A. Well, because of the clamor and the crying Fanslau and Tschentscher went there and asked what it was about.
Q. And what happened then.
A. Then Tschentscher and Fanslau took the Jew away; they didn't handle him as you handle a human being; They grabbed him by the upper arms and they dragged him away, you might say. And then at the edge of the bridge; that is to say, at the corner, where the path and the bridge intercross, they let him slide into the swamp.
Q. What do you mean?
A. What I mean is, where the bridge began.
Q. On what side of the bridge?
A. On the side of Zclozow.
Q. The city side, on the side where you were standing, or the other?
A. On tne side where the vehicles were standing.
Q. On tne right-hand side, you mean?
A. On the right-hand side, yes, directly towards the town.
Q. Seen from you, on your right-hand side?
A. Yes.
Q. How was it done? Did you see it yourself, directly?
A. I walked along with them because I wanted to see what was going to happen to the Jew. The shooting was heard by everybody, but where the shooting came from I did not know at first. Now, I wanted to find out what they were going to do to this Jew, and I saw that Tschentscher and Fanslau went to the edge of the bridge and let the Jew slide into the swamp.
Q. What do you mean, they let him slide into the swamp?
A. They took him to the edge of the swamp. They grabbed held of his upper-arm and pushed him forward.
The Jew couldn't withdraw, nor could he get released from the two. All he could do was to walk into the swamp and sink down...slowly.
Q. They pushed him into the swamp?
A. They dragged him into it, yes.
Q. How deep was the swamp from the bridge?
A. Fifty centimeters, perhaps. The edge of the path was not quite steep; it had a slide into it. Anybody who approaches the swamp so close will always slide down in that manner. Everybody could see it, that the swamp, as soon as it became a swamp, was not a gradual decline but an immediate one.
Q. They let go of him?
A. Yes, they let go of him.
Q. And he was dragged down by his own gravity?
A. Yes, but at the beginning he made efforts to get out of it again, but once one labors in a swamp, he is lost.
Q. In order to determine the locality once again quite precisely, you were at the same side where the vehicles were, looking towards the bridge; and from you it was on the right-hand side, or the left-hand side?
A. On the right-hand side.
Q. I see.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: May it please the Court, I think, according to the drawing, the locality should be on the other side of the bridge. I think it was drawn on the wrong side here.
THE PRESIDENT: It depends on which way you are facing; the right-hand side, if he was facing one direction; the left-hand if he was facing another.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: What I asked him was: From the town, facing towards the bridge. That is to say, he was standing on the town side, where the vehicles were parked, facing the bridge, and there he says "on the right-hand side."
THE PRESIDENT: Let us show him this diagram.
(Document submitted to witness.)
WITNESS: These are the vehicles...this is where I was standing...where I had been facing...and, here is where the people were standing...and this was on the right-hand side...
Q I have a final question on this part of the problem. How many metres was the first vehicle away from the bridge?
AAt the most, one or two metres.
Q One or two metres?
A Yes.
Q What was the distance between the various vehicles?
A They were fairly close to one another, because the tail end should not be too close to the city.
Q I thought there was a general order according to which, when a vehicular column stops, at least twenty metres must be observed between each vehicle in case of air raids.
A That order was issued, yes, but could not be observed in the advance. In some cases, it happened that the vehicles were so close to one another that no single man could walk between them. That was to prevent other vehicles from interpolating.
Q Now let us go on to Bogdanovka. That, I think was the next spot.
A The place where the Supply Office, was, which the Butchers Platoon and Bakery Company belonged remained behind at Zolozow for a while.
Q Where is Bogdanovka situated?
A Between Lemberg and Tarnopol.
Q Between Lemberg and Tarnopol? And there it was that you told us about the evening roll call on the occasion of which the order was read on the occasion of the death of the Hauptsturmfuehrer -- what was he? -- Hauptsturmfuehrer eckerle.
A Standartenfuehrer Weckerle.
Q Did you know that Standartenfuehrer Weckerle had been murdered by Jews?
AA rumor to that effect occurred in Zclozow during the advance and the official confirmation of his death was given the same evening when the order was issued. The first phrase of the order road, "By Order of the Administrative Leader, it is made known that no members of the Wehrmacht or the SS will be prosecuted if they participate in the shooting of the Jews."
Q I have to put it to you, Witness, that Standartenfuehrer Weckerle had not been murdered by Jews and that, at least, not officially, was never alleged.
A If he had been killed in the ordinary way, then certainly an official announcement was made about his death.
Q That is quite correct.
