Q. Concerning the other facts stated in your affidavit, are they according to your best knowledge and belief true? Are they true according to your best knowledge and belief?
A. Yes, as far as I know and can recall. I cannot speak in as well informed a manner about Vogt as I can about Moeckl.
Q. I'm talking about the rest of your affidavit. You wish to make changes in those respects, you said. Are there any other changes that you want to make in your affidavit?
A. This point about production was not quite correct, under 12, V/III/b.
Q. That's been included in 636, NO-4154. Now, you have two affidavits before you, one marked 4007 and the other 4154.
A. Yes. In the case of Affidavit 4154, paragraph 12.
Q. I ask you if there are any other changes that you wish to make in your affidavit.
A. No, no. Only this bit under V/III/b, since we are not concerned with production. The production was taken care of by the Reich Quartermaster General. That department merely issued the regulations as to uniforms.
Q. The other correction concerns Vogt in V/II on the chart?
A. Yes, Paragraph 11. That is how I recall it, that Main Department Chief Moeckl was there and that later on shortly before I left Vogt did not become a Main Department Chief, but he seemed to be working on the duties of a deputy or was a least earmarked as such.
Q. Then you wish to say it was your impression that he was in charge of this office?
A. Yes, that was my impression, only as a temporary expedient. I didn't know whether Moeckl had left for good or for a time; and it was my impression that Vogt was in charge.
Q. Now, moving on to another matter. Disregarding these two points that we have just mentioned, are there any other changes that you wish to make in your two affidavits?
A. Only this point about production under paragraph 12.
Q. Yes, I understand, and I mean in addition to that.
A. No, nothing in addition to that.
Q. You stand on these two affidavits with the exception of those two points?
A. Yes, indeed.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
DR. VON STEIN (For Defendant Eirenschmalz): I have only a very few questions, if Your Honors, please.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, you were asked just now whether you would stand by your two affidavits as you gave them, with the exception of those two changes which do not concern construction matters. I would like to ask you whether all the things you told us before in your examination, whether you maintain those things, and whether, therefore, your two affidavits are supplemented by you?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. I mean by that your testimony concerning the construction tasks taken care of by Eirenschmalz concerning concentration camps because according to your affidavits it looked from the beginning as though Eirenschmalz had been busy at some period of time with those tasks, but you told us just now that you couldn't say with extra exactitude how that organizational chart was really carried out in actual practice. All the statements you gave us before on the position of Eirenschmalz are correct, even if they were not contained in your two affidavits, is that correct?
A. Yes, they are.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean, did he tell the truth to the Tribunal?
DR. VON STEIN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I assume that he would answer that yes.
DR. VON STEIN: If the Tribunal please, I only wanted to ask that because the Prosecution have asked him whether he would stand by his affidavits completely with the exception of those two changes which are not concerned with the construction services.
I wanted to make it quite clear that his statements and testimony should be taken into consideration here.
THE PRESIDENT: You want him to stand by his testimony and the Prosecution wants him to stand by his affidavits, and he says yes in both cases.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: O.K.
DR. VON STEIN: I have one further question, if your Honors please one single, tiny, small question.
Q. (By Dr. Von Stein): Witness, you told us that Reidl twice or three times came to see Eirenschmalz?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us whether this was an official call?
A. No, I can't.
Q. It might have been a social call?
A. I don't know why he called.
DR. VON STEIN: I have no further questions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just one question, even smaller than the one that you put.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. You spoke of C/V constructing the crematoria in concentration camps. Did C/V have its own construction crews, do you know, at Dachau?
A. No, they were only the organizational office, the inspectorate of the central office and the building management. The building management is the executive agency. They issue orders to firms. The firms then carry out the orders against a bill, and the bill will be submitted to the auditing department. It is also possible that the building management does not use a firm at all, that the building management simply used inmates to carry out their projects, as it were, as a building firm does.
Carpenters and stone masons are being hired.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is enough. It was only a small question to give an answer.
(Witness excused.)
GUENTHER OTTO, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DR. VON STAKELBERG (For Defendant Fanslau): If the Tribunal please, I have been informed that this witness is Witness Otto, in other words, a witness who has been recently announced as against Fanslau. I repeat once more my request and the objections which I made yesterday to the admission of any evidence about to be submitted by the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: The same objection from any other counsel?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, naturally we cannot rule on it until we see what he is going to testify. Maybe he does not know anything.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. State your name, please.
