A Mostly he had to do the liaison between the Divisional Staff and the Administrative Agency. However, whenever we left early in the morning, then he usually would help to wake up the driver, and went to the windows of the cars.
Q How as to the incident at Zclozow, on what river is Zclozow located?
A I don't know the name of the river. I was unable to determine that the regular river passed through the city, because this was a regular swamp hole.
Q How big was this bridge that you were referring to?
A It was only three to four meters.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Wide or deep?
THE WITNESS: Wide.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Just how broad was it?
A In the range of crossing that was the span of the bridge, which amounted to from three to four meters.
Q That was three to four meters?
A Yes.
Q How far would you estimate that would be in this room?
A Well, from the edge here up to the first bench.
Q That was the entire crossing where you became stuck?
A Yes, and the bridge was damaged as the result of the large amount of traffic and heavy trucks which passed over the bridge. The bridge was not one of those which can be found in Germany, but was a wooden bridge.
Q And did you say it was not a river, or nothing of that sort, but it was purely a swamp hole then?
A It was a swamp hole, yes.
Q Then could the vehicles drive around this swamp hole?
A No.
Q Well, just how big was this swamp hole?
A Well, I did not size that up precisely because I did not measure it. I did not walk around it.
Q And Zclozow is also located at or on a railway line?
A I did not see the railway line, we passed through the town and stopped down there at the bridge. I only know that Zclozow has a citadelle.
Q Therefore, you came from Lemberg, and you passed, through Zclozow in just where this swamp hole was located? Where was the swamp hole located?
A It was between the city and the citadelle.
Q Well, this citadelle was leying in the direction of Tarnopol?
A Yes.
Q And you say that the whole width of the swamp hole around there was three to four meters, but that you can not recall the length?
A The width and the length of this swamp hole I can not recall, because I did not measure it, or stepping it off around there. The bridge was only crossing over the most narrow spot of the swamp hole.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness indicated a distance a while ago of about ten feet in the courtroom.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Is the vicinity of this city very swampy?
A Yes.
Q Are there many swamps in the vicinity?
A I don't know that. We did not stay there very long.
Q I have looked at the man and here I can not find that any swamps are listed for that area?
A It may be true, because this swamp probably is not very big.
Q Now, please describe the situation at the bridge to us. You came from Zclozow, you left the city?
A Yes.
Q And just how big is Zclozow?
A I believe it was approximately ten to fifteen thousand inhabitants.
Q And the road on which you were driving, was it a road of cobblestones?
A It was just a country road of the second or third class, as they are usually called in Germany.
Q It did not have any cobblestones then?
A No, it did not.
Q Then you left the town and who was waiting in front of the bridge?
A The entire food column had to stop before the bridge, because the bridge could not be passed any more by vehicles, and first had to be repaired.
Q You stated that also other units were standing there?
A Yes, the First Mountaineer Division.
Q The entire Division?
A No, only members of that division who were also engaged in combat.
Q Approximately how many men were waiting in front of the bridge when you came up there?
A There were approximately ten to fifteen German soldiers at the bridge, and they were wearing their carbines, and then they saw to it that the work was properly carried out.
Q Ten to fifteen soldiers?
A Yes.
Q And how many stopped before the bridge?
A Well, the entire food-office. The entire Supply Depot.
Q And units of the Mountaineer Division did not stay here?
A No, no, not one vehicle of the Mountaineer Division was waiting in front of the bridge.
Q Was there any vehicles there from the division?
A No.
Q Therefore, just how many men were there from the Mountaineer Division?
A There were at the most fifteen men waiting at the bridge.
Q And there was none at all before the bridge?
A There were soldiers at the bridge.
Q What I would like to know is just how many members of the Mountaineer Division altogether were there on the bridge, or in front of the bridge or before the bridge, or behind the bridge?
A I can not give you any precise estimate, because it is not to my knowledge, because I only took a very short glance at the matter.
Q Well, you did not only throw a short glance there at the matter, did you, because you stayed there for quite awhile, didn't you?
A Yes, naturally, but at the moment I did not look at the men there, or precisely did not count them.
Q You did not think to count them, but that you just want to give us a picture of it?
A Sure, I can estimate that at least one war time company was there around the bridge.
Q And they were assembled around the bridge, weren't they?
