Goodbye."
Q. It takes quite a while, doesn't it, to smoke a good cigar?
THE PRESIDENT: It takes longer to smoke a bad one.
A. Our cigars were not very large during the war, unfortunately.
Q. I see. Your German cigars were very small cigars and then the visits you had with Taubert were very short visits?
A. About a quarter of an hour, perhaps. I did not look at my watch all the time.
Q. Where did you confer with Taubert?
A. Usually in his office, which at the beginning was in the front part of the castle. You could reach him there. He lived in what was known as the guard building -- the guard of the castle, I mean, not the guard of the camp. I also talked to him in his apartment, and, after he had moved, I looked him up in his new staff office.
Q. The you would frequently visit the castle at Wewelsburg?
A. Only on these occasions, when I visited the other parts of the castle, I had to have a special permission from Taubert, and I only could get that permission once. I only went through the whole on one occasion.
Q. It must have been an exceedingly large castle.
A. It was a fairly large old castle; as castle go, it was a large one.
Q. I would like to refer very briefly to the document previously discussed here, which is No.-547. You mention in that document the fact that 10 huts were to be installed at the concentration camps and these particular hits were to accommodate 900 inmates. Can you tell me whether or not these quarters were actually installed?
A. Excuse me. I didn't quite follow the translation.
Q. In your report, which is No.-547, you mentioned that huts were to be constructed in the concentration camp to house 900 inmates. Can you tell me whether these quarters were actually installed?
A. I am afraid there is something wrong on this channed. Whether they were actually installed my knowledge is confined there to the reports I received from Bartels, but I believe that they were built.
Q. When, Witness, did you begin submitting reports to Pohl on the matters concerning the Wewelsburg concentration camp?
A. In my recollection they must have started from that period of time when the concentration camp was first established. That must have been probably between the summer and fall of 1941.
Q. Then these reports were submitted monthly, were they not?
A. About these matters, I put down in my report all the things which the building management had passed on to me.
Q. When did you stop sending reports to Pohl?
A. I believe in the Spring 1943, the monthly reports were discontinued but my recollection is not entirely reliable there
Q. It might have been later then?
A. I am afraid I can't tell you.
Q. Wouldn't you say that as result of these reports which you passed oh to Pohl -
A. I haven't heard the first part.
Q. I will repeat my questions would you not say that. As a result of these reports that you passed on to Pohl you were quite well informed concerning the situation at the concentration camps?
A. No, I couldn't say that at all. I didn't even know how many inmates were there, for instance.
Q. But you had a very good idea. In this particular report you stated that accommodations for an additional 900 prisoners are to be installed. You should know then that the camp consisted of at least 1,000 inmates.
A. No, because it was entirely possible for the camp to be bigger than it actually had inmates, which I think was the case.
Q. In another section of your report, which is No.-547, at page 5 of the English of that report, you state that, and I quote, "The recon struction of the prisoners camp this can take, in the present situation, 1800 prisoners.
Only the water supply and canalization have still to be constructed." That particular exerpt shows an exact knowledge of the number of inmates there?
A. No, by no means. As far as I can remember, I got all these indications from Bartels and included it in the reports to Pohl. It say "It can receive," but it does not say, "it had received."
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1400 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1415 hours, 15 August 1947).
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has just come from a visit to the document room where the papers are kept relating to WVHA. That explains our being late. There are eight boxes of documents in that room which have been sorted out as having some relation to WVHA. They are in bound folders in books. Arrangements have been made for Defense Counsel to just play with them as long as they want, go through them, pick out anything they want out of these papers. But before they are translated or offered in evidence a representative of the Tribunal will first inspect them to see if they have a any relation to the indictment. We don't propose to have eight boxes of papers dumped into the record here in the last ten days unless they have some value. So whatever Defense Counsel finds in these papers that he considers valuable, he can make a note of it, a representative of the Tribunal will inspect it and see if it has any value as evidence, and if Defense Counsel disagrees it can be brought to the Presiding Judge for final determination.
Mr. Robbins, is some arrangement to be made to have these documents in a separate room?
MR. ROBBINS: I think that would be best, your Honor, and to have them under the supervision of the Secretary-General so that they won't get lost and scattered all over the building.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, between the Secretary-General and Defense Information Center that can be worked out, and it should be done at once because the time is short. Through Defense Information Center you can find out where these docu ments will be and at what hours they will be available for your inspection.
