Q And these were Jews who had formerly been used to carry heavy timbers and so forth for the repair of the bridge?
A Yes.
Q And these two incidents that you have just described both took place on the same day and at the same place?
AAt the same place and within two hours.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How many Jews were killed there?
THE WITNESS: We then drove on -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: One minute. How many Jews were killed there at the bomb crater and around the bridge on this occasion that you have just described?
THE WITNESS: At least thirty or forty Jews.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Counsel, when he referred to the shooting operation he used the pronoun "they".
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q When you said that "they shot" the Jews who were pushed into the bomb crater after having been driven through this line, whom did you mean?
A I did not understand now.
(The interpreter repeated the question).
A Simply the double column made up of members of the slaughter unit, and of the Bakers Unit, the Supply Unit which formed part of the Mountain Troops.
Q You said, I believe, that there was a circle of men standing around the bomb crater?
A They formed a column, a double column, and their members and leader shot them down once they had been pushed into the bomb crater.
Q Now, when you said that Fanslau and Tschentscher were there, where were they?
A I observed them myself at least twenty minutes standing at the bomb crater and taking part in the execution and these excesses.
Q Then Fanslau and Tschentscher were standing at the edge of this bomb crater there which was at the end of this double column?
A Yes, after the Jews had been pushed into the crater, they....
DR. VON STAKELBERG (Attorney for the Defendant Fanslau): I object to this leading question, I object to this question, because it is a leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: He has already testified to it. He already has told us about this and Counsel is asking him to repeat it. He said it before.
MR. FULKERSON: I think you had better turn up the microphone, because the witness is hard of hearing. I think that is one of our troubles here.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now were there any other similar events that occurred at Zclozow?
A I have not seen any other occurrences at Zclozow. We had left about two hours and went on to the village at Bogdanovska. By that time it was about six or eight o'clock in the evening. We went to our billet.
Q All right. Now did you see anything of this sort happen in Bogdanovska?
A In Bogdanovska we went to our billets and after we had parked our vehicles, most of the members of the unit went through the village and I also came to the synagogue of that village. As we knew that it was not forbidden for us to take a few souvenirs of our advance in the occupied enemy territory particularly from a synagogue, some of us went inside. Suddenly Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher appear ed and chased us out.
He took the straw which was outside in the neighborhood, put it into gasoline and set fire to the synagogue.
Q And you saw that with your own eyes?
A Yes. We saw that with our own eyes.
Q What excuse did he give? What reason did he give for doing such a thing?
A He gave no excuse at all. He merely chased us out of the synagogue. Scharfuehrer Martin, of the Administrative Battalion, who was the propaganda expert in the propaganda company just managed to take one souvenir along with him.
Q. Now, did any other occurrence such as this happen at Bogdanovska?
A. When the daily orders were issued, the rumor was confirmed officially that Standartenfuehrer Hilmar Weggele, the commander of the Eastland Regiment, had been shot by Jews. Orders were given to search for arms, which were issued by Tschentscher personally, and the order said that the order of the divisional commander, as Weggele had been killed, nobody would be held responsible if he killed a Jew.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. (Interruption) Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) You say that orders were issued.
Who issued these orders? Did Tschentscher issue the orders?
A. Nobody would be held responsible for killing a Jew since Weggele had been killed by a Jew.
Q. Was this a formal order that Tschentscher read?
A. This was the first official confirmation that Weggele had been killed.
DR. KRAUS (for defendant Tschentscher): My colleagues and I are no longer getting the translation through now.
MR. FULKERSON: They can't hear the German now.
INTERPRETER: If I do both languages, they both can hear me.
THE PRESIDENT: How does this work now? The question will be asked in English, you will translate it into German, which the counsel can hear, the witness will answer in German, and you will repeat the answer in English - you will translate it into English.
MR. FULKERSON: That way we won't get it in the German.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. He will translate it. That's all right if a Russian doesn't walk in.
DR. KRAUS (for defendant Tschentscher): I wish to state that it is impossible for me to hear the answer of the witness in German direct. I request, therefore, that the witness can be heard direct over the microphone.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, you sit over there. Sit over there at the end of the table, then.
