Q. You didn't see that?
A. No, I didn't see that.
Q. When you did see them there, did they have pistols in their hands then, or were they drawing their pistols?
A. Yes, they had pistols in their hands.
Q. How were they standing to you? Were they facing you?
A. Yes, they were facing me, because the crater was here (indicating), the gauntlet was running this way, and we were standing approximately there, and around the crater the officers were standing around in a semicircle.
Q. And when you looked there, the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher stood already there?
A. Yes.
Q. And each of them had a pistol in his hand?
A. Yes, each of them held a pistol in his hand. I saw Tschentscher when he changed a clip.
Q. And you say that you watched this for twenty minutes?
A. Yes. It must have been twenty minutes.
Q. Did you see that the defendant Fanslau fired a gun?
A. Yes, I was able to see that. When a hand shoots, then there is a recoil and the hand is thrown back a little bit, and the hand raises up for a second.
Q. And did the defendant Fanslau constantly fire a gun during these twenty minutes?
A. No. A non-commissioned officer from the Mountaineers would stand at the side of the crater, and he would point to the Jews who were still moving. That could also be clearly seen from a distance because this non-commissioned officer was closest to us.
Q. And how many times did the defendant Fanslau fire?
A. I can't give you an exact number. I did not see how the defendant Fanslau changed his clip.
Q. Are you referring now to how many times you saw his hand recoil?
A. Well, that was more than three or four times.
Q. I would like to hear something from you about the other incident which took place before, as you say. I am now referring to the Jew who allegedly was thrown into the swamp.
A. He was not thrown into the swamp. He was sort of sliding in there slowly from the end of the bridge.
Q. Please describe this incident to us precisely.
A. One of the Jews had realized that it was of no use to continue to work, and he probably thought that something terrible would happen to him, because he had already been beaten and tortured while he was working. Suddenly he threw down the log which he was carrying, or this lumber. He threw it down and then the soldiers who were supervising the work beat him up. Then in order to complete the torture the defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau took the Jew under his arms and they slowly let him slide down from the end of the bridge. The Jew immediately begged them to shoot him immediately. However, they let him slide down into the swamp. Slowly they let him sink into the swamp gradually, until the Jew, in his over great anxiety, because he was afraid of suffocation, begged them, and then they shot at him. They fired several shots, and I can say that each of them fired at least twelve shots at the Jew.
Q. Twelve shots each?
A. Two shots.
Q. Oh, two shots?
A. Yes, two.
Q. Where were you standing while this incident took place?
A. I was approximately three to four meters away from where this thing took place.
Q. I want you to say where on the bridge.
A. No, I was on the other side of the bridge.
Q. That was not on the side where the citadel was?
A. No, I was at the side of Zclozow.
Q. You were on the side where your vehicles were standing?
A. Yes.
Q. Where, precisely, were you standing?
A. Approximately three to four meters in direction.
Q. Well, between you and the bridge what was there?
A. No, I was between the bridge and Fanslau's car.
Q. Very well, and you were standing in the middle of the road?
A. No, I was standing at the side of the road.
Q. And around you all this activity was going on?
A. No, there was no activity going on there, because everyone concerned was looking at the spectacle. Some people would actually make remarks, either cynically or that they felt pity for the Jews.
Q. And where were the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher standing?
A. They were standing directly at the edge of the bridge, on the side of Zclozow.
Q. They were standing directly next to you?
A. No, they were not next to me, because they were three or four meters away, but they were in my direct proximity.
Q. And the two of them were standing together?
A. There was perhaps a distance of from at least three-quarters to one meter between the two.
Q. And where was the Jew whom they seized?
A. Well, he was down there in the swamp.
Q. Before they seized him?
A. Well, he was about to carry logs.
Q. But where was he locally? Was he on the bridge, before the bridge?
A. He was before the bridge when he was seized, and that is where he threw down the log.
Q. Where was he, around one of the trucks, or where?
A. He was on the side of the street, because they could not walk along the middle of the road, and he must have been near the head of the column.
He was still ahead of my truck.
Q. Therefore he was on the other side of you. Then the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher--
A. He came from the border of the city with the logs, and he walked up to about the head of the supply column, so then he probably thought it was of no use any more, and he just threw down the log, so that he was on this side, between the bridge and Zclozow.