Now, of course, there are many tons of other documents here and in Berlin. In Berlin there is a huge building full of documents. There may be one or two that have something to do with WVHA. If so, the Prosecution hasn't found them. I think you will have to be satisfied with the eight boxes that are here, and they are large boxes (indicating).
MR. ROBBINS: I should also like to state, for whatever value it is worth, to Defense Counsel, in connection with Dr. Pribilla's point this morning in discussing the procedure and the analysis of summaries going over my desk, I can state in absolute good faith I have never withheld one document which I thought had any bearing in the case, whether it was favorable or unfavorable.
HORST KLEIN - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HIGGENS:
Q. Witness, immediately before the recess we were discussing the report which was submitted by you to Pohl, and I asked you whether or not by virtue of this report you were able to tell the number of inmates in concentration camps at Wewelsburg. Now, do you state that you were unable to know the number of inmates interned in the Wewelsburg concentration camp by virtue of these reports submitted to Pohl?
A. That is a question. As far as I am able to recall the matter now, Bartels in his monthly report would only report the figure of the inmates which actually performed work. Just how many inmates were actually there could not be concluded from that figure, because apparently the camp commander did not furnish all the inmates for work.
Q. Isn't it a fact, Witness, that you carried out negotiations with Maurer concerning allocation of inmates to the projects under you?
A. Yes. I tried to memorize this point as far as it is possible for me, and I know that I did not go to see Maurer at Oranienburg. I can't recall ever having discussed the matter with him on any other occasion.
Q. Did you ever discuss the supplying of materials to the construction projects with Kammler?
A. I have already stated that.
Q. Did you negotiate directly with Kammler?
A. I know that on one occasion by order of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl I talked to Kammler directly.
Q. And as a result building materials were made available to you?
A. As far as I can recall things were handled in such a way that Kammler told me that Wewelsburg was not a construction project of the Reich, and consequently Kammler was fundamentally not competent for allotments of construction material for the Wewelsburg, because he was only in charge of the Reich Construction Department of the Waffen-SS. However, he told me that he would try, that he would obtain some construction material for the Wewelsburg, and that he would sent it automatically to Wewelsburg or to me. I don't know just what construction material he placed at disposal at that particular moment.
Q. I see. Did you ever confer with Eirenschmalz relative to supplying of materials or anything in this connection?
A. I can't recall having done that. I consider it almost as much as impossible. I believe from what I have taken from his testimony, he had nothing to do with the raw material here.
Q. And did you ever have any relations with Kiefer?
A. Outside of his being sent to the Berghaus, which has been discussed here, I cannot recall ever having had anything else to do with him.
Q. The Defendant Frank was concerned with allocation of labor to the Berghaus Sudelfeld, was he not?
A. I assume so. However, I cannot say it with certainty. I know that inmates were employed at the Berghaus, and that these inmates were already there before the treasury of the Berghaus was taken over by the society for the rest homes. Just how Frank went about getting the inmates there, whether he made certain requests, or whether he himself intervened for that, I don't know.
Q. Do you know any other instances where Frank was concerned with labor allocation?
A. I can't recall anything at the moment.
Q. Witness, were you ever concerned with the allocation of prisoners from Weimar to work in Kranichfeld?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the circumstances of that labor allocation deal?
A. Here we dealt with criminal prisoners who were sentenced to a short time in the workhouses, and the Police President of Weimar had requested me on several occasions to employ such inmates, and this was actually carried out for a short period of time. Here we had approximately, I believe, twenty men.
Q. Was this the Weimar-Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. No, they were not concentration-camp inmates.
Q. Do you know anything about the ordering of Czech workers to Kranichfeld for the execution of jobs there in construction work?
A. Czechs were working at Kranichfeld. They were free civilian workers.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Higgins, before we get too far away from the report, NO-547, I would like to ask the witness a question about an entry on Page 195 of the English, a report of the 15th of June, 1942, Paragraph 4, which reads as follows; "Prisoner allocation during the month of the report--"
THE WITNESS: I haven't found it yet, your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Page 195 of the English.
THE PRESIDENT: Page 17 of the original.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And a report, monthly report of the division until the 31st of May, 1942, and the report is dated the 15th of June, 1942, Page 18 of the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Siebzehn.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Oh, yes.
