Q. How long had he been gone?
A. I never saw him again until the day I left myself. Whether discontinued temporarily or terminated altogether I can't tell you.
Q. On what do you base your opinion when you say that during this period of time Vogt deputized for him?
A. Well, I kept meeting Vogt in Pohl's ante room.
Q. This morning you mentioned who was sitting in Pohl's ante room.
A. At that time Frank, Frank as the staff leader. I still can't remember the name of his predecessor. Obersturmbannfuehrerthe name I have forgotten. He was Frank's predecessor.
Q. Do you mean to say that you saw Vogt in the ante room with Frank, sitting there, and you deduced from that Vogt represented the absent Moeckl as deputy?
A. Yes, that is a reasonable conclusion because a normal simple man would not reach Pohl's ante room. The mail was collected in the ante room of the staff leader.
Q. Witness, I have already put to you that Koeberlein regarded this entry as wrong because he says that Vogt to his knowledge was neither Main Department Chief nor a deputy for the Main Department Chief. That is contradictory to your assumption of today. I have also interviewed other witnesses on this point from among the witnesses who have checked this organizational chart and have signed it as correct. This includes Burger, the witness Weggel, the witness Kiener and the witness Willi Burger says that Vogt between 1936 and 1938 was not in charge of the Department nor was he the official deputy.
Q. Well, as far as I am concerned I cannot speak with absolute certainty that Vogt had been appointed Main Department Chief or charged with the whole office. All I know was that Vogt as an expert showed up quite often in the room of the Staff leader.
Q. Do you know the name of Hauptstrumfuehrer Klein of the auditing department?
A. No.
Q. He is described by the witness Burger as the deputy of Moeckel. Do you know anything about that?
A. I do not know all types of personnel in that department. All I know is that Moeckel was Main Department Chief and Vogt for that period of time could not regard himself as Main Department Chief you see but perhaps he thought he would be one in the future.
Q. You say he might be one in the future. Do you know whether later on Vogt became the man in charge of the auditing department?
A. Yes. I did not say Vogt personally but I knew that he was in the WVHA.
Q. Did you know that before the foundation of the WVHA Vogt was in charge of the auditing department with the Army Administrative office or Labor Administrative Office of the Waffen SS?
A. No, I didn't know that. I didn't know the development of the auditing department in detail. All I remember is that Moeckel was there, Vogt was there but the history of the auditing department is beyond me. I know they had a large number of employees and experts.
Q. Witness, you were kind enough some weeks ago to give me a written affidavit. I shall read to you the contents of this affidavit. It is not very long. I have this affidavit here and it is part of my Supplement Document Book II and after it has been translated I shall submit it as an exhibit to the Tribunal.
This is what the witness told me on 25 July 1947.
After the usual introduction "As far as the photostatic copy of the organizational chart submitted to me is concerned, namely, of the administrative office of the SS for the years 1936 to 1938, Document NO-4123, I wish to say this. It is true that I and Friedrich Koeberlein and Paul Reis drew up, asked by the interrogator Pongert, this chart of the administrative office in Munich for the years 1936 to 1938 from my memory. I myself was in charge of Department V/V/B at that time, which dealt with specialized construction matters. I had no contact with the other main departments except for the main treasury in an official manner, that is.
"Therefore, I am not well informed about the other main departments and their organization. Particularly the main department V/II, Auditing, is not too well known to me in its personnel policy. As far as the members of Main Department Auditing are concerned, I remember only two names, Moeckl and Vogt. The names of the other members I no longer recall, nor did I have any contacts with them at the time. I know that Moeckl was the chief of that main department. I believe I still remember that Moeckl in 1938 was absent for some time and that during that period of time I frequently saw Vogt in the anteroom of Pohl. I myself did not know Vogt personally. Of course, whether during that period of time he was in charge of the Main De-partment or deputized for the absent worker I do not know.
"When I drew up the chart, the main emphasis was not on the personnel side of things but on the organization of the administrative office as it really was. I could, therefore, not take it upon myself to say under oath that Vogt was in charge of V/II Auditing. I myself left the administrative office of the SS in August 1938. Of its later development and that of the Main Department V/II I am unable to give any more details."
Q Witness, I have now read to you what you told me at the time, and I should like to ask you whether this is correct, what you told me in writing under oath at the time.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes.
Q You do not wish to say that Vogt at that time, 1936 to 1938, was in charge of the Main Department?
A No.
Q Nor can you say that he was the Deputy Main Department Chief?
A No, I couldn't say that.
