Q. All right, now go on with your story. What did you see in Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. I went into Dnjepropetrowsk several times in order to get my rations on the basis of my pay book. On one of these trips, at the beginning of December, we always had to halt for a while at the bridge because it was one-way traffic. In that period of time I assumed that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher went back to Germany. I assumed that he had taken leave because I had no longer any contact with my unit. When the traffic was allowed over the bridge to Dnjepropetrowsk, we heard some shooting nearby. A vehicle of the Wehrmacht had taken me along with him from the Kolchon where I had stayed. When this shooting started near Dnjepropetrowsk, we left our vehicle and went towards the scene of the shooting, as we heard it. We oriented ourselves according to the noise. A large crowd of people were gathered on a sports ground which was full of shell holes and bomb craters. They had not yet been covered up. This crowd which was standing around was guarded by police and members of the security service of the Einsatz Kommando VI. There was a very large crowd of people and they were Jews.
Q. Just a moment. Did you say that the guards of these people were members of Einsatzgruppe VI?
A. The guards had machine guns and rifles, whereas the police were busy, that is, two police officials, and in the middle, between them, there was a Jew. They grabbed hold of him at his arms and led him away to the bomb craters.
Q. But the police who were engaged in this operation were members of Einsatzkommando VI, or Einsatzgruppe VI?
A. They were part of the guard detachment.
Q. Didn't you just mention Einsatzkommando VI a minute ago?
A. Yes, Einsatzkommando VI.
DR. KRAUS (Counsel for defendant Tschentscher): If Your Honors please, I must emphatically object to the manner in which this interrogation is being carried out. The witness is given the names of Einsatz gruppen and things, repeatedly, and to the question put to him three times he did not express in his three answers that that unit is known to him.
Now, it is being tried very hard to suggest the knowledge about that unit to him. I object to it emphatically.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand. The witness did mention Einsatzgruppe VI in his previous answer, the prosecution claims, but it was not translated.
MR. FULKERSON: That is right, Your Honor, and all I was trying to do is bring out that he did mention it.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, we can easily determine by referring to the sound track whether he did mention Einsatzgruppe VI. One of the members of the staff of the prosecution claims to have heard him mentioned that in his original answer. Now, we will find out whether he did or not.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, go on with your story--
THE PRESIDENT: Wait just a moment.
INTERPRETER: I am afraid he said so, but I missed it in the translation.
DR. KRAUS: If the Tribunal please, I feel I must say the witness mentioned Einsatzkommando, but not Einsatzgruppe VI.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right. The translator verifies the fact that in his original answer he mentioned "Einsatzkommando VI". All right, go ahead.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Continue with your story, witness.
A. Between two policemen of the Einsatzkommando, which had been ordered to be guards, there was one Jew, and that Einsatzkommando dealt with the shooting on the basis of a reprisal measure against four to five thousand Jews who were being shot in those days, in Dnjepropetrowsk. The Jews were shot dead in that way, but before they were actually shot, they had to dig out the bomb craters which were made in August. They were led to the edge of the crater and then they were shot down by members of the SD Kommando VI.
They were being shot in the neck with a simple automatic pistol. I was at a distance of about a hundred meters, and I watched this atrocity for about half an hour. In that half hour Tschentscher also looked on and, on his own initiative, he took part in the shooting by borrowing a gun from an SD guard or SD man, so that at least twenty Jews - and among them three young children - were shot down by him in that manner.
Q. Do you mean to say that Tschentscher borrowed a pistol from an SD man and actually participated in the executions himself?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many people do you say that he personally shot?
A. It must have been twenty Jews, including three young children of school age. No discrimination was made between age or sex.
Q. What was done to these Jews after they were shot?
A. They were dragged into the crater by Ukrainians, who had been summoned for this, and their fellow Jews, and then their bodies were covered up with earth.
Q. Are you absolutely sure that the defendant Tschentscher was the man you saw borrowing this pistol and carrying out these excesses you just described?
