Q They were on the other side of the bridge then?
A Yes.
Q Then you could consequently pass over the bridge?
A Yes, you could walk over it, but you could not pull vehicles over it.
Q Just how many craters were there?
A I did not count them.
Q How big were the craters?
A They were the usual size of bombed craters -- they were about the width of a road.
Q And how deep were they?
A They were about two and one-half to three meters deep, not deeper.
Q. And these craters were on the right and left of the road or just how were they located?
A. They were towards the citadel, and the citadel was on the left of the road.
Q. And the craters were before the citadel?
A. Yes, they were not directly in front of it, but the craters were caused when the fight took place for the citadel, and here we had this road where the units attacked the citadel, apparently that was what took place because there were so many craters there.
Q. The incidents which you told us about with regard to the craters, did they take place only at one crater?
A. Yes, only at one crater.
Q. You stated that thirty to forty men were shot in this crater; they were pushed in there.
A. They couldn't be shot in there, but they were pushed in, because these people who formed the gauntlet would have been in danger.
Q. You said that they were three meters in width and two and a half meters deep and funnel shaped, and after all it is impossible to put thirty to forty people in there.
A. Oh, yes, they fit in there. If you think of a crater of that size and the people being pushed in it, it is easy to put thirty to forty people in it. When I came there then the crater was about half full.
Q. Now, I have to examine that once more. I just wonder how you can get that many people in there. How far was the crater away from the bridge?
A. It must have been about one hundred or two hundred meters.
Q. One hundred or two hundred meters?
A. Yes, At least it must have been more than one hundred and fifty meters away.
Q. And from the bridge to the crater there was a double gauntlet, is that correct?
A. No, this gauntlet was not very long. It may have been approximately as long as from the seat of the Tribunal up to your desk.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we agree that is about eighteen feet?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Eighteen or twenty feet?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
Q(By Dr. Von Stakelberg) And just where did this gauntlet start? Did it start at the crater or start at the bridge?
A. It started at the crater.
Q. And therefore it went in the direction of the bridge?
A. Yes.
Q. And it then ended out in the free field?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men were included in this gauntlet approximately?
A. They were pretty close to each other so that I can say that there were approximately thirty men standing there.
Q. There were fifteen on each side then?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have stated that the officers of the troop unit were also there?
A. Yes.
Q. Just how many men were there?
A. They consisted of approximately two or three officers from the Mountaineer Division. Then Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel, the camp commander of the bakers' company, was there. Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf, who was in charge of the convey of the bakers' company, and Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty who was in charge of the butchers' company, and Unterstrumfuehrer Metzger. In addition to them later on the Defendants Tscheatscher and Fanslau joined these people.
Q. And you were approximately twenty meters away, twenty to thirty meters?
A. Yes, I was twenty to thirty meters away, together with other soldiers who were watching the incident.
Q. And you were standing in the direction towards the bridge away from the crater?
A. Yes.
Q. And between you the crater there was a gauntlet?
A. Just how do you mean that?
Q. What I mean is you were standing in such a way that between you and the crater the gauntlet ran, which consisted of thirty men.
A. No, we were able to see the area of the crater and the gauntlet exactly.
Q. You were between the gauntlet and the bridge?
A. Yes.
Q. And then between you and the crater there was a gauntlet?
A. Yes. I was somewhat to the left of the gauntlet. This was not in an exact line from me to the crater through the gauntlet. I was not in a precise line from the bridge to the crater, and I was not standing precisely between the gauntlet and the bridge, but I was somewhat to the left.
Q. And you can recall precisely the persons whom you listed here, and that you saw them there?
A. Yes.
Q. First of all my attention is drawn to Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf. His name is not known at all. Who is he?
A. Either his name is Stumpfnagel or Stumpf. It was an Obersturmfuehrer with a similar name as being in charge of the convey of the bakers' company.
Q. However, you can't recall the exact name?
A. No, The man in charge of the bakers' company was Obersturm fuehrer Braunagel.
Also Oberscharfuehrer Sell, who was at the end of the gauntlet, and he would push the Jews into the crater with the butt of a machine gun, pistol.
Q. Now, I must tell you that Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel at that time was in the hospital, And he was not with the unit at all.
A. I don't know that, but I saw Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel myself Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel was sent to the hospital at Lublin and during the advance from Beganovska he returned to the unit. That is as far as I know.
