Q. How many were killed in the crater approximately?
A. The number of the ones shot at must have been certainly beyond thirty.
Q. What participation, if any, did the Defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau take in the shooting?
A. The incident at the bridge itself, the drowning of a Jew?
Q. I am not asking about the bridge. I am asking you about the crater.
MR. FULKERSON: Were Fanslau and Tschentscher standing there?
THE WITNESS: They went there on their own and took part in the shooting, in this excess.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What part did they take; what did they do?
THE WITNESS: They joined the officers and leaders and joined in the shooting of the Jews who were lying in the crater.
MR. FULKERSON: Very well.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now, that point isn't clear enough to me. This is a very serious thing, the way they shot. How did they shoot; what weapon did they use? This is a very serious business, and I would like to get a little more objective and realistic. Ask about the same thing.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. What weapons did they use?
A. A simple pistol, an automatic pistol.
Q. And how many times do you judge that Fanslau, for example, shot into the crater?
A. Fanslau, I only saw him use his gun, as I observed Tschentscher changing his ammunition at the clip.
Q. In other words, you don't think that Fanslau used but one clip of ammunition?
A. I am unable to make a very precise statement here. I saw myself that he did shoot.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What kind of a weapon was used?
THE WITNESS: I assume that it was a small 7.35 Walther gun, which is an automatic pistol. It is a simple automatic pistol which the officers of the Wehrmacht and the SS used to carry.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, let us pass on to this next incident on the bridge in which only Fanslau and Tschentscher were involved. Now, describe that in detail.
A. That incident at the bridge itself took place before Tschentscher and Fanslau joined the people at the crater, because that incident was before Tschentscher and Fanslau joined the people at the crater. There was one Jew who saw that there was no point in going on with this work, and who threw down his timber, was first of all screamed at by a few German soldiers, and as the supply unit was very close to the bridge, Tschentscher and Fanslau, for what reason I cannot judge, took the Jew between them, grabbed his arm, and pushed him into the swamp near the bridge. It wasn't a real river, it was swampy ground.
Q. And then what happened?
A. Now, when the Jew was in the swamp up to his chin, and he had implored before to shoot him and not let him suffocate in the swamp, Tschentscher and Fanslau shot at his head with their simple pistols at his insistent demands.
Q. Where were Tschentscher and Fanslau standing at the time they were shooting at him?
A. Immediately close to the bridge.
Q. And how far away was this Jew who was sinking out of sight?
A. Not 2 to 3 meters, because he was pushed into the swamp very close to the bridge.
Q. So that it didn't take much of a marksman to kill a man at that range?
A. No.
MR. FULKERSON: Are there any other questions about this incident, your Honors?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When you opened your inquiry this morning, you directed the witness's attention to the fact that there were two episodes, and you asked him to isolate them, separate them. Then the witness began to tell about the bridge episode, but as he described the bridge episode he then brought in the crater episode.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now, I understood from your sort of brief summation that there was the bridge episode and the crater episode, but as I heard what the witness said this morning, he seemed, in relating the first episode, to intermingle the facts of the two episodes into that one. Now, maybe I didn't follow it through.
MR. FULKERSON: Well, I think the answer to that, your Honor, is, that the Jews who were being pushed through this line, that is during the first episode that he described, were Jews who had been working on the bridge, you see, but who had become too weak to work, add were therefore of no use there.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Witness, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, yesterday, Witness, you described that in Tarnopol you saw Jews who had been rounded up to clean up the slaughter house. Was that an isolated incident or did that occur generally thereafter?
A. In the latter period of time I came across it in Zhitomir, but I don't know anything beyond that.
Q. Where did you go from Tarnopol, where was the next town where you were stationed?
A. Zhitomir.
Q. Now, describe the mistreatment, if any, of the Jews that you witnessed at Zhitomir.
A. What happened at Zhitomir I can only tell you from the stories told me by some SS N.C.O.'s and comrades of the slaughter unit, the butchers' company. I should think, however, they were telling me the truth.
DR. VONSTAKELBERG(For the Defendant Fanslau): If the Tribunal please, I contradict this. I object to this statement that he only knows these things from hearsay.
THE PRESIDENT: Hearsay has been admissible from the Defense and the Prosecution throughout all of these trials, and is admissible specifically under the ordinance governing the conduct of these trials. The weight of the evidence, by reason of its being hearsay, is to be determined by the Court.