DR. KRAUS: May I point out that the defendants are equally interested to hear the witness themselves, rather than the translated answer.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, oh--
DR. KRAUS: I was wondering whether, in view of these circumstances, today's meeting could not be adjourned.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it won't he any easier tomorrow. We will have the same witness.
INTERPRETER: I think, sir, we will have to go back to the old system again. The difficulty is with the witness -- he's a little hard of hearing.
THE PRESIDENT: We will have to cope with the difficulty in that case, and repeat it if necessary. Now, will you unscramble this, and go back--
DR. VON STAKELBERG (for defendant Fanslau): Perhaps the witness could be asked to talk more clearly and loudly.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is doing his best. He is hard of hearing and he has a flat voice that is very difficult to hear anyway; it is because of his hearing. We will try it again.
MR. FULKERSON: Now--
THE PRESIDENT: Where were we?
MR. FULKERSON: Now we were talking about an order which Tschentscher read.
Q. Do you remember, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. I want you to describe this order more particularly, and describe also when it was read to you. Under what circumstances it was read to you.
A. It was read to all members of the supply service following the usual order of the day which had arranged for a search for arms.
Q. And how did this order begin?
A. By orders of the Divisional Commander.
Q. And who was this commander.
A. Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau.
MR. FULKERSON: Excuse me, but we are getting that the other way around. I think we would do better if you translate that "administrative office" because that "division" will give the impression-
Do you understand the difficulty there? He meant the Verwaltungsintendant, the Administrative Officer, not the Commanding Officer of the division.
A. (By the witness) How do you mean-- you mean the commander - commanding officer of the administration?
MR. FULKERSON: No, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the translator.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, you have described the order which you heard at the evening roll call. What else, if anything, did you see in connection with anti-semitic activities at Tarnopol by the men of your outfit?
A. In Bogdanovska itself on the next morning Oberscharfuehrer Semm, the technical officer of the maintenance squadron, went through the village with Rottenfuehrer Schmidt and drove three Jews ahead of themselves, who each carried a spade.
Q. Why were they driving three Jews ahead of them?
A. They had been brought together during the night. Why? That's probably because all Jews were to be shot. This was part of a so-called reprisal action for the death of Standartenfuehrer Weggele.
Q. All right. Then what happened to these three Jews?
A. These three Jews were taken out of the village by the two above mentioned men, and then after they had to dig their own graves they were shot down with a tommy gun by Oberscharfuehrer Semm.
Q. Were you there? Did you see this?
A. I saw the Jews themselves when they were going through the village with a spade on their back, on their shoulder, and one of the Jews was accompanied by his son, who was crying.
That crying irritated either Hauptsturmbannfuehrer Fanslau or so. Anyway, he called out to Oberscharfuehrer Semm that if this boy doesn't stop crying and go on his way he will have to look on.
Q. Now, that incident-- In other words, if the boy didn't go away and quit crying, Fanslau said he would have to witness his father being shot, was that the idea?
A. Yes. That was not only the idea, that is the precise statement of all that happened at the reprisal action for Weggele's death.
Q. Now, from Bogdanovska, where did you go?
A. From Bogdanovska the supply unit went on, after it had stayed there for about 15 or 16 hours, to Tarnopol, arriving there the same evening.
Q. Did you see any incidents of this sort at Tarnopol?
A. In Tarnopol I was sent back from the supply unit to the slaughter unit, and on the following morning I escorted a transport of cattle from the stables to the slaughterhouse in my vehicle. When I reached the slaughterhouse with the cattle, I observed Jews getting in order and cleaning up the floor of the very dirty slaughterhouse.
Q. How did you know they were Jews?
A. Above all, the way they spoke, the way they behaved, and especially the frightened way when they were driven on in their work.
Q. Did the Jews in that region speak a special dialect?
A. The racial German speaks a clear, rather good German; Ukranians spoke little German; but I shall never forget how these Jews talked German, because they spoke Yiddish.
Q. That was one way that they could be recognized - by the fact that they spoke Yiddish?
A. And the other way was the long kaftan gown they wore - the long gown, which nearly every Jew wore, and the color of their eyes and hair.
