Q. What did you do then?
A. As the state of my health was extremely bad, I was unable to work. I was underfed, badly underfed. I had to recuperate first of all. I was being looked after and cared for by the agencies concerned in Wasserburg.
Q. In Wasserburg?
A. Yes, in Wasserburg.
Q. Witness, you told us that from August 1945 until August 1946, over a year, in other words, you were committed to the lunatic asylum of Eglfing/Haardt?
A. Yes.
Q. Who committed you?
A. I was arrested in Wasserburg on the suspicion that I belonged to the SS. I was arrested, kept in the prison until the 2nd of August, interrogated on several occasions, and then the community there sent me to Haardt.
Q. You mean the parish of Wasserburg suggested that you should be committed to the lunatic asylum of Eglfing/Haardt and there you were without interruption for the duration of one year?
A. Yes, one year.
Q. Why do you think that you were committed there and kept there for so long a period of time?
A. We had no papers when we were released, and the arguments produced against me in Wasserburg aimed at raising doubt as to my identity as Guenther Otto. For that reason I was taken to Eglfing/Haardt to be put under observation.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. KRAUSS:
Q With the permission of the Tribunal I shall continue my examination of the witness. Exactly when were you sent to the insane asylum at Eglfing-Haardt?
A On the 2 August 1945.
Q On 2 August 1945. How long before that time had you stayed at Wasserburg, and how long did you receive relief from the Economic Office at Wasserburg?
A From the 18 May on.
Q From 18 May on?
A Until the 27 June.
Q Until 27 June, and you received the support from them although at that time your identity had not been firmly established?
A My identity as a released inmate was established.
Q What identity was not determined?
A I can not answer this question at all, because I don't know what you are referring to.
Q You said that your identity was doubted, and that is why you were sent to the insane asylum at Eglfing Haardt?
A My identity was doubted because various people from Wasserburg had accused me of having been a member of the SS.
Q Don't you think, witness, that with regard to determining of your identity normally this would have not been a matter to be handled by the police authority?
A No. The Police at that time did not succeed because conditions were so confused in order to make any investigation in my native area, only now I have succeeded in obtaining contact with my father.
Q Because the police did not succeed in clarifying your identity, you were sent into the insane asylum?
A Yes.
Q While you stayed in this insane asylum for a period of one year were you treated by a physicians?
A Yes, I was observed by physicians?
Q You were observed by physicians, also, in order to determine your identity?
A I don't know that.
Q When were you released from the insane asylum?
A I was not released at all. On 11 August I escaped from the institution.
Q On 11 August 1946 you escaped from the institution?
A Yes.
Q Where have you stayed from that time on?
A First at Munich, and then the Refugee Commissioner in Munich assigned me to the Refugee Transit Camp at Dachau.
Q Did you have a room in Munich?
A No.
Q How long did you stay in this Refugee Transit Camp?
A Not long at all.
Q Not long at all. Just how long did you stay?
A Four Hours.
Q What did you do then?
A I received a pass with an order to report to a place of work at the Bayernwerk A.G. at Munich. I cut wood.
Q Did you take up the work which you had been assigned by the State of today?
A Yes.
Q Then how long did you stay at work?
A Well, I had worked until the felling of trees was completed.
Q At what time was that?
A That was at the end of September. Then I had to cease my work because of the weather conditions.
Q Where did you live at that time?
A I lived, and registered with the Police at Munich, in Munich Unterfing.
Q What was the exact address there?
A It was the Underground Construction Management of the Bavarian Works at Munich, Hutefoehring.
Q How long did you stay there?
A Until the end of September.
Q That was 1946?
A Yes, 1946.
Q What did you do then?
A I went to Hausham, that is near Miesbach.
Q What did you do there?
A I tried to become a worker there in the mines.
Q As a worker in the mines, and did you succeed in doing so?
A No.
Q Why not?
A In a coal mine for work under ground a physical examination takes place to find out whether a person is suitable, and in the course of the medical examination my defect in hearing was discovered and, a very good hearing is necessary in mining, because you can be warned by the noise of falling stone which might come down.
Q How long did you stay there?
A Until 18 October.
Q From what time until then?