A Then it was officially admitted that Weckerle was shot leading his regiment.
Q Standartenfuehrer Weckerle was killed in the field but not by Jews.
A That is what we were told at the time and the reprisals against the Jews, when Jews were ordered to do the filthiest work imaginable, to dig up corpses, and so on, was done of the basis of that act.
Q You maintain, do you, that in an official order, the death of Weckerle --
A Yes, in an official announcement.
Q -- was explained that he had been murdered by Jews?
A Yes.
Q And that order by the administrative leader began with the words-
A "By order of the Division Administrative Officer." It was not an order; it was an announcement, really.
Q That was in the evening, the evening of what day?
A The same evening when the Supply Office went on to Bogdanovka.
Q In order to get a certain amount of clarity, when did all these incidents occur, on what day of the advance?
A prom Zclozow it was the third day after Zamosk, the incident at Zclozow, I mean.
Q And you refer to Zclozow when you were doing combat service, I believe, on the 29th of June, was it?
A Yes, around about that date.
Q 29th of June. Was that perhaps the 1st or 2d of July, in that case?
A Yes.
Q July? Zclozow, how many days later did the event at Bogdanovka occur?
A On the same day.
Q You mean you went on the same day from Czlozow to Bogdanovka?
A We only stayed at the bridge in the morning until the bridge was sufficiently repaired for the units to continue moving on.
Q And on the evening of that same day the announcement of the order was made, was it?
A Yes. This announcement of the order.
Q Was Defendant Fanslau present on that occasion?
A No.
Q Then you described the scene when Senn -- I forgot his rank -
A He was on Oberscharfuehrer.
Q When Oberscharfuehrer Senn was alleged to have lead three Jews away to be shot?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A The next morning.
Q About the 2d or 3d, I suppose, of July.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did the witness say who read the order from the executive officer. I didn't catch that, if he did.
Q Who was it that read the order during the roll call.
A Tschentscher.
Q The next morning the scene with Oberscharfuehrer Senn occurred?
A Yes.
Q Please describe it to us once again. Where did you see Senn?
A I was just getting my vehicle ready. It was immediately at the exit of a side street towards the main street when Oberscharfuehrer Senn of the Supply Office and Rottenfuehrer Schmidbauer who went to the Supply Office with his commanding unit as part of the Butchers Platoon, walked along with three Jews, each of them carrying a spade across their shoulder, and they passed my vehicle.
The Jews were led by Oberscharfuehrer Senn, whereas Rottenfuehrer Schmidbauer with his gun walked along behind them. Behind those five people, a small boy was running along, who quite obviously was the son of one of the Jews, and that boy was crying, and, at the cross roads, Fanslau's car was standing, because nearby some water was available. I don't know what Fanslau was doing exactly, but he was standing near the vehicle. His driver and his orderly, Volgas, were with him. He called out because some of them, including Schmidbauer, tried to push the boy back: "If this Jewish Bastard doesn't want to go away, let him look on. "Half an hour or an hour later, when we were preparing to move on, we could hear the shooting, and it became known that Oberscharfuehrer Senn who was a member of the Waffen SS and the Gestapo had shot down the Jews with his gun. He had ordered them to dig their graves before; they had to get rid of their shirts and coats and had to kneel down when Oberscharfuehrer Senn shot them down with his automatic pistol.
Q What you told us now is what Senn is alleged to have committed?
A Yes, quite.
Q You were where a side street joined the main street, were you?
A Yes.
Q And in front of you was Fanslau's car?
A No, he was not on the side street. He was standing on the main street, when I left the side street, I had to go into the main street and he was roughly --- to my left there was his vehicle, but three or four metres further on there was a water point where from we all fetched the water for the engines and so forth.
Q Could you see the car?
A Yes, you could see it.
Q Could you see it?
A Yes, I could see it from my car, There was no house standing on the corner immediately. You could see across.
Q I didn't quite follow this. Was Defendant Fanslau sitting in his car?
A No, he was standing next to it.
Q And did you hear these things yourself?
A Yes.
Q That he called this out?
A Yes, this is what he called out.
Q Was Defendant Fanslau in your vicinity all the time?
A When he returned to us, I don't know, but when this happened, he was with the Supply Office and then I didn't see him any more, because we advanced and I lost sight of Fanslau.
Q Very well. The next incident was that one in Tarnopol. There I believe Defendant Fanslau was not taking a direct part, according to your description?
A No.
Q But one more question about that. You told us that the Butchers Platoon was located in the slaughter house at Tarnopol.
