MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, to go to the indoctrination course which you say you received as a member of this division.
A. We were given lessons by Tschentscher himself in Dachau where he explained the ideology of National Socialism. He described Jews as vermin and as the ones who were guilty of having started the war.
Q. How many of these lectures did Tschentscher give?
A. These lectures lasted for about an hour, and he gave about six of them. One was about the supply services, one the question of getting married as an SS man, and then the question of the race and and settlement office. The other lectures were about the position of National Socialism towards the war.
Q. Including the Jewish question?
A. Yes, the position of National Socialism concerns everything.
Q. Now, we take it that the indoctrination course was completed while you were at Dachau?
A. Yes. We were once again told about the ideology of the SS by another officer of the supply services. It was not purely a lesson or school course. We had a sort of discussion. We had the antithesis between the Christian and the National Socialist ideology. It was emphasized that the Christian ideology had been invented by Jews and was therefore wrong for an educated man.
Q. Now, after the Division was actually moved into Poland and Russia, did you hear any more lectures on the subject of the Jewish question?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any connection with this, did you have any reason to consider the question as a member of the supply troops of this division?
A. While we advanced through Poland as far as Lublin in the Polish villages, which in some cases were inhabited mostly by Jews, the men led by the officers took photographs and ridiculed the Jews in their peculiar clothes.
Q. But-
DR. VON STAKELBERG (For Defendant Fanslau) Excuse me, Mr. President, I am afraid I didn't understand the answer. The witness speaks so silently, could he perhaps be asked to speak a little more loudly?
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess so he can catch his breath.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. FULKERSON: Before I proceed with the examination, I would like to make a request on behalf of Dr. von Stakelberg who would like to Court to make an order that this witness Otto not communicate with another witness, Arthur Sauer, who will testify later, between now and the time that Sauer takes the stand. We have no objection -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will make the order; it is up to the prison authorities to enforce it.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
You see, Your Honor, Sauer isn't even in Nurnberg right now-much less in jail. And this (Otto) is a voluntary witness, and he isn't in jail either.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, neither one of them is in jail.
MR. FULKERSON: No, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all we can do is tell them to be good. We will do that.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, I would like to ask you this: When did you first get in touch with the Prosecution in this case?
A. On the 15th of July, 1947. I was at the office for former political persecutees, in Munich.
Q. But how did you happen to get in touch with the Prosecution, the American Prosecution, in this case, here in Nurnberg?
A. There at the office I saw the appeal of the Military Tribunal in Nurnberg for witnesses in the trial against Pohl and associates. I got in touch with the gentleman at that office, and he referred me to Hochheim at Dachau.
Q. And then at Dachau you were referred to someone here at Nurnberg?
A. At Dachau the evidence branch of the Military Court in Dachau requested me to go immediately to Nurnberg, and there to report to Major Klein, in Room 115.
Q. And it was then, only in the middle of July, that you first had any communication with the lawyers for the Prosecution, or with the interrogators, or with anyone else connected with this case?
A. No, the first time I got in touch with Hochheim, and he asked me to go to Nurnberg; and on the 18th of July I went to Major Klein, and then to Mr. Wolf, and he personally sent me to Mr. Higgins, and he to Mr. Fulkerson ... and there I gave my testimony.
Q. Tinkers to Evans to Chance....
THE PRESIDENT: Known as the run-around.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, to resume to the line of questioning that we were discussing, what was the organization of the supply battalion of which you were a member. How many companies did it have in it? What was its general organizational set-up?
A. The organizational set-up of the administrative services consisted of the A.P.O., the field treasury, the food office. As the first company, the bakery company; as the second company, the meat supply group, the slaughtering unit under the leadership of company three.
Q. Then, to sum up, there was the staff which also included the paymaster's office; then there was the administrative company, the meat supply company and the bakers company -
Shall I repeat the question?
INTERPRETER: No, it is all right.
