A.- No.
Q.- Do you have any reasons to believe that anything of that sort had happened to the owners?
A.- That they had been killed? No. I had no reason to believe that.
Q.- I am now coming to the point which deals with the employment of Jewish workers.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we can start with that fresh tomorrow morning
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 12 August 1947, 0930 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has been advised that the Defendant Sommer is ill and unable to attend this session of Court. The certificate of the prison physician is before the Court. The Defendant will be excused from attendance, and the trial will proceed in his absence.
HANS BOBERMIN - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, yesterday you talked about the Jewish workers which were employed by the Eastern German Construction Material Company. Were these Jewish workers forced to carry out this work?
A No.
Q Why were these Jewish workers employed?
A In certain areas in Poland there are only Jewish craftsmen, and the work for the repair of the various enterprises had to be carried out.
Q Please tell the Tribunal about the working conditions under which these Jewish workers had to carry out their work?
A These Jewish workers worked just like the Polish workers, or like the German workers in the plants. They were subordinate to the working laws, and they were paid just like all other workers. They lived in the ghetto or in the area which had been set aside for Jews. However, that was a matter of the police authorities. I myself did not concern myself with that matter at all. Furthermore, these ghettos did not always have a fence around them. They usually were marked by a Court No. II, Case No. 4.certain sign.
The Jewish workers would receive a certificate that they worked for a certain employer. Through this certificate they would receive a pass from the police which authorized them to leave the area where they were living and go to their places of work. They were not guarded either on their way to work or while they were actually working.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did these Jewish workers live with their families?
A I assume that; after all, they lived in the area which was designated for Jews.
Q Were their working hours limited?
A I have already stated that no special regulations were issued for that purpose, but the Jews had to work under the same conditions as all other workers.
Q Did the managers of the individual plants have any right to punish the Jewish workers?
A No, they couldn't do that to the Jews, and they couldn't do it to the Polish workers either.
Q Did you ever hear anything about maltreatment of these Jewish workers?
A No, I never heard of a single case.
Q In the cross-examination you were further asked whether you still know an inmate of Golleschau who is alive today. In this connection, I want to ask you, did you know any inmate at all? Did you know any of the inmates who were employed at Golleschau?
A If by knowing them you mean that I saw them and that I talked to them--then I can only make this applicable to the Camp Elder and the camp physician. However, I don't know the names of either one of them.
Q Did you ever give any instructions to the effect that construction material was to be sent from the Government-General to Germany proper?
A No.
Q In the cross-examination the suggestion of Pohl's was put to you. What can you say about it in general and about the correctness of the statements with regard to the recommendations for certain promotions?
A I can say that in some cases the reasons for promotions are exaggerated in order to have these promotions carried out. Just how this formulation arose in my case, I don't know. I don't know whether Court No. II, Case No. 4.this is a recommendation for promotion; I can only assume that, but actually I have never seen it.
I believe that it is not customary that a person can look at his own personnel file. I can only explain this in such a way that at the usual time when recommendations for promotion could be made, the personnel and classification expert gave the usual reasons; and since he knew that I worked in the "W" Group, he probably gave reasons according to a certain scheme and a certain form. Moreover, it was known that Himmler did not like me very much. Himmler did not know me personally, but someone denounced me to him in 1940.
At that time I was told that whenever Himmler heard my name mentioned he went blind with rage. It is perhaps possible that now my activity was emphasized with regard to the war economy in order to have this promotion carried out. However, these are only assumptions on my part because I did not play any active part in the whole thing. I can only say with regard to the facts what I have already testified to yesterday. I, myself, have never been in charge of armament plants. The plants which I managed can only be described as supply plants. My relationship to the armament industry was that of a peasant who produces food in order to feed the armament workers. In this way, he also contributes to the work of the armament industries. I have never manufactured weapons and war equipment. That also becomes evident from the special fields of my work.
Q In the cross-examination you were further told that the product of a country which is occupied can only be used for the occupied area.
To what extent did you ship the products of the plants under your direction to the Reich proper?
A I can't give you the details with certainty. In this connection I can only state the following: Of the Eastern German Construction Material Company enterprises I only know of the shipment of two trucksful of bricks. Here we had to alleviate an emergency condition as a Court No. II, Case No. 4.result of air attacks.
Otherwise, truck transports of construction material to any extent were prohibited.
Furthermore, the new German Eastern Territories themselves needed so much construction material that it would have been completely useless to export any goods of that sort to these territories.
I only leave the possibility open that from the cement plant at Golleschau cement was shipped to the Reich proper. The shipment of cement was not ordered by the plants themselves, but by the so-called cement syndicate. That was a government agency which had to see to it that the shipments of cement to the consumer would take place through the plant which was in the closest proximity.