A. Otto, Guenther. Otto is my family name. Guenther is my Christian name.
Q. Where were you born, when?
A. On 23 January, 1920, at Gottesberg in Silesia.
Q. Where did you go to school and for how long?
A. From first of April, 1926, to the first of April, 1934, in the secondary school, and the last six months I went to Protestant school.
Q. You were of military age then when the war broke out?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And were you in the Army, in the Wehrmacht?
A. On 8 February 1940 I went into Infantry Battalion 419.
Q. And that was in the Army, not the SS?
A. Yes, it was the Wehrmacht.
Q. And where were you first stationed when you went into the Wehrmacht?
A. I was at a place near Hamburg. I lived with a farmer.
Q. But where were you first sent after you went into the Army? Where did you receive your basic training in the Army?
A. With the Infantry Reserve Battalion 469 in Lubeck.
Q. And after your training was completed, to what outfit were you attached?
A. After a brief training I went to the Supply Unit 5300.
Q. And where was your unit sent?
A. On 18 May it was sent to the Western Campaign, in 1940.
Q. And how long did you remain with this outfit?
A. Until 11 December 1940.
Q. And what happened then?
A. When I returned from a brief furlough I was informed that I had to report to Berlin to the Leibstandarte, I had been transferred there and I had to go there immediately.
Q. And you did then report to Berlin where you were a member of the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler?
A. I was given the rank and insignia of a cadette and I was given training as a chauffeur.
Q. And how long were you near Berlin?
A. From 12 December 1940 until 24 January 1941.
Q. Were you then transferred from the Leibstandarte?
A. I was transferred to the Administrative Service of the Viking Division.
Q. Where were the supply services for the Viking Division located?
A. In Dachau, in a factory.
Q. Were the combat troops of the Viking Division Germans?
A. As far as I know they were most of them Germans, but there were also Dutchmen, Norwegians and Danes.
Q. But the supply services were mostly made up of Germans?
A. Yes, they were most of them Germans. At the beginning when the administrative services were built up they were only Germans.
Q. And did you receive further training at Dachau?
A. Yes, we were given military training there at Dachau.
Q. Only military training?
A. No, we were also trained about the significance of National Socialism, about all problems connected with marriage, and all degrees of the conditions a member of the SS was allowed to marry.
Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher informed us about these things.
Q. Tschentscher occupied then what position in this division?
A. Tschentscher was the commanding officer of the supply services of the Viking Division.
Q. And was the unit in which you were directly under his command?
A. Yes.
Q. We are speaking now of the Defendant Tschentscher.
A. Yes.
Q. In this lawsuit. And who was the administrative officer of the Verwaltungintendant of the whole SS division?
A. Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know what the question was to which he just answered.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
MR. FULKERSON: Excuse me, your Honor. The question was who was the administrative officer of the Verwaltungintendant, of the whole SS division, the Viking Division, that was the question. Did you hear the answer?
THE PRESIDENT: The answer was Fanslau.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it was Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, this was during the activation phase of the Viking Division, was it not?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. Was the entire division stationed in one place then, or was it scattered about?
A. The whole division was located at Dachau, around Dachau in the Munich area. Later on it was supplemented by transport and vehicles, etc.
Q. And how long did the division remain at Dachau?
A. The administrative services remained until the 30 of April 1941, whereas the combat units of the division must have left earlier.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Then the whole division was stationed near Hollberg in order to be trained for combat duties.
Q. Where is Hollberg?
A. Not very far from Stuttgart in the area of Thuebingen, Balingen, Ebingen.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Until Whitsun of 1941.
Q. Now, at the time the division left Hollberg, where did it go?
A. The Division Viking was transferred to near Breslau and was trained for combat duties.
Q. And how long was it before the division actually went into combat?
A. We left on the 12th of June roughly, the region of Breslau, I mean, and I think during the last days of June we fought in the Neighborhood of Zamesk.
Q. And where is Zamesk?
A. It is south of Lublin, toward Lemberg.
MR. FULKERSON: A question to your Honors. Am I going into too much detail in this geography? Frankly these names have baffled me when I first heard them. I didn't know where all these places are that we are now going to discuss.
