Q. "465 prisoners were employed for the construction office during the month of the report." Now, it appears that you signed this report yourself.
A. Yes.
Q. Well now, where were these prisoners working?
A. That again is a report which originated with the Construction Management from which I compiled my report. Where these inmates actually worked I don't know, your Honor.
Q. Do you mean that you made a report to Pohl about 465 prisoners' working place, and you didn't know where they were working?
A. They worked at Wewelsburg. That becomes evident from the report. But just on what particular construction sites they were working; That does not become evident from the report.
Q. Now, you took charge of the construction work of this castle at Wewelsburg under an order from Pohl, did you not?
A. No.
Q. Who gave you the order?
A. I did not receive any order at all so far as the Construction Management was concerned.
Q. Well, who told you to do what you did do.
A. I received my orders from Pohl.
Q. That is what I thought. And Pohl's order came from Himmler.
A. For the Construction Management the order from Himmler to Bartels and did not go by way of Pohl.
Q. Pohl did not have anything to do with transmitting of order to anybody about this construction?
A. For the work of the architect, Bartels, Pohl had nothing to do. Here the channel went from Himmler to the Office at Wewelsburg, the personal staff, the Construction Management, Standartenfuehrer Bartels. The activity of Pohl was limited to turning over the necessary funds whenever they were requested. If your Honor please, that also becomes evident from 1/A/1, and the Construction Management requested 75,000 Reichsmarks in that par ticular report.
Q. You say that the only thing that you did in regard to this construction was to obtain the title to the property, make the necessary arrangements for the funds, and requisition the money for the construction, is that correct?
A. May I repeat, I was to purchase the real estate properties; I was to furnish the wunds where as the loan with the Dresdner Bank was in the hands of Pohl, because Pohl was manager of the association of monument culture, and the bank only would deal with the business manager.
Q. About all you had to do was to say yes when I got through. You didn't have to repeat all that. Now, if that was all you had to do, why did you have to make a report to Pohl about the labor every month?
A. Your Honor, Mr. Federal Judge, Wewelsburg was a favorite of Himmler.
Q. I know that.
A. And we could count upon the fact that Himmler would talk to Pohl about Wewelsburg, Pohl, therefore, wanted to be informed about the conditions which prevailed at Wewelsburg. Furthermore, the history, the development was to be put down into history so that it would be remembered later on.
Q. Now, isn't if a fact, not only did you look after the property, the title to the property and the financing of the project, but didn't you yourself request allocation of this labor and keep up with the allocation of labor and make your reports to Pohl about it?
A. That I was ever made use of for procuring labor and negotiating about labor, I cannot recall at all.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Witness, you admit then, that on your orders prisoners were allocated to Kranichfeld, do you not?
A. Here we had criminal prisoners whom the Chief of Police at Weimar furnished for Kranichfeld.
Q. You had denied participation in allocation of labor. Why was it that you here were concerned with this matter?
A. Up to now we were talking about concentration-camp inmates. However, here we have something quite different.
Q. In other words, you were in charge of allocation of labor just so long as it didn't concern inmate labor, is that right?
A. I have stated that the Chief of Police at Weimar sent these prisoners to Kranichfeld for work, and I gave them employment there.
Q. Then in addition to taking care of the legal matters concerned with the acquisition of the property and the financial matters you were actually concerned with labor in these various projects?
A. That was a completely different matter than the construction work, at the Wewelsburg or at the upper castle. At the time, after my agency was transferred to Kranichfeld, work had to be done for the acquisitions in this particular agency. However, this was not work which was carried out at the upper castle.
Q. You have stated also that you ordered allocation of Czech workers, did you not?
A. I have stated that at Kranichfeld free civilian Czech workers were employed.
Q. What materials or what work was carried on at Busau?
A. What was the name of that city, please?
Q. B-u-s-a-u plant. Busau.
A. Oh, Busau. At Busau we had a forest estate, and here work was carried out in the forest estate. Then a stable was constructed at Busau, and buildings were repaired. That was the customary way in agricultural plants and in a forest administration. The castle itself was not repaired, with the exception of one room, which was furnished.
