A.- When I saw the letters I deduced nothing at all. We simply had to registre them, first of all; give them a reference number, and see to it that those inmates would not go away. With the masses of letters which I saw I did not think too much about them. Only afterwards when the reports of fatalities came in, we said, "well, well, another case of "Special treatment."
Q.- Therefore, the "special treatment", about which you heard later, you, yourself brought in connection with these letters?
A.- Yes, that was my firm conviction.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness and bring the witness Otto to the stand.
Witness Sanner excused.)
GUNTHER OTTO - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued
DR. KRAUS (Counsel for defendant Tschentscher): May it please the Court, with the permission of the Court I wish to continue with the cross-examination.
BY DR. KRAUS:
Q.- Herr Otto, under what name did you stay in Wasserburg?
A.- Under my ordinary name.
Q.- When you were in Wasserburg, had you reported to the police in Wasserburg?
A.- Yes.
Q.- I put it to you, witness: that no registration with the police in Wasserburg exists of yours.
A.- I reported to the police in Wasserburg on the basis of my release and the certificate of release signed by an officer.
Q.- You maintain that you registered with the Wasserburg police under your own name of Otto?
A.- Yes, I did. I lived on Marienplatz, 8, with a family. I had my ration card there, and without registering with the police I would not have been given a food ration card at all.
Q.- The most important thing to me is, had you registered under the name of Otto?
A.- Yes, I reported under the name of Otto there.
Q.- Witness, what is your father's name? Is it the same one?
A.- My father is called Gustav Otto.
Q.- Witness, under what name were you in the Lunatic Asylum of Eggelfing-Haar?
A.- As a woman had denounced me, I was not arrested as Otto in Casserburg, but as somebody called Johann Torsten, alia Guenther Otto, and under that name I went to Eggelfing-Haar.
Q.- Under which name?
A.- Johann Torsten.
Q.- In the Lunatic Asylum of Eggelfing-Haar, were you told why you were under medical supervision?
A.- No.
Q.- Do you know, Herr Otto, what schizophrenia is?
A.- I do not know the term, no.
Q.- Herr Otto, have you registered with the police here?
A.- As long as I am living in the Witnesses House, I do not have to register with the police, I have been told.
Q.- Herr Otto, if Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer, or Main sergeant Mueller, or Jacke1 and others, would confirm before this Tribunal that Hauptsturmfuehrer Braunagel throughout the whole period of the advance which you have described was in Lublin in the hospital would you still maintain your description that Braunagel had shot at the Jews in the bomb crater?
A.- Yes; for the simple reason that when we went on from Lublin to Zamosk, I had coal on my vehicle and Braunagel ordered me in Zamosk to unload the coal because the bakery column could not use that type of coal for their baking -- the ovens would not work.
Q.- Where is Zamosk?
A.- It is south of Lublin, in the direction of Lemberg.
Q.- Is it before Zclozow or after Zclozow?
A.- Before Zclozow.
Q.- And in Zclozow Braunagel was still present?
A.- Yes.
Q.- I shall now come to the efents in Fyidorky. You told us, Herr Otto, that Unterscharfuehrer or Oberscharfuehrer Goesch -
A.- In Fyidorky?
Q.- Where was it that you told us about Unterscharfuehrer Goesch?
A.- I know Oberscharfuehrer Birk, Unterscharfuehrer Goesch is unknown to me.
Q.- You told us the story that Tschentscher had a member of his unit in front of him for insubordination, and threatened him with his pistol.
A.- That was not Unterscharfuehrer Goesch; that was an SS-man Otto Kirsch.
Q.- SS-man Otto Kirsch -- and where was that?
A.- In Fyidorky.
Q.- Will you please tell us on what occasion this incident occurred?
A.- Some cattle had run away from the butcher's column. Two were sent down to catch the cattle again. On that occasion they found a civilian whom they identified as a Jew, and brought him back with them. He was running through the village. He was carrying a bag, and he was probably walking somewhere. He wanted to go somewhere.
Q.- Where was he taken to?
A.- Into the camp.
Q.- What camp was that?
A.- The Supply Office camp; it was the camp of the Supply Office and the Butcher's Platoon.
Q.- Supply Office and Butcher's Platoon?
A.- Yes, both of them were in the same village.
Q.- And was Kirsch one of then who brought the Jew back?
A.- No, Kirsch was busy slaughtering. He was probably present when these people had fetched the oxen back.
Q.- Who brought the Jew back to the camp?
A.- I don't remember the names of those people. It might have been that it was Mueller, and somebody called Lach -- SS-men Mueller and Lach.