A The work done by the Butchers Platoon occurred in the slaughter house, whereas the Butchers platoon itself, as far as their billets and vehicles were concerned, were assigned to a totally different locality: so that relatively speaking, only those were in the slaughter house who were actually doing some work; others were in a camp and put their things in order, and so forth.
Q The hostelrie of the platoon was in a slaughter house, it was-
A Only those who did some work.
Q How many about?
A I should say about 10 to 12 men were doing one shift.
Q who was it who had herded the Jews together so that they had to clean the slaughter house, as you say?
A I don't know. I went there one day with my vehicle and the cattle on it and observed the Jews as they cleaned up the dirt and filth in the slaughter house, I saw that they were driven on and bullied and they were frightfully anxious to do their work quickly.
Q How big was the slaughter house?
A It was an usual slaughter house, I suppose. I don't know many slaughter houses. It wasn't as big as the Nurnberg one, but you could do fairly good work in it.
Q Was there any slaughtering done for the civilian population?
A No, only for the Army, as far as I can judge from my knowledge.
Q On that occasion you said you had heard of the Division Order about the catching of the Jews?
A Yes, catching of Jews who were supposed to be sent to a ghetto later on.
Q From the documents submitted in this trial I think I can presume that action occurred very much later and then were carried out by the Special Einsatzgruppen.
A But it did start then.
Q As early as that period, but it was never the task of the combat units to do these things.
A Well, the combat units were fighting and therefore they couldn't find the time to do these things, but the Administrative Services were not a combat unit. They worked simply on supplying the Viking Division with food and clothes, and so forth.
Q Do you mean to say that the Supply units had been given the order to accommodate Jews in ghettos?
A They had not been given the order, but one might assume that when Jews were used to do some work they were then gathered together and concentrated into a ghetto.
Q Where could one find a ghetto so quickly?
A The same had happened at Lemberg.
Q How do you mean?
A In Lemberg a ghetto was established.
Q You mean they were to be sent to Lemberg?
A I assume so, yes, because I passed through Lemberg when I was a supply driver and I saw columns of Jews marched through the city.
Q If I have followed you correctly, the order was to the effect that Jews who were allocated to do some work were not to be released after the work but were to be concentrated in ghetto.
A You are quite right. They were to be concentrated into ghettos.
Q In ghettos, you mean, you said the ghetto at Lemberg?
A Wherever there was a ghetto is what I mean. From my own observation I can assume that Lemberg was one of the Ghettos
Q The order was addressed to the administrative units?
A No, it was addressed generally to all the units that Jews could be used to do some work and then were to be concentrated in these special points.
Q When were you in Tarnopol? How many days after Bogdanovka?
AAbout eight days, I should think.
Q Around the 11th of July?
A Yes, between the 8th, 9th, 10th, or 11th of July, I think is when we left, because I kept leaving Tarnopol to fetch supplies.
Q You mean that already about the 11th of July, 1941, this order against the Jews had been issued?
A We left Tarnopol around the 11th of July and that order to concentrate the Jews in certain points must have preceded that date.
Q Before the 11th of July, you mean. Finally, I have a few questions, only to make comparisons. Can you still tell me where and with what farmers you worked in 1938 and 1939?
A In 1938 from the 15th of March to the 15th of October, I worked in Prinzdorf, which is the Kreis of Bunzlau in Lower Silesia.
Q What was the name again, Prinzdorf?
A Yes, Prinzdorf.
Q Prinzdorf, Kreis of Bunzlau. What was the farmer called?
A Wilhelm Herzog.
Q And from October to the spring of 1939?
A From October to January 1939 I worked in Bunzlow on an estate. I cannot remember the name of the farmer.
Q And after January 1939?
AAfter January 1939 until the middle of May, I worked in Gosen near Berlin with a farmer called Karl Steinach.
Q And what about after May 1939 until you were called up?
A I went home in May, 1939 in order to evade military service and was near mv native village, the name of that village is Kwolsdorf near Hohenfriedeberg.
Q Yes. What did you do there?
A I worked with a farmer again.
Q Do you know the name?
A Karl Heller.
Q And that was until you were called up?
A No, I was conscripted there and when I noticed that I could no longer escape the Wehrmacht in August 1939 I left my labor papers and military pass behind and left my home and went to Hamberg in order to escape abroad and not have to do military service.
Q Yes. what happened?
A Then all ships were blocked. They could no longer leave and I could not go. I worked with a gentleman farmer, at Finkenwerder, temporarily.
Q Finkenwerder, near Berlin, you mean?