A Yes, they were in the area around the bridge, and on the bridge.
Q And in a wartime company, just how many men does that comprise of?
AApproximately one-hundred fifty to one-hundred eighty men, if one takes the combat unit.
Q Well, that is what comprises a company in a combat unit?
A Yes.
Q You say that approximately 150 to 180 men of the Mountaineers were there?
A Yes.
Q And just how strong were the other units who were in that vicinity?
A The Butcher's Platoon around approximately seventyfive men, and they were located in the upper part of the swamp near the citadelle, and the baker's Company also had approximately 110 to 180 men.
Q How was is that the Supply Column was near the citadelle. They must have been beyond the swamp then?
A The Supply Column was not near the citadelle. Only near the Butcher's Platoon and the Baker's Company, were they.
Q Had they already passed the bridge?
A Yes, on the day before they had already moved to that locality.
Q Now can you tell me just how many people were sent to the bridge, or with you at the bridge at the same time that you were there, and how many were standing around the bridge when you were there?
A The food column consisted of approximately 100 to 150 people. They were standing near the bridge with their vehicles. There were only very few people from the food column at the bridge because the drivers had to look after the vehicles.
Q Now, therefore, there were quite a lot of traffic near the bridge?
A Yes.
Q And there were a lot of people around there?
A Yes.
Q There was a real large group of people around there?
A No, not in particular.
Q And just how did you come up there? You say there was a vehicle ahead of you?
A The vehicle ahead of me, was driven by Rottenfuehrer Wittitsch who was the driver of Tschentscher.
Q That is to say, Tschentscher's car was right in front of you?
A Yes. No, that was the staff car vehicle.
Q Now who was ahead of Tschentscher?
A Not any other vehicle.
Q Not any other vehicle?
A Yes. He was the driver of the Mercedes.
Q And then there was Fanslau. Is it not quite unusual that the administrative officer drives behind after the division is already advanced quite a bit, and after the Butcher Platoon and the Bakers Company have already moved up ahead?
A Well, that was all in the operation. Probably it was to carry out some work, or the Butcher's Platoon was not operating yet, and had not started itself to move as yet, the supply column was actually operating.
Q You mean, with regard to the locality now, it was usual that the Butcher and the Baker Companies were ahead of you?
A Yes.
Q And behind you there was the Administrative Officer?
A No. Tschentscher was in charge of the Supply column, which was operating, and Fanslau is the Administrative Officer also, who had to direct the use of the Supply column, and not only the work of the Butcher Platoon and the Baker Company.
Q However, you will have to admit to me that at least it is unusual?
A No, I don't have to admit that at all, that corresponds with the administrative division, to the custom of the division.
Q You have told me before, yourself, that the defendant Fanslau normally would be ahead, and would have the liaison of the Divisional Staff?
A Yes, but he also had to go back in order to carry out this liaison, probably by establishing the liaison for the drivers from the Divisional Staff and the Administrative Agency.
Q So, well, the defendant Fanslau came back after you already had been in front?
A Yes, apparently, and I assume that very early in the morning between three and four in the morning he was located with the Supply column as he woke us up in the morning. I was out in front of the column with a truck loaded with food, and I was awakened since I was the driver of the first vehicle by Fanslau himself.
Q Where were the cars of the Supply column located?
A They were included in the organization of the Supply column, with the medical officer who was around there. The medical officer sometimes would be the center column, and sometimes at the head. Then we had the treasury -- the field treasury. There was always some one in the column according to the way the column was organized each time, just when the Supply column was enroute.
Q Now when you came to the bridge, which was the first vehicle that stopped?
A That was the defendant's car, Fanslau.
Q And then came the car of Tschentscher?
A Yes.
Q And then his staff car and then your car, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Just what was the width of the road?
A The width of the road was a little smaller than the distance from the witness to the first bench, that is, so that two vehicles could pass each other, and they could by-pass each other on the road.
Q Were you directly or right behind each other?
A Yes.
Q And did you remain with your vehicle?
A No. I went up ahead, went to see what was delaying the movement of the column.
Q And did you then return to your vehicle?
A Yes, I returned. And there I watched the civilians at work.
Q From your car?
A Yes. Yes. I was standing near thes car. I was standing next to the car.