Q. He threw down the log, and where did the log roll to?
A. Well, it remained lying around the street, for a four-edged log does not roll.
Q. What did he do then?
A. What did the Jew do? He just remained standing there.
Q. With the log?
A. Yes. First he tried to kneel down in order to make believe that he was exhausted. However, I don't think that he was exhausted.
Q. He was not exhausted?
A. No.
Q. And he threw the log down and then he remained standing next to it?
A. Yes. He wanted to kneel down, but perhaps he was unsuccessful at doing so, and he was driven up again with rifle butts by a mountaineer.
Q. How was it that the Mountaineer Division was located on that spot? How were members of that division standing there?
A. Well, they could not stand on the bridge because the bridge was being repaired. They were just standing around the area of the bridge. I have stated that from the very beginning.
Q. Then did the Jew throw down his log next to a mountaineer?
A. No, he was not standing directly next to a mountaineer. He did not throw the log down directly before a mountaineer, but he threw it down in such a way that it drew people's attention, because he didn't let the log slide down, but he lifted it off his shoulder and dropped it down with a very swift movement.
Q. Then he remained standing next to it until a mountaineer came, and what did the mountaineer do?
A. Well, he tried to kneel down, or lie down, and when he tried to do that, the mountaineer hit him with his rifle. Well, he hit him with the butt of his carbine.
Q. With the butt?
A. Yes.
Q. He hit him back in the area of his kidneys and into the back of his neck?
A. Yes.
Q. What did the Jew do then?
A. Well, he remained standing, and like all Jews he said in Yiddish, "Comrade, comrade, I can't go on any more." These were the words which they used to say, "I don't feel well; I can't."
Q. But you say you could see from looking at him that it was not true?
A. Well, if he had been exhausted, he would have let the log slide down, but the way he did it you could see that he just dropped it sharply.
Q. And he said that, and what did the mountaineer answer him?
A. The mountaineer just hit him up and he called him "You pig".
Q. And then the Jew said that he couldn't go on any longer?
A. He said, "I can't go on any longer, comrade."
Q. And what happened then?
A. Well, they continued to mistreat him.
Q. Just how? Please give me greater particulars.
A. They beat up all the parts of his body.
Q. By whom?
A. By the mountaineers.
Q. By several now?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did they come from?
A. Well, they were always standing around the vicinity of the bridge. I have stated before that there were approximately fifteen mountaineers standing around the vicinity of the bridge.
Q. Did they observe everything that went on? Did they see that he threw the log down? First of all there was only one mountaineer there, you say.
A. He gave an order. He told the truth, and whatever a German soldier says in that case is considered the truth, and whatever the Jew said is a lie.
Q. What did the German soldier say?
A. He says, "You don't want to work any more." He says, "Well, you can go on, but you don't want to work any more."
Q. What happened then?
A. Then the other soldiers came there. They asked why this man did not go on working any more, and then the mountaineer must have told them just why this Jew did not continue his work, and then this torture started anew.
Q. You were standing next to it. You say he must have said that. You must have heard him say it.
A. Well, with about six or seven people all talking at the same time there you can't say exactly what is being said. However, he must have said that because what happened afterwards was the drowning of the Jew, and several pitying remarks which several of the mountaineers made just gave an explanation for that, because the mountaineer said that if he had not thrown the log down this wouldn't have happened.
Q. And how did the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher come to the Jew, or how did the Jew get to them?
A. They were standing next to their vehicles, and they were talking to each other. Well, this incident must have entitled them to find out what was going on, and they joined the group, and then when they were told that the Jew had thrown the log down-
Q. Just a moment. You stated that they were standing next to their vehicles?
A. Yes, they were standing by their vehicle, yes.
Q. Fanslau and Tschentscher?
A. Yes.
Q. May I put to you that a few minutes ago you have stated that the two were standing at the bridge?
A. The bridge and the vehicles were approximately four to five meters from each other.
Q. Just a moment, just a moment. You have stated that they were standing near your vehicle.
A. Not near my vehicle. They were standing near their vehicles. They were standing near their own vehicles. I did not mean they were standing near my vehicle, but they were standing near their vehicle.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess until quarter to two.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1355 nours, 19 August 1947).
THE MARSHALL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BELZER (Counsel for defendant Sommer): May it please the Court, I should like to inform the Tribunal that tne witness Sanner, who I have been allowed for cross-examination, has arrived here from Munich. He has told me that it is an urgent necessity for him to return to Munich. I am informing the Court of this, and I wonder whether it would not be useful to follow up the examination of this witness with the cross-examination of witness Sanner.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you say, Mr. Robbins? No objection?