A. As far as I am concerned, Tschentscher is easy for me to identify, and it is impossible for me to have made a mistake.
Q. Can you identify him here now?
A. Of course.
Q. Well, describe which of the defendants he is by whether he is in the front row or in the back.
A. He is sitting in the front row; he is the third from my right as seen from my place.
MR. FULKERSON: Let the record show, if Your Honors please, that the witness correctly identified the defendant Tschentscher.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Can you identify the defendant Fanslau here in the courtroom?
A. He is sitting in the front row, the third from the left.
MR. FULKERSON: Let the record also indicate that the witness correctly identified the defendant Fanslau.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, I would like to ask you a question regarding this last incident. You said that Tschentscher borrowed a gun. Was he not himself usually armed? Why did he need to borrow a weapon?
A. It was very cold on that day and Tschentscher was wearing his long overcoat, the simple driver's coat. Whether underneath that he had a gun or whether he had one in his pocket, or whether he thought on this trip he didn't need his gun, so that he need not clean it, I don't know. In any case I established and observed that Tschentscher borrowed that gun from an SD man.
Q. What kind of a gun was it?
A. It was one of those simple automatic pistols used by the SD Kommandos. I was frequently billeted in an SD barracks when I went to town to go to the cinema, or when I got my rations, as I did not want to spend the night outside. That is the reason why I have this precise knowledge why it must have been Einsatzkommando VI. I found out there that some of them were Walher pistols from the Suhl factory, and some of them were Stayer pistols, simple pistols of the 7.65 centimeter caliber.
Q. Now, I believe testified a while ago that during the time you in Dnjepropetrowsk, the whole time you were there, you were absent without leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever voluntarily return to your unit?
A. No.
Q. Did you involuntarily return there?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. After the shooting of the 4,000 or 5,000 Jews at Dnyepropetrowsk, I remained at any eprope trowsk with the resolution never to go back to my unit, but to do the same thing that my parents had done: To fight against criminals for love of humanity. So I joined at that time a group of people who were in the middle of that battle already. They were called the "Grey Group of the Eastern Front." This group was trying to enlighten people, the German soldiers, about the war aim of their leaders.
Q. How long was it before you were actually -- I believe you said you went back involuntarily. I take it you were arrested.
A. By the end of January I was apprehended by an officer of the Secret Field Police Unit. I was called a traitor as I had mutilated my own body, and the wound had just begun to heal by the end of February. I was then handed ever by the Field Police to the Viking Division, in remand.
Q. You mean you had a self inflicted wound?
A. On the 16th of February 1942.
Q. Of what year?
A. 1942. I shot myself through my left hand in order to achieve thereby to be taken to a hospital, in the hope that stufttpunkt leader Untersturmfuehrer Letzy, who was in charge of the construction, would return my pay book to me so that I could escape again.
Q. In other words, they had taken your pay book that was necessary to obtain rations away from you when you were arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was -- rather, shooting yourself in the hand was a rather circuitous route of getting them back?
A. Quite.
Q. Now, when you were returned to your unit, what happened to you?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now did he get back to his unit? We never have found out yet.
Q. You say you were arrested at the end of January. Then you shot yourself in the hand. Then what happened to you.
A. I remained in the hospital for a while and, once the wound had healed, I was still wearing the plaster, because the bone of my left index finger had been wounded, I was being taken back to my unit, which was then in Koternikewo near Stalino, and, in the orderly room, I was committed to protective custody and was guarded by the people in charge of the guard duty.
Q. All right, how long were you kept in protective custody there?
A. I was taken to three interrogations which took until the 30th of April, 1942. I was always taken from Ketennikowo to Ambrosewka, and, in those two months I always had to remain in the guard house under guard. During these 2 months.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What happened to you finally? Go ahead and tell us?