MR. FULKERSON: Has he answered?
INTERPRETER; No, he didn't hear the question.
THE WITNESS: And the food office.
Q. Now in which company were you?
A. In the, the meat supply unit.
Q. What was your particular job there?
A. I was transferred there from Berlin as driver.
Q. And you were a truck driver the whole time you were attached to this division.
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of this division again?
MR. FULKERSON: The Viking Division, if your Honors please.
THE WITNESS: Viking.
MR. FULKERSON: If Your Honors please, the reason for that was that, as the witness has just testified, most combat units, as opposed to administrative and supply units of this division were made up of Scandinavian volunteers, Dutch, Swedes -
THE PRESIDENT: Norwegians.
MR. FULKERSON: Norwegians, Danes.
Q. Now, how far was the supply troop or the administrative battalion behind the front lines, behind the combat troops?
A. That differed quite a great deal, sometimes 20 to 30 kilometres, but it also happened that they were 80 to 100 kilometres away from the front.
Q. And this meat supply company to which you were attached had the job of slaughtering cattle in these various towns and villages, where it was situated and then you hauled the dressed meat to the combat units?
A. The food office or the administrative offices had the drivers of these companies call for their food from the administrative or meat supply companies themselves and then they went back to the front.
Q. But there were some tricks attached to the meat supply company itself?
A. Yes.
Q. And you drove on of these?
A. I drove on of those trucks for the transporting of cattle and for requisition of cattle and that was used for requisitioning of cattle.
Q. I see, the division requisitioned its own cattle as it went along from the natives of the place where they happened to be?
A. Yes, the commitment of the Administrative Services for that work Tschentscher was in charge of them and their orders were to the effect that the food for the division was to consist of fresh meat that they had abtained from the Colchoz proper, since supply from home to a great distance was impossible.
Q. Now, did the Supply Battalion, the Administrative Battalion, of which Tschentscher was Commanding Officer, ever put any of these ideas with respect to the Jewish question into action?
A. I didn't quite understand you right now.
(The interpreter repeated the question.
A. I could observe during the advance that in the Anti-Semitic problem is which the SS was trained the orders of the Viking Division of the SS, as a racial example of the entire SS not only once, but several times, obeyed.
Q. Well, you mean that you saw examples of the mistreatment of Jews by the people in your own outfit?
A. Yes.
DR. KRAUS (Attorney for the Defendant Tschentscher): Your Honor, I object to the manner of questioning. Constantly leading question are being asked of the witness. I believe that the prosecutor should be limited to asking factual and real questions of the witness which he then can answer. I recall that the proceeding question was put in such a general manner that now in the form of a leading question they are trying to get something out of the witness, which, in truth, he did not mean to say. I object to the constant putting of leading to this witness during the direct examination.
MR. FULKERSON: I apologize profusely.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) What mistreatment of the Jews by members-
A. What did you say? I beg your pardon.
Q What mistreatment of Jews by members of your battalion did you ever see?
A. I did not quite understand you.
Q. Did you ever see any members of your battalion mistreating Jews?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time that you saw men from your battalion mistreating Jews?
A. For the first time I saw it when we went through Poland, when all the unit or the members of the administrative units went to look for Poles in the localities and then made photographs and enjoyed seizing the Jews and were incited to this by their Unterfuehrer and lower leaders.
Q. And in the neighborhood of what city or village was that?
A. That was during the entire campaign through Poland where there was an overwhelmingly Jewish population.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I didn't quite catch just what you saw.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Give us a description of one example of mistreatment of Jews, if you ever saw one.
THE PRESIDENT: Your question is a little complicated. Tell us what you saw.
THE WITNESS: Am I supposed to describe the exact course of events of Zclozow and Dogdanovska, or only an individual fact?
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Well, Zclozow first. What happened in Zclozow? What did you see in Zclozow?