Q.- And what happened then?
A.- I assure that Kirsch was standing around the camp.
Q.- You said just now that Kirsch was not on the camp square.
A.- Of course he was on the camp square. You asked me whether Kirsch brought the Jew back, whether he was present, and I said no, he was not present.
Q.- Was the slaughtering done on the camp square?
A.- Not on the camp square itself, but in its neighborhood.
Q.- You said just now that Kirsch was busy slaughtering.
A.- I didn't say that because the SS-men who were busy slaughtering worked in shifts, and had every second twenty-four hours off.
Q.- Did you see the Jew yourself on the camp square?
A.- No.
Q.- You didn't see him?
A.- No, I didn't see the Jew myself because I was busy on my truck.
Q.- Did you yourself see or observe how Tschentscher got into contact with the Jew?
A.- No.
Q.- Do you know from your own observation what happened to the Jew?
A.- Not from my own observation.
Q.- How is it you know that the order to shoot this Jew came from the Orderly Room?
A.- Because Kirsch has told us that it came from the Orderly Room, and he had received the order from the Orderly Room to shoot down the Jew with the rifle.
Q.- Herr Otto, did you ever experience it that the Orderly Room of a company or so would give the order to shoot down a civilian, or something?
A.- No.
Q.- The whole incident in Fyidorky is based on hersay?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And from whom have you heard it?
A.- From Kirsch himself.
Q.- I shall now talk about something else, and that is the incident in Dnyepropetrovsk. Another chapter now.
Herr Otto, were the units of the administrative battalion over situated in Dnyepropetrovsk?
A.- No; they were not there, ever.
Q.- You, yourself, went to Dnyepropetrovsk absent without leave?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Will you tell us how you were brought into contact with the SD detachments there?
A.- I went from my vehicle which was about 50 Kms from Dnyepropetrovsk into the town on a number of occasions in order to get food on the basis of my pay book and also my pay.
Q.- Where did you obtain the pay for your pay book?
A.- At the proper place, the local commandant's office.
Q.- Herr Otto, did you, while AWOL, dare to get your money and your pay on your pay book?
A.- Most certainly. I had also a number of papers with me which showed that I was going to fetch my vehicle from there.
Q.- You said just now that you received your pay through your pay book?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you know that people who have gone AWOL -- all units of the army and SD and so forth are informed with photographs, with circulars, with all sorts of police methods, and that it was for you an enormous risk to go and get your pay with your pay book from a strange office?
A.- What I can tell you about that is that I could not be regarded as a man who was AWOL at the time. I was perfectly normally on the advance with Oberscharfuehrer Senn, and the VE Squadron. I simply had broken down with my vehicle, and Oberscharfuehrer Senn had given me the order to go on to the next farm, and I could tell you that in October, November, and December until my arrest,I couldn't officially be regarded as being AWOL at all.
Q.- Herr Otto, when you left the troops in Nowomoskowsk, you did not regard yourself as being AWOL?
A.- As far as I personally was concerned -- yes. But I was not officially. I did not simply go to the commandant's office and say, I want my pay book; I am a deserter.
Q.- Herr Otto, I put it to you that, according to the usages of any army -- not only the German army -- you do not get your food rations on your pay book?
A.- Why not?
Q.- Please let me finish my question first. If the Wehrmacht had travel orders, for instance, marching orders, just as here, and only on the basis of such papers would a stranger give you food.
A.- But I should like to tell you, Doctor, that you know very little about conditions in the advance through Russia. Conditions in the German army through the advance in Russia were very confused.
THE PRESIDENT: And now, recess until a quarter to two.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunals will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, August 20, 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
GUENTHER OTTO - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION - Continued.
DR. KRAUSS (Attorney for the Defendant Tschentscher): May it please the Tribunal, Your Honors, I now would like to continue my cross-examination of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: I request that the witness should explain to us the matters with regard to his pay book, with the permission of the defense counsel.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, in this direction I do not have any additional questions.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked him the question, "How he could possibly have got his pay and have his pay book when he was absent without leave. The witness wants to complete or explain his answer. He has a right to.
DR. KRAUSS: I do not object, Your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I want to say that the question of the defense counsel does not have any basis at all, because in the Fall of 1941 he was not informed about the condition of the German Army in the south of Russia.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I now do object to this answer, which I have just heard, by the witness. The witness cannot know as to whether I have any knowledge about the conditions of the Southern Army or not.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you can tell the defense counsel and the Tribunal what the conditions were in 1941 of the German Army in the Ukraine that you spoke about. Not too long now.
