A. That was the original purpose, yes.
Q. Now, what activities did you participate in the SS prior to your becoming associated with the Society for German Cultural Monuments?
A. Would you please repeat the question? I don't quite understand it.
Q What activities did you participate in in the SS prior to your becoming associated with the Society for the sponsoring and care of German cultural monuments?
A I participated in the motorized unit up to 1934 in the manner I have described before. After 1934 I, because of the damage to my health from my bike crash which lasted a long time, hadn't been on active duty until that period of time.
Q Did you carry out any activities in the NSDAP?
A No, I never held an office in the Party.
Q In the spring of 1939 a re-organization took place and your office was transferred to a Main Department, was it not?
A I think that's pitched a bit too high. At that time I had no office at all. You are speaking of the spring of 1939 and I was never given a Main Office.
Q Well, weren't you in charge of Main Department for special tasks, Economic and Administrative Office?
A That was in the spring of 1940.
Q Prior to that time you simply worked in the SS administrative branch, is that right? You had no office whatsoever prior to 1940?
A No, I had no office prior to that.
Q Then upon the reorganization your sphere of responsibilities and duties were considerably extended, were they not?
A The reorganization terminated my consultant activities with the economic enterprise, you have mentioned. My activity was thereby restricted to the Monument Society, the Extern-Stone Foundation, and the King Henry foundation (Koenig Heinrich Stiftung) and also the homes were added to my sphere of work although I couldn't start on it as there were difficulties to be cleared up between ourselves and other offices because of competency.
Q However, subsequent to that reorganization your main tasks did center about the Society for German Cultural Monuments? Did it not?
AApart from other tasks which I have described to you.
Q Would you say that the greatest amount of your activities were concerned with this particular society?
A That would be saying too much. That resulted from the respective situation and requests which would reach us.
Q Then what you wish to say is that you do not know. That is, that you do not know whether or not the greatest part of your tasks were concerned with this society? Is that what you wish to say?
A It depended on how much business we had to deal with. Sometimes I would work more for the association, then the King Henry Foundation. Much of my time simply depended on what happened.
Q How was this office first designated, as AMT W/VIII?
A May I interpolate. The foundation of AMT X/VIII only became a legal person at that time which made it necessary to do more work for it. As I remember it the Office W/VIII was designated and founded when the WVHA was founded.
Q Then that designation was not used prior to the final reorganization. I was under the impression that the designation W/VIII was used prior to the time of the reorganization, that is of the final reorganization.
A Would you please repeat the question. I am afraid I didn't receive this.
Q I stated that I was under the impression that the designation AMT W/VIII was used prior to the final reorganization, that is the reorganization of 1942.
A When I was interrogated for the first time I discussed that point very thoroughly with the Interrogating Officer. He asked me when I became an office chief. I could not recall the date because it had practical Influence on my work. At that time I remember it must have been August 1941; but the Interrogating Officer told me it could only have been the 1 February 1942. I did not remember the organizational chart too well because it was of no practical importance to me. 6269
Q When did you first become associated with the Anton Leubel enterprise?
A Leubel? This was at the same time as Nordland and Sudeten Quell Co.
Q Could you very briefly tell us what the functions of that organization were?
A Certainly. It was a company which exploited patent rights.
Q I would like to turn to a discussion of the supply of labor to the Wewelsburg Building project. Do you know whether or not all the inmate labor there was supplied by the concentration camp situated at Niederhagen, at the Wewelsburg-Niederhagen concentration camp?
A First of all that camp formed the labor camp of Wewelsburg and later on formed the concentration camp of Niederhagen until that was dissolved. That is the impression which I have formed now.
Q What would you say was the greatest number of inmates employed on the Wewelsburg construction program?
A I said that I stated in my affidavit 300, which is the figure which I remember. I know my figures only from the report of the building management; but I saw here from a report that "up to 500" had been used which is set down in detail in this report. A greater number of inmates being employed I do not recall. After my arrest I have heard that in the Niederhagen camp up to 1000 inmates were supposed to have been located.
Q Didn't you have actual knowledge of the number of inmates employed at Wewelsburg?
AAs I said, about the inmates who were employed for the project of the building management I learned from Bartels' monthly report which he sent to me, beyond that I knew nothing.
Q Well didn't you visit the construction site on quite a few occasions?
A I said on direct examination that occasionally Bartels showed me various places which he as an artist found interesting.