A No, near Hamberg.
Q Very well, in Hamberg and whom did you work for there?
A I dontt remember the name of that farmer. I worked for him for about three weeks.
Q And after that three weeks, where did you go then?
A I went back to Hamberg, and at Rotenburgsort I stayed in a Christian hostel where I worked.
Q What else?
AAs a simple wood cutter, cutting fire wood.
Q Without any papers?
A I asked the farmer in Finkenwerder to give me a certificate that I had worked for him and on the basis of that certificate the Labor Exchange of Jagerslatz in Hamberg gave me a substitute card for my labor papers.
Q In Rothenburgsort?
A In Rothenburgsort? You mean how long did I stay there? About four weeks.
Q Four weeks? But what did you do after that?
A From Rothenburgsort I went to Willinghusen in the Kreis of Stormann.
Q What did you do there?
A I worked with the farmers. I ran away from him and I went back to a farmer in Hamberg. My intention all the time was by changing my address so quickly, I would not have to serve in the Army.
Q Is this where you were called in finally?
A It was there in Vierlanden on the 6th of February 1940. I was given a letter by the Police President of Hamburg which stated that I must immediately report to a room, a certain room, of the Hamberg City Hall. When I arrived there I was accused with deliberately evading military service, A disciplinary trial was what they threatened me with, but this was avoided and I had to have my pass photographs taken and on the same day, on the 7th of February I was conscripted by the Wehr District Commander of Hamberg at the Berliner Tor and in that command; it so happened, people were being examined on that same day and those who were being examined were given the order to report to the Infantry Reserve Battalion 469, the same day.
Q Do you still recall the name of the Judge who presided at your court-martial?
A Dr. Lammers.
Q What was his rank?
A Untersturmfuehrer.
Q Untersturmfuehrer, you say he presided, did he?
A Yes.
Q Was he with the Division Court of Viking?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember the other judges?
A They changed during the trial, whereas the prosecution remained the same.
Q I mean the presiding judge.
A Yes, the presiding judge remained the same all the time.
Q And Lammers was the presiding judge?
A Yes.
Q What was the name of the prosecutor?
A Sturmbannfuehrer Pohl.
Q During the campaign in the West where you had participated, did you change your unit?
A No.
Q Who was your commanding officer?
A Rittmeister Durmeister, Major Frederick, was the Division Supply Officer.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination by other counsel?
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross examination by other counsel?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. KRAUSS (for the defendant Tschentscher):
Q. Witness, did I understand from you correctly that you count yourself among the intellectuals and therefore want to turn to politics?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you expect to achieve this? Is it your aim to become a minister, or do you want to work in parties? Will you give us a more precise idea?
A. What I want to do is this. I want to say that today in Germany nobody must think of the idea that only a few officials are allowed to think. The whole of the German people should learn how to think. One should not make the same mistakes which were committed under the old system.
Q. I should like to know how you imagine you will carry this off. Do you wish to become an important official? Do you want to work within the parties?
A. I want to continue my struggle for human rights. By that I mean that I should prefer not to lead a life of luxury but rather start a new life of persecution and struggle as long as human values are being observed.
Q. Herr Otto, what are you doing today?
A. Nothing at all.
Q. It is your intention, as you say, to remain here for a while?
A. Yes. I want to remain in Nurnberg. I have left Munich.
Q. How do you make money at the moment?
A. Simply by being a witness.
Q. Oh, I see. Herr Otto, did you, apart from attending secondary school, also go to another type of school?
A. No.
Q. Why did you not learn a profession at the time? Will you please make a small pause so that people can follow?
A. I attempted to become an apprentice. I attempted, as my father did, to work in a mine. I did not succeed in doing so because I was not very anxious to join the Hitler Youth.
Q. Witness, in order to work in a mine, was it necessary to join the Hitler Youth?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And is that the same reason why you did not learn another profession, baker, butcher, or some suck craft, simply because you did not want to join the Hitler Youth?
A. My father did not have the money to allow me to do this. He wasn't making too much money in his mine, and he would have had to pay insurance money, and so forth, which he could not do. Therefore, I had to take a profession where I could make money myself.
Q. Herr Otto, had you become an apprentice in some enterprise, those contributions by the employer would have been paid by the employer.
A. Two thirds of it, yes. The health insurance, half of it, and half of the invalid's insurance had to be borne by the father.
Q. The reasons why you never learned a profession was financial?
A. Yes. They were financial reasons. Also, there was the ideological reason that I did not want to join the Hitler Youth. I had an offer once, but I was turned down for this because I was not a member of the Hitler Youth.