Q.(By Mr. Fulkerson) Describe first what you were told about what happened at Zhitomir, and then tell the Court who told it to you, and under what circumstances.
A. In Zhitomir when the supply office, the bakers' and the butchers' units were put up in a parachutists' barracks, and therefore for the dirty work, Jews were brought from the ghetto in Zhitomir, and not as formerly, it wasn't done as it was done in Tarnopol, for instance, what happened was; the Jews, or some of them at least, were shot during the work, and new ones were brought in, so that the number of shot Jews increased by the double at least compared to Tarnopol. All this was told me by Unterscharfuehrer Butz and other comrades and Unterscharfuehrer Mayer of the butchers' platoon, both of them. When the supply office was moved in order to issue the sausage to the division, these people told the stories and boasted. They bragged about it.
From the stories told me by other comrades, it became clear that they had taken part in it. A special incident was that Oberscharfuehrer Schlick of the Bakers' Company told before witnesses, of six Jews being in front of eyewitnesses.
Q Where were you when all this was happening at Zhitomir.
A I was permanently with the supply office as I was driving my truck to and fro, and the food was passed on by the army administrative office to the Viking Division in order to be distributed there. The actual issue was done at that time in a place called Byelava-Tserkow whereas the bakers and butchers were in Zhitomir, and from where they went to the administrative offices on their trucks in order to collect sausage and bread, and so forth.
Q Now, did you personally witness any such incidents as you have described at Byelava-Tserkow?
A In Byelava-Tserkow we were in a camp when suddenly, in the early morning, ten or eleven o'clock perhaps, somebody called out "a civilian, a Jew, was in the camp. Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher called out, "Where is he?" Tschentscher was wearing his officers' trousers; I don't know what shoes he was wearing -- not long boots anyway. He was in his trousers and his shirt so that it looked as though he was just changing his uniform. He had a pistol in his right hand and he shot at this civilian. It was found out later that had escaped from some transport which was going to some village to a Ghetto.
Q Did you actually see this, or is this something else that you were merely told?
A I saw that myself.
Q You actually saw the defendant Tschentscher shoot at this person?
A Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did he hit him or not when he shot at him? Did he hit him?
WITNESS: He hit him. The Jew collapsed after the first shot and wanted to get up again. Tschentscher fired another three, four or five shots, and Tschentscher shot once again, and the Jew collapsed. I was so nauseated that I left, but later on I was told that SS man had carried the Jew away.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did he die or did he live?
WITNESS: Whether he died on the same place, I don't know because I was so nauseated I left the scene.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Did you witness or hear about any similar episodes at Byelava-Tserkow?
AAs far as I know, I do not remember any other incidents in Byelava-Tserkow apart from the tales told me by Oberscharfuehrer Busch and Mayer -- I don't know whether one could call those "incidents."
Q Where did you move to after you left Byelava-Tserkow?
A We went from the village of Byelava-Tserkow -- I and the Buchers' platoon went to Boguslav.
Q Did any such incidents as this take place there?
A No.
Q Where was the next place that you witnessed or heard about such an occurrence?
A From Boguslav the Buchers' company -- the whole of the supply column -- went to Smela, and from there to Fyidarky.
Q Where is Fyidarky? In the neighborhood of what large city that we would know about?
A The next big town there, as I remember it, was Kirowograd.
Q Is it far from Krementschuk?
A Yes.
Q You can't orient it a little better for us? You have got us in the midst of the Ukraine here, and we don't know where we are, exactly.
A If you drive around Tscerkasse and touch Kirowograd on the right, you reach Fyidarky because it lies directly on the highway.
Q How many kilometers is it from Tscerkasse?
A It was a long distance. It took us about thirty hours, I think, although, of course, we stopped frequently because the highway was a very bad one. The distance is considerable; I think it is about eighty kilometers, I should say.
Q When was this? When did you arrive in Fyidarky?
AAt the beginning of August.
Q Now -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What year?
MR. FULKERSON: At the beginning of August, sir.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What year?
MR. FULKERSON: Oh, what year....
WITNESS: Nineteen forty-one.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q All these incidents that you describe which took place while you were attached to the Viking Division occurred in 1941, did they not?
A Yes.
Q Now, what happened at Fyidarky?
A In Fyidarky members of the Butchers' platoon who were in the village in order to recapture a piece of cattle observed a civilian who ran through the village. Two of them immediately identified him as a Jew and brought him to the camp. The Buchers' platoon and the supply office were both in the same camp. One of the SS-men, called Otto Kirsch, was given the orders by his office to shoot that Jew. As he did not realize or did not see what the Jew had ever done against him, he refused to carry out the order.