A. I was transferred from the meat supply unit to the food office and since vehicles were short at the food office and after we went from Lemberg up to Zclozow in the direction of Tarnopol, the food office, we had to remain stationary, since the bridge which was between the citadel and the city was damaged. I was in the vehicle behind Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher and Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau. The leading vehicle was Tschentscher's command car and the next vehicle was mine. That is I was close to the bridge, and was able to see that Jews were gathered by members of the units of the Administrative Services and the Bakery Company and Meat Supply Unit and also members of the First Mountain Division to rebuild this bridge.
Q. Excuse me. Was it ordinarily the work of a Bakers Company or a Meat Supply Company to rebuild a damaged bridge? Why were you doing that?
A. The bridge was needed for the advance and had to be completed. I believe there were no engineers of the German Wehrmacht and therefore in this case the Jews and the Galicial population was used for that construction job.
Q. Did you actually see Jews being used in this bridge repair operation?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What were they doing?
A. They had to carry heavy pieces of wood and they had to bring them along for the fortifications of the bridge.
Q. Now, I want you to describe in your own words, what you saw happen there on the bridge that day. Please speak slowly and distinctly.
A. I was very close to the bridge in my vehicle and I observed the Jews. Many of them were apparently weak and were driven on by the members of the First Mountaineer Division with their rifle butts and driven through a column made up of the Supply Division and Units of the Mountaineers on the bomb crate which was made there in the previous fighting. There the officers of the Administrative Services, for instance, Oberstumfuehrer Braunagel, Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf, Unterfuehere Kocholaty, and Unterfuchrer Metzger shot them down after the Jews had been pushed into the crater.
Q. Were either of these defendants present on that occasion? Did you see them?
THE PRESIDENT: Name the defendant in this trial that you saw there, if you saw any of them?
A. One Jew, who had seen that there was no point in going on with this and that it looked as if death was waiting for him anyway threw this piece of wood down. That Jew was watched by Fanslau and Taschentscher dying in the water, when he asked them to shoot him down so that the torture would end they finally shot him after he was in the swamp up to his chin.
Q. How did this Jew get into the swamp? You say he was on the bridge?
A. He threw the wood down. Tschentscher and Fanslau immediately grabbed him by his arm and pushed him into the swamp near the bridge.
Q. Now, you actually saw that with your own eyes?
A. I saw that with my own eyes. What I saw describe as having seen, and what I have heard, I would tell you as if I had only heard it.
Q. There is no possibility that you might have failed to recognize these defendants?
AAfter all, as a member of the Administrative Division, I should know my commanding officer, if they become guilty of such acts.
Q Now, to return to the other scene that you described. I believe that you said that there was a double column of men formed and that the Jews were driven through this column and into a bomb crater, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q But who were the men who made up this double line, this gamut through which the Jews were driven?
A I could give you a few names. They were part of the Supply Unit: Blach was one of them, Helm and Jessen; then the members of the Bakery Division - I can not give you the names of any men. I don't remember them.
Q And you say there were also some members of this First Mountain Division there, as well?
A No, they were members of the Meat Supply Unit and Bakery Company. The Mountain Division people I did not know at all.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I don't quite yet get this picture. That is, you came to a bridge and the bridge had to be rebuilt and the Jews were brought in to repair the bridge. Where did those Jews come from?
THE WITNESS: These Jews, most of them, were taken by the SS Unit on their own initiative from the village of Zclozow. And the members of those units were in the town, although there was an order that members of Biwack should not leave the camp.
MR. FULKERSON: Is it clear to you now, Your Honor?
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q And these Jews who were being driven through this line, what had they done?
A They were extremely weak and under the old slogan, "Who cannot do any more work is of no use", they were driven through the double column with the rifle butts and bayonets, driven on until they reached the bomb crater and there they were shot down into the bomb crater by the Oberscharfuehrer of the Bakery Division, and the other people were standing around and shot them down in the bomb crater not by one shot but by several shots, and Fanslau and Tschentscher who were standing around took part in this.
