THE PRESIDENT: This testimony is in direct rebuttal of the Defendants' testimony that they knew nothing of the extermination program and had no part in it themselves. This is properly in rebuttal of that defense testimony. You will be given every opportunity to meet it and to crossexamine and to produce testimony in your own behalf, as much as you need to.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, unless I am mistaken, you said yesterday that you were born in Gottesberg in Silesia, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q What was your parents' profession?
A My father was a locksmith.
Q And then you went to Elementary School?
A Yes. Only to Elementary School.
Q Did you pass this school without any hitch?
A Yes.
Q Are you married?
A No.
Q Apart from the punishment you mentioned, did you have a criminal record of any sort?
A No.
Q What did you learn as a profession?
A Nothing at all.
Q How old were you when war broke out?
A 19 years.
Q What did you do after you left your Elementary School?
A I lived for two years with my parents because I didn't join the Hitler Youth.
Q Then in 1940 you were called up, you told us?
A Yes.
Q Were you promoted within the Wehrmacht?
A No.
Q And, after the campaign in the West, you say, you were drafted into the SS?
A Yes.
Q. Were you the only one in your unit?
A Yes.
Q Did that come about?
A I am afraid I don't know the details there, but I may assume that, as a result of my education in 1939, I had been drafted into the SS, particularly into an elite unit which was for the purpose of political training.
Q You said that in 1939 you attempted to evade military service?
A Yes.
Q Were you punished for that? Were you found out?
A No, I was found out, because I was denounced, but I did not receive any punishment.
Q You believe that as a punishment measure you were drafted into a particularly elite unit of the SS?
A Yes.
Q After you had participated in the French Campaign with the Wehrmacht?
A Yes.
Q I don't think that sounds very credible. You were not in the Party nor the Allgemeine SS?
A No.
Q Were you promoted within the SS?
A No.
Q What was your rank at the end?
A I was a cadet. (Staffel Anwarter)
Q How was it that you came from the Leibstandarte to the Viking Division?
AAfter I had become a fully trained chauffeur I was transferred to that Division.
Q Did you make an application for that?
A No.
Q When you were with the Leibstandarte, did you get into trouble?
A No, only when I reported first, I was told that I was to become a good National Socialist.
Q Then you said that in January, 1942, you were arrested?
A Yes.
Q But before then you said you had taken all the necessary precautions when you deserted and were absent without leave that you didn't catch anybody's attention?
A But the Secret Field Police had found out that there was a secret group of conspirators in Dnjepropetrowsk who were enlightening German soldiers about the true war aims of their leaders. On the basis of that activity, for we had circulated slogans, for instance, "Finish all this". "Only pure truths". A so-called mass-desertation came about. We found out, for instance, that over 2,000 people had deserted in that period of time from that area.
Q And you were arrested within the scope of the action directed against this, were you?
A Yes.
Q Then I didn't quite understand, why did you shoot through your hand?
A In order to make the attempt to get my pay book back from the man in charge of the hospital so that I could escape again with all the papers.
Q You told us that you had been sentenced to death?
A Yes.
Q And then later on the court on the basis of the fact that you had not been a voluntary member of the SS -
A On the basis that I had not sworn to the SS oath -
Q The sentence was commuted into life sentence?
A Yes.
Q Under German Criminal Law, no court cannot commute sentence which it has pronounced?
A Yes, it can be. The German Penal Law did not coincide with the legal customs observed by the SS. The SS based themselves always on Paragraph 5a of the Special Penal Code issued in the war.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Well, I shall check this.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we take a recess?
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: It has been suggested that there may be some misunderstanding among defense counsel on the question of briefs. We didn't mean to suggest that we don't want briefs. We would be glad to have them if you wish to file them. The only thing we said was that there would be no delay for the purpose of preparing and filing briefs; but if any defense counsel wishes to file a brief at any time before the judgment, the Tribunal will be glad to have the benefit of them. You may do as you like about it.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, I have another question to ask you which refers to the questions I asked you before the recess. After you completed your education, just how old were you?
A. I was fourteen years old.
Q. Just how long did you stay at home?
A. I remained at home until early in 1936.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Then I went to Schneidemuehl in the province of Western Prussia as an agricultural worker.