Q. Braunagel, during one of the last days before the combat time, had broken a bone, and he was located in the hospital, and only at Lasowatka he came back to the unit.
A. That escapes my knowledge, but I have seen Braunagel there myself.
Q. And you wish to maintain your testimony that Braunagel was there and you recognized Braunagel?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, please describe to us once more precisely what happened, who assembled the Jews at the bridge and who brought them to the gauntlet. Just how did they get to the crater, and what happened there?
A. No Jews were caught at all at the bridge.
Q. Just where were they found?
A. In the city.
Q. What I am referring to now is---Well, let's clarify what happened there. From the city the Jews were taken out by whom?
A. By members of the butchers' and bakers' company who had gone into the city, contrary to the order that they were not to leave the camp, and they went to the city to loot?
Q. And therefore the Jews were already there when you arrived there?
A. Yes.
Q They were already there?
A Yes.
Q And now you said that at a certain time Jews were taken to the crater, at a certain moment?
A Well, they were seized because they were recognized as being Jews.
Q Because they had been recognized as Jews?
A Yes.
Q And therefore what you mean is before that time they were not recognized as Jews?
A I didn't want to say that at all.
Q What are you trying to say?
A While the looting was going on, the soldiers saw that they were dealing with Jews, and then they used in order to repair the bridge.
Q However, I am now referring to the incidents which happened at the bridge.
A You asked me where the Jews were coming from.
Q I asked you just how the Jews were taken to the crater where from?
A Oh, they were taken from the bridge.
Q From the bridge. And who took from the bridge to the crater?
A They were driven down there.
Q By whom?
A By members of the Mountaineer Division who were located there, also by members of the SS who were located on the other side of the bridge.
Q Was everybody just pushing these people on at they wanted to; was it disorganized?
A Yes, they just did it arbitrarily.
Q. Somebody must have given the orders for this construction enterprise?
A. Of course, and I assume that the company commander of the Mountaineers' Company did that.
Q. You mean the man who was in charge of these Mountaineers?
A. Whether he did that I can't say. I assume that but I can't claim it for certain. The Mountaineer Division and the Mountaineer Company were the only combat unit around there.
Q. However, you have stated that you remained on that spot for two hours?
A. Yes.
Q. And for three-quarters of an hour you watched this incident rather closely, and after all you must have noticed who issued the orders there.
A. What orders? Whoever saw the incidents that took place there knows that no orders were issued, but that the troops carried out this matter arbitrarily. At that time there was such a rumor prevailing that Standartenfuehrer Meckele had been shot.
Q. No, we are talking about orders now. We are not talking about Meckele now. That will come later on. What I would like to know is this: According to whose plan this bridge was repaired, who was responsible for this repair?
A. I don't know that. The bridge was repaired so that the units could advance.
Q. Who was responsible for that?
A. Well, apparently those people who had to see to it that the bridge was repaired.
Q. Yes, that is what I want you to tell me. Who was that?
A. I don't know.
Q. However, if you stood at the bridge for three-quarters of an hour, didn't you hear anybody who gave any orders?
A. There were hardly any officers at the bridge. The officers were in the area and in the city.
Q. Well, there may have been non-commissioned officers or sergeants.
A. Well, nobody issued any orders.
Q. Did everybody work?
A. Just as he wanted to ; yes.
Q. Please describe to us just how this work was carried out. I can't imagine.
A. Well, the Jews were told to do this work. They were driven to work, and they had to bring logs from the city.
Q. Now, you say yourself that they were directed into this work. Who directed their work; who drove them to work?
A. The persons who were standing at the bridge; the soldiers.
Q. Did every soldier have a Jew to take care of?
A. No, the soldiers were only there to supervise the work. Apparently the order was given that they were to see to it that none of the Jews escaped.
Q. And these Jews obtained their timber from where?
A. From the city limits, because the city was located on higher ground than the swamp.
Q. And were there logs laying around?
A. Whether they were ready for this purpose or not, I don't know. However, boulders were laying around there. Perhaps they were there before the Red Army had left.
Q. And who brought the Jews from the bridge to the crater?
A. They were not taken there at all. They were just driven forward. When one of them collapsed and could not work any more, then he was pushed ahead with a rifle butt, and then he was chased toward the crater. It was impossible for him to escape because the entire area was occupied by Germans.