Q And then what happened?
A Tschentscher ordered -
Q Now, wait a minute. Tschentscher hasn't come into the picture yet. You just said that Kirsch was ordered to shoot this Jew, and that he refused to do it because he didn't see that the Jew had done anything against him. Now, how did Tschentscher get into the picture?
AAs an incident of that sort -- a man not carrying out an order -can only be dealt with by the commander.
Q He was then reported to Tschentscher for insubordination, is that it?
A Yes.
Q And then what happened?
AAfter Kirsch returned from Tschentscher he told us -- not only me but other comrades -- that Tschentscher had told him "We are fighting a war, and one or two more lives do not matter," and even reached for his pistol. That incident is not an isolated one, and not only against Jews, but there was another one directed at an SS-man called Schaefer -
Q Now, wait a minute, this story that you just told is not clear yet. You say that Kirsch was reported to Tschentscher for insubordination?
A Yes.
Q Then was he ordered to appear before Tschentscher?
A Yes.
Q And then what happened?
A He had to report in the official way to him.
Q And then what was the colloquy that took place between Kirsch and Tschentscher?
A What he said there I don't know in detail, but I know that it means when you have to report to your commander. It means SS-man "X" reports to the commander; then the man is being dealt with for whatever offense he may have committed either in a disciplinary way or......
Q Well, what did Tschentscher say to Kirsch, if you know what he said or if you heard what he said?
A "We are in the middle of a battle, and a few more lives here or there do not matter."
Q And what did Kirsch say to Tschentscher? What was his response to Tschentscher's remark?
A First of all, he stood there and did nothing, and when Tschentscher reached for his gun and Kirsch said so himself, Kirsch turned around -
Q In other words, Tschentscher -
THE PRESIDENT: Turned around -- and then what?
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honors please, we haven't got it clear what happened up to the time he turned around.
THE PRESIDENT: It is perfectly clear: Kirsch reported to Tschentscher; Tschentscher reached for his gun and said "We are fighting a war; one or more lives won't make any difference." When he said that Kirsch turned around.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q All right, then after Kirsch turned around, what did he do?
A Kirsch simply stood there, and he told us "if Tschentscher had shot at me, I wouldn't have been able to do anything. He simply would have shot at me. He would have had to shoot me in the back, and I would have died with the consciousness that I had been murdered.
Q What happened to this Jew?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute; let's get Kirsch out of there.
MR. FULKERSON: All right.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q How did you hear about this?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, wait a minute. Kirsch is standing there and Tschentscher has a gun pointed at him, at his back. Obviously, he didn't shoot him.
How did Kirsch get away from Tschentscher?
WITNESS: Tschentscher screamed at him and chased him out of the office. That is all that happened.
THE PRESIDENT: See how quick it happens.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, how did you hear about this?
A. Other comrades and I heard the story from Kirsch himself. He told us immediately and he had no reason to tell us something which was not true at that time.
Q. Now, where was the next such incident as this -- oh, I'm sorry, you never did answer the question of what happened to this Jew.
A. What I heard was another member of the supply office was given the order to shoot the Jew, and he carried it out.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who gave him the order? Who gave him the order?
THE WITNESS: That order came from the office, and that means it comes from the commander - that is to say, Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher. BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, where and when did the next such incident take place, if you know of any more?
A. From Fyidarky we moved on to Lasowatka, which was not very far from Dnjepropetrowsk, at a distance of about eighty kilometers. There, apart from a reconnaissance raid on partisan activities, nothing happened. We went on to Dnjepropetrowsk and on from there to NowoMoskowsk. I had trouble with my truck and I did not return to my unit after that.