Q Is not the area there very flat?
A Yes. You can look over the entire area from the bridge, and the citadelle and everything can be recognized from there.
Q However, you were not standing on any heigth where you could observe it?
A Yes, it was just even. I was just located in the same position as the others in the cars were standing, in no higher or level spot at all.
Q How long did you stop at that place?
A For two hours.
Q And for the entire two hours the defendant Fanslau was there also?
A I saw him there for approximately three-quarters of an hour. Well, that is the highest number of minutes I can give you here.
And then I also left and went back to my vehicle.
Q I thought that you had stayed with your vehicle?
AAfter I had oriented myself upon return to my vehicle then I again left my vehicle, so that I was able to look at the whole matter.
Q Where were you standing?
A Besides the bridge, there was a little footpath, which lead to the area that was not swampy any more, and I went through this footpath together with some other people.
Q You went over there. Where did you go to?
A I went in the direction of the citadelle.
Q Then you went away from the bridge?
A Yes.
Q From what point did you make your observation?
A I was approximately twenty to thirty meters from the bridge when I saw the first incident. I saw the first incident when the Jew was pushed into the swamp at a distance of from four to five meters.
Q You stated that you were twenty meters away from the citadelle, that was towards your car?
A I was going from the car to the citadelle.
Q I don't understand that. If you were going from the car to the citadelle, it must be directly at the bridge?
A No, I was going towards the citadelle. I was on the footpath.
Q And then you went twenty meters away from the bridge?
A No, I was twenty meters away from the craters.
Q Where were these craters?
A They were located at the slope, which led up to the citadelle.
Q They were on the other side of the bridge then?
A Yes.
Q Then you could consequently pass over the bridge?
A Yes, you could walk over it, but you could not pull vehicles over it.
Q Just how many craters were there?
A I did not count them.
Q How big were the craters?
A They were the usual size of bombed craters -- they were about the width of a road.
Q And how deep were they?
A They were about two and one-half to three meters deep, not deeper.
Q. And these craters were on the right and left of the road or just how were they located?
A. They were towards the citadel, and the citadel was on the left of the road.
Q. And the craters were before the citadel?
A. Yes, they were not directly in front of it, but the craters were caused when the fight took place for the citadel, and here we had this road where the units attacked the citadel, apparently that was what took place because there were so many craters there.
Q. The incidents which you told us about with regard to the craters, did they take place only at one crater?
A. Yes, only at one crater.
Q. You stated that thirty to forty men were shot in this crater; they were pushed in there.
A. They couldn't be shot in there, but they were pushed in, because these people who formed the gauntlet would have been in danger.
Q. You said that they were three meters in width and two and a half meters deep and funnel shaped, and after all it is impossible to put thirty to forty people in there.
A. Oh, yes, they fit in there. If you think of a crater of that size and the people being pushed in it, it is easy to put thirty to forty people in it. When I came there then the crater was about half full.
Q. Now, I have to examine that once more. I just wonder how you can get that many people in there. How far was the crater away from the bridge?
A. It must have been about one hundred or two hundred meters.
Q. One hundred or two hundred meters?
A. Yes, At least it must have been more than one hundred and fifty meters away.
Q. And from the bridge to the crater there was a double gauntlet, is that correct?
A. No, this gauntlet was not very long. It may have been approximately as long as from the seat of the Tribunal up to your desk.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we agree that is about eighteen feet?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Eighteen or twenty feet?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
Q(By Dr. Von Stakelberg) And just where did this gauntlet start? Did it start at the crater or start at the bridge?
A. It started at the crater.
Q. And therefore it went in the direction of the bridge?
A. Yes.
Q. And it then ended out in the free field?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men were included in this gauntlet approximately?
A. They were pretty close to each other so that I can say that there were approximately thirty men standing there.
Q. There were fifteen on each side then?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have stated that the officers of the troop unit were also there?
A. Yes.
Q. Just how many men were there?
A. They consisted of approximately two or three officers from the Mountaineer Division. Then Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel, the camp commander of the bakers' company, was there. Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf, who was in charge of the convey of the bakers' company, and Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty who was in charge of the butchers' company, and Unterstrumfuehrer Metzger. In addition to them later on the Defendants Tscheatscher and Fanslau joined these people.