Q. Didn't any Jew try to escape?
A. No.
Q. And all of them ran immediately towards the gauntlet when they received the first rifle butt?
A. Yes, they ran towards it. Perhaps they assumed they were only to run the gauntlet, and they suspected they were only to be beaten up, because of course when they stood at the side of the crater and they saw the dead members of their race in the crater, then they became horrified, and they tried to escape, and then Oberscharfuehrer Sell would push them into the crater.
Q. Didn't the people hear that shooting was going on there?
A. Naturally, of course they heard the shooting. However, whether the Jews in their anxiety -- what the Jews thought in their anxiety is very hard to determine.
Q. Yes. However, that shooting went on in any case; that could be heard?
A. Yes, we could hear that. Whether the Jews heard that, I don't know. After all, when you are very anxious and nervous you are liable to hear less than other people.
Q. Therefore, your assumption that the Jews believed that they were only to run a gauntlet is not very credible, is it?
A. To what extent?
Q. Well, if they heard that shooting was going on there.
A. I want to emphasize that from my own experience I know that when a person is very much afraid he hears less than another person, and the assumption is reasonable that the Jews only thought they would run a gauntlet because they were horrified when they looked in the crater.
Q. It is your opinion, therefore, that the shooting could be heard but the Jews didn't hear it?
A. Yes, the Jews in their very great fear wouldn't hear it.
Q. Very well. Now, please tell us about the other incident. Just when did the two defendants go together to the crater?
A. They probably walked through the area after they had accomplished their deed at the bridge. Whether they went there together, I don't know. I only saw that they stood next to the crater.
Q. But you didn't observe just how they went there?
A. No, I didn't see how they came there. I only saw them standing at the crater.
Q. You didn't observe how they left?
A. No.
Q. Therefore, you don't know how long they stayed there?
A. I think that they must have been there at the crater approximately for twenty minutes, because they were still there when I left. A short time later Fanslau must have gone on when he was able to get his passenger car, because suddenly he was gone together with his vehicle. I can remember that very well.
A. And now you were twenty to thirty meters away, and just what did you see from that distance? Please tell us once more.
A. I saw that Tschentscher, Fanslau, Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel and Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf or Stumpfnagel, Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty and Untersturmfuehrer Metzger and two or three officers from the Mountaineer Division participated in the shootings, yes.
Q. Please tell us from what moment on did you see the Defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher there?
A. When I came there?
Q. No, you stated before you didn't see how the two came there.
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't see that?
A. No, I didn't see that.
Q. When you did see them there, did they have pistols in their hands then, or were they drawing their pistols?
A. Yes, they had pistols in their hands.
Q. How were they standing to you? Were they facing you?
A. Yes, they were facing me, because the crater was here (indicating), the gauntlet was running this way, and we were standing approximately there, and around the crater the officers were standing around in a semicircle.
Q. And when you looked there, the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher stood already there?
A. Yes.
Q. And each of them had a pistol in his hand?
A. Yes, each of them held a pistol in his hand. I saw Tschentscher when he changed a clip.
Q. And you say that you watched this for twenty minutes?
A. Yes. It must have been twenty minutes.
Q. Did you see that the defendant Fanslau fired a gun?
A. Yes, I was able to see that. When a hand shoots, then there is a recoil and the hand is thrown back a little bit, and the hand raises up for a second.
Q. And did the defendant Fanslau constantly fire a gun during these twenty minutes?
A. No. A non-commissioned officer from the Mountaineers would stand at the side of the crater, and he would point to the Jews who were still moving. That could also be clearly seen from a distance because this non-commissioned officer was closest to us.
Q. And how many times did the defendant Fanslau fire?
A. I can't give you an exact number. I did not see how the defendant Fanslau changed his clip.
Q. Are you referring now to how many times you saw his hand recoil?
A. Well, that was more than three or four times.
Q. I would like to hear something from you about the other incident which took place before, as you say. I am now referring to the Jew who allegedly was thrown into the swamp.
A. He was not thrown into the swamp. He was sort of sliding in there slowly from the end of the bridge.
Q. Please describe this incident to us precisely.
A. One of the Jews had realized that it was of no use to continue to work, and he probably thought that something terrible would happen to him, because he had already been beaten and tortured while he was working. Suddenly he threw down the log which he was carrying, or this lumber. He threw it down and then the soldiers who were supervising the work beat him up. Then in order to complete the torture the defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau took the Jew under his arms and they slowly let him slide down from the end of the bridge. The Jew immediately begged them to shoot him immediately. However, they let him slide down into the swamp. Slowly they let him sink into the swamp gradually, until the Jew, in his over great anxiety, because he was afraid of suffocation, begged them, and then they shot at him. They fired several shots, and I can say that each of them fired at least twelve shots at the Jew.