Q. You say that you observed Jews while you were there, being used to clean up the slaughterhouse.
What was done with these Jews when the outfit left there?
A. The supply office went away early, but when I and the slaughter column joined them again I was told that all Jews had been shot when the unit left. My explanation is there that when the responsible officers of the administrative office stood together Hauptsturmfuehrer Schenkel, Hauptsturmfuehrer Meister, and others stated with regard to an order by the divisional staff that the Jews had to be herded together in a ghetto; then Schenkel said that this only meant unnecessary work, upon which Tschentscher, who was standing there, agreed and nodded.
Q. Did you see this? Did you hear this conversation?
A. All leaders, nearly all of the supply office, were standing nearby, and we were just busy loading up supplies.
Q. Was it general knowledge, generally talked about in your outfit, that at the time the last troops left Tarnopol all the Jews that had been used there were shot?
A. Those who were doing this regarded this as making their task easier.
Q. They were proud of it?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 19 August 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 August 1947, 0930-1630 - Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
GUNTHER OTTO - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honors please, I would like to make this journey on this magic carpet over the Ukraine that the witness has taken us on a little bit easier to follow. I have prepared a rough sketch here of that part of Russia and Poland that he is describing, and you can see the names of most of these towns. I thought it might make it easier. I am not introducing this as an exhibit.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Witness, when we concluded yesterday you had just described the incidents that you saw at Tarnopol. In reading the transcript, however, it is not too clear exactly what you meant when you described these two incidents which took place at Zclezew near the site of this shattered bridge. Now, as I understood you, there were two incidents in one actually. One was a kind of general execution of Jews in which the Jews who had become too weak to work were driven through a gamut, or double line, which ended on the edge of a bomb crater, and the other incident that you described was an isolated incident in which the only participants were the Defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau and the victim. Now, I want you to describe again these two incidents and make it clear that you are not mixing the two up as you describe them. This was at Zclezew.
A. Then our unit went through the village of Zclezew and reached the bridge at the eastern exit. The bridge had not been blown up. It was merely damaged by the strong traffic and transportation of the various units using it. I was in a position to observe that Jews, when the bridge was being refortified, worked in the following way: They had to carry very heavy poles of wood and timber. Some of the Jews collapsed through sheer weakness. The timber was too heavy, and frightened as they were, they worked at double speed. These Jews were driven on and were driven towards the swamp by a gamut, a double column which was made up by members of the bakers' and butchers' companies, as well as of the First Mountaineer Division. They were driven on with rifle butts and were beaten with the rifle butts, driven on until at the end of the double line they reached the edge of the crater, and there they saw their fellow Jews inside already. But they were pushed into it by Oberscharfuehrer Sell. The crater was surrounded by the officers and leaders of the butchers' and bakers' companies in a semicircle. Tschentscher and Fanslau joined them later, as did the officers of the First Mountaineer Division. They shot at the Jews who had been pushed into the crater by Oberschartfuhrer Sell.
Q. That was the first incident. Now describe again the other incident which occurred on the bridge in which only Fanslau and Tschentscher were involved.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Just a minute, what happened to the Jews that were shot at in the Crater?
A. What happened to them?
Q. Yes.
A. They were shot to death. Most of them were finished by four or five shots into the head. The Mountaineer -- the members of the Mountaineer Division pointed out the Jews who still showed signs of life.
Q. How many were killed in the crater approximately?
A. The number of the ones shot at must have been certainly beyond thirty.
Q. What participation, if any, did the Defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau take in the shooting?
A. The incident at the bridge itself, the drowning of a Jew?
Q. I am not asking about the bridge. I am asking you about the crater.
MR. FULKERSON: Were Fanslau and Tschentscher standing there?
THE WITNESS: They went there on their own and took part in the shooting, in this excess.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What part did they take; what did they do?
THE WITNESS: They joined the officers and leaders and joined in the shooting of the Jews who were lying in the crater.
MR. FULKERSON: Very well.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now, that point isn't clear enough to me. This is a very serious thing, the way they shot. How did they shoot; what weapon did they use? This is a very serious business, and I would like to get a little more objective and realistic. Ask about the same thing.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. What weapons did they use?
