you have in your hand?
A. Last night on the basis of the claim by the defense counsel Krauss I worked on this in order to give a rebuttal to his claims.
Q. On what?
A. It is also clearly shown by my affidavit for the prosecution what I said at the time; and I am preparing myself also so that there will not be any delay in the trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Good. You see, this witness has no documents, so he has to have some papers of his own. Are you satisfied with what you saw, Dr. Krauss?
DR. KRAUSS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
BY MR FULKERSON:
Q What is the subject matter of those notes?
THE PRESIDENT: We don't care about that.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now continue with your description of what Schaefer saw, and what he has known about it?
A On the following morning Schaefer must have seen how the three Jews were shot.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: Dr. Stackelberg for the defendant Fanslau. Your Honor, I object to the form of this answer, "He must have known."
THE PRESIDENT: We understand. What did Schaefer see. What did he observe or hear?
A If now on the day before the excess against the three Jews, this announcement of Weckerle's death had not taken place, Senn and Schmidbauer would have to have been placed before a court martial, and since this did not happen, it now becomes evident that an official persmission for excesses against Jews existed and that never a chief of staff was to read such an announcement, but the commanding officer or officers were to read that order to the people, and that were Tschentscher and Fanslau.
Q But you say that the last time that you heard these people questioned about these incidents, they had completely forgotten them all?
A These incidents were talked about for a long period of time, and I say that I doubt very much about the extremely bad ability of the witnesses Jackl, Mueller and Schaefer to recollect these things.
Q Now this morning in the course of Dr. Krauss' cross-examination, I was rather confused by the questioning.
Did I understand your testimony formerly to have been that the incident you described in which Tschentscher shot the Jews happened where? Where was the place where this incident took place, where Techentscher shot a Jew?
A That was in Byclaya-Tsorkow.
Q Where was that that Tschentscher pulled his pistol out and threatened SS man Kirch?
A It was Byclaya-Tserkow.
Q How far apart were those two towns?
A When a person has reported to the commanding officer-
Q No, No. I mean how far apart are the places Byelaya and Tserkow?
A Oh, I see. I cannot give you the exact number of kilometers it is from each town.
Q They are some distant apart, are they not?
A Yes.
Q And these are two different distinct incidents?
A Yes.
Q Now, witness, just in conclusion, there is a stock question that seems to be used here, and I put it to you just to see what happens. Did you have the impression while you were in the SS that you belonged to a criminal organization?
A From the very beginning I had the impression that I belonged to a criminal organization, and when I had my last leave from the Wehrmacht I told that to my mother. Once she told me after my confession 'if it is found out that you try to desert, then you will be sent to a concentration camp, or you will be sent to an educational center, or you might be sent to the SS. Then I would commit insubordination, that is what I replied my mother.
In May 1941 at the Heuberg, Untersturmfuehrer Kochaldi declared my being unable to join the Waffen-SS because on Sunday-noon I did not turn up when orders were given out; he and the Stabsscharfuehrer then assumed that I did this because I was hurt about the death of my mother.
Q What is your impression of the general character and moral standing of the officers and men of the SS?
A In this connection I would like to refer to the statistics of the Punitive Camp, and these statistics took place at Dachau. In regard to the non-commissioned officers and the men -
DR. STACKELBERG: Your Honor, I object to this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. von Stackelberg, you are better late than never. Your objection is even good now.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: Is it sustained, Your Honor?
THY PRESIDENT: Yes, "cum laude".
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, I would like to ask a question in regard to the court martial proceedings, wherein I understand that you were acquitted on the charge of desertion, or on another item, and you were finally convicted because you had resisted conscription in the first instance, is that correct?
A From the evidence I carry with me, and from certificates which I carry, and from witness testimony, and, especially, from the testimony of the SS-man who was present, that I shot myself in the hand, it became evident -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now, just a minute. There were three charges, self-inflicted wound, AWOL, and resisting conscription. You were exonerated on the first two charges, and convicted on the third, is that correct?