Q. Would you say that the work carried out at Busau was essential work?
A. The repair of that one particular room was not necessary because it was of no importance to the war effort. The other work was just done in line with the usual work carried out at an agricultural plant.
Q. You have stated that you believed Wewelsburg concentration camp was subordinated to Buchenwald. Would you tell me how labor was obtained from the Wewelsburg concentration camp? Was it necessary to clear through Buchenwald?
A. I can't say that. I can't tell you from the knowledge which I had at the time whether these people came from Buchenwald. I believe that the labor camp at Wewelsburg, that is the predecessor of the concentration camp, that this camp was subordinated to the Inspectorate.
Q. Could you very briefly tell me what projects under your supervision employed camp inmates?
A. Construction projects under my direction did not employ any inmates. That is to say, the projects Wewelsburg and Kranichfeld, that is the repair work carried out at the upper castle at Kranichfeld, was subordinated to a construction management of the personal staff; and Wewelsburg also was under the construction management of the personal staff, because Himmler had reserved himself the right to supervise the construction and repair work carried out on these historical buildings.
Q. How about Bayrischzell?
A. I don't know whether any construction work was carried out at Bayrischzell. I believe only agricultural work was carried out.
In the fall of 1943 I happened to pass through Bayrischzell-that was when I had official contact with Bayrischzell. That was the only time.
Q. Then if the inmates were employed there they were not employed in construction projects?
A. I don't think so; I don't think that any construction was carried out at Bayrischzell.
Q. Can you tell me where the inmates who worked at Busau were taken from? What concentration camp supplied these?
A. I beg your pardon, no concentration camp inmates worked at Busau at all.
Q. Did you have any idea that inmates interned in concentration camps were inadequately fed?
A. I didn't hear anything about that.
Q. Couldn't you tell from reports which were submitted through you, or reports which you saw, that inmates were improperly fed?
A. I do not recollect any such things.
Q. I would like to direct your attention to Document No-516 which is in Book 15.
THE PRESIDENT: Excuse me just a second, Mr. Higgins.
MR. HIGGINS: Yes?
THE PRESIDENT: Is Taubert alive?
WITNESS: I can't say that with certainly, Your Honor, I haven't heard anything of him.
THE PRESIDENT: What about Bartels?
WITNESS: Bartels is alive.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know where he is?
WITNESS: I assume that he has been interned somewhere in the British Zone.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you ask for Bartels as a witness?
DR. BERGOLD (Counsel for deft. Klein): No, I didn't do it because we don't know where he is.
THE PRESIDENT: It shouldn't be difficult to find out if Bartels is alive and a prisoner. Through the Procurement Office you can find out where he is, can't we, Mr. Higgins?
MR. HIGGINS: I believe we can. I can check on it for you, if you wish me to.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you do that over the week end?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, I shall.
THE PRESIDENT: I mean, if Bartels is procurable easily it might be worth hearing him.
MR. HIGGINS: I will check into it and bring the subject up on Monday.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Weren't you able to tell from reports passing through you that concentration camp inmates were poorly fed?
A. I cannot recollect any such things from the reports.
Q. I would like to have you look at NO-516, which is in Document Book 15.
A. I don't have the book before me.
Q. I am going to submit it to you in one moment. This particular document is to be found at page 61 in the German Document Book and it is on page 53 in the English book. These letters were distributed by Baier to the heads of the various W offices, and it is stated there, that, in considering the wages to be paid to prisoners that a consideration to be taken into account in paying prisoners is the fact that the diet is deficient. In effect, it states that.
A. I have another document here. Could you please give me the document number again? I have document NO-516here on page 61. I have Document 516 here.
Q. Yes, it is Document 516, NO-516. It is Exhibit 419.
A. I can't find anything in the document book which I have here.
Q. Baier states here: "I started from the consideration that a prisoner, because of his diet and for phychological reasons, is producing less than a worker in private industry."