Q. In 1938 and 1939?
A. In 1938 and 1939 I also worked in agriculture; and early in 1939 I was in the vicinity of Berlin at the Nittelsee. There I also worked on a farm. Then I was conscripted into the military service.
Q. How, I want to refer once more to your death sentence. Was the verdict changed from the death sentence to life-long confinement? Was this verdict changed in the same court session?
A. Yes. The court retired only once more for a short consultation, and then it changed the verdict. The last trial altogether lasted only for twenty minutes.
Q. Was it clear to you that the confinement for life was not a punishment in itself but was only limitation of freedom?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Just a moment, please. I believe the translation is not quite correct. If I am not mistaken, confinement means a stay in jail or in prison, and it includes all kinds of punishment where a person is not at liberty. In the German criminal law court, however, we must make a distinction as to confinement in prison; and here we make a distinction between jail or prison or confinement in a general and protective custody, which is something quite different. Protective custody is the word, yes. Protective custody is used for habitual criminals.
I am unable to look into the matter right now; but this cannot be pronounced at all without any punishment. According to the German law court a verdict for protective custody for life cannot be given without at the same time sentencing the person in an other way too. However, I shall have to investigate that question further, and I shall explain it in detail to this Tribunal.
Q. In any case, what do you maintain?
A. Well, first I was sentenced to death. Then in another session of the Tribunal this punishment was changed to protective custody for life.
Q. Besides this protective custody, no other punishment was imposed?
A. That is correct.
Q. Then you were at Danzig-Matzgau and at Dachau?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you subjected to mistreatment?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you suffer any physical injury as a result of that?
A. Yes, I lost my hearing in part.
Q. Did your memory suffer?
A. No.
Q. Did you suffer any other physical injury?
A. Yes. I suffer from a stomach disease.
Q. What are you doing right now as far as your work is concerned?
A. I am not carrying out any profession at all. It is my profession to be here for the time being, and I am firmly determined that I want to devote myself to politics intellectually because of my very detailed knowledge.
Q. What have you done from 1945 up till now?
A. I was -
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. There are three women in the back row who will behave themselves or leave the courtroom. This is not a motion picture, and it isn't a theater. Stop your laughing and your talking or leave the courtroom.
Q. What did you do from 1945 up till now?
Q What did you do from 1945 up to now?
A I was released at Wasserburg, and then at Wasserburg I was denounced by the people at Wasserburg, and I was arrested as a result of that under the suspicion that I had been a member of the SS. I was sent to jail at Wasserburg, and then to the mental institute at Edelfing. Here my mental condition was to be examined, and my power of memory.
Q Just how long did you remain in the insane asylum?
A One year, exactly from 11 August 1945 to 11 August 1946.
Q That was at Edelfing.
A Yes.
Q And you had stayed from the 2nd of August 1945 until the 11 August 1946. As a witness for this trial you only volunteered in 1947?
A Yes.
Q Just how can it happen that since you had knowledge of such severe crimes, that you did not report as a witness earlier?
A I only heard in the course of this year that Obersturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher and Sturmbannfuehrer Fanslau were indicted for these crimes.
Q When did you hear about that?
A I heard about that on the 15 July 1947, when I saw a placard of the Military Tribunal at Munich, according to which it mentioned that witness are needed for War Crimes Agency against Oswald Pohl, and the offices of the Administrative Main Office, where the pictures of, or the photographs of Fanslau and Tschentscher were on the back.
Q Was this placard containing the picture of the defendants?
A Yes.
Q And also contained the names of all the defendants?
A Yes.
Q And you say that this was at the edge of the former concentration camp for inmates at 64 Goethestrasse in Munich?
A In 64 Goethestrasse.
Q If, however, you read this placard, then you must know that you had to report here, and that you did not have to report at Dachau?
A First I saw notice of that placard from the agency for former concentration camp inmates, and that I should refer to an expert in the welfare agency, and he sent me into War Crimes at Dachau, where I was to inquire whether I should be needed as a witness. The War Crimes at Dachau telephoned to Nurnberg, and I was requested to go to Nurnberg during the night of 17 to 18 July, where I finally arrived.