Q You couldn't say that. I see.
A The personnel changes occurred in the spring of 1938 at a period of time, that is, when I was soon to leave the office.
DR. SCHMIDT: I have no further questions.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW (for the defendant Georg Loerner): May it please the Court, I have only one brief question.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. MUELLER-THORGOW:
Q Witness, in your second affidavit of 3rd July 1947 it says under Paragraph 12: "V III, Clothing and Equipment. Main Section Chief Georg Loerner. The Main Section was primarily divided according to technical lines, namely, textiles, leather, material. The further subdivision was as follows: "V III a and b." All that is without interest. "V III c, under Bernlochner. Production of the uniforms for the Allgemeine SS."
Witness, you made a mistake there at this point?
A Production is wrong; production is the wrong term.
Q Was it not rather the case that clothing for the Allgemeine SS was handled as a formation of the NSDAP exclusively by the Reich agency?
A Yes, production and supplies for the Allgemeine SS was done by the Reich Quartermaster General, so to speak.
Q Including production?
A Yes; but I don't know where production was made, but it was made through the Reich Quartermaster General. I know that the regulations Court No. II, Case No. 4.on how to make these uniforms came from the SS administration, including the Allgemeine SS.
THE PRESIDENT: What should the word be? If production is the wrong word, what is the right word?
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: Manufacture of uniforms for the Allgemeine SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh. The witness says that there was no manufacture of uniforms through the Allgemeine SS in V/VIII/c; they didn't make uniforms.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: Yes, but he said so in his affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if they didn't make uniforms, what did they do?
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: They issued the regulations for the Department V/III/c as the witness said; merely issued the regulations guiding the production of the uniforms for the Allgemeine SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Specifications? Is that right?
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: Yes, quite.
BY DR. MUELLER-THORGOW:
Q Witness, you admit, therefore, that in this point of your affidavit, you made a mistake?
A Yes.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN (For the defendant MUMMENTHEY):
Q Witness, can you remember whether in the inspection tour you mentioned this morning which you made in 1938 there were, apart from Eicke and Pohl, also representatives of the DEST?
A One representative was sure to have been present because I know that from among the inspected quarries a sample of the stones was taken along.
Q Can you remember any names, such as Salpeter or Ahrens?
A Yes, Salpeter, Ahrens--I recall those names, but not so Court No. II, Case No. 4.clearly.
Q Were those two gentlemen or one of them present on the inspection trip?
A I'm afraid I can't tell you. Somebody was there representing DEST.
Q Was the point of the trip to have the quarries of Flossenburg and Mauthausen opened up, or were they to be exploited still further?
AAll I know is that a labor camp was to be established.
Q Just a moment. All I want to know is whether the quarries were being operated then and were to be exploited further, or whether they were to be opened up.
A They were quarries which were not operated at the time.
Q I see. Was it mentioned at the time how many workers were needed for the quarries in Flossenburg and Mauthausen?
AA camp was to be established.
Q Witness, please answer my question as I put it. What I asked you was how many workers was it intended to use for those two quarries.
A I can't tell you.
Q Was it a thousand; two thousand; or a few hundred?
AA few hundred, I should say, some hundred.
Q What sort of accommodation and camps were to be established for these few hundreds of workers?
AA camp consisting of barracks for about four hundred and six hundred--six hundred for Mauthausen, I believe, and four hundred for Flossenburg.
Q A labor camp was envisaged, was it?
A Yes.
Q My last question. At that time when you went on the trip, was any reference made to the establishment of a concentration camp?
A No.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions by the defense counsel? The Prosecution may cross examine.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, you were in the Verwaltungsamt SS from 1933 to 1938? Is that right?
A I didn't hear.
Q Herr Karl, you were in the Verwaltungsamt SS from 1933 to 1938?
A Yes.
Q During what period of time were you in the Main Office Budget and Building.
A I was called back there in 1940, on 15 May 1940. I was transferred to an outside agency, Maehrish Ostrau, and then I was transferred to Norway. From Norway I went to Cracow. During that period of time in Cracow, the Main Office Budget and Building, the WVHA, arose.
Q Excuse me, just briefly, what period of time were you in Haushalt und Bauten?
A From 1940 until the WVHA was established, in February, 1942.
Q Then during what period of time did you work in the WVHA?
A From 1942 until the end--not in the Main Office, but I was in an outside agency under the Main Office.
Q. Now, you worked in the Administrative Office of the SS from 1933 up until the end of the war, with the exception of two years from 1938 to 1940?