THE PRESIDENT: What number is your exhibit?
MR. HIGGINS: The exhibit number, Your Honor, is 419, 419.
THE PRESIDENT: That isn't the instrument your are reading.
MR. HIGGINS: It is document NO-516. It is page 53 of the English Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is a letter from Baier to Maurer dated 29 March.
MR. HIGGINS: That is right, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead. I didn't recognize what you were reading. I will as you go on.
MR. HIGGINS: I read from the first paragraph, toward the middle.
THE WITNESS: I have it.
MR. HIGGINS: I just read one sentence. That is all I intended to read. I will repeat it if you wish me to.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, do.
MR. HIGGINS: "I started from a consideration that a prisoner, because of his diet--"
THE PRESIDENT: None of that is in this exhibit; none that you are reading is in this exhibit.
MR. HIGGINS: There is a cover-letter to this series of documents, Your Honor, which is addressed to Maurer from Baier.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What page are you reading from, Mr. Higgins. That is the way to locate it in the document book.
MR. HIGGINS: Unfortunately I don't have the book here with me.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the date of the letter.
MR. HIGGINS: The date is 28 March 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: All right; the one I mentioned was the 29th. That is why I couldn't find it. It is on page 56. All right, now we have it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you read that sentence now?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, sir. "I started from the consideration that a prisoner, because of his diet and for psychological reasons, is producing less than a worker in private industry."
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q. Couldn't you tell from reports such as these which were coming to you continuously that inmates were improperly fed?
A. This letter is dated March, 1944. In March 1944, the camp at Wewelsburg was not in existence any more. The detachment at Kranichfeld, the detachment of inmates, was not in existence any more either. The only place where inmates were still working was at Bayrischzell, and apparently, there were some Jehovah's Witnesses who at Wewelsburg worked for the office at Wewelsburg. However, they were not working for the construction management anymore. I cannot recall this report and it is rather questionable whether it was ever submitted to me or whether it was not forwarded to Bayrischzell which was still interested in it.
So that this place at Bayrischzell would be informed about the compensation of 6O pfennigs per day. Just from what considerations Baier did this at the time, I don't know. I never discussed the matter with him because the Office W-8 was not listed as an office which employed inmates. It was not listed as an agency employing inmates, and, therefore it never participated in any discussions of that kind.
Q. This document clearly shows that Wewelsburg and other plants are employing inmates, and it sets out the rate of pay for those prisoners, does it not?
A. Baier was hardly informed about what went on in Wewelsburg. In my estimation; for example, if he talks about other construction places here, I can't possibly imagine what he referred to. Certainly, inmates were not employed at any other place.
Q. Well, passing on then. Can you tell me how far the Wewelsburg concentration camp was situated from the town?
A. From the village of Wewelsburg, the concentration camp, in my opinion, was hardly one kilometer away.
Q. How large was the town of Wewelsburg, approximately?
A. In my estimation, it had approximately 800 inhabitants. However, I have nothing to support myself in this figure.
Q. Had you ever heard of inmates being mistreated at this camp?
A. No.
Q Did you know of any atrocities carried out there?
A The only thing I heard about it was the affidavit of Schwarz. Before that time I never heard anything about these things.
Q Did you spend much time actually in the town of Wewelsburg?
A No.
Q Did you know of any prisoners of war who were interned there?
A I cannot recall ever having heard anything of that sort?
Q Did you know whether nationals of foreign countries were among those interned at the Wewelsburg concentration camp?
A I can't recall anything of that sort having come to my knowledge.
Q On your inspection of the work sites, did you ever notice that foreign nationals were occupied on the projects?
A No.
Q Never see any indication that nationals were present there?
A On the occasion of my visits to construction sites I saw people who wore the customary striped clothing.
Q They had no insignia on their clothes indicating that they were natives of foreign countries?
A I did not see anything of that kind.
Q Did you have any idea of the number of deaths that occurred in that camp?