DR. BERGOLD: I believe, your Honor, you have the additional report in your hands now, and my client does not have that particular part.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 547.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: No.-547.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. However, an addition was made for the Tribunal, it was subsequently submitted, and the Defendant doesn't, have the particular part in his hands.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do you have a copy of it?
DR. BERGOLD: I do.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Give it to him.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Paragraph 4 that you have before you now reads as follows: "Prisoner allocation During the month of --"
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't you hand it to him, Doctor?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. I did give it to him.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Judge Phillips) "during the month of the report 275 prisoners were employed at the construction office. 178 of the construction of new concentration camp. The continuation of the construction--"
A. Yes.
Q. (Continuing) "--work was hampered by the lack of guards." Now what are you talking about there; what concentration camp are your referring to?
A. If your Honor will permit me to say so, this is a report by my deputy which is not signed by me either.
Q. It comes from your office and from the Chief of Office W-VIII.
A. As far as I am able to look into the matter now, this is a report about the construction management at Wewelsburg, and about the conditions at Wewelsburg. My deputy, since I myself was not there at the time, must have compiled this report from the reports submitted by the construction management.
Q. Soy personally do not know anything about this incident?
A. No, your Honor, I didn't say that. The Prosecutor asked me whether I knew precisely just how many inmates were in the camp around that period of time. I replied to him that what I knew were the figures that became evident in the report here. They were 275 plus 178 inmates. Today I assume that around that period of time there was a larger number of inmates in the camp and these were only the inmates who were actually made available by the camp commander of the construction work.
Q. I didn't ask you anything about what you told the Prosecutor I asked you this question, do you tell the Tribunal now that you know nothing personally about this report? We can judge what the report means itself.
A. No, I didn't say that I didn't know anything about the report.
Q. What do you know about it? You say you didn't make it.
A. It is possible that later on when I returned form my leave I did read this report. I cannot say that any more precisely today.
Q. Well, on the monthly report of the 30th of November, 1942 -
A. Yes.
Q. Page 29 of the original.
A. I only have Page 20 in this book, 20 and 21. This is I/A, 1 to 6. That is all I have here.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Does he have it now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe I found it too.
(By Judge Phillips) Under No. 4, entitled "Prisoner Allocation".
A. Yes.
Q. "465 prisoners were employed for the construction office during the month of the report." Now, it appears that you signed this report yourself.
A. Yes.
Q. Well now, where were these prisoners working?
A. That again is a report which originated with the Construction Management from which I compiled my report. Where these inmates actually worked I don't know, your Honor.
Q. Do you mean that you made a report to Pohl about 465 prisoners' working place, and you didn't know where they were working?
A. They worked at Wewelsburg. That becomes evident from the report. But just on what particular construction sites they were working; That does not become evident from the report.
Q. Now, you took charge of the construction work of this castle at Wewelsburg under an order from Pohl, did you not?
A. No.
Q. Who gave you the order?
A. I did not receive any order at all so far as the Construction Management was concerned.
Q. Well, who told you to do what you did do.
A. I received my orders from Pohl.
Q. That is what I thought. And Pohl's order came from Himmler.
A. For the Construction Management the order from Himmler to Bartels and did not go by way of Pohl.
Q. Pohl did not have anything to do with transmitting of order to anybody about this construction?
A. For the work of the architect, Bartels, Pohl had nothing to do. Here the channel went from Himmler to the Office at Wewelsburg, the personal staff, the Construction Management, Standartenfuehrer Bartels. The activity of Pohl was limited to turning over the necessary funds whenever they were requested. If your Honor please, that also becomes evident from 1/A/1, and the Construction Management requested 75,000 Reichsmarks in that par ticular report.
Q. You say that the only thing that you did in regard to this construction was to obtain the title to the property, make the necessary arrangements for the funds, and requisition the money for the construction, is that correct?
A. May I repeat, I was to purchase the real estate properties; I was to furnish the wunds where as the loan with the Dresdner Bank was in the hands of Pohl, because Pohl was manager of the association of monument culture, and the bank only would deal with the business manager.
Q. About all you had to do was to say yes when I got through. You didn't have to repeat all that. Now, if that was all you had to do, why did you have to make a report to Pohl about the labor every month?
A. Your Honor, Mr. Federal Judge, Wewelsburg was a favorite of Himmler.
Q. I know that.
A. And we could count upon the fact that Himmler would talk to Pohl about Wewelsburg, Pohl, therefore, wanted to be informed about the conditions which prevailed at Wewelsburg. Furthermore, the history, the development was to be put down into history so that it would be remembered later on.