Q And these were Jews who had formerly been used to carry heavy timbers and so forth for the repair of the bridge?
A Yes.
Q And these two incidents that you have just described both took place on the same day and at the same place?
AAt the same place and within two hours.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How many Jews were killed there?
THE WITNESS: We then drove on -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: One minute. How many Jews were killed there at the bomb crater and around the bridge on this occasion that you have just described?
THE WITNESS: At least thirty or forty Jews.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Counsel, when he referred to the shooting operation he used the pronoun "they".
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q When you said that "they shot" the Jews who were pushed into the bomb crater after having been driven through this line, whom did you mean?
A I did not understand now.
(The interpreter repeated the question).
A Simply the double column made up of members of the slaughter unit, and of the Bakers Unit, the Supply Unit which formed part of the Mountain Troops.
Q You said, I believe, that there was a circle of men standing around the bomb crater?
A They formed a column, a double column, and their members and leader shot them down once they had been pushed into the bomb crater.
Q Now, when you said that Fanslau and Tschentscher were there, where were they?
A I observed them myself at least twenty minutes standing at the bomb crater and taking part in the execution and these excesses.
Q Then Fanslau and Tschentscher were standing at the edge of this bomb crater there which was at the end of this double column?
A Yes, after the Jews had been pushed into the crater, they....
DR. VON STAKELBERG (Attorney for the Defendant Fanslau): I object to this leading question, I object to this question, because it is a leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: He has already testified to it. He already has told us about this and Counsel is asking him to repeat it. He said it before.
MR. FULKERSON: I think you had better turn up the microphone, because the witness is hard of hearing. I think that is one of our troubles here.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q Now were there any other similar events that occurred at Zclozow?
A I have not seen any other occurrences at Zclozow. We had left about two hours and went on to the village at Bogdanovska. By that time it was about six or eight o'clock in the evening. We went to our billet.
Q All right. Now did you see anything of this sort happen in Bogdanovska?
A In Bogdanovska we went to our billets and after we had parked our vehicles, most of the members of the unit went through the village and I also came to the synagogue of that village. As we knew that it was not forbidden for us to take a few souvenirs of our advance in the occupied enemy territory particularly from a synagogue, some of us went inside. Suddenly Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher appear ed and chased us out.
He took the straw which was outside in the neighborhood, put it into gasoline and set fire to the synagogue.
Q And you saw that with your own eyes?
A Yes. We saw that with our own eyes.
Q What excuse did he give? What reason did he give for doing such a thing?
A He gave no excuse at all. He merely chased us out of the synagogue. Scharfuehrer Martin, of the Administrative Battalion, who was the propaganda expert in the propaganda company just managed to take one souvenir along with him.
Q. Now, did any other occurrence such as this happen at Bogdanovska?
A. When the daily orders were issued, the rumor was confirmed officially that Standartenfuehrer Hilmar Weggele, the commander of the Eastland Regiment, had been shot by Jews. Orders were given to search for arms, which were issued by Tschentscher personally, and the order said that the order of the divisional commander, as Weggele had been killed, nobody would be held responsible if he killed a Jew.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. (Interruption) Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) You say that orders were issued.
Who issued these orders? Did Tschentscher issue the orders?
A. Nobody would be held responsible for killing a Jew since Weggele had been killed by a Jew.
Q. Was this a formal order that Tschentscher read?
A. This was the first official confirmation that Weggele had been killed.
DR. KRAUS (for defendant Tschentscher): My colleagues and I are no longer getting the translation through now.
MR. FULKERSON: They can't hear the German now.
INTERPRETER: If I do both languages, they both can hear me.
THE PRESIDENT: How does this work now? The question will be asked in English, you will translate it into German, which the counsel can hear, the witness will answer in German, and you will repeat the answer in English - you will translate it into English.
MR. FULKERSON: That way we won't get it in the German.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. He will translate it. That's all right if a Russian doesn't walk in.