Q. And you were approximately twenty meters away, twenty to thirty meters?
A. Yes, I was twenty to thirty meters away, together with other soldiers who were watching the incident.
Q. And you were standing in the direction towards the bridge away from the crater?
A. Yes.
Q. And between you the crater there was a gauntlet?
A. Just how do you mean that?
Q. What I mean is you were standing in such a way that between you and the crater the gauntlet ran, which consisted of thirty men.
A. No, we were able to see the area of the crater and the gauntlet exactly.
Q. You were between the gauntlet and the bridge?
A. Yes.
Q. And then between you and the crater there was a gauntlet?
A. Yes. I was somewhat to the left of the gauntlet. This was not in an exact line from me to the crater through the gauntlet. I was not in a precise line from the bridge to the crater, and I was not standing precisely between the gauntlet and the bridge, but I was somewhat to the left.
Q. And you can recall precisely the persons whom you listed here, and that you saw them there?
A. Yes.
Q. First of all my attention is drawn to Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf. His name is not known at all. Who is he?
A. Either his name is Stumpfnagel or Stumpf. It was an Obersturmfuehrer with a similar name as being in charge of the convey of the bakers' company.
Q. However, you can't recall the exact name?
A. No, The man in charge of the bakers' company was Obersturm fuehrer Braunagel.
Also Oberscharfuehrer Sell, who was at the end of the gauntlet, and he would push the Jews into the crater with the butt of a machine gun, pistol.
Q. Now, I must tell you that Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel at that time was in the hospital, And he was not with the unit at all.
A. I don't know that, but I saw Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel myself Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel was sent to the hospital at Lublin and during the advance from Beganovska he returned to the unit. That is as far as I know.
Q. Braunagel, during one of the last days before the combat time, had broken a bone, and he was located in the hospital, and only at Lasowatka he came back to the unit.
A. That escapes my knowledge, but I have seen Braunagel there myself.
Q. And you wish to maintain your testimony that Braunagel was there and you recognized Braunagel?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, please describe to us once more precisely what happened, who assembled the Jews at the bridge and who brought them to the gauntlet. Just how did they get to the crater, and what happened there?
A. No Jews were caught at all at the bridge.
Q. Just where were they found?
A. In the city.
Q. What I am referring to now is---Well, let's clarify what happened there. From the city the Jews were taken out by whom?
A. By members of the butchers' and bakers' company who had gone into the city, contrary to the order that they were not to leave the camp, and they went to the city to loot?
Q. And therefore the Jews were already there when you arrived there?
A. Yes.
Q They were already there?
A Yes.
Q And now you said that at a certain time Jews were taken to the crater, at a certain moment?
A Well, they were seized because they were recognized as being Jews.
Q Because they had been recognized as Jews?
A Yes.
Q And therefore what you mean is before that time they were not recognized as Jews?
A I didn't want to say that at all.
Q What are you trying to say?
A While the looting was going on, the soldiers saw that they were dealing with Jews, and then they used in order to repair the bridge.
Q However, I am now referring to the incidents which happened at the bridge.
A You asked me where the Jews were coming from.
Q I asked you just how the Jews were taken to the crater where from?
A Oh, they were taken from the bridge.
Q From the bridge. And who took from the bridge to the crater?
A They were driven down there.
Q By whom?
A By members of the Mountaineer Division who were located there, also by members of the SS who were located on the other side of the bridge.
Q Was everybody just pushing these people on at they wanted to; was it disorganized?
A Yes, they just did it arbitrarily.
Q. Somebody must have given the orders for this construction enterprise?
A. Of course, and I assume that the company commander of the Mountaineers' Company did that.
Q. You mean the man who was in charge of these Mountaineers?
A. Whether he did that I can't say. I assume that but I can't claim it for certain. The Mountaineer Division and the Mountaineer Company were the only combat unit around there.
Q. However, you have stated that you remained on that spot for two hours?
A. Yes.
Q. And for three-quarters of an hour you watched this incident rather closely, and after all you must have noticed who issued the orders there.
A. What orders? Whoever saw the incidents that took place there knows that no orders were issued, but that the troops carried out this matter arbitrarily. At that time there was such a rumor prevailing that Standartenfuehrer Meckele had been shot.