THE PRESIDENT: If it is important for us to know these names -
MR. FULKERSON: I thought, if your Honors please, I would simply trace the course of the division first until he left it so that you will get the general progress and then come back and go on.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all right. We are approaching Lemberg now, I believe.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: I think he said just outside of Lemberg.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir; we are in Poland.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, from Zamesk.
A. The supply services of the Viking Division went from Zamesk to Ravaruska, Zclezow, Bogdanowka, Tarnopol, Zhitomir, Skuira, Byelaya-Tserkow, Beguslav, Smela, Fjidarky, Lajowatka, Novo-Moskowsk. From Novo-Moskowsk we went to Dnjepropetrowsk, because we were to cross the river, and then we went back to Dnjepropetrowsk.
MR. FULKERSON: Just a moment, I believe you are going a little bit too fast for their Honors to follow. Then the last place you have mentioned was in the neighborhood of Dnjepropetrowsk. Have you heard of that, your Honors?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is spelled with a "D".
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, to go to the indoctrination course which you say you received as a member of this division.
A. We were given lessons by Tschentscher himself in Dachau where he explained the ideology of National Socialism. He described Jews as vermin and as the ones who were guilty of having started the war.
Q. How many of these lectures did Tschentscher give?
A. These lectures lasted for about an hour, and he gave about six of them. One was about the supply services, one the question of getting married as an SS man, and then the question of the race and and settlement office. The other lectures were about the position of National Socialism towards the war.
Q. Including the Jewish question?
A. Yes, the position of National Socialism concerns everything.
Q. Now, we take it that the indoctrination course was completed while you were at Dachau?
A. Yes. We were once again told about the ideology of the SS by another officer of the supply services. It was not purely a lesson or school course. We had a sort of discussion. We had the antithesis between the Christian and the National Socialist ideology. It was emphasized that the Christian ideology had been invented by Jews and was therefore wrong for an educated man.
Q. Now, after the Division was actually moved into Poland and Russia, did you hear any more lectures on the subject of the Jewish question?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any connection with this, did you have any reason to consider the question as a member of the supply troops of this division?
A. While we advanced through Poland as far as Lublin in the Polish villages, which in some cases were inhabited mostly by Jews, the men led by the officers took photographs and ridiculed the Jews in their peculiar clothes.
Q. But-
DR. VON STAKELBERG (For Defendant Fanslau) Excuse me, Mr. President, I am afraid I didn't understand the answer. The witness speaks so silently, could he perhaps be asked to speak a little more loudly?
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess so he can catch his breath.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. FULKERSON: Before I proceed with the examination, I would like to make a request on behalf of Dr. von Stakelberg who would like to Court to make an order that this witness Otto not communicate with another witness, Arthur Sauer, who will testify later, between now and the time that Sauer takes the stand. We have no objection -
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will make the order; it is up to the prison authorities to enforce it.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
You see, Your Honor, Sauer isn't even in Nurnberg right now-much less in jail. And this (Otto) is a voluntary witness, and he isn't in jail either.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, neither one of them is in jail.
MR. FULKERSON: No, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all we can do is tell them to be good. We will do that.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, I would like to ask you this: When did you first get in touch with the Prosecution in this case?
A. On the 15th of July, 1947. I was at the office for former political persecutees, in Munich.
Q. But how did you happen to get in touch with the Prosecution, the American Prosecution, in this case, here in Nurnberg?
A. There at the office I saw the appeal of the Military Tribunal in Nurnberg for witnesses in the trial against Pohl and associates. I got in touch with the gentleman at that office, and he referred me to Hochheim at Dachau.
Q. And then at Dachau you were referred to someone here at Nurnberg?
A. At Dachau the evidence branch of the Military Court in Dachau requested me to go immediately to Nurnberg, and there to report to Major Klein, in Room 115.
Q. And it was then, only in the middle of July, that you first had any communication with the lawyers for the Prosecution, or with the interrogators, or with anyone else connected with this case?
A. No, the first time I got in touch with Hochheim, and he asked me to go to Nurnberg; and on the 18th of July I went to Major Klein, and then to Mr. Wolf, and he personally sent me to Mr. Higgins, and he to Mr. Fulkerson ... and there I gave my testimony.