DR. KRAUS (for defendant Tschentscher): I wish to state that it is impossible for me to hear the answer of the witness in German direct. I request, therefore, that the witness can be heard direct over the microphone.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, you sit over there. Sit over there at the end of the table, then.
DR. KRAUS: May I point out that the defendants are equally interested to hear the witness themselves, rather than the translated answer.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, oh--
DR. KRAUS: I was wondering whether, in view of these circumstances, today's meeting could not be adjourned.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it won't he any easier tomorrow. We will have the same witness.
INTERPRETER: I think, sir, we will have to go back to the old system again. The difficulty is with the witness -- he's a little hard of hearing.
THE PRESIDENT: We will have to cope with the difficulty in that case, and repeat it if necessary. Now, will you unscramble this, and go back--
DR. VON STAKELBERG (for defendant Fanslau): Perhaps the witness could be asked to talk more clearly and loudly.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is doing his best. He is hard of hearing and he has a flat voice that is very difficult to hear anyway; it is because of his hearing. We will try it again.
MR. FULKERSON: Now--
THE PRESIDENT: Where were we?
MR. FULKERSON: Now we were talking about an order which Tschentscher read.
Q. Do you remember, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. I want you to describe this order more particularly, and describe also when it was read to you. Under what circumstances it was read to you.
A. It was read to all members of the supply service following the usual order of the day which had arranged for a search for arms.
Q. And how did this order begin?
A. By orders of the Divisional Commander.
Q. And who was this commander.
A. Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau.
MR. FULKERSON: Excuse me, but we are getting that the other way around. I think we would do better if you translate that "administrative office" because that "division" will give the impression-
Do you understand the difficulty there? He meant the Verwaltungsintendant, the Administrative Officer, not the Commanding Officer of the division.
A. (By the witness) How do you mean-- you mean the commander - commanding officer of the administration?
MR. FULKERSON: No, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the translator.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, you have described the order which you heard at the evening roll call. What else, if anything, did you see in connection with anti-semitic activities at Tarnopol by the men of your outfit?
A. In Bogdanovska itself on the next morning Oberscharfuehrer Semm, the technical officer of the maintenance squadron, went through the village with Rottenfuehrer Schmidt and drove three Jews ahead of themselves, who each carried a spade.
Q. Why were they driving three Jews ahead of them?
A. They had been brought together during the night. Why? That's probably because all Jews were to be shot. This was part of a so-called reprisal action for the death of Standartenfuehrer Weggele.
Q. All right. Then what happened to these three Jews?
A. These three Jews were taken out of the village by the two above mentioned men, and then after they had to dig their own graves they were shot down with a tommy gun by Oberscharfuehrer Semm.
Q. Were you there? Did you see this?
A. I saw the Jews themselves when they were going through the village with a spade on their back, on their shoulder, and one of the Jews was accompanied by his son, who was crying.
That crying irritated either Hauptsturmbannfuehrer Fanslau or so. Anyway, he called out to Oberscharfuehrer Semm that if this boy doesn't stop crying and go on his way he will have to look on.
Q. Now, that incident-- In other words, if the boy didn't go away and quit crying, Fanslau said he would have to witness his father being shot, was that the idea?
A. Yes. That was not only the idea, that is the precise statement of all that happened at the reprisal action for Weggele's death.
Q. Now, from Bogdanovska, where did you go?
A. From Bogdanovska the supply unit went on, after it had stayed there for about 15 or 16 hours, to Tarnopol, arriving there the same evening.
Q. Did you see any incidents of this sort at Tarnopol?
A. In Tarnopol I was sent back from the supply unit to the slaughter unit, and on the following morning I escorted a transport of cattle from the stables to the slaughterhouse in my vehicle. When I reached the slaughterhouse with the cattle, I observed Jews getting in order and cleaning up the floor of the very dirty slaughterhouse.