Q You should be able to say then in a rather general way just how many inmates were employed there if you had visited that particular construction site.
A Well the construction sites were at some distance from the camp. I mean the inmates worked at the Castle which was at a distance of about 1/2 hours walk from the camp and on those sites there might have been, as I remember it, about 20-30 men workings.
Q Where were the greatest majority of inmates employed?
A There were a number of construction sites and as I see it the inmates worked on those construction sites. If I may add something that is the reason for the requests and complaints in his monthly reports regarding shortage of guards because he wanted to have people work on as many sites as possible.
Q Well did you visit all these sites at one time or another on these trips to Wewelsburg?
A Not all of them. If they were of no artistic interest to me at all, Bartels didn't mention them to me.
Q You were only interested in those things which had an artistic value, that is your statement?
A What happened was if Bartels as an artist could show something he would show it proudly. He thought he was a great architect and perhaps he was. Therefore, he would show me those things with pride.
Q. I see Bartels was an artist also as well as a construction manager in charge of labor allocation.
A He was an architect.
Q During these trips to the construction sites you have stated, you saw the inmates at work. Could you tell me what sort of condition they were in?
A What I saw corresponded entirely to the labor allocation of a stone mason or carpenter.
Q You didn't notice that they looked undernourished?
A No.
Q Looked perfectly normal to you?
A Yes. Those were my impressions, yes.
Q Could you tell me what the average working days of these inmates were?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I cannot tell you with any certainty how many hours they worked, but I can give you many examples. As the work was not carried out behind a fence, but behind a chain of guards, the hours of work were confined to the daylight hours, which became important in winter. For the rest, nothing very much was done at Wewelsburg. Anyway, I don't think that the workers of the Wewelsburg enterprise worked longer hours than would have been usual on a construction project.
Q You went out of your way to visit these construction sites at Wewelsburg. I would like to ask you to tell me rather briefly just what the purpose of the visits was on these various occasions. Just why did you go to these Sites?
AAs I said, I did not go out of my way to do so. It was out of courtesy and respect for Bartels' personality as an artist that I went.
Q What did you talk to Bartels about when you arrived, just the artistic values of these various projects which were being worked on?
A No, as I said before, in Wewelsburg I had to conclude the contracts regarding the purchase of land, and the preliminary negotiations used to be concluded also by the building management. As a result of this, I went to visit Bartels. He explained to me what contracts had to be concluded, how the preliminary negotiations had been carried out, and once he had done that, he would now and then talk to me about his artistic ideas. It was purely a discussion which was quite inside my sphere of work.
Q And then you absolutely never discussed allocation of inmates to these sites?
A He sometimes expressed complaints that he did not have enough skilled workers. That, as far as I can recollect at this moment, was all he told me about these things.
Q Did he ever ask you to intercede for him in order to obtain more workers?
A I cannot recall any such occurrence.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q It would seem that if he were in need of workers, you would be a very good person to go to, being a member of the WVHA, which had subordinated to it this great potential of labors. It would seem likely that he would speak to you about it, wouldn't it?
A No, I don't think that would be the correct official channel at the time, because, after all, in Wewelsburg, there was always the Camp Commandant and the natural thing to do would have been for him to discuss all these questions with the Commandant.
Q Would you say that Bartels always went through the correct channels?
A I would not necessarily want to say that, but he would choose the most practical channel.
Q And you do not think it would be practical for him to talk to you about procuring labor from the concentration camps?
A No, because if the camp Commandant lives right next door to him, why should he talk to me when I happened to drop in from Berlin or later on from Thuringia.
Q I would think that a very good reason would be that the Camp Commandant appeared not to be very acceptable to Bartels and, as he was a practical man, you would be the next one he would turn to. Doesn't that sound likely?
A May I hear that again?
Q I stated that Bartels was a very practical man and therefore, if he could not procure the labor from the Commandant of the Concentration camp, he would come to you.
A He would have chosen a different channel in that event, the channel through his office, Wewelsburg, for the position was that the most influence available was the Main Office Personal Staff. That office had direct contact and access to the Reichsfuehrer. Whenever a request came from the Personal Staff, all SS agencies made meticulous efforts to meet that request.
Q Didn't you on occasion confer with Mauer concerning the allocation of labor?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I cannot recall a conference with Maurer about that.
Q I shall come to that in a very short time. Now I would like to know this, witness: On the occasions of these visits, did you submit reports to the Defendant Pohl, telling him what observations you had made during the trips?