A I have heard here for the first time that a very high mortality rate is alleged to have existed there. At the time I was there, I didn't hear anything at all about the mortality rate.
Q Do you have any idea of just what labor camps or projects the inmates of Wewelsburg concentration camp were employed on, in addition to those used by your associations?
A Could you please repeat the question?
THE PRESIDENT: Were the inmates used by other agencies than yours?
WITNESS: Excuse me, please, but I did not use them; only the construction management at Wewelsburg did.
I don't think that any other agencies except the construction management at Wewelsburg used them.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q We have seen evidence that an excess of 1000 inmates were interned there, and it would seem that they should be employed somewhere.
A We have evidence here about the fact that 1000 inmates were there. In any case, we didn't see any evidence to that effect on the part of the Prosecution. In the Schwarz affidavit only 500 inmates are mentioned, and that agrees with my monthly report.
Q Well, we saw in this report which was submitted to Pohl by you that facilities were prepared for the receiving of 900 inmates, didn't we?
A It is even stated there-
THE PRESIDENT: You draw a wrong inference and then you plant it in his mouth. They said that two huts were to be constructed with a capacity of 900, and then you say to him: "Who used the thousand inmates of the construction camp? A non sequitur if I ever heard one because there were two huts to be erected which would house 900 people. Therefore, there were a thousand people in the camp.
I don't blame him for rejecting your influence.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q Can you tell me, witness, whether or not the particular huts were installed there at the concentration camp?
A Huts?
Q Did you tell me-
A I assume so; I assume so from the reports.
Q You assumed that the 9 huts were actually installed?
THE PRESIDENT: Two huts.
WITNESS: There were nine, your Honor. I am quite sure. Each to accommodate 100 prisoners.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, I am wrong.
WITNESS: If I can point out with regard to my report later on that it is stated there that the camp was able to accommodate 1800 inmates; that is what the camp administration reported at the time.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q Well, don't you believe it is quite likely that the number of inmates who were actually interned there approximated that figure?
THE PRESIDENT: What? Eighteen hundred?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, your Honor.
WITNESS: I can not say I think so, and I can not say I don't think so. In any case my testimony would not have any probative value here.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q Well, in any event then, if there were such a number of prisoners, you did not know where they were employed, other than those who were employed in your enterprises?
A I didn't know it, and if I may express the opinion which I had at the time, that apparently not all the inmates were used for work at the same time. Perhaps the camp commander had some work carried out by the inmates for his own benefit. I don't know that from my own knowledge.
Q You have no actual knowledge of it?
A I was very surprised when I heard here later that 1000 men are alleged to have been in the camp.
MR. HIGGINS: Your Honor, I am coming to another subject now.... if you care to take a recess.
THE PRESIDENT: A very good time for a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q (By Mr. Higgins) Witness, you were concerned with SS confiscation proceedings, were you not?
A SS-confiscation proceedings is a contradiction with regard to the term. Confiscation could be carried out only by the authorities concerned and competent, for instance, by authorities as laid down by law.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I don't quite catch what you mean by that, "SS Confiscation is a self-contradiction". Why couldn't it be SS-confiscation?
THE WITNESS: I am thinking it is true at this moment only as far as the Reich area was concerned. Outside, therefore, the SS was not competent to seize or confiscate anything.
Q (By Mr. Higgins) As Chief of W-VIII, did you ever have occasion to carry out such proceedings?
A I suppose you are thinking of the affair concerning the Boeddeken Estate?
Q No, the affair that I am thinking of is the Lobkowicz affair. You have had relations with the RSHA concerning the confiscation of this particular property situated in the Sudenland in order -
AAs Chief of W-VIII I was not connected with this.
Q Wasn't it your task to participate in such confiscations?
A No.
Q In what capacity did you carry out such business or orders?
A The Lobkowicz property -
Q In order to refresh your memory on this -
THE PRESIDENT: He just wants to know what you are referring to. Do you know the Lobkowicz property? Is that what it is?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: In what capacity did you carry that out?