A. Yes.
Q. During that time I take it you must have seen a good many organizational charts and tables of organizations of the administrative agencies of the SS? Is that correct?
A. No, I didn't see too many organizational charts except those of the administrative office.
Q. That's what I'm talking about, the administrative office.
A. Yes, of the administrative office.
Q. That is, you saw tables of organizations of the Verwaltungsamt?
A. Oh, yes, I saw those from 1933 until 1938.
Q. Did you tell what agency of the SS was in charge of construction for the SS?
A. For the SS? The administrative office.
Q. Was any other office in charge of any construction for the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. What other offices?
A. I know the Reich Construction Office, the Reich Construction Administration, and also the Settlement Companies.
Q. While you worked in the Office V/V, did you become familiar with the tasks which were performed by the various offices in V/V?
A. No, I didn't know anything about that, not really. All I know is that Eirenschmalz had connections with the Reich Construction Administration, that is, the agency which built the barracks for the special task units, the Verfuegungstruppe.
Q. Did you know that it was the task of V/V/a to be in charge of construction for the Death Head Units?
A. I heard that only through the two colleagues Brecht and Riedl.
Q. They told you that? Did they tell you that?
A. I knew Brecht personally and Riedl was introduced to me; and from that I gathered that Brecht and Riedl had been charged with building concentration camps.
Q. Who told you that you were to take over the task of Eirenschmalz in V/V/a?
A. Pohl.
Q. Did he tell you what your tasks would be?
A. I was to take over the sphere of tasks from T.V. and the concentration camps, and for that purpose I was to play a part in the new labor camps after 1938.
Q. You told us you were sitting next door to Eirenschmalz?
A. Yes.
Q. He was in charge of your office, organizationally? You said that, is that correct?
A. Yes. He was a Main Department chief in that sense, but he was not my superior in factual matters.
Q. Each of the agencies V/V/a, b, c, and d, you say in your affidavit, reported directly to Pohl?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that V/V/a was in charge of Eirenschmalz directly?
A. In that sense Eirenschmalz again was a department chief and directly under Pohl.
Q. He himself was in charge of V/V/a?
A. Yes. He was the department chief in his department.
Q. To the best of your knowledge was Riedl a subordinate of Eirenschmalz?
A. Yes. We were not under him in the professional or factual sense, b, c, and d, in factual and professional matters, only if a circular reached us or something like that, it would go to Eirenschmalz and he would circulate it within the department to a, b, c, and d, and the main Department.
Q. What position did Riedl hold?
A. Riedl? Riedl told me one day that he was in charge of the construction matters in Buchenwald.
Q. Is it your understanding that Riedl was under Eirenschmalz organizationally?
A. The relations between Riedl and Eirenschmalz are not too well known to me. I know that Riedl twice, three times, or perhaps four times called on Eirenschmalz. Whether Eirenschmalz ever went to Buchenwald I don't know. He traveled a lot but whether he went to Buchenwald I don't know.
Q. Will you tell us who Helmuth Kiener is, Witness, and what position he held?
A. I don't know Kiener.
Q. Do you know what position Deis held?
A. Keis? I don't know.
Q. Paul Keis.
A. Paul Keis? No. I don't know. He was in Main Department V/IV, Accommodations. He had a depot for equipment for billets, a depot for such equipment as chairs, tables, and so forth.
Q. I believe you said that you wished to make a correction in your affidavit with regard to the production of uniforms.
A. Yes, for the Allgemeine SS.
Q. This was under V/III/c. You also wish to make a correction, I take it from your testimony, about the position that Vogt held. You do not know that Vogt was chief of V/II?
A. No, not in that sense. All I know is that Moeckl in the spring of 1938 was terminated; and as far as I can recall, Vogt in some form or other was used in that office.
Q. Concerning the other facts stated in your affidavit, are they according to your best knowledge and belief true? Are they true according to your best knowledge and belief?
A. Yes, as far as I know and can recall. I cannot speak in as well informed a manner about Vogt as I can about Moeckl.
Q. I'm talking about the rest of your affidavit. You wish to make changes in those respects, you said. Are there any other changes that you want to make in your affidavit?
A. This point about production was not quite correct, under 12, V/III/b.
Q. That's been included in 636, NO-4154. Now, you have two affidavits before you, one marked 4007 and the other 4154.
A. Yes. In the case of Affidavit 4154, paragraph 12.
Q. I ask you if there are any other changes that you wish to make in your affidavit.
A. No, no. Only this bit under V/III/b, since we are not concerned with production. The production was taken care of by the Reich Quartermaster General. That department merely issued the regulations as to uniforms.
