A Wherever there was a ghetto is what I mean. From my own observation I can assume that Lemberg was one of the Ghettos
Q The order was addressed to the administrative units?
A No, it was addressed generally to all the units that Jews could be used to do some work and then were to be concentrated in these special points.
Q When were you in Tarnopol? How many days after Bogdanovka?
AAbout eight days, I should think.
Q Around the 11th of July?
A Yes, between the 8th, 9th, 10th, or 11th of July, I think is when we left, because I kept leaving Tarnopol to fetch supplies.
Q You mean that already about the 11th of July, 1941, this order against the Jews had been issued?
A We left Tarnopol around the 11th of July and that order to concentrate the Jews in certain points must have preceded that date.
Q Before the 11th of July, you mean. Finally, I have a few questions, only to make comparisons. Can you still tell me where and with what farmers you worked in 1938 and 1939?
A In 1938 from the 15th of March to the 15th of October, I worked in Prinzdorf, which is the Kreis of Bunzlau in Lower Silesia.
Q What was the name again, Prinzdorf?
A Yes, Prinzdorf.
Q Prinzdorf, Kreis of Bunzlau. What was the farmer called?
A Wilhelm Herzog.
Q And from October to the spring of 1939?
A From October to January 1939 I worked in Bunzlow on an estate. I cannot remember the name of the farmer.
Q And after January 1939?
AAfter January 1939 until the middle of May, I worked in Gosen near Berlin with a farmer called Karl Steinach.
Q And what about after May 1939 until you were called up?
A I went home in May, 1939 in order to evade military service and was near mv native village, the name of that village is Kwolsdorf near Hohenfriedeberg.
Q Yes. What did you do there?
A I worked with a farmer again.
Q Do you know the name?
A Karl Heller.
Q And that was until you were called up?
A No, I was conscripted there and when I noticed that I could no longer escape the Wehrmacht in August 1939 I left my labor papers and military pass behind and left my home and went to Hamberg in order to escape abroad and not have to do military service.
Q Yes. what happened?
A Then all ships were blocked. They could no longer leave and I could not go. I worked with a gentleman farmer, at Finkenwerder, temporarily.
Q Finkenwerder, near Berlin, you mean?
A No, near Hamberg.
Q Very well, in Hamberg and whom did you work for there?
A I dontt remember the name of that farmer. I worked for him for about three weeks.
Q And after that three weeks, where did you go then?
A I went back to Hamberg, and at Rotenburgsort I stayed in a Christian hostel where I worked.
Q What else?
AAs a simple wood cutter, cutting fire wood.
Q Without any papers?
A I asked the farmer in Finkenwerder to give me a certificate that I had worked for him and on the basis of that certificate the Labor Exchange of Jagerslatz in Hamberg gave me a substitute card for my labor papers.
Q In Rothenburgsort?
A In Rothenburgsort? You mean how long did I stay there? About four weeks.
Q Four weeks? But what did you do after that?
A From Rothenburgsort I went to Willinghusen in the Kreis of Stormann.
Q What did you do there?
A I worked with the farmers. I ran away from him and I went back to a farmer in Hamberg. My intention all the time was by changing my address so quickly, I would not have to serve in the Army.
Q Is this where you were called in finally?
A It was there in Vierlanden on the 6th of February 1940. I was given a letter by the Police President of Hamburg which stated that I must immediately report to a room, a certain room, of the Hamberg City Hall. When I arrived there I was accused with deliberately evading military service, A disciplinary trial was what they threatened me with, but this was avoided and I had to have my pass photographs taken and on the same day, on the 7th of February I was conscripted by the Wehr District Commander of Hamberg at the Berliner Tor and in that command; it so happened, people were being examined on that same day and those who were being examined were given the order to report to the Infantry Reserve Battalion 469, the same day.
Q Do you still recall the name of the Judge who presided at your court-martial?
A Dr. Lammers.
Q What was his rank?
A Untersturmfuehrer.
Q Untersturmfuehrer, you say he presided, did he?
A Yes.
Q Was he with the Division Court of Viking?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember the other judges?
A They changed during the trial, whereas the prosecution remained the same.
Q I mean the presiding judge.
A Yes, the presiding judge remained the same all the time.
Q And Lammers was the presiding judge?
A Yes.
Q What was the name of the prosecutor?
A Sturmbannfuehrer Pohl.
Q During the campaign in the West where you had participated, did you change your unit?
A No.
Q Who was your commanding officer?
A Rittmeister Durmeister, Major Frederick, was the Division Supply Officer.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination by other counsel?