THE WITNESS: On the 30th of April, at the third interrogation, I was sentenced by the F**ld Court of the Viking Division, for treason and self inflicted ***s, and other military offenses to death and loss of all civil rights for the period of my life
Q. You are still telling your story, so apparently that sentence wasn't carried out. Why?
A. When the Judge asked me what I had to say about the sentence I finally produced the argument that I had never joined the SS voluntarily; I had been forced to do so; I had never sworn the oath of the SS, and that, as the SS was a volunteer unit, it was therefore impossible for an SS Court to sentence a compulsary member of the SS.
Therefore, I should be put before a people's cour as a civilian.
Q. All right. Now, did they reduce the sentence? Was that the outcome of this?
A. The court retired once more for consultation and the final result was life in the punitive camp of the SS Police in Danzig, Matzau.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, did you stay there until the war was over?
THE WITNESS: In Danzig Matzkau on the 26th of February, 1943, I attempted to escape, which I took me away for eight days from Danzig Matzkau and when I tried to join a Swedish ore steamer to go to Sweden, I was apprehended by the Gestapo, when I was hiding in the coal cellar. At gotenhafen.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What finally happened to you? Go ahead and tell us. Get it over. What happened to you?
THE WITNESS: From there I was taken to Dachau and committed to the punitive camp of the SS and Police there, and, in that camp I was liberated on the 29th of April 1945 by the American units as a death custody, for having repeatedly attempted to escape from camp.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You were there when the Americans came and liberated Dachau in the early part of 1945?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. Do you know whether the defendants, Fanslau and Tschentscher seemed to be particularly familiar with each other while they were in the Viking Division together?
A. I couldn't really give you a precise description of that, but I do know that Fanslau and Tschentscher were frequently the cause why banquests were given in Tarnopol, Shitomir, and Lasewatka, and other places. These banquits lasted until deep into the night and the bakers and butchers units had to supply them.
Q. Now, you've mentioned these various atrocities that were at least participated in by the Bakers and Butchers Company; was the Defend and Tschentscher, as the major in charge of the Supply Battalion, in a position to have prevented that sort of thing, if he had wanted?
A. Yes, particularly in the sense that members of those units were not allowed to leave the camp and that they did so proves that the leaders and officers were indulgent in that sense.
Q. Did either Fanslau or Tschentscher ever punish you while you were in the Viking Division?
A. While we were in Lasowatka because he the transfer to somewhere else, I went after them alone. I had become guilty of a grave crime against the disciplinary rules by separating myself without my uniform coat without my pay book and without my holster. I was because of the offense sentenced by Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty on behalf of Tschentscher for ten days in the guard house.
Q. Do you hear any grudge against Tschentscher for that?
A. That punishment had to be meted out, because I had became guilty of a disciplinary offense. As far as Tschentscher himself is concerned, I did not meet him on that particular occasion when I reported. The punishment was meted out by Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty, who announced it in the evening at the roll call.
Q. Did Fanslau ever punish you?
A. Fanslau has never meted any punishment against me; as far as I know as the Administrative Officer of the Division, Fanslau had nothing to do with it.
Q. Now, you described yesterday that you were in the Wehrmacht and attached to a unit which was being used as occupation forces and that you suddenly received an order transferring you to the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You never made any application to be transferred to the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler?
A. No.
Q. Or to the SS Generally?
A. Certainly not to the SS. I was not even a member of the Hitler Youth.
Q. Well, you realize, don't you, that the Leibstandarte was an elite unit?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was generally regarded as such by all the Waffen-SS?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, in spite of that, you say that you were involuntarily transferred from the Wehrmacht to the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler?
A. Yes.
MR. FULKERSON: I believe that is all. Take the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination.
BY MR. FULKERSON (Continued):
Q. When you reported here in the Palace of Justice at Nurnberg, who interrogated you?
A I arrived on the 18th of July, 1947, for the first time. War Crimes in Dachau had sent me here. They asked me to look up Major Klein.
Q I know. Never mind going through that long chain of command. Just who interrogated you when we finally got around to interrogating you? Who did it?
A Mr. Fulkerson.
Q And who else? Who were the various translators?
A First of all, Mr. Wolf, and then somebody else, and the later interrogations were carried out by Mr. Ponger.