AAnd the testimony which you have given here, did you recall it from the very beginning in the form as given here, or did your memory have to be refreshed?
A My memory did not have to be refreshed at all, because all of these things remained permanently in my memory. I did not come here to make detailed statements, but I came here for the reasons in order to help in the fact that the guilt of the guilty should be determined, and the increase of these people who are innocent.
Q You stated that you know the defendant Fanslau personally?
A Yes.
Q Where did you meet him?
A I met him in the Administrative Service at Dachau.
Q When was that?
A That was on 25 January 1941.
Q Where was the defendant Fanslau located at the time?
AAt Dachau, at the distribution point of the assignment, the point of assignment center of the detachment which came to Berlin, which was later divided into the Baker's Company and the Butcher's Platoon. Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher and Hauptsturmfuehrer Schenkel were the technical officers of the Administrative Service there.
Q Was the defendant Fanslau then permanently assigned to this unit?
A Yes, he was there as an Administrative Officer at Dachau at the Headquarters, were Pohl was located.
I used to see him there frequently in this region with his driver Heydrich.
Q Then you went to Holberg near Stuttgart?
A Yes.
Q And did the Defendant Fanslau also go there?
A I did not see him there. I did not see the defendant there.
Q How often did you see him at Dachau?
A I must have seen him certainly five or six times.
Q You yourself were then transferred from Holberg to the vicinity of Breslau?
A Yes.
Q Did you see the defendant Fanslau there?
A No.
Q When were you sent into the combat zone?
A Towards the end of June, the division was then sent in the area of Zamosk, Ravaruska and Lemberg.
Q Do you know how long the defendant Fanslau stayed with the Division "Viking".
A I have not any precise knowledge, because from October on I was not in the unit any more. However, I know that up to that date, Fanslau was with the division as Divisional Administrative Officer of the Administrative Service.
THE COURT: What was the date, February or October, the first date?
THE WITNESS: The date?
THE COURT: The dates that the witness serviced with the Division Viking, the Viking Division, that he served with, the witness?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: How long were you with the Viking Division?
THE WITNESS: I was in the Butcher Detail.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Whenever you marched, what was customary? Was the defendant Fanslau always there?
A Mostly he had to do the liaison between the Divisional Staff and the Administrative Agency. However, whenever we left early in the morning, then he usually would help to wake up the driver, and went to the windows of the cars.
Q How as to the incident at Zclozow, on what river is Zclozow located?
A I don't know the name of the river. I was unable to determine that the regular river passed through the city, because this was a regular swamp hole.
Q How big was this bridge that you were referring to?
A It was only three to four meters.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Wide or deep?
THE WITNESS: Wide.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Just how broad was it?
A In the range of crossing that was the span of the bridge, which amounted to from three to four meters.
Q That was three to four meters?
A Yes.
Q How far would you estimate that would be in this room?
A Well, from the edge here up to the first bench.
Q That was the entire crossing where you became stuck?
A Yes, and the bridge was damaged as the result of the large amount of traffic and heavy trucks which passed over the bridge. The bridge was not one of those which can be found in Germany, but was a wooden bridge.
Q And did you say it was not a river, or nothing of that sort, but it was purely a swamp hole then?
A It was a swamp hole, yes.
Q Then could the vehicles drive around this swamp hole?
A No.
Q Well, just how big was this swamp hole?
A Well, I did not size that up precisely because I did not measure it. I did not walk around it.
Q And Zclozow is also located at or on a railway line?
A I did not see the railway line, we passed through the town and stopped down there at the bridge. I only know that Zclozow has a citadelle.
Q Therefore, you came from Lemberg, and you passed, through Zclozow in just where this swamp hole was located? Where was the swamp hole located?
A It was between the city and the citadelle.
Q Well, this citadelle was leying in the direction of Tarnopol?
A Yes.
Q And you say that the whole width of the swamp hole around there was three to four meters, but that you can not recall the length?