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination by other counsel?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KRAUSS (for the defendant Tschentscher):
Q. Witness, did I understand from you correctly that you count yourself among the intellectuals and therefore want to turn to politics?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you expect to achieve this? Is it your aim to become a minister, or do you want to work in parties? Will you give us a more precise idea?
A. What I want to do is this. I want to say that today in Germany nobody must think of the idea that only a few officials are allowed to think. The whole of the German people should learn how to think. One should not make the same mistakes which were committed under the old system.
Q. I should like to know how you imagine you will carry this off. Do you wish to become an important official? Do you want to work within the parties?
A. I want to continue my struggle for human rights. By that I mean that I should prefer not to lead a life of luxury but rather start a new life of persecution and struggle as long as human values are being observed.
Q. Herr Otto, what are you doing today?
A. Nothing at all.
Q. It is your intention, as you say, to remain here for a while?
A. Yes. I want to remain in Nurnberg. I have left Munich.
Q. How do you make money at the moment?
A. Simply by being a witness.
Q. Oh, I see. Herr Otto, did you, apart from attending secondary school, also go to another type of school?
A. No.
Q. Why did you not learn a profession at the time? Will you please make a small pause so that people can follow?
A. I attempted to become an apprentice. I attempted, as my father did, to work in a mine. I did not succeed in doing so because I was not very anxious to join the Hitler Youth.
Q. Witness, in order to work in a mine, was it necessary to join the Hitler Youth?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And is that the same reason why you did not learn another profession, baker, butcher, or some suck craft, simply because you did not want to join the Hitler Youth?
A. My father did not have the money to allow me to do this. He wasn't making too much money in his mine, and he would have had to pay insurance money, and so forth, which he could not do. Therefore, I had to take a profession where I could make money myself.
Q. Herr Otto, had you become an apprentice in some enterprise, those contributions by the employer would have been paid by the employer.
A. Two thirds of it, yes. The health insurance, half of it, and half of the invalid's insurance had to be borne by the father.
Q. The reasons why you never learned a profession was financial?
A. Yes. They were financial reasons. Also, there was the ideological reason that I did not want to join the Hitler Youth. I had an offer once, but I was turned down for this because I was not a member of the Hitler Youth.
That was a locksmith's job in Landshut. He, the employer wanted to accept people who were members of the Hitler Youth.
Q. Witness, were you ill when you were a young boy?
A. When I was thirteen, I had diphtheria.
Q. Diphtheria?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you ever in a hospital for any length of time because of an illness?
A. No, I was never in a hospital while I went to school.
Q. Were you ever under special care or admitted to an institution of any sort?
A. No.
Q. At a later period of time did you not go to be observed in a sanatorium? I'm not speaking about Eglfing/ Haardt at the moment; but were you ever put under observation in any other sanatorium or institution?
A. No.
Q. Please think before you speak.
A. No.
Q. Witness, why did you address yourself to the agency which looks after former inmates of concentration camps?
A. I did not address myself to that association. I addressed myself to the agency looking after the victims of National Socialism in order to get my membership card there.
Q. Did you get that membership card?
A. Not up to this date.
Q. When did you apply for it?
A. About May of this year; but in 1945 when I was liberated in Wasserburg, I was looked after by the office in Wasserburg.
Q. That application to the association of politically persecuted people you filed only in May of this year?
A. Yes.
Q. Up to date you have not received your membership card?
A. No.
Q. Why did you report to that association? Why did you want to have that membership card?
A. Why? Because I'm entitled to have it. I realize that I made a mistake, that I went too long without the contribution which is due to politically persecuted people.
Q. You base your claims on your stay in Dachau?
A. Yes, and Danzig-Matzgau also, as well as the fortress of Manching-Ingolstadt.
Q. Is that a concentration camp?
A. No, it is a prison of the Wehrmacht.
Q. I see. Do you know what type of people were committed there?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, tell us.
A The writer Walter Thiele-
Q. Well, I don't mean names. What category of people?
A. Most of them deserters, people absent without leave, members of the illegal Gray Group.
Q. Illegal Gray Group?
A. Yes. This was an illegal resistance movement in the German army, and they called themselves the Gray Group.
Q. Did that group exist outside, near Dnjepropetrowsk in the Reich, for instance?
A. Most of the people arrested, the ones who had gone AWOL and stayed in the Reich, were concentrated in Munich or Thorgau. After the airraids on Munich and when the Wehrmacht present in Munich were damaged, they were transferred to the Manching prison.
Q. Don't you think, Witness, that the membership card for you to belong to the association of politically persecuted people was refused because you are not a politically persecuted person? You were sentenced by an army court in a proper manner for desertion.