AAs I remember it, I gave Pohl the monthly reports, and I have described the history of those monthly reports before.
Q Well, what I would like to know now is whether or not information was incorporated in those reports, which had come to your attention through your personal observations. In other words, if I might add, when you took these trips you saw certain things. I would think that you would report these matters to the Defendant Pohl, because they would be of interest to him.
A I am afraid I haven't fully understood your question.
Q I will try to put it very shortly. Isn't it true that the reports which you submitted to Pohl contained information which was obtained as a result of your personal observations of these camps, rather work sites?
THE PRESIDENT: Why don't you put it this way? "Didn't you tell Pohl what you had seen?" You see, he gets lost in your question, before you get to the end of it?
MR. HIGGINS: I will try to shorten it.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't you tell Pohl what you yourself had seen?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
Q. (By Mr. Higgins) This information was imparted through these reports? That was submitted to you?
A. Some of it, yes. I did not take everything down, but it is entirely possible that I took something down which I myself has observed, if I was given the opportunity.
Q. And you also imparted this information to him personally, did you not?
A. I did not report personally to Pohl every often. I had to be very brief and concise when I reported, because my sphere of tasks became extremely unimportant in Pohl's eyes, as the wor went on, because Pohl had the troop administration and, as such, he had very important things. I have already mentioned that Himmler was greatly interested in these things.
Q. How can you give me some idea of how frequently you did confer with Pohl?
A. Well, that is very hard for me to say today.
Q. Would you say-
A. How often I talked to Pohl and especially when I was at Wewelsburg, well, I really can't tell you, I'm afraid.
Q. You have no idea whether or not it was ten times a year or twenty times a year?
A. I can tell you how often I went to report to Pohl, but how often during those reports I spoke about Wewelsburg in particular, I can't tell you. I probably reported to Pohl about 8 - 10 times. I never made special notes or kept a diary or anything.
Q. On these visits to Wewelsburg did you confer with Obergruppenfuehrer Taubert?
A. Yes, whenever I was there I visited Obergruppenfuehrer Taubert and simple paid a brief courtesy call when he was there. After all, he was a General and Obergruppenfuehrer and, therefore, courtesy would require me to call on him.
Q. Was official business discussed during these calls?
A. I don't recall a single case of that. He usually offered me a very good cigar, because he knew that I like a cigar and once the cigar had been finished he said, "I am frightfully busy.
Goodbye."
Q. It takes quite a while, doesn't it, to smoke a good cigar?
THE PRESIDENT: It takes longer to smoke a bad one.
A. Our cigars were not very large during the war, unfortunately.
Q. I see. Your German cigars were very small cigars and then the visits you had with Taubert were very short visits?
A. About a quarter of an hour, perhaps. I did not look at my watch all the time.
Q. Where did you confer with Taubert?
A. Usually in his office, which at the beginning was in the front part of the castle. You could reach him there. He lived in what was known as the guard building -- the guard of the castle, I mean, not the guard of the camp. I also talked to him in his apartment, and, after he had moved, I looked him up in his new staff office.
Q. The you would frequently visit the castle at Wewelsburg?
A. Only on these occasions, when I visited the other parts of the castle, I had to have a special permission from Taubert, and I only could get that permission once. I only went through the whole on one occasion.
Q. It must have been an exceedingly large castle.
A. It was a fairly large old castle; as castle go, it was a large one.
Q. I would like to refer very briefly to the document previously discussed here, which is No.-547. You mention in that document the fact that 10 huts were to be installed at the concentration camps and these particular hits were to accommodate 900 inmates. Can you tell me whether or not these quarters were actually installed?
A. Excuse me. I didn't quite follow the translation.
Q. In your report, which is No.-547, you mentioned that huts were to be constructed in the concentration camp to house 900 inmates. Can you tell me whether these quarters were actually installed?
A. I am afraid there is something wrong on this channed. Whether they were actually installed my knowledge is confined there to the reports I received from Bartels, but I believe that they were built.
Q. When, Witness, did you begin submitting reports to Pohl on the matters concerning the Wewelsburg concentration camp?
A. In my recollection they must have started from that period of time when the concentration camp was first established. That must have been probably between the summer and fall of 1941.