Q. All right, now did you notice any such atrocities as you have just described in Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. I remained in the neighborhood of Dnjepropetrowsk for some time. I knew that that was desertion. But I had taken such precautions that I would be able to get the various passes and vouchers from the transportation units of the Wehrmacht which attested to the fact that I had looked after my truck properly, although under difficult circumstances--
Q. Excuse me. Wait a minute. You were absent without leave during this time that you described?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, now go on with your story. What did you see in Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. I went into Dnjepropetrowsk several times in order to get my rations on the basis of my pay book. On one of these trips, at the beginning of December, we always had to halt for a while at the bridge because it was one-way traffic. In that period of time I assumed that Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher went back to Germany. I assumed that he had taken leave because I had no longer any contact with my unit. When the traffic was allowed over the bridge to Dnjepropetrowsk, we heard some shooting nearby. A vehicle of the Wehrmacht had taken me along with him from the Kolchon where I had stayed. When this shooting started near Dnjepropetrowsk, we left our vehicle and went towards the scene of the shooting, as we heard it. We oriented ourselves according to the noise. A large crowd of people were gathered on a sports ground which was full of shell holes and bomb craters. They had not yet been covered up. This crowd which was standing around was guarded by police and members of the security service of the Einsatz Kommando VI. There was a very large crowd of people and they were Jews.
Q. Just a moment. Did you say that the guards of these people were members of Einsatzgruppe VI?
A. The guards had machine guns and rifles, whereas the police were busy, that is, two police officials, and in the middle, between them, there was a Jew. They grabbed hold of him at his arms and led him away to the bomb craters.
Q. But the police who were engaged in this operation were members of Einsatzkommando VI, or Einsatzgruppe VI?
A. They were part of the guard detachment.
Q. Didn't you just mention Einsatzkommando VI a minute ago?
A. Yes, Einsatzkommando VI.
DR. KRAUS (Counsel for defendant Tschentscher): If Your Honors please, I must emphatically object to the manner in which this interrogation is being carried out. The witness is given the names of Einsatz gruppen and things, repeatedly, and to the question put to him three times he did not express in his three answers that that unit is known to him.
Now, it is being tried very hard to suggest the knowledge about that unit to him. I object to it emphatically.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand. The witness did mention Einsatzgruppe VI in his previous answer, the prosecution claims, but it was not translated.
MR. FULKERSON: That is right, Your Honor, and all I was trying to do is bring out that he did mention it.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, we can easily determine by referring to the sound track whether he did mention Einsatzgruppe VI. One of the members of the staff of the prosecution claims to have heard him mentioned that in his original answer. Now, we will find out whether he did or not.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, go on with your story--
THE PRESIDENT: Wait just a moment.
INTERPRETER: I am afraid he said so, but I missed it in the translation.
DR. KRAUS: If the Tribunal please, I feel I must say the witness mentioned Einsatzkommando, but not Einsatzgruppe VI.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right. The translator verifies the fact that in his original answer he mentioned "Einsatzkommando VI". All right, go ahead.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Continue with your story, witness.
A. Between two policemen of the Einsatzkommando, which had been ordered to be guards, there was one Jew, and that Einsatzkommando dealt with the shooting on the basis of a reprisal measure against four to five thousand Jews who were being shot in those days, in Dnjepropetrowsk. The Jews were shot dead in that way, but before they were actually shot, they had to dig out the bomb craters which were made in August. They were led to the edge of the crater and then they were shot down by members of the SD Kommando VI.
They were being shot in the neck with a simple automatic pistol. I was at a distance of about a hundred meters, and I watched this atrocity for about half an hour. In that half hour Tschentscher also looked on and, on his own initiative, he took part in the shooting by borrowing a gun from an SD guard or SD man, so that at least twenty Jews - and among them three young children - were shot down by him in that manner.
Q. Do you mean to say that Tschentscher borrowed a pistol from an SD man and actually participated in the executions himself?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many people do you say that he personally shot?
A. It must have been twenty Jews, including three young children of school age. No discrimination was made between age or sex.
Q. What was done to these Jews after they were shot?
A. They were dragged into the crater by Ukrainians, who had been summoned for this, and their fellow Jews, and then their bodies were covered up with earth.
Q. Are you absolutely sure that the defendant Tschentscher was the man you saw borrowing this pistol and carrying out these excesses you just described?
A. As far as I am concerned, Tschentscher is easy for me to identify, and it is impossible for me to have made a mistake.
Q. Can you identify him here now?
A. Of course.
Q. Well, describe which of the defendants he is by whether he is in the front row or in the back.
A. He is sitting in the front row; he is the third from my right as seen from my place.
MR. FULKERSON: Let the record show, if Your Honors please, that the witness correctly identified the defendant Tschentscher.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Can you identify the defendant Fanslau here in the courtroom?
A. He is sitting in the front row, the third from the left.
MR. FULKERSON: Let the record also indicate that the witness correctly identified the defendant Fanslau.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, I would like to ask you a question regarding this last incident. You said that Tschentscher borrowed a gun. Was he not himself usually armed? Why did he need to borrow a weapon?