A The width and the length of this swamp hole I can not recall, because I did not measure it, or stepping it off around there. The bridge was only crossing over the most narrow spot of the swamp hole.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness indicated a distance a while ago of about ten feet in the courtroom.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Is the vicinity of this city very swampy?
A Yes.
Q Are there many swamps in the vicinity?
A I don't know that. We did not stay there very long.
Q I have looked at the man and here I can not find that any swamps are listed for that area?
A It may be true, because this swamp probably is not very big.
Q Now, please describe the situation at the bridge to us. You came from Zclozow, you left the city?
A Yes.
Q And just how big is Zclozow?
A I believe it was approximately ten to fifteen thousand inhabitants.
Q And the road on which you were driving, was it a road of cobblestones?
A It was just a country road of the second or third class, as they are usually called in Germany.
Q It did not have any cobblestones then?
A No, it did not.
Q Then you left the town and who was waiting in front of the bridge?
A The entire food column had to stop before the bridge, because the bridge could not be passed any more by vehicles, and first had to be repaired.
Q You stated that also other units were standing there?
A Yes, the First Mountaineer Division.
Q The entire Division?
A No, only members of that division who were also engaged in combat.
Q Approximately how many men were waiting in front of the bridge when you came up there?
A There were approximately ten to fifteen German soldiers at the bridge, and they were wearing their carbines, and then they saw to it that the work was properly carried out.
Q Ten to fifteen soldiers?
A Yes.
Q And how many stopped before the bridge?
A Well, the entire food-office. The entire Supply Depot.
Q And units of the Mountaineer Division did not stay here?
A No, no, not one vehicle of the Mountaineer Division was waiting in front of the bridge.
Q Was there any vehicles there from the division?
A No.
Q Therefore, just how many men were there from the Mountaineer Division?
A There were at the most fifteen men waiting at the bridge.
Q And there was none at all before the bridge?
A There were soldiers at the bridge.
Q What I would like to know is just how many members of the Mountaineer Division altogether were there on the bridge, or in front of the bridge or before the bridge, or behind the bridge?
A I can not give you any precise estimate, because it is not to my knowledge, because I only took a very short glance at the matter.
Q Well, you did not only throw a short glance there at the matter, did you, because you stayed there for quite awhile, didn't you?
A Yes, naturally, but at the moment I did not look at the men there, or precisely did not count them.
Q You did not think to count them, but that you just want to give us a picture of it?
A Sure, I can estimate that at least one war time company was there around the bridge.
Q And they were assembled around the bridge, weren't they?
A Yes, they were in the area around the bridge, and on the bridge.
Q And in a wartime company, just how many men does that comprise of?
AApproximately one-hundred fifty to one-hundred eighty men, if one takes the combat unit.
Q Well, that is what comprises a company in a combat unit?
A Yes.
Q You say that approximately 150 to 180 men of the Mountaineers were there?
A Yes.
Q And just how strong were the other units who were in that vicinity?
A The Butcher's Platoon around approximately seventyfive men, and they were located in the upper part of the swamp near the citadelle, and the baker's Company also had approximately 110 to 180 men.
Q How was is that the Supply Column was near the citadelle. They must have been beyond the swamp then?
A The Supply Column was not near the citadelle. Only near the Butcher's Platoon and the Baker's Company, were they.
Q Had they already passed the bridge?
A Yes, on the day before they had already moved to that locality.
Q Now can you tell me just how many people were sent to the bridge, or with you at the bridge at the same time that you were there, and how many were standing around the bridge when you were there?
A The food column consisted of approximately 100 to 150 people. They were standing near the bridge with their vehicles. There were only very few people from the food column at the bridge because the drivers had to look after the vehicles.
Q Now, therefore, there were quite a lot of traffic near the bridge?
A Yes.
Q And there were a lot of people around there?
A Yes.
Q There was a real large group of people around there?
A No, not in particular.
Q And just how did you come up there? You say there was a vehicle ahead of you?
A The vehicle ahead of me, was driven by Rottenfuehrer Wittitsch who was the driver of Tschentscher.
Q That is to say, Tschentscher's car was right in front of you?
A Yes. No, that was the staff car vehicle.
Q Now who was ahead of Tschentscher?