Q. No, we are talking about orders now. We are not talking about Meckele now. That will come later on. What I would like to know is this: According to whose plan this bridge was repaired, who was responsible for this repair?
A. I don't know that. The bridge was repaired so that the units could advance.
Q. Who was responsible for that?
A. Well, apparently those people who had to see to it that the bridge was repaired.
Q. Yes, that is what I want you to tell me. Who was that?
A. I don't know.
Q. However, if you stood at the bridge for three-quarters of an hour, didn't you hear anybody who gave any orders?
A. There were hardly any officers at the bridge. The officers were in the area and in the city.
Q. Well, there may have been non-commissioned officers or sergeants.
A. Well, nobody issued any orders.
Q. Did everybody work?
A. Just as he wanted to ; yes.
Q. Please describe to us just how this work was carried out. I can't imagine.
A. Well, the Jews were told to do this work. They were driven to work, and they had to bring logs from the city.
Q. Now, you say yourself that they were directed into this work. Who directed their work; who drove them to work?
A. The persons who were standing at the bridge; the soldiers.
Q. Did every soldier have a Jew to take care of?
A. No, the soldiers were only there to supervise the work. Apparently the order was given that they were to see to it that none of the Jews escaped.
Q. And these Jews obtained their timber from where?
A. From the city limits, because the city was located on higher ground than the swamp.
Q. And were there logs laying around?
A. Whether they were ready for this purpose or not, I don't know. However, boulders were laying around there. Perhaps they were there before the Red Army had left.
Q. And who brought the Jews from the bridge to the crater?
A. They were not taken there at all. They were just driven forward. When one of them collapsed and could not work any more, then he was pushed ahead with a rifle butt, and then he was chased toward the crater. It was impossible for him to escape because the entire area was occupied by Germans.
Q. Didn't any Jew try to escape?
A. No.
Q. And all of them ran immediately towards the gauntlet when they received the first rifle butt?
A. Yes, they ran towards it. Perhaps they assumed they were only to run the gauntlet, and they suspected they were only to be beaten up, because of course when they stood at the side of the crater and they saw the dead members of their race in the crater, then they became horrified, and they tried to escape, and then Oberscharfuehrer Sell would push them into the crater.
Q. Didn't the people hear that shooting was going on there?
A. Naturally, of course they heard the shooting. However, whether the Jews in their anxiety -- what the Jews thought in their anxiety is very hard to determine.
Q. Yes. However, that shooting went on in any case; that could be heard?
A. Yes, we could hear that. Whether the Jews heard that, I don't know. After all, when you are very anxious and nervous you are liable to hear less than other people.
Q. Therefore, your assumption that the Jews believed that they were only to run a gauntlet is not very credible, is it?
A. To what extent?
Q. Well, if they heard that shooting was going on there.
A. I want to emphasize that from my own experience I know that when a person is very much afraid he hears less than another person, and the assumption is reasonable that the Jews only thought they would run a gauntlet because they were horrified when they looked in the crater.
Q. It is your opinion, therefore, that the shooting could be heard but the Jews didn't hear it?
A. Yes, the Jews in their very great fear wouldn't hear it.
Q. Very well. Now, please tell us about the other incident. Just when did the two defendants go together to the crater?
A. They probably walked through the area after they had accomplished their deed at the bridge. Whether they went there together, I don't know. I only saw that they stood next to the crater.
Q. But you didn't observe just how they went there?
A. No, I didn't see how they came there. I only saw them standing at the crater.
Q. You didn't observe how they left?
A. No.
Q. Therefore, you don't know how long they stayed there?
A. I think that they must have been there at the crater approximately for twenty minutes, because they were still there when I left. A short time later Fanslau must have gone on when he was able to get his passenger car, because suddenly he was gone together with his vehicle. I can remember that very well.
A. And now you were twenty to thirty meters away, and just what did you see from that distance? Please tell us once more.
A. I saw that Tschentscher, Fanslau, Obersturmfuehrer Braunagel and Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf or Stumpfnagel, Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty and Untersturmfuehrer Metzger and two or three officers from the Mountaineer Division participated in the shootings, yes.
Q. Please tell us from what moment on did you see the Defendants Fanslau and Tschentscher there?
A. When I came there?
Q. No, you stated before you didn't see how the two came there.
A. Yes.