Q. Tinkers to Evans to Chance....
THE PRESIDENT: Known as the run-around.
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. Now, to resume to the line of questioning that we were discussing, what was the organization of the supply battalion of which you were a member. How many companies did it have in it? What was its general organizational set-up?
A. The organizational set-up of the administrative services consisted of the A.P.O., the field treasury, the food office. As the first company, the bakery company; as the second company, the meat supply group, the slaughtering unit under the leadership of company three.
Q. Then, to sum up, there was the staff which also included the paymaster's office; then there was the administrative company, the meat supply company and the bakers company -
Shall I repeat the question?
INTERPRETER: No, it is all right.
MR. FULKERSON: Has he answered?
INTERPRETER; No, he didn't hear the question.
THE WITNESS: And the food office.
Q. Now in which company were you?
A. In the, the meat supply unit.
Q. What was your particular job there?
A. I was transferred there from Berlin as driver.
Q. And you were a truck driver the whole time you were attached to this division.
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of this division again?
MR. FULKERSON: The Viking Division, if your Honors please.
THE WITNESS: Viking.
MR. FULKERSON: If Your Honors please, the reason for that was that, as the witness has just testified, most combat units, as opposed to administrative and supply units of this division were made up of Scandinavian volunteers, Dutch, Swedes -
THE PRESIDENT: Norwegians.
MR. FULKERSON: Norwegians, Danes.
Q. Now, how far was the supply troop or the administrative battalion behind the front lines, behind the combat troops?
A. That differed quite a great deal, sometimes 20 to 30 kilometres, but it also happened that they were 80 to 100 kilometres away from the front.
Q. And this meat supply company to which you were attached had the job of slaughtering cattle in these various towns and villages, where it was situated and then you hauled the dressed meat to the combat units?
A. The food office or the administrative offices had the drivers of these companies call for their food from the administrative or meat supply companies themselves and then they went back to the front.
Q. But there were some tricks attached to the meat supply company itself?
A. Yes.
Q. And you drove on of these?
A. I drove on of those trucks for the transporting of cattle and for requisition of cattle and that was used for requisitioning of cattle.
Q. I see, the division requisitioned its own cattle as it went along from the natives of the place where they happened to be?
A. Yes, the commitment of the Administrative Services for that work Tschentscher was in charge of them and their orders were to the effect that the food for the division was to consist of fresh meat that they had abtained from the Colchoz proper, since supply from home to a great distance was impossible.
Q. Now, did the Supply Battalion, the Administrative Battalion, of which Tschentscher was Commanding Officer, ever put any of these ideas with respect to the Jewish question into action?
A. I didn't quite understand you right now.
(The interpreter repeated the question.
A. I could observe during the advance that in the Anti-Semitic problem is which the SS was trained the orders of the Viking Division of the SS, as a racial example of the entire SS not only once, but several times, obeyed.
Q. Well, you mean that you saw examples of the mistreatment of Jews by the people in your own outfit?
A. Yes.
DR. KRAUS (Attorney for the Defendant Tschentscher): Your Honor, I object to the manner of questioning. Constantly leading question are being asked of the witness. I believe that the prosecutor should be limited to asking factual and real questions of the witness which he then can answer. I recall that the proceeding question was put in such a general manner that now in the form of a leading question they are trying to get something out of the witness, which, in truth, he did not mean to say. I object to the constant putting of leading to this witness during the direct examination.
MR. FULKERSON: I apologize profusely.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) What mistreatment of the Jews by members-
A. What did you say? I beg your pardon.
Q What mistreatment of Jews by members of your battalion did you ever see?
A. I did not quite understand you.
Q. Did you ever see any members of your battalion mistreating Jews?
A. Yes.
Q. When was the first time that you saw men from your battalion mistreating Jews?
A. For the first time I saw it when we went through Poland, when all the unit or the members of the administrative units went to look for Poles in the localities and then made photographs and enjoyed seizing the Jews and were incited to this by their Unterfuehrer and lower leaders.
Q. And in the neighborhood of what city or village was that?
A. That was during the entire campaign through Poland where there was an overwhelmingly Jewish population.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I didn't quite catch just what you saw.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Give us a description of one example of mistreatment of Jews, if you ever saw one.
THE PRESIDENT: Your question is a little complicated. Tell us what you saw.