A From the end of September.
Q What did you do then?
A On 18 October the Criminal Police Detachment at Miesbach arrested me on the suspicion of murder.
Q When were you arrested?
A On 18 October 1946.
Q By whom?
A By the Criminal Branch Agency of Miesbach.
Q By the Criminal Branch Agency of Miesbach. It was a German
A Yes.
Q And you were arrested?
A Yes.
Q And for what reason?
A Because I was under suspicion of murder.
Q You were under suspicion of murder. Just how was this procedure handled?
AA criminal investigator at the police headquarters at Munich showed that this suspicion did not have any basis, and on 18 January, or still earlier I can not give you the precise date, or in the middle of January, I was released at Stadelheim from a pre-trial confinement.
Q Then in the middle of January you were released. Stadelheim itself is a big justice prison where you were released?
A Yes.
Q From what time until when did you stay at this prison?
A From 18 October until 7 December I was at the court-prison at Miesbach, and from 7 December 1946, until time I was released, I remained at Stadelheim in the prison there.
Q Under the suspicion of murder?
A Yes.
Q What German prosecutor carried out this procedure against you?
A That was the Prosecutor at Ausburg.
Q That was the district prosecutor at Ausburg?
A His name was Attorney Freitag.
Q Do you know his file-mark?
A No.
Q Were you released from confinement, or did you escape?
A I was released from confinement because nobody can escape from Stadelheim.
Q What did you do after you were released from the penal prison at Stadelheim?
A My papers had been sent to the district attorney at Ausburg, and District Attorney Freitag had again doubted once my identity and for ten more days I was imprisoned in Ausburg. Then I was released, and then from the middle of February, approximately, until the first of April I worked with the farmer Johann Heidenthaler of Unterdilching, which was the Village of Hohenpoelling.
Q Will you please name the locality once more, that was Underdilching?
A That was the village of Hohenpoelling. That was the district (haudkieis) of Miesbach.
Q You worked there?
A Yes.
Q And how long?
A Until 1 April 1947.
Q What did you do then?
A On 31 March I came to the hospital at Feldkirchen, and there the physician on that morning, the 1st of April, operated on a joint of my left foot where I had a growth.
Q And what hospital were you sent to?
A That was the hospital of Feldkirchen near Westerham.
Q How long did you stay at that hospital?
A I stayed there for one month.
Q Who treated you there?
A It was a doctor by the name of Dr. Biller.
Q Dr. Miller?
A Biller.
Q What did you do then?
AAfter I returned from the hospital I could not resume my work anymore, because my wound on the joint of my left foot did not heal. I then went to Munich, and after I had given up my work with the farmer.
A I stayed in Munich-Riem, in Munich with a German construction agency at Landsbergerstrasse.
Q Did you have any room there?
A No, it was just a simple shelter which is usually given to the workers at the construction places.
Q How long did you stay there?
A I registered there with the police until I came here to Nurnberg.
Q Until you came here?
A Yes.
Q How long do you think that you can earn your living by being given the fee as a witness?
A When I shall have finished here, I shall try to find work either with a construction firm or a farmer. After completing my affairs here, I will have to see what conditions confront me.
Q Witness, do you see your task in the fact that you are a witness in this trial, or do you intend to testify in other trials also?
A I don't know in what trials I should testify.
Q At what place, Witness, did you leave your unit by going absent without leave?
A It was near Nowo-Moskowsk.
Q It was near Nowo-Moskowsk?
A Yes, it was there. It was early in October, 1941.
Q Early October, 1941?
A Yes.
Q And then where did you go?
A I then remained with my vehicle, and then occasionally I went to Nowo-Moskowsk and then to Dnjepropotrowsk, and I would get the necessary papers.
Q Did you go absent without leave together with your vehicle?
A I couldn't drive my vehicle any more because my motor was damaged, and I intended not to return to my unit.
Q Where did you go from Nowo-Moskowsk?
A I remained near my vehicle, as I have already stated. Occasionally I did go to Nowo-Moskowsk or Dnjepropotrowsk, and then I would go back, in the vicinity of my vehicle.
Q When were you arrested; when were you caught?
AAt the end of January.