MR. ROBBINS: It is all right.
THE PRESIDENT: That gives Dr. Hoffmann more time; he needs it. And what about Wolff?
MR. ROBBINS: Schwarz.
THE PRESIDENT: Schwarz.
MR. ROBBINS: We learned yesterday that he hasn't been in Dachau for some time. He has been in Ludwigsburg, and arrangements have been made to get him here as soon as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is Ludwigsburg?
MR. ROBBINS: I have no idea.
INTERPRETER: It is near Stuttgart.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in Europe?
Well, you may prepare to call your witness following this one. That will be some time tomorrow. By the way, it is the plan of the Tribunal to recess tomorrow at the conclusion of the judgment in Case 1 for just a short time. It will probably be about eleven o'clock.
We will know more definitely tomorrow. But we will resume these sessions immediately after that.
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honors please, Judge Musmanno suggested a moment ago that it would be helpful to the Court if the witness would draw a little sketch of this lay-out near Zclozow, including the citadel, the swamp, the bridge, a and so forth.
THR PRESIDENT: Has he done so?
MR. FULKERSON: No, sir, but we can do it now, if you would like.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Nothing elaborate, and nothing that should take time.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
(Witness draws sketch on witness stand)
THE PRESIDENT: Marshall, help defendant Vogt from the courtroom.
(Marshall escorts defendant Vogt from the defendants' box out of the courtroom.
GUNTHER OTTO - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. VON STACKELBURG (Counsel for defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, before the recess we stopped when you described the incident of the Jew who had dropped his timber and was now being dragged up again by the mountaineers.
A. Yes.
Q. You said that defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau had been standing at their cars at the time.
A. Yes.
Q. And that the Jew was located at the same level of your car.
A. Well, let us say in the middle, between my car and the staff car.
Q. Now, how did the two defendants go to the Jew, or how did the Jew go to the defendants?
A. Well, because of the clamor and the crying Fanslau and Tschentscher went there and asked what it was about.
Q. And what happened then.
A. Then Tschentscher and Fanslau took the Jew away; they didn't handle him as you handle a human being; They grabbed him by the upper arms and they dragged him away, you might say. And then at the edge of the bridge; that is to say, at the corner, where the path and the bridge intercross, they let him slide into the swamp.
Q. What do you mean?
A. What I mean is, where the bridge began.
Q. On what side of the bridge?
A. On the side of Zclozow.
Q. The city side, on the side where you were standing, or the other?
A. On tne side where the vehicles were standing.
Q. On tne right-hand side, you mean?
A. On the right-hand side, yes, directly towards the town.
Q. Seen from you, on your right-hand side?
A. Yes.
Q. How was it done? Did you see it yourself, directly?
A. I walked along with them because I wanted to see what was going to happen to the Jew. The shooting was heard by everybody, but where the shooting came from I did not know at first. Now, I wanted to find out what they were going to do to this Jew, and I saw that Tschentscher and Fanslau went to the edge of the bridge and let the Jew slide into the swamp.
Q. What do you mean, they let him slide into the swamp?
A. They took him to the edge of the swamp. They grabbed held of his upper-arm and pushed him forward.
The Jew couldn't withdraw, nor could he get released from the two. All he could do was to walk into the swamp and sink down...slowly.
Q. They pushed him into the swamp?
A. They dragged him into it, yes.
Q. How deep was the swamp from the bridge?
A. Fifty centimeters, perhaps. The edge of the path was not quite steep; it had a slide into it. Anybody who approaches the swamp so close will always slide down in that manner. Everybody could see it, that the swamp, as soon as it became a swamp, was not a gradual decline but an immediate one.
Q. They let go of him?
A. Yes, they let go of him.
Q. And he was dragged down by his own gravity?
A. Yes, but at the beginning he made efforts to get out of it again, but once one labors in a swamp, he is lost.
Q. In order to determine the locality once again quite precisely, you were at the same side where the vehicles were, looking towards the bridge; and from you it was on the right-hand side, or the left-hand side?
A. On the right-hand side.
Q. I see.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: May it please the Court, I think, according to the drawing, the locality should be on the other side of the bridge. I think it was drawn on the wrong side here.
THE PRESIDENT: It depends on which way you are facing; the right-hand side, if he was facing one direction; the left-hand if he was facing another.
DR. VON STACKELBERG: What I asked him was: From the town, facing towards the bridge. That is to say, he was standing on the town side, where the vehicles were parked, facing the bridge, and there he says "on the right-hand side."