THE WITNESS: Otherwise you wouldn't have asked the question.
Because of the bad conditions of vehicles, particularly in the Viking Division, countless vehicles had left the convoy and this was the case especially during the advance. All these people did not receive any travel orders, but they did receive their pay and food with the Frontleitstellen. Furthermore, the Division Viking had a reputation, the Division Viking was known as being an undisciplined pig stay in the other headquarters and other army agencies. The officers of the SS companies thought that the Wehrmacht in any case would keep on sending their people back to the Viking Division. However, I would also like to state that with a typewriter and with a sheet of paper, any person could have written out his own orders in the German Wehrmacht. Furthermore, the paymasters at the local treasuries were authorized to pay out Army pay in this case. If the defense counsel had inquired about the conditions before, then he would have known before what I have just stated.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, is is not up to the witness to discuss my knowledge of the conditions.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand, That's right. Now go ahead to the next point, please.
BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q. Witness, what did you have to do with the SD in Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. I stayed there over night.
Q. You stayed with a unit of the SD?
A. Yes, that was in the building of the Einsatzkommando 6 of the SD.
Q. Who was the Commanding Officer of Einsatzkommando 6?
A. I wasn't able to find that out at the time, and I was not interested in finding out.
Q. Were your papers checked if you stayed over night?
A. To what extent?
Q. Was your pay book and were your orders checked?
A. First of all, I didn't go there regularly, by way of the orderly room, but I came there by members of the Guard Company of the SD Detachment. They just let me stay there in their room. Of course, it was natural that these people knew that I had my pay book, because otherwise I would not have dared to have stayed in the house of the SD, especially.
Q. Was your pay book checked?
A. No.
Q. Where was this detachment located?
A. Well, it was across the street from the General Commissioner's Office. I can't recall the name of the street.
Q. What General Commissioner's Office was that?
A. That was the General Commissioner's Office for the area of Dnjepropetrowsk.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Where? In the vicinity of Dnjepropetrowsk?
Q. No. In the SD Detachment.
A. Always only one night, when I received my food rations for going to Dnjepropetrowsk.
Q. You only stayed there one night and then you left again?
A. Yes, I went back -- I went back in my vehicle, or had myself taken back by other vehicles.
Q. Where did you stay during all this time?
A. Well, what do you mean with that question?
Q. I want to know where you stayed. You must have stayed some place or other.
A. Well, I stayed at the Kolahose where the vehicle was standing.
Q. Just how far was that from Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. Well, that was 50 kilometres away.
Q. Please tell us how your meeting with Tschentscher in that area came about.
A. Early in December, when I went to Dnjepropetrowsk, I was given a lift by a vehicle which just stopped in the road.
Q. Where were you taken? To Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that precisely?
A. That was early in December. Then we stopped at the Eastern Bridge, because the Eastern Bridge could only handle one-way traffic; that is to say, the traffic which came out of Dnjepropetrowsk across the bridge had to wait until the traffic going in the other direction had passed. There I noticed that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was running along the vehicles.
Q. What vehicles?
A. The vehicles which waited there so that they could pass over the Eastern Bridge.
Q. Did you see Tschentscher already before the incident which you have described yesterday?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. That wasn't expressed yesterday.
A. Nobody asked me about it.
Q. Please tell us about this meeting.
A. Then the convoy, consisting of Wehrmacht vehicles, SS vehicles, and also vehicles from the organization Todt, rolled across the Eastern Bridge and when we were located on the side of Dnjepropetrowsk we heard the shooting going on. We then left our vehicles so that we could find out where the shooting was going on.
Q. Who was, "we"?
A. That was the driver who took me along and myself.
Q. And he also left the vehicle?
A. Yes, of course. We locked up the vehicle and we went to find out just where this shooting was going on and then we finally came to one Sports Place.
Q. I would like to know the following from you: Just what task did Tschentscher fulfill when he walked along the convoy of cars?
A. No task at all. I assume that since it was so cold, he wanted to get warm by running around.
Q. Did Tschentscher have his own vehicle?
A. He was accompanied, I believe, by his driver, or his adjutant, that was Sturmmann Krauss.
Q. And then he was standing before the bridge?
A. Yes, he was before the bridge at Dnjeoro-Armor.
Q. How long did he stay there?
A. Well, that depends. We had to wait for twenty minutes. Then it defended on now long the traffic rolled across the bridge until the traffic going in the other direction could pass.