Q At the end of January, 1942?
A Yes.
Q Where?
A In Dnjepropotrowsk.
Q And where were you taken from there?
A The secret field police took me to Dnjepropotrowsk to the base of the Division Viking.
Q The base at Dnjepropotrowsk?
A Yes.
Q At the time did you already commit yourself to a wound?
A No.
Q When did you inflict a wound on yourself?
A On the 16th of February.
Q On the 16th of February? And where?
AAt the base of the Division Viking.
Q Did you still have your wagon in your possession at that time?
A No. An SS man who was also there because he had lost his vehicle, he was also located in the same place, and I borrowed his pistol.
Q This SS man also was kept at that division base and had a pistol?
A He also had a pistol?
Q Which he gave to you then so that you could inflict a wound on yourself?
A He didn't know that I was going to inflict a wound on myself.
Q Why was the other SS man kept at the base?
A He was not kept there. He was staying there voluntarily because his vehicle was in town for repairs.
Q However, you said you were kept at this base; you were under arrest?
A Yes.
Q And in spite of that you had the possibility of borrowing a pistol from somebody so that you could inflict a wound on yourself?
A Yes. The paybook was taken away from me, and otherwise I had freedom of movement.
Q What was that?
A My paybook was taken away from me, and otherwise I had freedom of movement.
Q Where were you taken after you had inflicted a wound on yourself?
A I was taken to the local garrison hospital at Dnjepropotrowsk.
Q When did you return to your unit?
AAt the end of February.
Q When did the first court martial proceedings take place against you?
A I can't give you the exact date. However, it must have been between the 10th and the 15th of March.
Q The time between 10 and 15 March?
A Yes.
Q When was the verdict pronounced against you?
A On the 30th of April, 1942.
Q On the 30th of April, 1942?
A Yes.
Q How many proceedings took place?
AAltogether three sessions took place.
Q Witness, in your opinion what was the reason why, when a selfmutilation, which existed without any doubt, and because we are dealing here with desertion beyond any doubt, how was it that there were three sessions called?
Don't you think that a German Military Courts Martial, and above all an SS-court, which, as you have also explained in your testimony, did not pay any particular attention to one life more or less, why did this SS-Court, once desertion had been established and self-mutilation had been established beyond any doubt, why didn't it immediately, after one session, pronounce the death verdict?
A Well, I was able to give much counterproof. My first counterproof was for the absence without leave, etc., and desertion. Here I had evidence in my hands which showed that I tried to obtain spare parts for my vehicle from the Army Motor Pool that my vehicle could be taken away and repaired. Since no records were available, it was impossible to have my vehicle taken away for repairs.
Q Witness, what counter-evidence did you have to offer for your self-mutilation?
A I could state rather apparently that I had not intended to carry out any self-mutilation, but I only had handled my weapon very negligently.
Q What interval was there between the verdict which called for the death sentence and the decision that you were to be kept in protective custody for life?
A That was immediately afterwards.
Q That was immediately afterwards?
A To my arguments that I had not sworn any oath to the SS, that I was not a voluntary member of the Waffen-SS, and in my military papers and my military record the entries were looked for which are usually contained in these papers, these entries were lacking. Consequently I could not be considered a soldier or member of the SS, but I had to be considered as a civilian, because the oath which I swore to the Wehrmacht was rescinded as soon as I was inducted into the SS, because the oath of the Wehrmacht ends, and it states, "I swear by God the Almighty."
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Just answer my questions, please. Don't you think that a member of the Army or the Air Force or the Navy can be sentenced to death for self-mutilation, for desertion, just like any member of the SS, and that, therefore, in this decision, your membership in the SS or any other branch of the Service was of no importance whatsoever?
A I did not belong to any branch of military service any more. This was because I didn't swear an oath to the SS, because the oath to the SS maintains the point of view that the SS does not consider God its only lord but the Fuehrer instead. The oath of the SS is, "My honor is loyalty to my Fuehrer" and not for God. However, in the Wehrmacht I gave the oath, and I swore, "I swear by God the Almighty," and I never gave any oath for the Fuehrer alone.
Q Witness, just answer those questions which I am putting to you. In this last session were you acquitted of the self-mutilation and of the crime of going absent without leave?