A. It was very cold on that day and Tschentscher was wearing his long overcoat, the simple driver's coat. Whether underneath that he had a gun or whether he had one in his pocket, or whether he thought on this trip he didn't need his gun, so that he need not clean it, I don't know. In any case I established and observed that Tschentscher borrowed that gun from an SD man.
Q. What kind of a gun was it?
A. It was one of those simple automatic pistols used by the SD Kommandos. I was frequently billeted in an SD barracks when I went to town to go to the cinema, or when I got my rations, as I did not want to spend the night outside. That is the reason why I have this precise knowledge why it must have been Einsatzkommando VI. I found out there that some of them were Walher pistols from the Suhl factory, and some of them were Stayer pistols, simple pistols of the 7.65 centimeter caliber.
Q. Now, I believe testified a while ago that during the time you in Dnjepropetrowsk, the whole time you were there, you were absent without leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever voluntarily return to your unit?
A. No.
Q. Did you involuntarily return there?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. After the shooting of the 4,000 or 5,000 Jews at Dnyepropetrowsk, I remained at any eprope trowsk with the resolution never to go back to my unit, but to do the same thing that my parents had done: To fight against criminals for love of humanity. So I joined at that time a group of people who were in the middle of that battle already. They were called the "Grey Group of the Eastern Front." This group was trying to enlighten people, the German soldiers, about the war aim of their leaders.
Q. How long was it before you were actually -- I believe you said you went back involuntarily. I take it you were arrested.
A. By the end of January I was apprehended by an officer of the Secret Field Police Unit. I was called a traitor as I had mutilated my own body, and the wound had just begun to heal by the end of February. I was then handed ever by the Field Police to the Viking Division, in remand.
Q. You mean you had a self inflicted wound?
A. On the 16th of February 1942.
Q. Of what year?
A. 1942. I shot myself through my left hand in order to achieve thereby to be taken to a hospital, in the hope that stufttpunkt leader Untersturmfuehrer Letzy, who was in charge of the construction, would return my pay book to me so that I could escape again.
Q. In other words, they had taken your pay book that was necessary to obtain rations away from you when you were arrested?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was -- rather, shooting yourself in the hand was a rather circuitous route of getting them back?
A. Quite.
Q. Now, when you were returned to your unit, what happened to you?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now did he get back to his unit? We never have found out yet.
Q. You say you were arrested at the end of January. Then you shot yourself in the hand. Then what happened to you.
A. I remained in the hospital for a while and, once the wound had healed, I was still wearing the plaster, because the bone of my left index finger had been wounded, I was being taken back to my unit, which was then in Koternikewo near Stalino, and, in the orderly room, I was committed to protective custody and was guarded by the people in charge of the guard duty.
Q. All right, how long were you kept in protective custody there?
A. I was taken to three interrogations which took until the 30th of April, 1942. I was always taken from Ketennikowo to Ambrosewka, and, in those two months I always had to remain in the guard house under guard. During these 2 months.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What happened to you finally? Go ahead and tell us?
THE WITNESS: On the 30th of April, at the third interrogation, I was sentenced by the F**ld Court of the Viking Division, for treason and self inflicted ***s, and other military offenses to death and loss of all civil rights for the period of my life
Q. You are still telling your story, so apparently that sentence wasn't carried out. Why?
A. When the Judge asked me what I had to say about the sentence I finally produced the argument that I had never joined the SS voluntarily; I had been forced to do so; I had never sworn the oath of the SS, and that, as the SS was a volunteer unit, it was therefore impossible for an SS Court to sentence a compulsary member of the SS.
Therefore, I should be put before a people's cour as a civilian.
Q. All right. Now, did they reduce the sentence? Was that the outcome of this?
A. The court retired once more for consultation and the final result was life in the punitive camp of the SS Police in Danzig, Matzau.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, did you stay there until the war was over?
THE WITNESS: In Danzig Matzkau on the 26th of February, 1943, I attempted to escape, which I took me away for eight days from Danzig Matzkau and when I tried to join a Swedish ore steamer to go to Sweden, I was apprehended by the Gestapo, when I was hiding in the coal cellar. At gotenhafen.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What finally happened to you? Go ahead and tell us. Get it over. What happened to you?