Q. Twelve shots each?
A. Two shots.
Q. Oh, two shots?
A. Yes, two.
Q. Where were you standing while this incident took place?
A. I was approximately three to four meters away from where this thing took place.
Q. I want you to say where on the bridge.
A. No, I was on the other side of the bridge.
Q. That was not on the side where the citadel was?
A. No, I was at the side of Zclozow.
Q. You were on the side where your vehicles were standing?
A. Yes.
Q. Where, precisely, were you standing?
A. Approximately three to four meters in direction.
Q. Well, between you and the bridge what was there?
A. No, I was between the bridge and Fanslau's car.
Q. Very well, and you were standing in the middle of the road?
A. No, I was standing at the side of the road.
Q. And around you all this activity was going on?
A. No, there was no activity going on there, because everyone concerned was looking at the spectacle. Some people would actually make remarks, either cynically or that they felt pity for the Jews.
Q. And where were the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher standing?
A. They were standing directly at the edge of the bridge, on the side of Zclozow.
Q. They were standing directly next to you?
A. No, they were not next to me, because they were three or four meters away, but they were in my direct proximity.
Q. And the two of them were standing together?
A. There was perhaps a distance of from at least three-quarters to one meter between the two.
Q. And where was the Jew whom they seized?
A. Well, he was down there in the swamp.
Q. Before they seized him?
A. Well, he was about to carry logs.
Q. But where was he locally? Was he on the bridge, before the bridge?
A. He was before the bridge when he was seized, and that is where he threw down the log.
Q. Where was he, around one of the trucks, or where?
A. He was on the side of the street, because they could not walk along the middle of the road, and he must have been near the head of the column.
He was still ahead of my truck.
Q. Therefore he was on the other side of you. Then the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher--
A. He came from the border of the city with the logs, and he walked up to about the head of the supply column, so then he probably thought it was of no use any more, and he just threw down the log, so that he was on this side, between the bridge and Zclozow.
Q. He threw down the log, and where did the log roll to?
A. Well, it remained lying around the street, for a four-edged log does not roll.
Q. What did he do then?
A. What did the Jew do? He just remained standing there.
Q. With the log?
A. Yes. First he tried to kneel down in order to make believe that he was exhausted. However, I don't think that he was exhausted.
Q. He was not exhausted?
A. No.
Q. And he threw the log down and then he remained standing next to it?
A. Yes. He wanted to kneel down, but perhaps he was unsuccessful at doing so, and he was driven up again with rifle butts by a mountaineer.
Q. How was it that the Mountaineer Division was located on that spot? How were members of that division standing there?
A. Well, they could not stand on the bridge because the bridge was being repaired. They were just standing around the area of the bridge. I have stated that from the very beginning.
Q. Then did the Jew throw down his log next to a mountaineer?
A. No, he was not standing directly next to a mountaineer. He did not throw the log down directly before a mountaineer, but he threw it down in such a way that it drew people's attention, because he didn't let the log slide down, but he lifted it off his shoulder and dropped it down with a very swift movement.
Q. Then he remained standing next to it until a mountaineer came, and what did the mountaineer do?
A. Well, he tried to kneel down, or lie down, and when he tried to do that, the mountaineer hit him with his rifle. Well, he hit him with the butt of his carbine.
Q. With the butt?
A. Yes.
Q. He hit him back in the area of his kidneys and into the back of his neck?
A. Yes.
Q. What did the Jew do then?
A. Well, he remained standing, and like all Jews he said in Yiddish, "Comrade, comrade, I can't go on any more." These were the words which they used to say, "I don't feel well; I can't."
Q. But you say you could see from looking at him that it was not true?
A. Well, if he had been exhausted, he would have let the log slide down, but the way he did it you could see that he just dropped it sharply.
Q. And he said that, and what did the mountaineer answer him?
A. The mountaineer just hit him up and he called him "You pig".
Q. And then the Jew said that he couldn't go on any longer?
A. He said, "I can't go on any longer, comrade."
Q. And what happened then?
A. Well, they continued to mistreat him.
Q. Just how? Please give me greater particulars.
A. They beat up all the parts of his body.
Q. By whom?
A. By the mountaineers.
Q. By several now?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did they come from?
A. Well, they were always standing around the vicinity of the bridge. I have stated before that there were approximately fifteen mountaineers standing around the vicinity of the bridge.