Q Now, while these interrogations were going on, were other witnesses sometimes present?
A In the interrogations with Mr. Fulkerson I was alone and at the other interrogations, in order to refresh my memory, other witnesses, Witness Sauer and Witness Stamminger, Witnesses Mueller, and Kleier and Jackel, were produced also.
Q And these various men, whose names you had given us, were then brought to Nurnberg into the interrogation room while you were there and the two of you were interrogated together, is that true?
A We were interrogated together.
MR. FULKERSON: That is all, Your Honor.
DR. VON STAKELBERG (Attorney for the Defendant Fanslau): May it please the Tribunal, before I cross-examine this witness, I would like to state that after the conclusion of the interrogation by the prosecution it became quite clear that the statement and testimony of the witness have become testimony in chief of this trial. I am furthermore of the opinion that the incriminating statements made in the course of this testimony are of so serious a nature that they need an extremely careful defense. It will be hardly possible within a simple rebuttal procedure to have that defense carried out properly or to prepare it even. I repeat, therefore, my request that this manner of producing evidence at this point of the trial will be objected to and request, first of all, therefore, that this evidence be eliminated from this trial. If that cannot be done, should the Tribunal not comply with this motion, I move that it must be recognized that this has become testimony in chief so that I, therefore, claim that I can use all the ordinary rights of defense, particularly, another interrogation of Defendant Fanslau himself, and produce other witnesses, for whom I shall make a request.
THE PRESIDENT: This testimony is in direct rebuttal of the Defendants' testimony that they knew nothing of the extermination program and had no part in it themselves. This is properly in rebuttal of that defense testimony. You will be given every opportunity to meet it and to crossexamine and to produce testimony in your own behalf, as much as you need to.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, unless I am mistaken, you said yesterday that you were born in Gottesberg in Silesia, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q What was your parents' profession?
A My father was a locksmith.
Q And then you went to Elementary School?
A Yes. Only to Elementary School.
Q Did you pass this school without any hitch?
A Yes.
Q Are you married?
A No.
Q Apart from the punishment you mentioned, did you have a criminal record of any sort?
A No.
Q What did you learn as a profession?
A Nothing at all.
Q How old were you when war broke out?
A 19 years.
Q What did you do after you left your Elementary School?
A I lived for two years with my parents because I didn't join the Hitler Youth.
Q Then in 1940 you were called up, you told us?
A Yes.
Q Were you promoted within the Wehrmacht?
A No.
Q And, after the campaign in the West, you say, you were drafted into the SS?
A Yes.
Q. Were you the only one in your unit?
A Yes.
Q Did that come about?
A I am afraid I don't know the details there, but I may assume that, as a result of my education in 1939, I had been drafted into the SS, particularly into an elite unit which was for the purpose of political training.
Q You said that in 1939 you attempted to evade military service?
A Yes.
Q Were you punished for that? Were you found out?
A No, I was found out, because I was denounced, but I did not receive any punishment.
Q You believe that as a punishment measure you were drafted into a particularly elite unit of the SS?
A Yes.
Q After you had participated in the French Campaign with the Wehrmacht?
A Yes.
Q I don't think that sounds very credible. You were not in the Party nor the Allgemeine SS?
A No.
Q Were you promoted within the SS?
A No.
Q What was your rank at the end?
A I was a cadet. (Staffel Anwarter)
Q How was it that you came from the Leibstandarte to the Viking Division?
AAfter I had become a fully trained chauffeur I was transferred to that Division.
Q Did you make an application for that?
A No.
Q When you were with the Leibstandarte, did you get into trouble?
A No, only when I reported first, I was told that I was to become a good National Socialist.
Q Then you said that in January, 1942, you were arrested?
A Yes.
Q But before then you said you had taken all the necessary precautions when you deserted and were absent without leave that you didn't catch anybody's attention?