Q. How did you know they were Jews?
A. Above all, the way they spoke, the way they behaved, and especially the frightened way when they were driven on in their work.
Q. Did the Jews in that region speak a special dialect?
A. The racial German speaks a clear, rather good German; Ukranians spoke little German; but I shall never forget how these Jews talked German, because they spoke Yiddish.
Q. That was one way that they could be recognized - by the fact that they spoke Yiddish?
A. And the other way was the long kaftan gown they wore - the long gown, which nearly every Jew wore, and the color of their eyes and hair.
Q. You say that you observed Jews while you were there, being used to clean up the slaughterhouse.
What was done with these Jews when the outfit left there?
A. The supply office went away early, but when I and the slaughter column joined them again I was told that all Jews had been shot when the unit left. My explanation is there that when the responsible officers of the administrative office stood together Hauptsturmfuehrer Schenkel, Hauptsturmfuehrer Meister, and others stated with regard to an order by the divisional staff that the Jews had to be herded together in a ghetto; then Schenkel said that this only meant unnecessary work, upon which Tschentscher, who was standing there, agreed and nodded.
Q. Did you see this? Did you hear this conversation?
A. All leaders, nearly all of the supply office, were standing nearby, and we were just busy loading up supplies.
Q. Was it general knowledge, generally talked about in your outfit, that at the time the last troops left Tarnopol all the Jews that had been used there were shot?
A. Those who were doing this regarded this as making their task easier.
Q. They were proud of it?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 19 August 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 August 1947, 0930-1630 - Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
GUNTHER OTTO - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
MR. FULKERSON: If your Honors please, I would like to make this journey on this magic carpet over the Ukraine that the witness has taken us on a little bit easier to follow. I have prepared a rough sketch here of that part of Russia and Poland that he is describing, and you can see the names of most of these towns. I thought it might make it easier. I am not introducing this as an exhibit.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Witness, when we concluded yesterday you had just described the incidents that you saw at Tarnopol. In reading the transcript, however, it is not too clear exactly what you meant when you described these two incidents which took place at Zclezew near the site of this shattered bridge. Now, as I understood you, there were two incidents in one actually. One was a kind of general execution of Jews in which the Jews who had become too weak to work were driven through a gamut, or double line, which ended on the edge of a bomb crater, and the other incident that you described was an isolated incident in which the only participants were the Defendants Tschentscher and Fanslau and the victim. Now, I want you to describe again these two incidents and make it clear that you are not mixing the two up as you describe them. This was at Zclezew.
A. Then our unit went through the village of Zclezew and reached the bridge at the eastern exit. The bridge had not been blown up. It was merely damaged by the strong traffic and transportation of the various units using it. I was in a position to observe that Jews, when the bridge was being refortified, worked in the following way: They had to carry very heavy poles of wood and timber. Some of the Jews collapsed through sheer weakness. The timber was too heavy, and frightened as they were, they worked at double speed. These Jews were driven on and were driven towards the swamp by a gamut, a double column which was made up by members of the bakers' and butchers' companies, as well as of the First Mountaineer Division. They were driven on with rifle butts and were beaten with the rifle butts, driven on until at the end of the double line they reached the edge of the crater, and there they saw their fellow Jews inside already. But they were pushed into it by Oberscharfuehrer Sell. The crater was surrounded by the officers and leaders of the butchers' and bakers' companies in a semicircle. Tschentscher and Fanslau joined them later, as did the officers of the First Mountaineer Division. They shot at the Jews who had been pushed into the crater by Oberschartfuhrer Sell.
Q. That was the first incident. Now describe again the other incident which occurred on the bridge in which only Fanslau and Tschentscher were involved.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Just a minute, what happened to the Jews that were shot at in the Crater?
A. What happened to them?
Q. Yes.
A. They were shot to death. Most of them were finished by four or five shots into the head. The Mountaineer -- the members of the Mountaineer Division pointed out the Jews who still showed signs of life.