Q. The other correction concerns Vogt in V/II on the chart?
A. Yes, Paragraph 11. That is how I recall it, that Main Department Chief Moeckl was there and that later on shortly before I left Vogt did not become a Main Department Chief, but he seemed to be working on the duties of a deputy or was a least earmarked as such.
Q. Then you wish to say it was your impression that he was in charge of this office?
A. Yes, that was my impression, only as a temporary expedient. I didn't know whether Moeckl had left for good or for a time; and it was my impression that Vogt was in charge.
Q. Now, moving on to another matter. Disregarding these two points that we have just mentioned, are there any other changes that you wish to make in your two affidavits?
A. Only this point about production under paragraph 12.
Q. Yes, I understand, and I mean in addition to that.
A. No, nothing in addition to that.
Q. You stand on these two affidavits with the exception of those two points?
A. Yes, indeed.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
DR. VON STEIN (For Defendant Eirenschmalz): I have only a very few questions, if Your Honors, please.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, you were asked just now whether you would stand by your two affidavits as you gave them, with the exception of those two changes which do not concern construction matters. I would like to ask you whether all the things you told us before in your examination, whether you maintain those things, and whether, therefore, your two affidavits are supplemented by you?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. I mean by that your testimony concerning the construction tasks taken care of by Eirenschmalz concerning concentration camps because according to your affidavits it looked from the beginning as though Eirenschmalz had been busy at some period of time with those tasks, but you told us just now that you couldn't say with extra exactitude how that organizational chart was really carried out in actual practice. All the statements you gave us before on the position of Eirenschmalz are correct, even if they were not contained in your two affidavits, is that correct?
A. Yes, they are.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean, did he tell the truth to the Tribunal?
DR. VON STEIN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I assume that he would answer that yes.
DR. VON STEIN: If the Tribunal please, I only wanted to ask that because the Prosecution have asked him whether he would stand by his affidavits completely with the exception of those two changes which are not concerned with the construction services.
I wanted to make it quite clear that his statements and testimony should be taken into consideration here.
THE PRESIDENT: You want him to stand by his testimony and the Prosecution wants him to stand by his affidavits, and he says yes in both cases.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: O.K.
DR. VON STEIN: I have one further question, if your Honors please one single, tiny, small question.
Q. (By Dr. Von Stein): Witness, you told us that Reidl twice or three times came to see Eirenschmalz?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us whether this was an official call?
A. No, I can't.
Q. It might have been a social call?
A. I don't know why he called.
DR. VON STEIN: I have no further questions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just one question, even smaller than the one that you put.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. You spoke of C/V constructing the crematoria in concentration camps. Did C/V have its own construction crews, do you know, at Dachau?
A. No, they were only the organizational office, the inspectorate of the central office and the building management. The building management is the executive agency. They issue orders to firms. The firms then carry out the orders against a bill, and the bill will be submitted to the auditing department. It is also possible that the building management does not use a firm at all, that the building management simply used inmates to carry out their projects, as it were, as a building firm does.
Carpenters and stone masons are being hired.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is enough. It was only a small question to give an answer.
(Witness excused.)
GUENTHER OTTO, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DR. VON STAKELBERG (For Defendant Fanslau): If the Tribunal please, I have been informed that this witness is Witness Otto, in other words, a witness who has been recently announced as against Fanslau. I repeat once more my request and the objections which I made yesterday to the admission of any evidence about to be submitted by the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: The same objection from any other counsel?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, naturally we cannot rule on it until we see what he is going to testify. Maybe he does not know anything.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSON:
Q. State your name, please.
A. Otto, Guenther. Otto is my family name. Guenther is my Christian name.
Q. Where were you born, when?
A. On 23 January, 1920, at Gottesberg in Silesia.
Q. Where did you go to school and for how long?
A. From first of April, 1926, to the first of April, 1934, in the secondary school, and the last six months I went to Protestant school.
Q. You were of military age then when the war broke out?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And were you in the Army, in the Wehrmacht?