A Not any other vehicle.
Q Not any other vehicle?
A Yes. He was the driver of the Mercedes.
Q And then there was Fanslau. Is it not quite unusual that the administrative officer drives behind after the division is already advanced quite a bit, and after the Butcher Platoon and the Bakers Company have already moved up ahead?
A Well, that was all in the operation. Probably it was to carry out some work, or the Butcher's Platoon was not operating yet, and had not started itself to move as yet, the supply column was actually operating.
Q You mean, with regard to the locality now, it was usual that the Butcher and the Baker Companies were ahead of you?
A Yes.
Q And behind you there was the Administrative Officer?
A No. Tschentscher was in charge of the Supply column, which was operating, and Fanslau is the Administrative Officer also, who had to direct the use of the Supply column, and not only the work of the Butcher Platoon and the Baker Company.
Q However, you will have to admit to me that at least it is unusual?
A No, I don't have to admit that at all, that corresponds with the administrative division, to the custom of the division.
Q You have told me before, yourself, that the defendant Fanslau normally would be ahead, and would have the liaison of the Divisional Staff?
A Yes, but he also had to go back in order to carry out this liaison, probably by establishing the liaison for the drivers from the Divisional Staff and the Administrative Agency.
Q So, well, the defendant Fanslau came back after you already had been in front?
A Yes, apparently, and I assume that very early in the morning between three and four in the morning he was located with the Supply column as he woke us up in the morning. I was out in front of the column with a truck loaded with food, and I was awakened since I was the driver of the first vehicle by Fanslau himself.
Q Where were the cars of the Supply column located?
A They were included in the organization of the Supply column, with the medical officer who was around there. The medical officer sometimes would be the center column, and sometimes at the head. Then we had the treasury -- the field treasury. There was always some one in the column according to the way the column was organized each time, just when the Supply column was enroute.
Q Now when you came to the bridge, which was the first vehicle that stopped?
A That was the defendant's car, Fanslau.
Q And then came the car of Tschentscher?
A Yes.
Q And then his staff car and then your car, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Just what was the width of the road?
A The width of the road was a little smaller than the distance from the witness to the first bench, that is, so that two vehicles could pass each other, and they could by-pass each other on the road.
Q Were you directly or right behind each other?
A Yes.
Q And did you remain with your vehicle?
A No. I went up ahead, went to see what was delaying the movement of the column.
Q And did you then return to your vehicle?
A Yes, I returned. And there I watched the civilians at work.
Q From your car?
A Yes. Yes. I was standing near thes car. I was standing next to the car.
Q Is not the area there very flat?
A Yes. You can look over the entire area from the bridge, and the citadelle and everything can be recognized from there.
Q However, you were not standing on any heigth where you could observe it?
A Yes, it was just even. I was just located in the same position as the others in the cars were standing, in no higher or level spot at all.
Q How long did you stop at that place?
A For two hours.
Q And for the entire two hours the defendant Fanslau was there also?
A I saw him there for approximately three-quarters of an hour. Well, that is the highest number of minutes I can give you here.
And then I also left and went back to my vehicle.
Q I thought that you had stayed with your vehicle?
AAfter I had oriented myself upon return to my vehicle then I again left my vehicle, so that I was able to look at the whole matter.
Q Where were you standing?
A Besides the bridge, there was a little footpath, which lead to the area that was not swampy any more, and I went through this footpath together with some other people.
Q You went over there. Where did you go to?
A I went in the direction of the citadelle.
Q Then you went away from the bridge?
A Yes.
Q From what point did you make your observation?
A I was approximately twenty to thirty meters from the bridge when I saw the first incident. I saw the first incident when the Jew was pushed into the swamp at a distance of from four to five meters.
Q You stated that you were twenty meters away from the citadelle, that was towards your car?
A I was going from the car to the citadelle.
Q I don't understand that. If you were going from the car to the citadelle, it must be directly at the bridge?
A No, I was going towards the citadelle. I was on the footpath.
Q And then you went twenty meters away from the bridge?
A No, I was twenty meters away from the craters.
Q Where were these craters?
A They were located at the slope, which led up to the citadelle.