A. No. I have not received my membership card for the reason that it has not been proved quite clearly that I really was persecuted politically. Special statements and proof have to be submitted. My files, which were still in Dachau or the SS Court in Prien, are no longer available. As far as I have heard, they have not yet been found.
Q. How long were you in that fortress near Ingolstadt?
A. Together with the Munich prison, from 29 June 1944 to 9 December 1944.
Q. 9 December 1944, and then?
A. Then I was taken back by the SS guards to Dachau.
Q. Were you taken into the concentration camp of Dachau?
A. Our punitive camp was inside the concentration camp.
Q. That, in other words, was a punitive camp of the Wehrmacht?
A. It was a punitive camp of the SS and police.
Q. I see. How long were you there?
A. I remained in the punitive camp of Dachau from 13 August 1943.
Q. 1943, you mean?
A. Yes. I tried to-
Q. No, I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in a different period of time now. You had been taken away from the fortress in Ingolstadt?
A. No, I escaped from Dachau; and, on the basis of my statements, as an alleged soldier, I was taken to the Wehrmacht prison of Munich. Then as I managed to confuse the issue, I was able to hide in Manching for four and a half months. Only after the camp management of Dachau found out where I was was I fetched back by them to Dachau.
Q. When was all that?
A. On the 9th December 1944.
Q. 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you in Dachau?
A. Until my liberation.
Q. On what day?
A. 29 April 1945.
Q. There you were in the punitive camp of the SS and Police?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do after 29 April 1945?
A. We remained in Dachau for a fortnight in the hospital of the training camp.
Q. Did you do any work there?
A. We couldn't do any work in the training camp.
Q. When did you leave the camp?
A. On the 13th of May. An American convoy of medical cars took us to Rosenheim and to a troop field near Rosenheim. From there on the 17th of May 1945 we were taken to Wasserburg. On the following day, the 18th of May 1945, we were released in Wasserburg.
Q. In May 1945 you were released in Wasserburg, were you?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. As the state of my health was extremely bad, I was unable to work. I was underfed, badly underfed. I had to recuperate first of all. I was being looked after and cared for by the agencies concerned in Wasserburg.
Q. In Wasserburg?
A. Yes, in Wasserburg.
Q. Witness, you told us that from August 1945 until August 1946, over a year, in other words, you were committed to the lunatic asylum of Eglfing/Haardt?
A. Yes.
Q. Who committed you?
A. I was arrested in Wasserburg on the suspicion that I belonged to the SS. I was arrested, kept in the prison until the 2nd of August, interrogated on several occasions, and then the community there sent me to Haardt.
Q. You mean the parish of Wasserburg suggested that you should be committed to the lunatic asylum of Eglfing/Haardt and there you were without interruption for the duration of one year?
A. Yes, one year.
Q. Why do you think that you were committed there and kept there for so long a period of time?
A. We had no papers when we were released, and the arguments produced against me in Wasserburg aimed at raising doubt as to my identity as Guenther Otto. For that reason I was taken to Eglfing/Haardt to be put under observation.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q With the permission of the Tribunal I shall continue my examination of the witness. Exactly when were you sent to the insane asylum at Eglfing-Haardt?
A On the 2 August 1945.
Q On 2 August 1945. How long before that time had you stayed at Wasserburg, and how long did you receive relief from the Economic Office at Wasserburg?
A From the 18 May on.
Q From 18 May on?
A Until the 27 June.
Q Until 27 June, and you received the support from them although at that time your identity had not been firmly established?
A My identity as a released inmate was established.
Q What identity was not determined?
A I can not answer this question at all, because I don't know what you are referring to.
Q You said that your identity was doubted, and that is why you were sent to the insane asylum at Eglfing Haardt?
A My identity was doubted because various people from Wasserburg had accused me of having been a member of the SS.
Q Don't you think, witness, that with regard to determining of your identity normally this would have not been a matter to be handled by the police authority?
A No. The Police at that time did not succeed because conditions were so confused in order to make any investigation in my native area, only now I have succeeded in obtaining contact with my father.
Q Because the police did not succeed in clarifying your identity, you were sent into the insane asylum?
A Yes.
Q While you stayed in this insane asylum for a period of one year were you treated by a physicians?
A Yes, I was observed by physicians?
Q You were observed by physicians, also, in order to determine your identity?
A I don't know that.
Q When were you released from the insane asylum?
A I was not released at all. On 11 August I escaped from the institution.
Q On 11 August 1946 you escaped from the institution?