A Yes.
Q Weren't you acquitted?
A Yes.
Q And in spite of this you were put into protective custody for life?
A That was done because I tried to dodge the draft in 1939.
Q Because you tried to dodge the military service in 1939?
A Yes.
Q Witness, do you know the existence of Paragraph 51 of the German Reich Penal Code?
A No. I would like to know it.
Q Paragraph 51 of the German Penal Code provides for the acquiting of offenses when the person concerned, according to his mental ability, is not responsible for the acts which he has committed. However, in order to protect the public the person concerned, if he has committed severe crimes, he is put into protective custody, and is kept there. This is not meant as a punishment, but this is a protective Court No. II, Case No. 4.Was this paragraph 51 applied in your trial?
A No, they only talked about Paragraph 5-A.
Q Paragraph 5-A is the regular provision in the framework for the punishment itself. Wasn't it explained to you that since you were lacking in mental stability you could not be held responsible for your acts?
A No.
Q And consequently you could not be punished?
A I was punished. I was punished in the camp at Danzig Matzgau.
Q And therefore you were only to be kept in protective custody?
A Yes.
Q Wasn't that explained to you?
A No. I was just to be punished as an education measure because the camp at Danzig Matzgau was not a punitive camp but it was an education camp.
Q At the various sessions at the time when the Court Martial proceedings were under way, were you given a medical examination?
A No.
Q Weren't you examined by the troop physician or so?
A No.
Q I am going to touch briefly the incident at Zelozow which you have mentioned. Do you know the master butcher Jackl of the Butchers' Company?
A Yes.
Q Was this man Jackl also in the Village of Zelozow?
A Whether he was there I don't know.
Q However, you consider that possible?
A Yes, naturally.
Q Do you know the first sergeant in the Butchers' Company, Mueller?
A. His name was Erich Mueller.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Was this first sergeant present at the incidents which you have described?
A No.
Q How do you know that?
A When we looked on across the bridge our first sergeant, our top kick, was standing there with Unterscharfuehrer Buettner and other company members. They were standing near a vehicle, and they were shaving themselves. He didn't even have the time of handling all the orderly room matters which had accumulated.
Q In any case you know Mueller?
A Yes.
Q And he marched along together with the units?
A Yes.
Q Do you know Hauptsturmfuehrer Schaefer?
A Yes.
Q What functions did he have to carry out?
A I don't know what his exact status was, what his work was. I only saw him very briefly, and I saw him really for the first time at Bogdanovka when we moved at night, and then I also saw him once more at Tarnopol. I cannot recall having seen Schaefer any more in the administrative unit.
Q Do you know whether Schaefer was present at the incidents of Zelozow?
A I didn't see him there. I have already stated that I saw Schaefer for the first time at Bogdanovka.
Q What would you say, Witness, if these three men would appear here, and if they would testify that they together with Tschentscher and together with Fanslau had been there when the unit moved on, and that they were always in the vicinity of Tschentscher, and if they would describe this testimony here to be untrue?
A Then I would say that when I was present in the examination, neither Jackl nor Mueller were able to remember, and they said Court No. II, Case No. 4.they had too much work in order to care about this.
That was when I was examined.
Q Witness, were you examined together with the witness who has been announced here by the name of Sauer?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether at Zelozow the field post office was located in the vicinity of your garrison?
A We were not stationed at Zelozow. The supply unit was at Bogdanovka. We only stayed there one night. However, we didn't use that Army post office. For the most part wherever there was a supply unit there would also be a post office of the Division Viking because it belonged to that administrative agency. Most of the employees there were members of the Wehrmacht and they wore the uniform of the Wehrmacht.
Q The field post office went together with the administrative office?
A Yes.
Q Do you know a man by the name of Schlenkrich in the field post office?
A No, I don't know the name at all.
Q The incidents which you have described, and I am referring to the bridge incident at Zelozow, should these things have also been observed by other members of the administrative unit?
A Yes.
Q By what units above all?
A By Rottenfuehrer Luedisch who was in the vehicle.
Q No, I am referring now to the administrative office, by the Bakers' Company or the Butchers' Company?