A. On 8 February 1940 I went into Infantry Battalion 419.
Q. And that was in the Army, not the SS?
A. Yes, it was the Wehrmacht.
Q. And where were you first stationed when you went into the Wehrmacht?
A. I was at a place near Hamburg. I lived with a farmer.
Q. But where were you first sent after you went into the Army? Where did you receive your basic training in the Army?
A. With the Infantry Reserve Battalion 469 in Lubeck.
Q. And after your training was completed, to what outfit were you attached?
A. After a brief training I went to the Supply Unit 5300.
Q. And where was your unit sent?
A. On 18 May it was sent to the Western Campaign, in 1940.
Q. And how long did you remain with this outfit?
A. Until 11 December 1940.
Q. And what happened then?
A. When I returned from a brief furlough I was informed that I had to report to Berlin to the Leibstandarte, I had been transferred there and I had to go there immediately.
Q. And you did then report to Berlin where you were a member of the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler?
A. I was given the rank and insignia of a cadette and I was given training as a chauffeur.
Q. And how long were you near Berlin?
A. From 12 December 1940 until 24 January 1941.
Q. Were you then transferred from the Leibstandarte?
A. I was transferred to the Administrative Service of the Viking Division.
Q. Where were the supply services for the Viking Division located?
A. In Dachau, in a factory.
Q. Were the combat troops of the Viking Division Germans?
A. As far as I know they were most of them Germans, but there were also Dutchmen, Norwegians and Danes.
Q. But the supply services were mostly made up of Germans?
A. Yes, they were most of them Germans. At the beginning when the administrative services were built up they were only Germans.
Q. And did you receive further training at Dachau?
A. Yes, we were given military training there at Dachau.
Q. Only military training?
A. No, we were also trained about the significance of National Socialism, about all problems connected with marriage, and all degrees of the conditions a member of the SS was allowed to marry.
Sturmbannfuehrer Tschentscher informed us about these things.
Q. Tschentscher occupied then what position in this division?
A. Tschentscher was the commanding officer of the supply services of the Viking Division.
Q. And was the unit in which you were directly under his command?
A. Yes.
Q. We are speaking now of the Defendant Tschentscher.
A. Yes.
Q. In this lawsuit. And who was the administrative officer of the Verwaltungintendant of the whole SS division?
A. Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know what the question was to which he just answered.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
MR. FULKERSON: Excuse me, your Honor. The question was who was the administrative officer of the Verwaltungintendant, of the whole SS division, the Viking Division, that was the question. Did you hear the answer?
THE PRESIDENT: The answer was Fanslau.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it was Obersturmbannfuehrer Fanslau.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, this was during the activation phase of the Viking Division, was it not?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. Was the entire division stationed in one place then, or was it scattered about?
A. The whole division was located at Dachau, around Dachau in the Munich area. Later on it was supplemented by transport and vehicles, etc.
Q. And how long did the division remain at Dachau?
A. The administrative services remained until the 30 of April 1941, whereas the combat units of the division must have left earlier.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Then the whole division was stationed near Hollberg in order to be trained for combat duties.
Q. Where is Hollberg?
A. Not very far from Stuttgart in the area of Thuebingen, Balingen, Ebingen.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Until Whitsun of 1941.
Q. Now, at the time the division left Hollberg, where did it go?
A. The Division Viking was transferred to near Breslau and was trained for combat duties.
Q. And how long was it before the division actually went into combat?
A. We left on the 12th of June roughly, the region of Breslau, I mean, and I think during the last days of June we fought in the Neighborhood of Zamesk.
Q. And where is Zamesk?
A. It is south of Lublin, toward Lemberg.
MR. FULKERSON: A question to your Honors. Am I going into too much detail in this geography? Frankly these names have baffled me when I first heard them. I didn't know where all these places are that we are now going to discuss.
THE PRESIDENT: If it is important for us to know these names -
MR. FULKERSON: I thought, if your Honors please, I would simply trace the course of the division first until he left it so that you will get the general progress and then come back and go on.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all right. We are approaching Lemberg now, I believe.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: I think he said just outside of Lemberg.
MR. FULKERSON: Yes, sir; we are in Poland.
Q. (By Mr. Fulkerson) Now, from Zamesk.
A. The supply services of the Viking Division went from Zamesk to Ravaruska, Zclezow, Bogdanowka, Tarnopol, Zhitomir, Skuira, Byelaya-Tserkow, Beguslav, Smela, Fjidarky, Lajowatka, Novo-Moskowsk. From Novo-Moskowsk we went to Dnjepropetrowsk, because we were to cross the river, and then we went back to Dnjepropetrowsk.
MR. FULKERSON: Just a moment, I believe you are going a little bit too fast for their Honors to follow. Then the last place you have mentioned was in the neighborhood of Dnjepropetrowsk. Have you heard of that, your Honors?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is spelled with a "D".