A Yes.
Q Where have you stayed from that time on?
A First at Munich, and then the Refugee Commissioner in Munich assigned me to the Refugee Transit Camp at Dachau.
Q Did you have a room in Munich?
A No.
Q How long did you stay in this Refugee Transit Camp?
A Not long at all.
Q Not long at all. Just how long did you stay?
A Four Hours.
Q What did you do then?
A I received a pass with an order to report to a place of work at the Bayernwerk A.G. at Munich. I cut wood.
Q Did you take up the work which you had been assigned by the State of today?
A Yes.
Q Then how long did you stay at work?
A Well, I had worked until the felling of trees was completed.
Q At what time was that?
A That was at the end of September. Then I had to cease my work because of the weather conditions.
Q Where did you live at that time?
A I lived, and registered with the Police at Munich, in Munich Unterfing.
Q What was the exact address there?
A It was the Underground Construction Management of the Bavarian Works at Munich, Hutefoehring.
Q How long did you stay there?
A Until the end of September.
Q That was 1946?
A Yes, 1946.
Q What did you do then?
A I went to Hausham, that is near Miesbach.
Q What did you do there?
A I tried to become a worker there in the mines.
Q As a worker in the mines, and did you succeed in doing so?
A No.
Q Why not?
A In a coal mine for work under ground a physical examination takes place to find out whether a person is suitable, and in the course of the medical examination my defect in hearing was discovered and, a very good hearing is necessary in mining, because you can be warned by the noise of falling stone which might come down.
Q How long did you stay there?
A Until 18 October.
Q From what time until then?
A From the end of September.
Q What did you do then?
A On 18 October the Criminal Police Detachment at Miesbach arrested me on the suspicion of murder.
Q When were you arrested?
A On 18 October 1946.
Q By whom?
A By the Criminal Branch Agency of Miesbach.
Q By the Criminal Branch Agency of Miesbach. It was a German
A Yes.
Q And you were arrested?
A Yes.
Q And for what reason?
A Because I was under suspicion of murder.
Q You were under suspicion of murder. Just how was this procedure handled?
AA criminal investigator at the police headquarters at Munich showed that this suspicion did not have any basis, and on 18 January, or still earlier I can not give you the precise date, or in the middle of January, I was released at Stadelheim from a pre-trial confinement.
Q Then in the middle of January you were released. Stadelheim itself is a big justice prison where you were released?
A Yes.
Q From what time until when did you stay at this prison?
A From 18 October until 7 December I was at the court-prison at Miesbach, and from 7 December 1946, until time I was released, I remained at Stadelheim in the prison there.
Q Under the suspicion of murder?
A Yes.
Q What German prosecutor carried out this procedure against you?
A That was the Prosecutor at Ausburg.
Q That was the district prosecutor at Ausburg?
A His name was Attorney Freitag.
Q Do you know his file-mark?
A No.
Q Were you released from confinement, or did you escape?
A I was released from confinement because nobody can escape from Stadelheim.
Q What did you do after you were released from the penal prison at Stadelheim?
A My papers had been sent to the district attorney at Ausburg, and District Attorney Freitag had again doubted once my identity and for ten more days I was imprisoned in Ausburg. Then I was released, and then from the middle of February, approximately, until the first of April I worked with the farmer Johann Heidenthaler of Unterdilching, which was the Village of Hohenpoelling.
Q Will you please name the locality once more, that was Underdilching?
A That was the village of Hohenpoelling. That was the district (haudkieis) of Miesbach.
Q You worked there?
A Yes.
Q And how long?
A Until 1 April 1947.
Q What did you do then?
A On 31 March I came to the hospital at Feldkirchen, and there the physician on that morning, the 1st of April, operated on a joint of my left foot where I had a growth.
Q And what hospital were you sent to?
A That was the hospital of Feldkirchen near Westerham.
Q How long did you stay at that hospital?
A I stayed there for one month.
Q Who treated you there?
A It was a doctor by the name of Dr. Biller.
Q Dr. Miller?
A Biller.
Q What did you do then?
AAfter I returned from the hospital I could not resume my work anymore, because my wound on the joint of my left foot did not heal. I then went to Munich, and after I had given up my work with the farmer.
A I stayed in Munich-Riem, in Munich with a German construction agency at Landsbergerstrasse.
Q Did you have any room there?
A No, it was just a simple shelter which is usually given to the workers at the construction places.
Q How long did you stay there?
A I registered there with the police until I came here to Nurnberg.
Q Until you came here?
A Yes.
Q How long do you think that you can earn your living by being given the fee as a witness?