A Well, he belonged to the administrative office. He was the driver of the vehicle which was usually used by Tschentscher during the times of bivouac.
Q And the administrative office remained at the bridge?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes.
Q And was the Army field post office there too?
A If it was it must have been at the end, the tail end of the column. It must have been the last vehicle.
Q Could people have observed from there what went on?
A No, the tail end of the column was within the city.
Q When Fanslau and Tschentscher let this Jew slide into the swamp, wasn't there a danger for Fanslau and Tschentscher that they themselves would fall into the swamp?
A No. After all they were standing on the road, and they just let the Jew slide on down beyond the road, and they just pushed him down by brutal force.
Q You say that the Jews who were not capable of working any more had been pushed to the bomb craters and that they were shot there?
A Well, they were first pushed into the crater and then they were shot.
Q Wouldn't it have been much simpler to push all these Jews into the swamp also and to let them suffocate there?
A Perhaps it would have been more simple. However, it just wasn't done. Perhaps some of the people actually were disgusted about that. Perhaps Fanslau, above all, was disgusted with it, because he left the unit a very short time afterwards, and went to the Staff of the division.
Q And you maintain that at the bomb crater the Unter or Obersturmfuehrer Braunaagel was also present?
A Yes.
Q And Sell from the Bakers' Company?
A Yes, Oberscharfuehrer Sell from the Bakers' Company?
Q I am now coming back to the incident at Bogdanovka which you have described. Yesterday you told us that by Tschentscher you were chased out of a synagogue when you wanted to obtain a souvenoir there. Where was the synagogue located in Bogdanovka?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A It wasn't in the center of the town.
Q It was in the center of the town?
A No, it was not just in the center of the town.
Q Where was it?
A It was not directly outside, but it was within the city limits.
Q It was outside of the city but within the city limits?
A Yes.
Q Why did you want to obtain a souvenoir from a synagogue?
A Because everybody else was doing it.
Q Because everybody else was doing it?
A Yes.
Q What were you thinking of when you collected that souvenoir?
A Well, I wanted to have a souvenoir from my days as a soldier.
Q What were you trying to get in the form of a souvenoir?
A I wanted some sort of a relic, which was lying around the synagogue.
Q And why did you want one from a synagogue?
A I still don't know today why. Perhaps I did that because everybody else was doing it, and I just didn't want to play an exception to the rule.
Q You did it because everybody else was doing it, and you didn't want to exclude yourself?
A Yes, I didn't want to exclude myself in that sense.
Q And then you happened to go to the synagogue?
A Yes, everybody else was going to the synagogue, and we thought at the time that we could get a special souvenoir there.
Q As a soldier in the east, you, in any case, had to undergo particular strain. Could you have burdened yourself with such a souvenoir and could you have carried it along as part of your luggage?
A Yes. After all as drivers we weren't burdened with these things. Our vehicle was so big that we could have put a lot of things Court No. II, Case No. 4.in it.
For example, at Ravaruska from Stabsscharfuehrer Mueller we had the T.N.T. taken out of hand grenades so we could take them along as souvenoirs, and they were much more of a burden than a small souvenoir which you might have taken along.
Q You would have carried this luggage along and taken them along with you?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Soldiers never have trouble about that. Soldier have always been able to find room for souvenoirs.
DR. KRAUSS: Your Honor, that is why I would be interested to know just what the witness was thinking of, did he want a cross or a chalice or something of that kind.
THE PRESIDENT: It would hardly be a cross in a synagogue.
Q (By Dr. Krauss) Witness, you have stated that Tschentscher put fire to that synagogue?
A Yes.
Q Now, please tell us what preparations he made for that?
A He ordered us to leave the synagogue and then he went out as the last person. He took some straw and then he put the straw afire in the synagogue. Then in the synagogue there were many curtains which are usually easily inflammable. You don't need very much to set afire there. And then synagogues in these garrison villages, many of them were constructed with wood in many parts of the building.
Q Did he do that from the inside or from the outside?
A He took the burning straw in. He took the straw in and then he set fire to it inside. He didn't set it in the middle of the synagogue, but he did it, he put the burning straw directly under the curtains.