A. A simple pistol, an automatic pistol.
Q. And how many times do you judge that Fanslau, for example, shot into the crater?
A. Fanslau, I only saw him use his gun, as I observed Tschentscher changing his ammunition at the clip.
Q. In other words, you don't think that Fanslau used but one clip of ammunition?
A. I am unable to make a very precise statement here. I saw myself that he did shoot.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What kind of a weapon was used?
THE WITNESS: I assume that it was a small 7.35 Walther gun, which is an automatic pistol. It is a simple automatic pistol which the officers of the Wehrmacht and the SS used to carry.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, let us pass on to this next incident on the bridge in which only Fanslau and Tschentscher were involved. Now, describe that in detail.
A. That incident at the bridge itself took place before Tschentscher and Fanslau joined the people at the crater, because that incident was before Tschentscher and Fanslau joined the people at the crater. There was one Jew who saw that there was no point in going on with this work, and who threw down his timber, was first of all screamed at by a few German soldiers, and as the supply unit was very close to the bridge, Tschentscher and Fanslau, for what reason I cannot judge, took the Jew between them, grabbed his arm, and pushed him into the swamp near the bridge. It wasn't a real river, it was swampy ground.
Q. And then what happened?
A. Now, when the Jew was in the swamp up to his chin, and he had implored before to shoot him and not let him suffocate in the swamp, Tschentscher and Fanslau shot at his head with their simple pistols at his insistent demands.
Q. Where were Tschentscher and Fanslau standing at the time they were shooting at him?
A. Immediately close to the bridge.
Q. And how far away was this Jew who was sinking out of sight?
A. Not 2 to 3 meters, because he was pushed into the swamp very close to the bridge.
Q. So that it didn't take much of a marksman to kill a man at that range?
A. No.
MR. FULKERSON: Are there any other questions about this incident, your Honors?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When you opened your inquiry this morning, you directed the witness's attention to the fact that there were two episodes, and you asked him to isolate them, separate them. Then the witness began to tell about the bridge episode, but as he described the bridge episode he then brought in the crater episode.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now, I understood from your sort of brief summation that there was the bridge episode and the crater episode, but as I heard what the witness said this morning, he seemed, in relating the first episode, to intermingle the facts of the two episodes into that one. Now, maybe I didn't follow it through.
MR. FULKERSON: Well, I think the answer to that, your Honor, is, that the Jews who were being pushed through this line, that is during the first episode that he described, were Jews who had been working on the bridge, you see, but who had become too weak to work, add were therefore of no use there.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Witness, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, yesterday, Witness, you described that in Tarnopol you saw Jews who had been rounded up to clean up the slaughter house. Was that an isolated incident or did that occur generally thereafter?
A. In the latter period of time I came across it in Zhitomir, but I don't know anything beyond that.
Q. Where did you go from Tarnopol, where was the next town where you were stationed?
A. Zhitomir.
Q. Now, describe the mistreatment, if any, of the Jews that you witnessed at Zhitomir.
A. What happened at Zhitomir I can only tell you from the stories told me by some SS N.C.O.'s and comrades of the slaughter unit, the butchers' company. I should think, however, they were telling me the truth.
DR. VONSTAKELBERG(For the Defendant Fanslau): If the Tribunal please, I contradict this. I object to this statement that he only knows these things from hearsay.
THE PRESIDENT: Hearsay has been admissible from the Defense and the Prosecution throughout all of these trials, and is admissible specifically under the ordinance governing the conduct of these trials. The weight of the evidence, by reason of its being hearsay, is to be determined by the Court.
Q.(By Mr. Fulkerson) Describe first what you were told about what happened at Zhitomir, and then tell the Court who told it to you, and under what circumstances.
A. In Zhitomir when the supply office, the bakers' and the butchers' units were put up in a parachutists' barracks, and therefore for the dirty work, Jews were brought from the ghetto in Zhitomir, and not as formerly, it wasn't done as it was done in Tarnopol, for instance, what happened was; the Jews, or some of them at least, were shot during the work, and new ones were brought in, so that the number of shot Jews increased by the double at least compared to Tarnopol. All this was told me by Unterscharfuehrer Butz and other comrades and Unterscharfuehrer Mayer of the butchers' platoon, both of them. When the supply office was moved in order to issue the sausage to the division, these people told the stories and boasted. They bragged about it.