Q. Then these reports were submitted monthly, were they not?
A. About these matters, I put down in my report all the things which the building management had passed on to me.
Q. When did you stop sending reports to Pohl?
A. I believe in the Spring 1943, the monthly reports were discontinued but my recollection is not entirely reliable there
Q. It might have been later then?
A. I am afraid I can't tell you.
Q. Wouldn't you say that as result of these reports which you passed oh to Pohl -
A. I haven't heard the first part.
Q. I will repeat my questions would you not say that. As a result of these reports that you passed on to Pohl you were quite well informed concerning the situation at the concentration camps?
A. No, I couldn't say that at all. I didn't even know how many inmates were there, for instance.
Q. But you had a very good idea. In this particular report you stated that accommodations for an additional 900 prisoners are to be installed. You should know then that the camp consisted of at least 1,000 inmates.
A. No, because it was entirely possible for the camp to be bigger than it actually had inmates, which I think was the case.
Q. In another section of your report, which is No.-547, at page 5 of the English of that report, you state that, and I quote, "The recon struction of the prisoners camp this can take, in the present situation, 1800 prisoners.
Only the water supply and canalization have still to be constructed." That particular exerpt shows an exact knowledge of the number of inmates there?
A. No, by no means. As far as I can remember, I got all these indications from Bartels and included it in the reports to Pohl. It say "It can receive," but it does not say, "it had received."
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1400 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1415 hours, 15 August 1947).
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has just come from a visit to the document room where the papers are kept relating to WVHA. That explains our being late. There are eight boxes of documents in that room which have been sorted out as having some relation to WVHA. They are in bound folders in books. Arrangements have been made for Defense Counsel to just play with them as long as they want, go through them, pick out anything they want out of these papers. But before they are translated or offered in evidence a representative of the Tribunal will first inspect them to see if they have a any relation to the indictment. We don't propose to have eight boxes of papers dumped into the record here in the last ten days unless they have some value. So whatever Defense Counsel finds in these papers that he considers valuable, he can make a note of it, a representative of the Tribunal will inspect it and see if it has any value as evidence, and if Defense Counsel disagrees it can be brought to the Presiding Judge for final determination.
Mr. Robbins, is some arrangement to be made to have these documents in a separate room?
MR. ROBBINS: I think that would be best, your Honor, and to have them under the supervision of the Secretary-General so that they won't get lost and scattered all over the building.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, between the Secretary-General and Defense Information Center that can be worked out, and it should be done at once because the time is short. Through Defense Information Center you can find out where these docu ments will be and at what hours they will be available for your inspection.
Now, of course, there are many tons of other documents here and in Berlin. In Berlin there is a huge building full of documents. There may be one or two that have something to do with WVHA. If so, the Prosecution hasn't found them. I think you will have to be satisfied with the eight boxes that are here, and they are large boxes (indicating).
MR. ROBBINS: I should also like to state, for whatever value it is worth, to Defense Counsel, in connection with Dr. Pribilla's point this morning in discussing the procedure and the analysis of summaries going over my desk, I can state in absolute good faith I have never withheld one document which I thought had any bearing in the case, whether it was favorable or unfavorable.
HORST KLEIN - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HIGGENS:
Q. Witness, immediately before the recess we were discussing the report which was submitted by you to Pohl, and I asked you whether or not by virtue of this report you were able to tell the number of inmates in concentration camps at Wewelsburg. Now, do you state that you were unable to know the number of inmates interned in the Wewelsburg concentration camp by virtue of these reports submitted to Pohl?
A. That is a question. As far as I am able to recall the matter now, Bartels in his monthly report would only report the figure of the inmates which actually performed work. Just how many inmates were actually there could not be concluded from that figure, because apparently the camp commander did not furnish all the inmates for work.
Q. Isn't it a fact, Witness, that you carried out negotiations with Maurer concerning allocation of inmates to the projects under you?
A. Yes. I tried to memorize this point as far as it is possible for me, and I know that I did not go to see Maurer at Oranienburg. I can't recall ever having discussed the matter with him on any other occasion.
Q. Did you ever discuss the supplying of materials to the construction projects with Kammler?
A. I have already stated that.
Q. Did you negotiate directly with Kammler?
A. I know that on one occasion by order of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl I talked to Kammler directly.
Q. And as a result building materials were made available to you?
A. As far as I can recall things were handled in such a way that Kammler told me that Wewelsburg was not a construction project of the Reich, and consequently Kammler was fundamentally not competent for allotments of construction material for the Wewelsburg, because he was only in charge of the Reich Construction Department of the Waffen-SS. However, he told me that he would try, that he would obtain some construction material for the Wewelsburg, and that he would sent it automatically to Wewelsburg or to me. I don't know just what construction material he placed at disposal at that particular moment.