Q. Now, isn't if a fact, not only did you look after the property, the title to the property and the financing of the project, but didn't you yourself request allocation of this labor and keep up with the allocation of labor and make your reports to Pohl about it?
A. That I was ever made use of for procuring labor and negotiating about labor, I cannot recall at all.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, you admit then, that on your orders prisoners were allocated to Kranichfeld, do you not?
A. Here we had criminal prisoners whom the Chief of Police at Weimar furnished for Kranichfeld.
Q. You had denied participation in allocation of labor. Why was it that you here were concerned with this matter?
A. Up to now we were talking about concentration-camp inmates. However, here we have something quite different.
Q. In other words, you were in charge of allocation of labor just so long as it didn't concern inmate labor, is that right?
A. I have stated that the Chief of Police at Weimar sent these prisoners to Kranichfeld for work, and I gave them employment there.
Q. Then in addition to taking care of the legal matters concerned with the acquisition of the property and the financial matters you were actually concerned with labor in these various projects?
A. That was a completely different matter than the construction work, at the Wewelsburg or at the upper castle. At the time, after my agency was transferred to Kranichfeld, work had to be done for the acquisitions in this particular agency. However, this was not work which was carried out at the upper castle.
Q. You have stated also that you ordered allocation of Czech workers, did you not?
A. I have stated that at Kranichfeld free civilian Czech workers were employed.
Q. What materials or what work was carried on at Busau?
A. What was the name of that city, please?
Q. B-u-s-a-u plant. Busau.
A. Oh, Busau. At Busau we had a forest estate, and here work was carried out in the forest estate. Then a stable was constructed at Busau, and buildings were repaired. That was the customary way in agricultural plants and in a forest administration. The castle itself was not repaired, with the exception of one room, which was furnished.
Q. Would you say that the work carried out at Busau was essential work?
A. The repair of that one particular room was not necessary because it was of no importance to the war effort. The other work was just done in line with the usual work carried out at an agricultural plant.
Q. You have stated that you believed Wewelsburg concentration camp was subordinated to Buchenwald. Would you tell me how labor was obtained from the Wewelsburg concentration camp? Was it necessary to clear through Buchenwald?
A. I can't say that. I can't tell you from the knowledge which I had at the time whether these people came from Buchenwald. I believe that the labor camp at Wewelsburg, that is the predecessor of the concentration camp, that this camp was subordinated to the Inspectorate.
Q. Could you very briefly tell me what projects under your supervision employed camp inmates?
A. Construction projects under my direction did not employ any inmates. That is to say, the projects Wewelsburg and Kranichfeld, that is the repair work carried out at the upper castle at Kranichfeld, was subordinated to a construction management of the personal staff; and Wewelsburg also was under the construction management of the personal staff, because Himmler had reserved himself the right to supervise the construction and repair work carried out on these historical buildings.
Q. How about Bayrischzell?
A. I don't know whether any construction work was carried out at Bayrischzell. I believe only agricultural work was carried out.
In the fall of 1943 I happened to pass through Bayrischzell-that was when I had official contact with Bayrischzell. That was the only time.
Q. Then if the inmates were employed there they were not employed in construction projects?
A. I don't think so; I don't think that any construction was carried out at Bayrischzell.
Q. Can you tell me where the inmates who worked at Busau were taken from? What concentration camp supplied these?
A. I beg your pardon, no concentration camp inmates worked at Busau at all.
Q. Did you have any idea that inmates interned in concentration camps were inadequately fed?
A. I didn't hear anything about that.
Q. Couldn't you tell from reports which were submitted through you, or reports which you saw, that inmates were improperly fed?
A. I do not recollect any such things.
Q. I would like to direct your attention to Document No-516 which is in Book 15.
THE PRESIDENT: Excuse me just a second, Mr. Higgins.
MR. HIGGINS: Yes?
THE PRESIDENT: Is Taubert alive?
WITNESS: I can't say that with certainly, Your Honor, I haven't heard anything of him.
THE PRESIDENT: What about Bartels?
WITNESS: Bartels is alive.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know where he is?
WITNESS: I assume that he has been interned somewhere in the British Zone.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you ask for Bartels as a witness?
DR. BERGOLD (Counsel for deft. Klein): No, I didn't do it because we don't know where he is.