Q. How long were you able to observe Tschentscher on this occasion?
A. I only saw him walk by. I didn't directly observe him and I only saw that Tschentscher was here and then I sat back in the vehicle, because I was of the opinion that Tschentscher was here and then I sat back in the vehicle, because I was of the opinion that Tschentscher might perhaps ask me just what I was doing there.
Q: And then you passed the bridge?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you heard shooting going on?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: Was Tschentscher behind you vehicle or in front vehicle?
A: He was in front of my vehicle.
Q: He passed the bridge before you?
A: Yes, he passed the bridge before we did.
Q: Go on.
A: When we came to this big sports field, which used to be the sports field of Dnjepropetrowsk before the war, a large crowd of people were standing there and these people were surrounded by policemen. I had heard in Dnjepropetrowsk that these men belonged to the Guard Detachment of the SD Detachment No. 6, Einsatzkommando 6. These surrounded people were Jews. There was no difference between their age and their sex.
Q: And how were you able to observe Tschentscher here?
A: I myself observed Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher there amongst the spectators.
Q: Just how far were you away from him?
A: I can't tell you thay precisely. However, Tschentscher, because of his size could be easily recognized amongst the crowd.
Q: I would like to know how far away you were from him for a completely different reason.
A: It could certainly not have been more than twenty metres.
Q: And did you dare to approach Tschentscher so closely in view of the fact that you were absent without leave at the time?
A: I was not afraid of being recognized amongst the crowd of people, however, because there were other SS men from the Einsatzkommando 6 from the SD.
Q: Do you know that Tschenter's driver was called Mahnke and his name was not Krauss?
A: Yes, that is correct. The driver's name was Mahnke. He drove him during the advance. However, Mahnke, when he returned in February, 1942, was not with Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher any more, but he was with the unit at Posilikowo and his place was taken by Sturmmann Krauss.
Q: Witness, during December, 1941 -
A: Yes, of course, the man did not leave the convoy -
Q: Just let me ask the questions. Do you know that Mahnke was still with the unit in December?
A: When I returned we talked in detail of all these things and I asked him what route he had taken. Mahnke never left the convoy with this vehicle, so I want to emphasize that in particular, because this vehicle must be in order at all times, because it was the vehicle of the Commanding Officer.
Q: Do you know where the units of the Administrative Battalion were located?
A: No.
Q: Was it possible that they may have been on the Sea of Asow?
A: I don't understand you now.
Q: Was it possible that the battalion was stationed at the Sea of Asow?
A: Yes, that may be correct. The Sea of Asow was discussed. Whether they were actually there at the time is something I do not know.
Q: Weren't you surprised when accidently in this area where the units were far removed, you were suddenly confronted by Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher?
A: Well, this -
Q: Just let me finish my question -- and that you saw him under the same conditions againsas you have described it to us with regard to other places?
A: I assumed that he was going back on leave.
Q: And when was this?
A: That was early in December, 1941.
Q: Do you know, Witness, that Tschentscher on the 1st of December, 1941, began his duty with the WVHA?
A: I only know -
Q: Just let me finish my question - and do you know that already on the 21st of November he had begun his return trip by airplane from the front to the Homeland?
A: First of all, I would like to emphasize that I can support myself on the fact with regard to the date that snow was falling at the time and there was a lot of snow and that in the middle of November it was not so cold in Russia, but, rather, late in November and early December, and I should like to emphasize that Standartenfuehrer or Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher was located with his vehicle and I would like to know just where Tschentscher should have left by plane, whether he left from Dnjepropetrowsk or from Berditschew.
Q: please tell us just how Tschentscher interfered and that alleged execution.
A: I saw that Tschentscher left the circle of spectators and then he approached an SD man who had participated before in the execution of the Jews and in the excesses and I saw that Tschentscher asked him for his pistol. I don't know why he did that, but Tschentscher was wearing a driver's overcoat.
Well, that was done, because it was very cold there.
Q: Did you see that Tschentscher himself was not wearing a pistol?
A: I did not see Tschentscher wearing a pistol belt and I was unable to see any pistol holster on him.
Q: What reason do you assume did Tschentscher have for not using his own pistol?
A: Because he probably was not carrying it on him.
Q: You don't think that he carried it?
A: Yes.
Q: And the SD man, he just gave his pistol away without saying anything about it?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were not surprised about the fact that you could be in the vicinity of the big city of Dnjepropetrowsk and suddenly here you met Tschentscher again?
A: I don't know why I should be surprised. I have already answered the question that I assumed that Tschentscher wass going to leave.
Q: Herr Otto, during the noon recess did you speak with anybody about the question of the receipt of your Army pay and your receipt of food rations, and did you discuss the matter of the pay book with anybody?