THE PRESIDENT: Let us show him this diagram.
(Document submitted to witness.)
WITNESS: These are the vehicles...this is where I was standing...where I had been facing...and, here is where the people were standing...and this was on the right-hand side...
Q I have a final question on this part of the problem. How many metres was the first vehicle away from the bridge?
AAt the most, one or two metres.
Q One or two metres?
A Yes.
Q What was the distance between the various vehicles?
A They were fairly close to one another, because the tail end should not be too close to the city.
Q I thought there was a general order according to which, when a vehicular column stops, at least twenty metres must be observed between each vehicle in case of air raids.
A That order was issued, yes, but could not be observed in the advance. In some cases, it happened that the vehicles were so close to one another that no single man could walk between them. That was to prevent other vehicles from interpolating.
Q Now let us go on to Bogdanovka. That, I think was the next spot.
A The place where the Supply Office, was, which the Butchers Platoon and Bakery Company belonged remained behind at Zolozow for a while.
Q Where is Bogdanovka situated?
A Between Lemberg and Tarnopol.
Q Between Lemberg and Tarnopol? And there it was that you told us about the evening roll call on the occasion of which the order was read on the occasion of the death of the Hauptsturmfuehrer -- what was he? -- Hauptsturmfuehrer eckerle.
A Standartenfuehrer Weckerle.
Q Did you know that Standartenfuehrer Weckerle had been murdered by Jews?
AA rumor to that effect occurred in Zclozow during the advance and the official confirmation of his death was given the same evening when the order was issued. The first phrase of the order road, "By Order of the Administrative Leader, it is made known that no members of the Wehrmacht or the SS will be prosecuted if they participate in the shooting of the Jews."
Q I have to put it to you, Witness, that Standartenfuehrer Weckerle had not been murdered by Jews and that, at least, not officially, was never alleged.
A If he had been killed in the ordinary way, then certainly an official announcement was made about his death.
Q That is quite correct.
A Then it was officially admitted that Weckerle was shot leading his regiment.
Q Standartenfuehrer Weckerle was killed in the field but not by Jews.
A That is what we were told at the time and the reprisals against the Jews, when Jews were ordered to do the filthiest work imaginable, to dig up corpses, and so on, was done of the basis of that act.
Q You maintain, do you, that in an official order, the death of Weckerle --
A Yes, in an official announcement.
Q -- was explained that he had been murdered by Jews?
A Yes.
Q And that order by the administrative leader began with the words-
A "By order of the Division Administrative Officer." It was not an order; it was an announcement, really.
Q That was in the evening, the evening of what day?
A The same evening when the Supply Office went on to Bogdanovka.
Q In order to get a certain amount of clarity, when did all these incidents occur, on what day of the advance?
A prom Zclozow it was the third day after Zamosk, the incident at Zclozow, I mean.
Q And you refer to Zclozow when you were doing combat service, I believe, on the 29th of June, was it?
A Yes, around about that date.
Q 29th of June. Was that perhaps the 1st or 2d of July, in that case?
A Yes.
Q July? Zclozow, how many days later did the event at Bogdanovka occur?
A On the same day.
Q You mean you went on the same day from Czlozow to Bogdanovka?
A We only stayed at the bridge in the morning until the bridge was sufficiently repaired for the units to continue moving on.
Q And on the evening of that same day the announcement of the order was made, was it?
A Yes. This announcement of the order.
Q Was Defendant Fanslau present on that occasion?
A No.
Q Then you described the scene when Senn -- I forgot his rank -
A He was on Oberscharfuehrer.
Q When Oberscharfuehrer Senn was alleged to have lead three Jews away to be shot?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A The next morning.
Q About the 2d or 3d, I suppose, of July.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did the witness say who read the order from the executive officer. I didn't catch that, if he did.
Q Who was it that read the order during the roll call.
A Tschentscher.
Q The next morning the scene with Oberscharfuehrer Senn occurred?
A Yes.
Q Please describe it to us once again. Where did you see Senn?
A I was just getting my vehicle ready. It was immediately at the exit of a side street towards the main street when Oberscharfuehrer Senn of the Supply Office and Rottenfuehrer Schmidbauer who went to the Supply Office with his commanding unit as part of the Butchers Platoon, walked along with three Jews, each of them carrying a spade across their shoulder, and they passed my vehicle.