From the stories told me by other comrades, it became clear that they had taken part in it. A special incident was that Oberscharfuehrer Schlick of the Bakers' Company told before witnesses, of six Jews being in front of eyewitnesses.
Q Where were you when all this was happening at Zhitomir.
A I was permanently with the supply office as I was driving my truck to and fro, and the food was passed on by the army administrative office to the Viking Division in order to be distributed there. The actual issue was done at that time in a place called Byelava-Tserkow whereas the bakers and butchers were in Zhitomir, and from where they went to the administrative offices on their trucks in order to collect sausage and bread, and so forth.
Q Now, did you personally witness any such incidents as you have described at Byelava-Tserkow?
A In Byelava-Tserkow we were in a camp when suddenly, in the early morning, ten or eleven o'clock perhaps, somebody called out "a civilian, a Jew, was in the camp. Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher called out, "Where is he?" Tschentscher was wearing his officers' trousers; I don't know what shoes he was wearing -- not long boots anyway. He was in his trousers and his shirt so that it looked as though he was just changing his uniform. He had a pistol in his right hand and he shot at this civilian. It was found out later that had escaped from some transport which was going to some village to a Ghetto.
Q Did you actually see this, or is this something else that you were merely told?
A I saw that myself.
Q You actually saw the defendant Tschentscher shoot at this person?
A Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did he hit him or not when he shot at him? Did he hit him?
WITNESS: He hit him. The Jew collapsed after the first shot and wanted to get up again. Tschentscher fired another three, four or five shots, and Tschentscher shot once again, and the Jew collapsed. I was so nauseated that I left, but later on I was told that SS man had carried the Jew away.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did he die or did he live?
WITNESS: Whether he died on the same place, I don't know because I was so nauseated I left the scene.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Did you witness or hear about any similar episodes at Byelava-Tserkow?
AAs far as I know, I do not remember any other incidents in Byelava-Tserkow apart from the tales told me by Oberscharfuehrer Busch and Mayer -- I don't know whether one could call those "incidents."
Q Where did you move to after you left Byelava-Tserkow?
A We went from the village of Byelava-Tserkow -- I and the Buchers' platoon went to Boguslav.
Q Did any such incidents as this take place there?
A No.
Q Where was the next place that you witnessed or heard about such an occurrence?
A From Boguslav the Buchers' company -- the whole of the supply column -- went to Smela, and from there to Fyidarky.
Q Where is Fyidarky? In the neighborhood of what large city that we would know about?
A The next big town there, as I remember it, was Kirowograd.
Q Is it far from Krementschuk?
A Yes.
Q You can't orient it a little better for us? You have got us in the midst of the Ukraine here, and we don't know where we are, exactly.
A If you drive around Tscerkasse and touch Kirowograd on the right, you reach Fyidarky because it lies directly on the highway.
Q How many kilometers is it from Tscerkasse?
A It was a long distance. It took us about thirty hours, I think, although, of course, we stopped frequently because the highway was a very bad one. The distance is considerable; I think it is about eighty kilometers, I should say.
Q When was this? When did you arrive in Fyidarky?
AAt the beginning of August.
Q Now -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What year?
MR. FULKERSON: At the beginning of August, sir.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What year?
MR. FULKERSON: Oh, what year....
WITNESS: Nineteen forty-one.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q All these incidents that you describe which took place while you were attached to the Viking Division occurred in 1941, did they not?
A Yes.
Q Now, what happened at Fyidarky?
A In Fyidarky members of the Butchers' platoon who were in the village in order to recapture a piece of cattle observed a civilian who ran through the village. Two of them immediately identified him as a Jew and brought him to the camp. The Buchers' platoon and the supply office were both in the same camp. One of the SS-men, called Otto Kirsch, was given the orders by his office to shoot that Jew. As he did not realize or did not see what the Jew had ever done against him, he refused to carry out the order.