A When I shall have finished here, I shall try to find work either with a construction firm or a farmer. After completing my affairs here, I will have to see what conditions confront me.
Q Witness, do you see your task in the fact that you are a witness in this trial, or do you intend to testify in other trials also?
A I don't know in what trials I should testify.
Q At what place, Witness, did you leave your unit by going absent without leave?
A It was near Nowo-Moskowsk.
Q It was near Nowo-Moskowsk?
A Yes, it was there. It was early in October, 1941.
Q Early October, 1941?
A Yes.
Q And then where did you go?
A I then remained with my vehicle, and then occasionally I went to Nowo-Moskowsk and then to Dnjepropotrowsk, and I would get the necessary papers.
Q Did you go absent without leave together with your vehicle?
A I couldn't drive my vehicle any more because my motor was damaged, and I intended not to return to my unit.
Q Where did you go from Nowo-Moskowsk?
A I remained near my vehicle, as I have already stated. Occasionally I did go to Nowo-Moskowsk or Dnjepropotrowsk, and then I would go back, in the vicinity of my vehicle.
Q When were you arrested; when were you caught?
AAt the end of January.
Q At the end of January, 1942?
A Yes.
Q Where?
A In Dnjepropotrowsk.
Q And where were you taken from there?
A The secret field police took me to Dnjepropotrowsk to the base of the Division Viking.
Q The base at Dnjepropotrowsk?
A Yes.
Q At the time did you already commit yourself to a wound?
A No.
Q When did you inflict a wound on yourself?
A On the 16th of February.
Q On the 16th of February? And where?
AAt the base of the Division Viking.
Q Did you still have your wagon in your possession at that time?
A No. An SS man who was also there because he had lost his vehicle, he was also located in the same place, and I borrowed his pistol.
Q This SS man also was kept at that division base and had a pistol?
A He also had a pistol?
Q Which he gave to you then so that you could inflict a wound on yourself?
A He didn't know that I was going to inflict a wound on myself.
Q Why was the other SS man kept at the base?
A He was not kept there. He was staying there voluntarily because his vehicle was in town for repairs.
Q However, you said you were kept at this base; you were under arrest?
A Yes.
Q And in spite of that you had the possibility of borrowing a pistol from somebody so that you could inflict a wound on yourself?
A Yes. The paybook was taken away from me, and otherwise I had freedom of movement.
Q What was that?
A My paybook was taken away from me, and otherwise I had freedom of movement.
Q Where were you taken after you had inflicted a wound on yourself?
A I was taken to the local garrison hospital at Dnjepropotrowsk.
Q When did you return to your unit?
AAt the end of February.
Q When did the first court martial proceedings take place against you?
A I can't give you the exact date. However, it must have been between the 10th and the 15th of March.
Q The time between 10 and 15 March?
A Yes.
Q When was the verdict pronounced against you?
A On the 30th of April, 1942.
Q On the 30th of April, 1942?
A Yes.
Q How many proceedings took place?
AAltogether three sessions took place.
Q Witness, in your opinion what was the reason why, when a selfmutilation, which existed without any doubt, and because we are dealing here with desertion beyond any doubt, how was it that there were three sessions called?
Don't you think that a German Military Courts Martial, and above all an SS-court, which, as you have also explained in your testimony, did not pay any particular attention to one life more or less, why did this SS-Court, once desertion had been established and self-mutilation had been established beyond any doubt, why didn't it immediately, after one session, pronounce the death verdict?
A Well, I was able to give much counterproof. My first counterproof was for the absence without leave, etc., and desertion. Here I had evidence in my hands which showed that I tried to obtain spare parts for my vehicle from the Army Motor Pool that my vehicle could be taken away and repaired. Since no records were available, it was impossible to have my vehicle taken away for repairs.
Q Witness, what counter-evidence did you have to offer for your self-mutilation?
A I could state rather apparently that I had not intended to carry out any self-mutilation, but I only had handled my weapon very negligently.
Q What interval was there between the verdict which called for the death sentence and the decision that you were to be kept in protective custody for life?
A That was immediately afterwards.
Q That was immediately afterwards?
A To my arguments that I had not sworn any oath to the SS, that I was not a voluntary member of the Waffen-SS, and in my military papers and my military record the entries were looked for which are usually contained in these papers, these entries were lacking. Consequently I could not be considered a soldier or member of the SS, but I had to be considered as a civilian, because the oath which I swore to the Wehrmacht was rescinded as soon as I was inducted into the SS, because the oath of the Wehrmacht ends, and it states, "I swear by God the Almighty."