A: I told the prosecution immediately that your question was completely incorrect and that in this afternoon's session early at the beginning I would try to explain the matter in detail, because the prosecution could not have any information about conditions which prevailed in the German Soutnern Army at the time.
Q: Just answer my question, please. You talked about this matter to a member of the prosecution during the noon recess?
A: I told them -
Q: Just answer my question.
A: I did not discuss the matter with them, but I only said that I would refer to it after the noon recess.
Q: Do you know, Witness, how big the city of Dnjepropetrowsk is?
A: In peace time it may have had approximately 500,000 inhabitants. That is in my estimation.
Q: Witness, you have told us yesterday that an order was issued to the effect that the troops could not leave their bivouac area?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes. At the beginning of the time we left Silesia, that was actually when we were standing at Rokow.
Q. From the fact that some members of the SS left that bivouac area, you have concluded that this had the approval of the commander or the commanding officer? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Wouldn't it be much more logical to say that if the higher offices had tolerated the fact that people left the bivouac, then there would not have been any reason to prohibit leaving the area by an order?
A. I don't know what motives the divisional commanders had. None of the divisional commanders told me of their motives.
Q. Herr Otto, I am convinced of the fact that none of the commanding officers of the division told you about it. However, I should like to know whether your conclusion is not quite illogical and to what extent. Under what name was the procedure because of suspicion of murder carried out against you by the prosecution at Augaburg?
Under what name?
A. Under the name of Johann Torsten alias Guenther Otto.
Q. I'm not interested in your alias. It was Guenther Otto?
A. I said the criminal police agency --
Q. Just answer my question, Witness.
A. I have answered it.
Q. Under what name was the trial because of suspicion of murder carried out by the prosecution against you at Augsburg?
A. Under the name of Johann Torsten.
Q. Very well. Why didn't you give your name of Otto there?
A. Because at the time when I was arrested in Hausham on the 8th of October I was not arrested by the criminal police agency as Guenther Otto but was arrested because of a denunciation by a former SS guard at the camp of Dachau. He called me Johann Torsten; and consequently I did not describe myself as Guenther Otto. The criminal police at Miesbach described me and called me Johann Torsten.
Q. Witness, if the physician from the insane asylum at Eglfing Harr should appear here and if he were to testify about the diagnosis which has resulted from the observation of you there, would you relieve this doctor of his obligation of secrecy?
A. Yes, naturally; and at the same time I would request that some patients from the observation ward should also be taken along here and that they should also be cross examined by the prosecution.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, I do not have any further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination by other defense counsel? Any redirect?
MR. FULKERSEN: These little artistic efforts of mine seem to have been of some value in clearing up this testimony, so I've made another one.
THE PRESIDENT: Nothing succeeds like success.
MR. FULKERSEN: I have here what purports to be an organizational chart of the supply services of the Wiking Division. I'd like for the witness to examine it, see if he thinks it is correct, and then give it to your Honors.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Witness, now I'm going to give you this chart, and I want you to look at it and examine it to see if you think it is correct to the best of your knowledge. Have you looked at it?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct as far as you know?
A. I can't hear the translation. Now I can understand you.
Q. You say you have examined the chart?
A. The chart is correct.
Q. And it does represent the position that Tschentscher held in the battalion so far as you know?
A. I can't hear the translation. It seems to be very far away.
It's very soft. Yes, I can hear you loud and clear now. The answer to the question is yes.
Q. It's your impression, is it, that Tschentscher was the battalion's commander?
A. Yes.
MR. FULKERSEN: I think there's some question here about the accuracy of the chart, so if Dr. Krauss would like to ask him some questions? All right, later.
DR. KRAUSS: I beg your pardon, your Honor, may I now submit my misgivings about this sketch, or shall I do it after the prosecution has finished?
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that you don't think it is correct?
DR. DRAUSS: The sketch is not correct, your Honor. It is wrong.
THE PRESIDENT: You may ask the witness about it now.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q. Witness, who was the chief of the butchers company there?
A. I didn't understand your question.
Q. Who was the chief of the butchers' company?
A. The platoon leader of the butchers' platoon was Untersturmfuehrer Kochaladi.
Q. Who was the chief of the baker's company?
A. That was Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel.
Q. Who was the chief of the supply office?
A. That was Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher as a sideline and then the commander of the entire agency.
Q. Herr Otto, was Tschentscher the commanding officer of the supply battalion?
A. Yes.
Q. What was Fanslau's position?
A. He was the divisional administrative officer.