The Jews were led by Oberscharfuehrer Senn, whereas Rottenfuehrer Schmidbauer with his gun walked along behind them. Behind those five people, a small boy was running along, who quite obviously was the son of one of the Jews, and that boy was crying, and, at the cross roads, Fanslau's car was standing, because nearby some water was available. I don't know what Fanslau was doing exactly, but he was standing near the vehicle. His driver and his orderly, Volgas, were with him. He called out because some of them, including Schmidbauer, tried to push the boy back: "If this Jewish Bastard doesn't want to go away, let him look on. "Half an hour or an hour later, when we were preparing to move on, we could hear the shooting, and it became known that Oberscharfuehrer Senn who was a member of the Waffen SS and the Gestapo had shot down the Jews with his gun. He had ordered them to dig their graves before; they had to get rid of their shirts and coats and had to kneel down when Oberscharfuehrer Senn shot them down with his automatic pistol.
Q What you told us now is what Senn is alleged to have committed?
A Yes, quite.
Q You were where a side street joined the main street, were you?
A Yes.
Q And in front of you was Fanslau's car?
A No, he was not on the side street. He was standing on the main street, when I left the side street, I had to go into the main street and he was roughly --- to my left there was his vehicle, but three or four metres further on there was a water point where from we all fetched the water for the engines and so forth.
Q Could you see the car?
A Yes, you could see it.
Q Could you see it?
A Yes, I could see it from my car, There was no house standing on the corner immediately. You could see across.
Q I didn't quite follow this. Was Defendant Fanslau sitting in his car?
A No, he was standing next to it.
Q And did you hear these things yourself?
A Yes.
Q That he called this out?
A Yes, this is what he called out.
Q Was Defendant Fanslau in your vicinity all the time?
A When he returned to us, I don't know, but when this happened, he was with the Supply Office and then I didn't see him any more, because we advanced and I lost sight of Fanslau.
Q Very well. The next incident was that one in Tarnopol. There I believe Defendant Fanslau was not taking a direct part, according to your description?
A No.
Q But one more question about that. You told us that the Butchers Platoon was located in the slaughter house at Tarnopol.
A The work done by the Butchers Platoon occurred in the slaughter house, whereas the Butchers platoon itself, as far as their billets and vehicles were concerned, were assigned to a totally different locality: so that relatively speaking, only those were in the slaughter house who were actually doing some work; others were in a camp and put their things in order, and so forth.
Q The hostelrie of the platoon was in a slaughter house, it was-
A Only those who did some work.
Q How many about?
A I should say about 10 to 12 men were doing one shift.
Q who was it who had herded the Jews together so that they had to clean the slaughter house, as you say?
A I don't know. I went there one day with my vehicle and the cattle on it and observed the Jews as they cleaned up the dirt and filth in the slaughter house, I saw that they were driven on and bullied and they were frightfully anxious to do their work quickly.
Q How big was the slaughter house?
A It was an usual slaughter house, I suppose. I don't know many slaughter houses. It wasn't as big as the Nurnberg one, but you could do fairly good work in it.
Q Was there any slaughtering done for the civilian population?
A No, only for the Army, as far as I can judge from my knowledge.
Q On that occasion you said you had heard of the Division Order about the catching of the Jews?
A Yes, catching of Jews who were supposed to be sent to a ghetto later on.
Q From the documents submitted in this trial I think I can presume that action occurred very much later and then were carried out by the Special Einsatzgruppen.
A But it did start then.
Q As early as that period, but it was never the task of the combat units to do these things.
A Well, the combat units were fighting and therefore they couldn't find the time to do these things, but the Administrative Services were not a combat unit. They worked simply on supplying the Viking Division with food and clothes, and so forth.
Q Do you mean to say that the Supply units had been given the order to accommodate Jews in ghettos?
A They had not been given the order, but one might assume that when Jews were used to do some work they were then gathered together and concentrated into a ghetto.
Q Where could one find a ghetto so quickly?
A The same had happened at Lemberg.
Q How do you mean?
A In Lemberg a ghetto was established.
Q You mean they were to be sent to Lemberg?
A I assume so, yes, because I passed through Lemberg when I was a supply driver and I saw columns of Jews marched through the city.
Q If I have followed you correctly, the order was to the effect that Jews who were allocated to do some work were not to be released after the work but were to be concentrated in ghetto.
A You are quite right. They were to be concentrated into ghettos.
Q In ghettos, you mean, you said the ghetto at Lemberg?