THE PRESIDENT: It shouldn't be difficult to find out if Bartels is alive and a prisoner. Through the Procurement Office you can find out where he is, can't we, Mr. Higgins?
MR. HIGGINS: I believe we can. I can check on it for you, if you wish me to.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you do that over the week end?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, I shall.
THE PRESIDENT: I mean, if Bartels is procurable easily it might be worth hearing him.
MR. HIGGINS: I will check into it and bring the subject up on Monday.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Weren't you able to tell from reports passing through you that concentration camp inmates were poorly fed?
A. I cannot recollect any such things from the reports.
Q. I would like to have you look at NO-516, which is in Document Book 15.
A. I don't have the book before me.
Q. I am going to submit it to you in one moment. This particular document is to be found at page 61 in the German Document Book and it is on page 53 in the English book. These letters were distributed by Baier to the heads of the various W offices, and it is stated there, that, in considering the wages to be paid to prisoners that a consideration to be taken into account in paying prisoners is the fact that the diet is deficient. In effect, it states that.
A. I have another document here. Could you please give me the document number again? I have document NO-516here on page 61. I have Document 516 here.
Q. Yes, it is Document 516, NO-516. It is Exhibit 419.
A. I can't find anything in the document book which I have here.
Q. Baier states here: "I started from the consideration that a prisoner, because of his diet and for phychological reasons, is producing less than a worker in private industry."
THE PRESIDENT: What number is your exhibit?
MR. HIGGINS: The exhibit number, Your Honor, is 419, 419.
THE PRESIDENT: That isn't the instrument your are reading.
MR. HIGGINS: It is document NO-516. It is page 53 of the English Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is a letter from Baier to Maurer dated 29 March.
MR. HIGGINS: That is right, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead. I didn't recognize what you were reading. I will as you go on.
MR. HIGGINS: I read from the first paragraph, toward the middle.
THE WITNESS: I have it.
MR. HIGGINS: I just read one sentence. That is all I intended to read. I will repeat it if you wish me to.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, do.
MR. HIGGINS: "I started from a consideration that a prisoner, because of his diet--"
THE PRESIDENT: None of that is in this exhibit; none that you are reading is in this exhibit.
MR. HIGGINS: There is a cover-letter to this series of documents, Your Honor, which is addressed to Maurer from Baier.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What page are you reading from, Mr. Higgins. That is the way to locate it in the document book.
MR. HIGGINS: Unfortunately I don't have the book here with me.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the date of the letter.
MR. HIGGINS: The date is 28 March 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: All right; the one I mentioned was the 29th. That is why I couldn't find it. It is on page 56. All right, now we have it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you read that sentence now?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, sir. "I started from the consideration that a prisoner, because of his diet and for psychological reasons, is producing less than a worker in private industry."
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Couldn't you tell from reports such as these which were coming to you continuously that inmates were improperly fed?
A. This letter is dated March, 1944. In March 1944, the camp at Wewelsburg was not in existence any more. The detachment at Kranichfeld, the detachment of inmates, was not in existence any more either. The only place where inmates were still working was at Bayrischzell, and apparently, there were some Jehovah's Witnesses who at Wewelsburg worked for the office at Wewelsburg. However, they were not working for the construction management anymore. I cannot recall this report and it is rather questionable whether it was ever submitted to me or whether it was not forwarded to Bayrischzell which was still interested in it.
So that this place at Bayrischzell would be informed about the compensation of 6O pfennigs per day. Just from what considerations Baier did this at the time, I don't know. I never discussed the matter with him because the Office W-8 was not listed as an office which employed inmates. It was not listed as an agency employing inmates, and, therefore it never participated in any discussions of that kind.
Q. This document clearly shows that Wewelsburg and other plants are employing inmates, and it sets out the rate of pay for those prisoners, does it not?
A. Baier was hardly informed about what went on in Wewelsburg. In my estimation; for example, if he talks about other construction places here, I can't possibly imagine what he referred to. Certainly, inmates were not employed at any other place.
Q. Well, passing on then. Can you tell me how far the Wewelsburg concentration camp was situated from the town?
A. From the village of Wewelsburg, the concentration camp, in my opinion, was hardly one kilometer away.
Q. How large was the town of Wewelsburg, approximately?
A. In my estimation, it had approximately 800 inhabitants. However, I have nothing to support myself in this figure.
Q. Had you ever heard of inmates being mistreated at this camp?
A. No.