Q. I see. Did you ever confer with Eirenschmalz relative to supplying of materials or anything in this connection?
A. I can't recall having done that. I consider it almost as much as impossible. I believe from what I have taken from his testimony, he had nothing to do with the raw material here.
Q. And did you ever have any relations with Kiefer?
A. Outside of his being sent to the Berghaus, which has been discussed here, I cannot recall ever having had anything else to do with him.
Q. The Defendant Frank was concerned with allocation of labor to the Berghaus Sudelfeld, was he not?
A. I assume so. However, I cannot say it with certainty. I know that inmates were employed at the Berghaus, and that these inmates were already there before the treasury of the Berghaus was taken over by the society for the rest homes. Just how Frank went about getting the inmates there, whether he made certain requests, or whether he himself intervened for that, I don't know.
Q. Do you know any other instances where Frank was concerned with labor allocation?
A. I can't recall anything at the moment.
Q. Witness, were you ever concerned with the allocation of prisoners from Weimar to work in Kranichfeld?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the circumstances of that labor allocation deal?
A. Here we dealt with criminal prisoners who were sentenced to a short time in the workhouses, and the Police President of Weimar had requested me on several occasions to employ such inmates, and this was actually carried out for a short period of time. Here we had approximately, I believe, twenty men.
Q. Was this the Weimar-Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. No, they were not concentration-camp inmates.
Q. Do you know anything about the ordering of Czech workers to Kranichfeld for the execution of jobs there in construction work?
A. Czechs were working at Kranichfeld. They were free civilian workers.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Higgins, before we get too far away from the report, NO-547, I would like to ask the witness a question about an entry on Page 195 of the English, a report of the 15th of June, 1942, Paragraph 4, which reads as follows; "Prisoner allocation during the month of the report--"
THE WITNESS: I haven't found it yet, your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Page 195 of the English.
THE PRESIDENT: Page 17 of the original.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And a report, monthly report of the division until the 31st of May, 1942, and the report is dated the 15th of June, 1942, Page 18 of the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Siebzehn.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Oh, yes.
DR. BERGOLD: I believe, your Honor, you have the additional report in your hands now, and my client does not have that particular part.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 547.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: No.-547.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. However, an addition was made for the Tribunal, it was subsequently submitted, and the Defendant doesn't, have the particular part in his hands.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do you have a copy of it?
DR. BERGOLD: I do.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Give it to him.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Paragraph 4 that you have before you now reads as follows: "Prisoner allocation During the month of --"
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't you hand it to him, Doctor?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. I did give it to him.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Judge Phillips) "during the month of the report 275 prisoners were employed at the construction office. 178 of the construction of new concentration camp. The continuation of the construction--"
A. Yes.
Q. (Continuing) "--work was hampered by the lack of guards." Now what are you talking about there; what concentration camp are your referring to?
A. If your Honor will permit me to say so, this is a report by my deputy which is not signed by me either.
Q. It comes from your office and from the Chief of Office W-VIII.
A. As far as I am able to look into the matter now, this is a report about the construction management at Wewelsburg, and about the conditions at Wewelsburg. My deputy, since I myself was not there at the time, must have compiled this report from the reports submitted by the construction management.
Q. Soy personally do not know anything about this incident?
A. No, your Honor, I didn't say that. The Prosecutor asked me whether I knew precisely just how many inmates were in the camp around that period of time. I replied to him that what I knew were the figures that became evident in the report here. They were 275 plus 178 inmates. Today I assume that around that period of time there was a larger number of inmates in the camp and these were only the inmates who were actually made available by the camp commander of the construction work.
Q. I didn't ask you anything about what you told the Prosecutor I asked you this question, do you tell the Tribunal now that you know nothing personally about this report? We can judge what the report means itself.
A. No, I didn't say that I didn't know anything about the report.
Q. What do you know about it? You say you didn't make it.
A. It is possible that later on when I returned form my leave I did read this report. I cannot say that any more precisely today.
Q. Well, on the monthly report of the 30th of November, 1942 -
A. Yes.
Q. Page 29 of the original.
A. I only have Page 20 in this book, 20 and 21. This is I/A, 1 to 6. That is all I have here.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Does he have it now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe I found it too.
(By Judge Phillips) Under No. 4, entitled "Prisoner Allocation".
A. Yes.