THE WITNESS: Am I supposed to describe the exact course of events of Zclozow and Dogdanovska, or only an individual fact?
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Well, Zclozow first. What happened in Zclozow? What did you see in Zclozow?
A. I was transferred from the meat supply unit to the food office and since vehicles were short at the food office and after we went from Lemberg up to Zclozow in the direction of Tarnopol, the food office, we had to remain stationary, since the bridge which was between the citadel and the city was damaged. I was in the vehicle behind Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher and Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau. The leading vehicle was Tschentscher's command car and the next vehicle was mine. That is I was close to the bridge, and was able to see that Jews were gathered by members of the units of the Administrative Services and the Bakery Company and Meat Supply Unit and also members of the First Mountain Division to rebuild this bridge.
Q. Excuse me. Was it ordinarily the work of a Bakers Company or a Meat Supply Company to rebuild a damaged bridge? Why were you doing that?
A. The bridge was needed for the advance and had to be completed. I believe there were no engineers of the German Wehrmacht and therefore in this case the Jews and the Galicial population was used for that construction job.
Q. Did you actually see Jews being used in this bridge repair operation?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What were they doing?
A. They had to carry heavy pieces of wood and they had to bring them along for the fortifications of the bridge.
Q. Now, I want you to describe in your own words, what you saw happen there on the bridge that day. Please speak slowly and distinctly.
A. I was very close to the bridge in my vehicle and I observed the Jews. Many of them were apparently weak and were driven on by the members of the First Mountaineer Division with their rifle butts and driven through a column made up of the Supply Division and Units of the Mountaineers on the bomb crate which was made there in the previous fighting. There the officers of the Administrative Services, for instance, Oberstumfuehrer Braunagel, Obersturmfuehrer Stumpf, Unterfuehere Kocholaty, and Unterfuchrer Metzger shot them down after the Jews had been pushed into the crater.
Q. Were either of these defendants present on that occasion? Did you see them?
THE PRESIDENT: Name the defendant in this trial that you saw there, if you saw any of them?
A. One Jew, who had seen that there was no point in going on with this and that it looked as if death was waiting for him anyway threw this piece of wood down. That Jew was watched by Fanslau and Taschentscher dying in the water, when he asked them to shoot him down so that the torture would end they finally shot him after he was in the swamp up to his chin.
Q. How did this Jew get into the swamp? You say he was on the bridge?
A. He threw the wood down. Tschentscher and Fanslau immediately grabbed him by his arm and pushed him into the swamp near the bridge.
Q. Now, you actually saw that with your own eyes?
A. I saw that with my own eyes. What I saw describe as having seen, and what I have heard, I would tell you as if I had only heard it.
Q. There is no possibility that you might have failed to recognize these defendants?
AAfter all, as a member of the Administrative Division, I should know my commanding officer, if they become guilty of such acts.
Q Now, to return to the other scene that you described. I believe that you said that there was a double column of men formed and that the Jews were driven through this column and into a bomb crater, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q But who were the men who made up this double line, this gamut through which the Jews were driven?
A I could give you a few names. They were part of the Supply Unit: Blach was one of them, Helm and Jessen; then the members of the Bakery Division - I can not give you the names of any men. I don't remember them.
Q And you say there were also some members of this First Mountain Division there, as well?
A No, they were members of the Meat Supply Unit and Bakery Company. The Mountain Division people I did not know at all.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I don't quite yet get this picture. That is, you came to a bridge and the bridge had to be rebuilt and the Jews were brought in to repair the bridge. Where did those Jews come from?
THE WITNESS: These Jews, most of them, were taken by the SS Unit on their own initiative from the village of Zclozow. And the members of those units were in the town, although there was an order that members of Biwack should not leave the camp.
MR. FULKERSON: Is it clear to you now, Your Honor?
BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q And these Jews who were being driven through this line, what had they done?
A They were extremely weak and under the old slogan, "Who cannot do any more work is of no use", they were driven through the double column with the rifle butts and bayonets, driven on until they reached the bomb crater and there they were shot down into the bomb crater by the Oberscharfuehrer of the Bakery Division, and the other people were standing around and shot them down in the bomb crater not by one shot but by several shots, and Fanslau and Tschentscher who were standing around took part in this.