A But the Secret Field Police had found out that there was a secret group of conspirators in Dnjepropetrowsk who were enlightening German soldiers about the true war aims of their leaders. On the basis of that activity, for we had circulated slogans, for instance, "Finish all this". "Only pure truths". A so-called mass-desertation came about. We found out, for instance, that over 2,000 people had deserted in that period of time from that area.
Q And you were arrested within the scope of the action directed against this, were you?
A Yes.
Q Then I didn't quite understand, why did you shoot through your hand?
A In order to make the attempt to get my pay book back from the man in charge of the hospital so that I could escape again with all the papers.
Q You told us that you had been sentenced to death?
A Yes.
Q And then later on the court on the basis of the fact that you had not been a voluntary member of the SS -
A On the basis that I had not sworn to the SS oath -
Q The sentence was commuted into life sentence?
A Yes.
Q Under German Criminal Law, no court cannot commute sentence which it has pronounced?
A Yes, it can be. The German Penal Law did not coincide with the legal customs observed by the SS. The SS based themselves always on Paragraph 5a of the Special Penal Code issued in the war.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Well, I shall check this.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we take a recess?
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: It has been suggested that there may be some misunderstanding among defense counsel on the question of briefs. We didn't mean to suggest that we don't want briefs. We would be glad to have them if you wish to file them. The only thing we said was that there would be no delay for the purpose of preparing and filing briefs; but if any defense counsel wishes to file a brief at any time before the judgment, the Tribunal will be glad to have the benefit of them. You may do as you like about it.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, I have another question to ask you which refers to the questions I asked you before the recess. After you completed your education, just how old were you?
A. I was fourteen years old.
Q. Just how long did you stay at home?
A. I remained at home until early in 1936.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Then I went to Schneidemuehl in the province of Western Prussia as an agricultural worker.
Q. In 1938 and 1939?
A. In 1938 and 1939 I also worked in agriculture; and early in 1939 I was in the vicinity of Berlin at the Nittelsee. There I also worked on a farm. Then I was conscripted into the military service.
Q. How, I want to refer once more to your death sentence. Was the verdict changed from the death sentence to life-long confinement? Was this verdict changed in the same court session?
A. Yes. The court retired only once more for a short consultation, and then it changed the verdict. The last trial altogether lasted only for twenty minutes.
Q. Was it clear to you that the confinement for life was not a punishment in itself but was only limitation of freedom?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Just a moment, please. I believe the translation is not quite correct. If I am not mistaken, confinement means a stay in jail or in prison, and it includes all kinds of punishment where a person is not at liberty. In the German criminal law court, however, we must make a distinction as to confinement in prison; and here we make a distinction between jail or prison or confinement in a general and protective custody, which is something quite different. Protective custody is the word, yes. Protective custody is used for habitual criminals.
I am unable to look into the matter right now; but this cannot be pronounced at all without any punishment. According to the German law court a verdict for protective custody for life cannot be given without at the same time sentencing the person in an other way too. However, I shall have to investigate that question further, and I shall explain it in detail to this Tribunal.
Q. In any case, what do you maintain?
A. Well, first I was sentenced to death. Then in another session of the Tribunal this punishment was changed to protective custody for life.
Q. Besides this protective custody, no other punishment was imposed?
A. That is correct.
Q. Then you were at Danzig-Matzgau and at Dachau?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you subjected to mistreatment?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you suffer any physical injury as a result of that?
A. Yes, I lost my hearing in part.
Q. Did your memory suffer?
A. No.
Q. Did you suffer any other physical injury?
A. Yes. I suffer from a stomach disease.
Q. What are you doing right now as far as your work is concerned?
A. I am not carrying out any profession at all. It is my profession to be here for the time being, and I am firmly determined that I want to devote myself to politics intellectually because of my very detailed knowledge.
Q. What have you done from 1945 up till now?
A. I was -
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. There are three women in the back row who will behave themselves or leave the courtroom. This is not a motion picture, and it isn't a theater. Stop your laughing and your talking or leave the courtroom.
Q. What did you do from 1945 up till now?
Q What did you do from 1945 up to now?