Q And then what happened?
A Tschentscher ordered -
Q Now, wait a minute. Tschentscher hasn't come into the picture yet. You just said that Kirsch was ordered to shoot this Jew, and that he refused to do it because he didn't see that the Jew had done anything against him. Now, how did Tschentscher get into the picture?
AAs an incident of that sort -- a man not carrying out an order -can only be dealt with by the commander.
Q He was then reported to Tschentscher for insubordination, is that it?
A Yes.
Q And then what happened?
AAfter Kirsch returned from Tschentscher he told us -- not only me but other comrades -- that Tschentscher had told him "We are fighting a war, and one or two more lives do not matter," and even reached for his pistol. That incident is not an isolated one, and not only against Jews, but there was another one directed at an SS-man called Schaefer -
Q Now, wait a minute, this story that you just told is not clear yet. You say that Kirsch was reported to Tschentscher for insubordination?
A Yes.
Q Then was he ordered to appear before Tschentscher?
A Yes.
Q And then what happened?
A He had to report in the official way to him.
Q And then what was the colloquy that took place between Kirsch and Tschentscher?
A What he said there I don't know in detail, but I know that it means when you have to report to your commander. It means SS-man "X" reports to the commander; then the man is being dealt with for whatever offense he may have committed either in a disciplinary way or......
Q Well, what did Tschentscher say to Kirsch, if you know what he said or if you heard what he said?
A "We are in the middle of a battle, and a few more lives here or there do not matter."
Q And what did Kirsch say to Tschentscher? What was his response to Tschentscher's remark?
A First of all, he stood there and did nothing, and when Tschentscher reached for his gun and Kirsch said so himself, Kirsch turned around -
Q In other words, Tschentscher -
THE PRESIDENT: Turned around -- and then what?
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honors please, we haven't got it clear what happened up to the time he turned around.
THE PRESIDENT: It is perfectly clear: Kirsch reported to Tschentscher; Tschentscher reached for his gun and said "We are fighting a war; one or more lives won't make any difference." When he said that Kirsch turned around.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q All right, then after Kirsch turned around, what did he do?
A Kirsch simply stood there, and he told us "if Tschentscher had shot at me, I wouldn't have been able to do anything. He simply would have shot at me. He would have had to shoot me in the back, and I would have died with the consciousness that I had been murdered.
Q What happened to this Jew?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute; let's get Kirsch out of there.
MR. FULKERSON: All right.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q How did you hear about this?
THE PRESIDENT: Now, wait a minute. Kirsch is standing there and Tschentscher has a gun pointed at him, at his back. Obviously, he didn't shoot him.
How did Kirsch get away from Tschentscher?
WITNESS: Tschentscher screamed at him and chased him out of the office. That is all that happened.
THE PRESIDENT: See how quick it happens.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, how did you hear about this?
A. Other comrades and I heard the story from Kirsch himself. He told us immediately and he had no reason to tell us something which was not true at that time.
Q. Now, where was the next such incident as this -- oh, I'm sorry, you never did answer the question of what happened to this Jew.
A. What I heard was another member of the supply office was given the order to shoot the Jew, and he carried it out.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who gave him the order? Who gave him the order?
THE WITNESS: That order came from the office, and that means it comes from the commander - that is to say, Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher. BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, where and when did the next such incident take place, if you know of any more?
A. From Fyidarky we moved on to Lasowatka, which was not very far from Dnjepropetrowsk, at a distance of about eighty kilometers. There, apart from a reconnaissance raid on partisan activities, nothing happened. We went on to Dnjepropetrowsk and on from there to NowoMoskowsk. I had trouble with my truck and I did not return to my unit after that.
Q. All right, now did you notice any such atrocities as you have just described in Dnjepropetrowsk?
A. I remained in the neighborhood of Dnjepropetrowsk for some time. I knew that that was desertion. But I had taken such precautions that I would be able to get the various passes and vouchers from the transportation units of the Wehrmacht which attested to the fact that I had looked after my truck properly, although under difficult circumstances--
Q. Excuse me. Wait a minute. You were absent without leave during this time that you described?
A. Yes.