THE WITNESS: From there I was taken to Dachau and committed to the punitive camp of the SS and Police there, and, in that camp I was liberated on the 29th of April 1945 by the American units as a death custody, for having repeatedly attempted to escape from camp.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You were there when the Americans came and liberated Dachau in the early part of 1945?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. Do you know whether the defendants, Fanslau and Tschentscher seemed to be particularly familiar with each other while they were in the Viking Division together?
A. I couldn't really give you a precise description of that, but I do know that Fanslau and Tschentscher were frequently the cause why banquests were given in Tarnopol, Shitomir, and Lasewatka, and other places. These banquits lasted until deep into the night and the bakers and butchers units had to supply them.
Q. Now, you've mentioned these various atrocities that were at least participated in by the Bakers and Butchers Company; was the Defend and Tschentscher, as the major in charge of the Supply Battalion, in a position to have prevented that sort of thing, if he had wanted?
A. Yes, particularly in the sense that members of those units were not allowed to leave the camp and that they did so proves that the leaders and officers were indulgent in that sense.
Q. Did either Fanslau or Tschentscher ever punish you while you were in the Viking Division?
A. While we were in Lasowatka because he the transfer to somewhere else, I went after them alone. I had become guilty of a grave crime against the disciplinary rules by separating myself without my uniform coat without my pay book and without my holster. I was because of the offense sentenced by Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty on behalf of Tschentscher for ten days in the guard house.
Q. Do you hear any grudge against Tschentscher for that?
A. That punishment had to be meted out, because I had became guilty of a disciplinary offense. As far as Tschentscher himself is concerned, I did not meet him on that particular occasion when I reported. The punishment was meted out by Untersturmfuehrer Kochalaty, who announced it in the evening at the roll call.
Q. Did Fanslau ever punish you?
A. Fanslau has never meted any punishment against me; as far as I know as the Administrative Officer of the Division, Fanslau had nothing to do with it.
Q. Now, you described yesterday that you were in the Wehrmacht and attached to a unit which was being used as occupation forces and that you suddenly received an order transferring you to the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You never made any application to be transferred to the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler?
A. No.
Q. Or to the SS Generally?
A. Certainly not to the SS. I was not even a member of the Hitler Youth.
Q. Well, you realize, don't you, that the Leibstandarte was an elite unit?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was generally regarded as such by all the Waffen-SS?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, in spite of that, you say that you were involuntarily transferred from the Wehrmacht to the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler?
A. Yes.
MR. FULKERSON: I believe that is all. Take the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination.
BY MR. FULKERSON (Continued):
Q. When you reported here in the Palace of Justice at Nurnberg, who interrogated you?
A I arrived on the 18th of July, 1947, for the first time. War Crimes in Dachau had sent me here. They asked me to look up Major Klein.
Q I know. Never mind going through that long chain of command. Just who interrogated you when we finally got around to interrogating you? Who did it?
A Mr. Fulkerson.
Q And who else? Who were the various translators?
A First of all, Mr. Wolf, and then somebody else, and the later interrogations were carried out by Mr. Ponger.
Q Now, while these interrogations were going on, were other witnesses sometimes present?
A In the interrogations with Mr. Fulkerson I was alone and at the other interrogations, in order to refresh my memory, other witnesses, Witness Sauer and Witness Stamminger, Witnesses Mueller, and Kleier and Jackel, were produced also.
Q And these various men, whose names you had given us, were then brought to Nurnberg into the interrogation room while you were there and the two of you were interrogated together, is that true?
A We were interrogated together.
MR. FULKERSON: That is all, Your Honor.
DR. VON STAKELBERG (Attorney for the Defendant Fanslau): May it please the Tribunal, before I cross-examine this witness, I would like to state that after the conclusion of the interrogation by the prosecution it became quite clear that the statement and testimony of the witness have become testimony in chief of this trial. I am furthermore of the opinion that the incriminating statements made in the course of this testimony are of so serious a nature that they need an extremely careful defense. It will be hardly possible within a simple rebuttal procedure to have that defense carried out properly or to prepare it even. I repeat, therefore, my request that this manner of producing evidence at this point of the trial will be objected to and request, first of all, therefore, that this evidence be eliminated from this trial. If that cannot be done, should the Tribunal not comply with this motion, I move that it must be recognized that this has become testimony in chief so that I, therefore, claim that I can use all the ordinary rights of defense, particularly, another interrogation of Defendant Fanslau himself, and produce other witnesses, for whom I shall make a request.