A I was released at Wasserburg, and then at Wasserburg I was denounced by the people at Wasserburg, and I was arrested as a result of that under the suspicion that I had been a member of the SS. I was sent to jail at Wasserburg, and then to the mental institute at Edelfing. Here my mental condition was to be examined, and my power of memory.
Q Just how long did you remain in the insane asylum?
A One year, exactly from 11 August 1945 to 11 August 1946.
Q That was at Edelfing.
A Yes.
Q And you had stayed from the 2nd of August 1945 until the 11 August 1946. As a witness for this trial you only volunteered in 1947?
A Yes.
Q Just how can it happen that since you had knowledge of such severe crimes, that you did not report as a witness earlier?
A I only heard in the course of this year that Obersturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher and Sturmbannfuehrer Fanslau were indicted for these crimes.
Q When did you hear about that?
A I heard about that on the 15 July 1947, when I saw a placard of the Military Tribunal at Munich, according to which it mentioned that witness are needed for War Crimes Agency against Oswald Pohl, and the offices of the Administrative Main Office, where the pictures of, or the photographs of Fanslau and Tschentscher were on the back.
Q Was this placard containing the picture of the defendants?
A Yes.
Q And also contained the names of all the defendants?
A Yes.
Q And you say that this was at the edge of the former concentration camp for inmates at 64 Goethestrasse in Munich?
A In 64 Goethestrasse.
Q If, however, you read this placard, then you must know that you had to report here, and that you did not have to report at Dachau?
A First I saw notice of that placard from the agency for former concentration camp inmates, and that I should refer to an expert in the welfare agency, and he sent me into War Crimes at Dachau, where I was to inquire whether I should be needed as a witness. The War Crimes at Dachau telephoned to Nurnberg, and I was requested to go to Nurnberg during the night of 17 to 18 July, where I finally arrived.
AAnd the testimony which you have given here, did you recall it from the very beginning in the form as given here, or did your memory have to be refreshed?
A My memory did not have to be refreshed at all, because all of these things remained permanently in my memory. I did not come here to make detailed statements, but I came here for the reasons in order to help in the fact that the guilt of the guilty should be determined, and the increase of these people who are innocent.
Q You stated that you know the defendant Fanslau personally?
A Yes.
Q Where did you meet him?
A I met him in the Administrative Service at Dachau.
Q When was that?
A That was on 25 January 1941.
Q Where was the defendant Fanslau located at the time?
AAt Dachau, at the distribution point of the assignment, the point of assignment center of the detachment which came to Berlin, which was later divided into the Baker's Company and the Butcher's Platoon. Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher and Hauptsturmfuehrer Schenkel were the technical officers of the Administrative Service there.
Q Was the defendant Fanslau then permanently assigned to this unit?
A Yes, he was there as an Administrative Officer at Dachau at the Headquarters, were Pohl was located.
I used to see him there frequently in this region with his driver Heydrich.
Q Then you went to Holberg near Stuttgart?
A Yes.
Q And did the Defendant Fanslau also go there?
A I did not see him there. I did not see the defendant there.
Q How often did you see him at Dachau?
A I must have seen him certainly five or six times.
Q You yourself were then transferred from Holberg to the vicinity of Breslau?
A Yes.
Q Did you see the defendant Fanslau there?
A No.
Q When were you sent into the combat zone?
A Towards the end of June, the division was then sent in the area of Zamosk, Ravaruska and Lemberg.
Q Do you know how long the defendant Fanslau stayed with the Division "Viking".
A I have not any precise knowledge, because from October on I was not in the unit any more. However, I know that up to that date, Fanslau was with the division as Divisional Administrative Officer of the Administrative Service.
THE COURT: What was the date, February or October, the first date?
THE WITNESS: The date?
THE COURT: The dates that the witness serviced with the Division Viking, the Viking Division, that he served with, the witness?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: How long were you with the Viking Division?
THE WITNESS: I was in the Butcher Detail.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Whenever you marched, what was customary? Was the defendant Fanslau always there?