THE WITNESS: I did not carry out the seizure of the Lobkowicz property.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q (By Mr. Higgins) You participated in it, did you not?
A Not in any seizure.
Q I would like in this instance to submit Document NO-3788to you and for reference I would like to number it 632. The second paragraph of that letter -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did you give this an identification number?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, Your Honor.
Q (By Mr. Higgins) I would like to read the second paragraph which refers to Dr. Richter of the RSHA. It states, "He protests against the accusation of sabotage which was brought against him by Sturmbannfuehrer Klein. He himself is making every possible effort to direct to the SS the property to be confiscated." This letter was written by the Defendant Hohberg to Pohl. Does that refresh your memory, Witness?
A In the paragraph before it, sit says that Dr. Richter recommends that we were all to get in touch with the competent Oberfinanzpraesident about the possible acquisition of the Biliner well. That, in other words, is the agency which would be competent to seize or confiscate something.
Q Did your office carry out the negotiations necessary for this particular confiscation?
AA confiscation or seizure of the Biliner well or its transfer to some part of the WVHA was never carried out. What conversations took place between Hohberg and Richter I do not know.
Q. Your Office, however, entered in negotiations concerning this matter, didn't it?
THE PRESIDENT: Where does it say that in the letter?
MR. HIGGINS: I am asking him, your Honor. I intend very shortly to introduce the second letter which fully indicates that fact.
THE PRESIDENT: What does this letter indicate?
MR. HIGGINS: Well, I introduced to lay something of a background for the introduction of the subject matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, alright.
WITNESS: May I point out that this letter was written on 18 of November 1940, when there was no W-VIII office at all.
MR. HIGGINS: Well, then, I am in error on that. The precursor of the WVHA. It doesn't much matter. But you did carry our negotiations calculated to execute the acquisition of this property, did you not?
A. Possibly we planned to acquire the Billiner Well, but it was not carried out.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, what is he talking about here, when he says that you protest the acquisition by sabotage -- Dr. Richter, it is, rather. What did you have to do with this matter, anyway? Just tell us what you had to do with it.
WITNESS: What I recall is that the Sudeten guell G.M.B.H. was interested in acquiring the Billiner Well. What the conference was about between Hohberg and Dr. Richter, and what Dr. Richter protested against, I do not recall.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you do about acquiring the Billiner Well? What part did you take in it?
WITNESS: I am very sorry. This matter was never carried out and, therefore, it has slipped my mind for the time being. I shall endeavor to recollect it as best I can.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When did you accuse of sabotage, and why? That seems to be the burden of the second paragraph.
WITNESS: I can't imagine. I don't know Regierungsrat Richter. This is a letter by Hohberg to Pohl. This accusation of sabotage, I don't think I negotiated or discussed anything with Regierungsrat Richter. It has completely slipped my mind.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I would maybe the next document might help.
MR. HIGGINS: I would like to submit Document No. 3787, and I would like to number it for reference, 633.
Q. (By Mr. Higgins) Witness, don't you have any recollection whatsoever of these vast negotiations which were carried out on only in reference to the Billiner Well, but also as to the whole property of Labkowicz. I would like to read this letter which is written by the witness Klein.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let's find out if he did write it. He hasn't said he wrote it yet?
Q. (By Mr. Higgins) Do you recognize this letter, witness?
A. Yes, that is my signature, yes.
Q. It is a letter addressed to Dr. Hohberg, and it states: "The transactions in the Lokowicz matter are to be carried out by this office. Since only this office is familiar with the preliminary transactions and with the property itself, I request in the interest of unified action, that your office not interfere in the transactions."
Does that refresh your recollection on this letter?
A. First of all I could like to point out the reference matter. It is addressed to Dr. Hohberg, and reference is made to action taken in the RSHA, and there is a file not for Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. Apparently these are negotiations about the acquisition of the Billiner Well, which were unsuccessful. As to details, I really don't remember them.