Q. Did they observe everything that went on? Did they see that he threw the log down? First of all there was only one mountaineer there, you say.
A. He gave an order. He told the truth, and whatever a German soldier says in that case is considered the truth, and whatever the Jew said is a lie.
Q. What did the German soldier say?
A. He says, "You don't want to work any more." He says, "Well, you can go on, but you don't want to work any more."
Q. What happened then?
A. Then the other soldiers came there. They asked why this man did not go on working any more, and then the mountaineer must have told them just why this Jew did not continue his work, and then this torture started anew.
Q. You were standing next to it. You say he must have said that. You must have heard him say it.
A. Well, with about six or seven people all talking at the same time there you can't say exactly what is being said. However, he must have said that because what happened afterwards was the drowning of the Jew, and several pitying remarks which several of the mountaineers made just gave an explanation for that, because the mountaineer said that if he had not thrown the log down this wouldn't have happened.
Q. And how did the defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher come to the Jew, or how did the Jew get to them?
A. They were standing next to their vehicles, and they were talking to each other. Well, this incident must have entitled them to find out what was going on, and they joined the group, and then when they were told that the Jew had thrown the log down-
Q. Just a moment. You stated that they were standing next to their vehicles?
A. Yes, they were standing by their vehicle, yes.
Q. Fanslau and Tschentscher?
A. Yes.
Q. May I put to you that a few minutes ago you have stated that the two were standing at the bridge?
A. The bridge and the vehicles were approximately four to five meters from each other.
Q. Just a moment, just a moment. You have stated that they were standing near your vehicle.
A. Not near my vehicle. They were standing near their vehicles. They were standing near their own vehicles. I did not mean they were standing near my vehicle, but they were standing near their vehicle.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess until quarter to two.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1355 nours, 19 August 1947).
THE MARSHALL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BELZER (Counsel for defendant Sommer): May it please the Court, I should like to inform the Tribunal that tne witness Sanner, who I have been allowed for cross-examination, has arrived here from Munich. He has told me that it is an urgent necessity for him to return to Munich. I am informing the Court of this, and I wonder whether it would not be useful to follow up the examination of this witness with the cross-examination of witness Sanner.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you say, Mr. Robbins? No objection?
MR. ROBBINS: It is all right.
THE PRESIDENT: That gives Dr. Hoffmann more time; he needs it. And what about Wolff?
MR. ROBBINS: Schwarz.
THE PRESIDENT: Schwarz.
MR. ROBBINS: We learned yesterday that he hasn't been in Dachau for some time. He has been in Ludwigsburg, and arrangements have been made to get him here as soon as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is Ludwigsburg?
MR. ROBBINS: I have no idea.
INTERPRETER: It is near Stuttgart.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in Europe?
Well, you may prepare to call your witness following this one. That will be some time tomorrow. By the way, it is the plan of the Tribunal to recess tomorrow at the conclusion of the judgment in Case 1 for just a short time. It will probably be about eleven o'clock.
We will know more definitely tomorrow. But we will resume these sessions immediately after that.
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honors please, Judge Musmanno suggested a moment ago that it would be helpful to the Court if the witness would draw a little sketch of this lay-out near Zclozow, including the citadel, the swamp, the bridge, a and so forth.
THR PRESIDENT: Has he done so?
MR. FULKERSON: No, sir, but we can do it now, if you would like.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Nothing elaborate, and nothing that should take time.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
(Witness draws sketch on witness stand)
THE PRESIDENT: Marshall, help defendant Vogt from the courtroom.
(Marshall escorts defendant Vogt from the defendants' box out of the courtroom.
GUNTHER OTTO - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. VON STACKELBURG (Counsel for defendant Fanslau):
Q. Witness, before the recess we stopped when you described the incident of the Jew who had dropped his timber and was now being dragged up again by the mountaineers.
A. Yes.
Q. You said that defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau had been standing at their cars at the time.
A. Yes.
Q. And that the Jew was located at the same level of your car.
A. Well, let us say in the middle, between my car and the staff car.
Q. Now, how did the two defendants go to the Jew, or how did the Jew go to the defendants?