Q How do you know that he put the straw in the middle hall of the synagogue?
A I said he did not put it in the middle. He did not go to the middle. He did not go to the center.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did Tschentscher start this fire by himself?
A Yes.
Q At Bugdanovka the incident also took place with the three Jews?
A Yes.
Q And they were led away by Senn and Schmidbauer?
A Yes.
Q Was Tschentscher or Fanslau in the vicinity at the time?
A I didn't see Tschentscher in the vicinity. I didn't see him when the Jews were transported away, and the incident took place as I have described it before. The Jews were carrying spades on their shoulders, and Oberscharfuehrer Senn marched ahead of them, and they were followed by Rottenfuehrer Schmidbauer. They were taken away -
Q Yes; I am going to put my question now. You didn't see Tschentscher in the vicinity?
A No.
Q Could others besides you also observe how these Jews were taken away?
A Yes.
Q For example, the members of the Bakers' Company?
A They were not there; only the Supply Office was there.
Q And the members of the Butchers' Company?
A They were not there either.
Q How about the members of the administrative office?
A Well, there were only the members of the Supply Office there.
Q Could they see it?
A Yes.
Q And the three Jews were brought to the city limits?
A They were taken a little way out of the village and there they had to dig their own graves.
Q Did you see that?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No.
Q How do you know it then?
A I don't think that Oberscharfuehrer Senn and Rottenfuehrer Schmidbauer stood there and they dug the graves for the Jews.
Q What you assume, I am not interested in, have you seen it?
THE PRESIDENT: That was an answer to your question. You asked him how do you know that, and he answered that; so you can't complain if he doesn't give you facts.
DR. KRAUS (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT TSCHENTSCHER): Your Honor, I believe that I put the question whether he, himself, saw it.
THE PRESIDENT: How did you hear that?
BY DR. KRAUS:
Q You, yourself, witness, know of the fate of these people, and you only know of their fate from hearsay?
A Rottenfuehrer Schmidbauer himself told me about it.
Q However, you did not see what was done to these people?
A I heard the shots being fired.
Q Please answer my question. You did not see what happened to these people?
A No, I did not see it.
Q You only heard bullets being fired?
A -
Q Please answer my question. You did not see what happened to these people?
A No, I did not see it.
Q You only heard bullets being fired?
A I saw how these people were taken away, and a short time later I heard some shots being fired. After all, you can hear if they are shots from a rifle or shots from a machine pistol.
Q Yes, that is correct. This can be clearly determined.
With regard to your stay at Tarnopol, just where were the units of the administrative battalion located?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A The food office was at a hill outside the city; presumably before that it had been a wireless station of the Red Army. The Bakery Company and the Butchers' Platoon was in the opposite direction. They were outside of the city with their vehicles. Just where the Bakery Company worked, I don't know. However, the Butchers' Platoon worked in the slaughterhouse.
Q To whom was the administration of slaughterhouse at Tarnopol subordinated?
A It was subordinated to Sturmbannfuehrer Kopaladi, as the man in charge of the Butchers' Platoon.
Q Witness, in the slaughterhouse at Tarnopol, wasn't that the slaughterhouse for the entire army?
A I don't think so because I only know from us that here the slaughtering was being done for the Division Wiking. Whether this was a slaughterhouse for the entire army, I don't know. I didn't hear that.
Q However, it is very important. If you want to draw conclusions from the utilizations of labor at the slaughterhouse, then it is important to know who was responsible for the administration of the slaughterhouse, and for the utilization of labor.
A In the morning, when I returned to the cattle which I put on a truck, I saw only SS members there. That was when I delivered the cattle there; and I only saw members from the Butchers' Platoon there who were prepared to carry out the slaughtering of the cattle. I didn't see any members of the Wehrmacht there, nor of the fact that this had been an army slaughterhouse.
Q Did you see whether Fanslau or Tschentscher supervised the work right on the spot?
A No, I didn't see that, and I never claimed that.
Q You have testified about the conversation amongst several officers with regard to the concentration of Jews in ghettoes?
A Yes.
Q How far away from the circle of officers were you, these Court No. II, Case No. 4.officers who had this conversation?