Q. But you did participate in the negotiations, did you not, and it was action which was taken care of by your office?
A. Excuse me -- met by my office. You are probably thinking of W-VIII. Here we are concerned with the period of time when I was the legal adviser of the Sudeten guell Company in November 1940.
Q. This shows that you were concerned with that matter, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you request Dr. Hohberg not to interfere in the transactions. Do you remember that, witness?
A. I am trying to recollect this whole incident.
THE PRESIDENT: See if I can help a little. Lobkowicz was the owner of the Billiner Well, wasn't he?
WITNESS: Yes, he was the owner.
THE PRESIDENT: And he was a Czech?
WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: In fact, he was Ambassador to England after this, wasn't he?
WITNESS: Quite possibly.
THE PRESIDENT: Another question. Did this involve anything except the taking over of this one mineral water well? Was that all there was to the Lokowicz matter?
WITNESS: I don't think that any other land belong to the Billiner well at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then the whole Labkowicz matter involved taking over one mineral will, did it? And that was never concluded, never done, you say?
WITNESS: The Billiner well was not taken over.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, what is the point of this, Mr. Higgins? Do you claim it is a confiscation of foreign property?
MR. HIGGINS: Yes, your Honor. It is the contention that these confiscation matters which were to be carried out came withing the sphere of the activity of the defendant Klein. We like to show that was one of his jobs, to participate in these confiscation proceedings which were carried out.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, is it your impression that this one was carried out?
THE PRESIDENT: He has repeatedly said that it wasn't. It was not carried out. He said that in answer to my question, and previously to yours.
BY MR. HIGGINS:
Q: Witness, speaking of another confiscation proceeding in the nature of an Aryanization action, I would like to ask you what you know concerning the Halscheiner Sugar Factory in Olmuetz. What can you tell us about that particular action?
A: Could you please repeat that -- the name of the firm?
Q: Halscheiner. And it is spelled H-a-1---
A: It was intended on one occasion to acquire that factory for the Sudetenquell, as far as I can remember, but it wasn't carried out, unless it was done later without my knowledge, but I have not heard anything about it.
Q: This was an Aryanization proceeding, was it not?
A: I don't know to whom the firm belonged before.
Q: In this instance, in order to refresh your recollection so that you will know, I would like to pass on to you Document NO-3783, and I would like to give it reference number 634. Did you have any objections, witness -
A: Just a moment, please, This document has been signed by me, but not the file note. There is a remark by Hohberg, "Settled Orally" -- initials. All we were concerned with here was my drawing Dr. Hohberg's attention to this matter. It was not carried out, as Dr. Hohberg's remark shows.
Q: Did you have any objections to such proceedings as this?
A: In what respect?
Q: This Aryanization proceeding is a measure taken against Jewish property owners, is it not?
A: Only commercial contracts were made with the owners on the basis of the directives issued by the Oberlandrat, as it says here. The executive authority in these cases was the Oberlandrat. They decided whether or not a measure of that sort should be carried out.
Q: Do you contend that in such proceedings as this Jewish property owners were given adequate remuneration for their property?
A: I am bound to assume that. But I never carried out any such matter, and, therefore, I cannot give you any information from my own knowledge.
Q: You state that this action was never completed?
A: No. That becomes clear from Hohberg's file notes on the last page. "Settled Orally."
Q: Then it is your contention that there is nothing discriminatory in Aryanization proceedings?
A: No, I couldn't say that. It was a measure decided and ordered by the Oberlandrat, and the Sudetenquell was cited here as a partner, or I reported to Hohberg, who named several firms but his proposal was unimportant for the actual procedure. The really relevant fact, therefore, was the decision by the Oberlandrat.
Q: My question, witness, was whether or not you felt that there was anything discriminatory about the Aryanization proceedings. I didn't ask who carried it out, or who participated in carrying it out. My question is, do you believe that there is anything discriminatory in such action. Can you answer that question?
A: Commercial contracts of that sort - and we heard in Germany that large properties in this manner -
Q: That is not my question. I put a very simple question to you. Can you answer it?