That was a locksmith's job in Landshut. He, the employer wanted to accept people who were members of the Hitler Youth.
Q. Witness, were you ill when you were a young boy?
A. When I was thirteen, I had diphtheria.
Q. Diphtheria?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you ever in a hospital for any length of time because of an illness?
A. No, I was never in a hospital while I went to school.
Q. Were you ever under special care or admitted to an institution of any sort?
A. No.
Q. At a later period of time did you not go to be observed in a sanatorium? I'm not speaking about Eglfing/ Haardt at the moment; but were you ever put under observation in any other sanatorium or institution?
A. No.
Q. Please think before you speak.
A. No.
Q. Witness, why did you address yourself to the agency which looks after former inmates of concentration camps?
A. I did not address myself to that association. I addressed myself to the agency looking after the victims of National Socialism in order to get my membership card there.
Q. Did you get that membership card?
A. Not up to this date.
Q. When did you apply for it?
A. About May of this year; but in 1945 when I was liberated in Wasserburg, I was looked after by the office in Wasserburg.
Q. That application to the association of politically persecuted people you filed only in May of this year?
A. Yes.
Q. Up to date you have not received your membership card?
A. No.
Q. Why did you report to that association? Why did you want to have that membership card?
A. Why? Because I'm entitled to have it. I realize that I made a mistake, that I went too long without the contribution which is due to politically persecuted people.
Q. You base your claims on your stay in Dachau?
A. Yes, and Danzig-Matzgau also, as well as the fortress of Manching-Ingolstadt.
Q. Is that a concentration camp?
A. No, it is a prison of the Wehrmacht.
Q. I see. Do you know what type of people were committed there?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, tell us.
A The writer Walter Thiele-
Q. Well, I don't mean names. What category of people?
A. Most of them deserters, people absent without leave, members of the illegal Gray Group.
Q. Illegal Gray Group?
A. Yes. This was an illegal resistance movement in the German army, and they called themselves the Gray Group.
Q. Did that group exist outside, near Dnjepropetrowsk in the Reich, for instance?
A. Most of the people arrested, the ones who had gone AWOL and stayed in the Reich, were concentrated in Munich or Thorgau. After the airraids on Munich and when the Wehrmacht present in Munich were damaged, they were transferred to the Manching prison.
Q. Don't you think, Witness, that the membership card for you to belong to the association of politically persecuted people was refused because you are not a politically persecuted person? You were sentenced by an army court in a proper manner for desertion.
A. No. I have not received my membership card for the reason that it has not been proved quite clearly that I really was persecuted politically. Special statements and proof have to be submitted. My files, which were still in Dachau or the SS Court in Prien, are no longer available. As far as I have heard, they have not yet been found.
Q. How long were you in that fortress near Ingolstadt?
A. Together with the Munich prison, from 29 June 1944 to 9 December 1944.
Q. 9 December 1944, and then?
A. Then I was taken back by the SS guards to Dachau.
Q. Were you taken into the concentration camp of Dachau?
A. Our punitive camp was inside the concentration camp.
Q. That, in other words, was a punitive camp of the Wehrmacht?
A. It was a punitive camp of the SS and police.
Q. I see. How long were you there?
A. I remained in the punitive camp of Dachau from 13 August 1943.
Q. 1943, you mean?
A. Yes. I tried to-
Q. No, I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in a different period of time now. You had been taken away from the fortress in Ingolstadt?
A. No, I escaped from Dachau; and, on the basis of my statements, as an alleged soldier, I was taken to the Wehrmacht prison of Munich. Then as I managed to confuse the issue, I was able to hide in Manching for four and a half months. Only after the camp management of Dachau found out where I was was I fetched back by them to Dachau.
Q. When was all that?
A. On the 9th December 1944.
Q. 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you in Dachau?
A. Until my liberation.
Q. On what day?
A. 29 April 1945.
Q. There you were in the punitive camp of the SS and Police?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do after 29 April 1945?
A. We remained in Dachau for a fortnight in the hospital of the training camp.
Q. Did you do any work there?
A. We couldn't do any work in the training camp.
Q. When did you leave the camp?
A. On the 13th of May. An American convoy of medical cars took us to Rosenheim and to a troop field near Rosenheim. From there on the 17th of May 1945 we were taken to Wasserburg. On the following day, the 18th of May 1945, we were released in Wasserburg.
Q. In May 1945 you were released in Wasserburg, were you?
A. Yes.