Golleschau was on the western frontier of Eastern Upper Silesia. That is why I believe, and why I consider it possible, that from there certain shipments of cement were sent into Germany proper. However, I consider it equally possible--and I consider it actually quite probable-that from the cement works at Oppeln--that is, from the area of Germany proper--cement was also shipped to the East. It was shipped to the new Eastern German territories or to the Government General. We can say that the cement actually was shipped from Upper Silesia to the East. I furthermore believe that the value of cement shipments to Germany proper, which might have taken place, could have been only a very small fraction of the value which I brought into the Eastern Territory from Germany in the form of machines and other material.
From the report which the Prosecution submitted yesterday, and which only covers my activity in the first half year, I have already been able to read from that document that during that period of time already two and a half millions worth of material was brought there. I believe that many trains with cement would have had to run from Golleschau to the Reich in order to bring back this value alone in order to compensate for that value alone.
Q I am now coming to your activity as an SS economist in Hungary. The Prosecution has called you the "second-highest SS officer in Hungary" Court No. II, Case No. 4.in your capacity as an SS economist.
As an SS economist were you the second-highest SS officer in Hungary?
A No; neither according to my rank nor according to my position.
Q Please name several SS officers to us who had a higher SS rank and a higher position in Hungary than you had?
AA higher rank and a higher position were held by the following: The Higher SS & Police Leader, the Commander of the Waffen-SS, the Commander of the Regular Police, and the Commander of the Security Police. These four positions were held by people who held a rank of general. Furthermore, the corps commanders and the divisional commanders had higher ranks than I had. As becomes evident from the one document, I had the position of a regimental commander. However, I did not have the rank which would usually be held by a regimental commander. In addition to this, we have to consider the fact that I, as an administrative officer, never could occupy as powerful a position as a commanding officer could occupy. That, I believe, is the same condition as in all the armies in the world.
Q. Please take another look at Document Book XVIII.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, this is Document NO-2128, Exhibit 331.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) In what areas did these regulations apply for the SS Economists?
A. The areas are precisely listed at the beginning of the document. These are the areas of Central Russia, the Baltic countries, Southern Russia, the Government Generla, Norway, and Serbia. Here we are dealing with occupied territories.
Q. Did these regulations apply directly according to the decree was issued in the year 1942 and the position of economist in Hungary was only established in 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: When were you assigned to Hungary?
THE WITNESS: In April 1944, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that when you went as Wirtschafter -- April, 1944?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. If I may make a precise statement about it, in the first days of April, 1944, I was ordered to go to Hungary and on the 14th of April, 1944, I receive the order that I was to be an economist in Hungary and I was ordered to establish the appropriate agency.
DR. GAWLIK. I want to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that this would also become evident from Document NO-3986, Exhibit 628. This date is of the 15th of April 1944.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) I am now going to hand to you Document NO-4333, Exhibit 629. In what areas did this decree apply?
A. Could you please give me the document number once more?
Q. It is Document NO-4333.
A. Oh, very will, I have it before me. That does not actually become evident from this document. Since, however, it is the basis for the executive decree of the 23d of July, 1942, which was Document NO-2128, then I can conclude from this that Document 4333 covers the same territories which are listed in Document 2128.
Q. Please take a look at the heading.
A. At the heading we have the reorganization of the administrative economic agency with the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories. That includes the Government General. From this it becomes evident that this reorganization extended to the administration with the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories, including the Government General.
Q. Did your activity in Hungary -- I want to correct my-self now -Was you activity in Hungary covered to the full extent by these two decress?
A. No.
Q. And from what does this become evident?
A. In Document NO-3986.
Q. DR. GAWLIK: Exhibit 628, Your Honor.
A. (Continued) Here it states in the last sentence expressly that the executive regulations from the 18th of June, 1942, should be applied, according to their contents.
Q. According to German law what does the word, "according to its contents" mean?
A. According to its implications, it means that those parts of the orders are to go into effect which are the most practical for the agency concerned.
Q. Please take a look at Document NO-2128, Exhibit 331, and please tell the Tribunal just what regulations were applicable to you in Hungary and what regulations were not applicable you in Hungary.
A. First of all, the paragraph II, that is strictly a formal administrative matter. Then paragraph III. From paragraph IV, paragraph Ia should have been applicable. However, at that period of time, since we didn't have a budget any more, such a budget could not be compiled any more. "b" was out of the question, because the NSDAP did not exist in Hungary.
Q. In the case of "II","the Treasury and Accounting System," it will be sufficient if you only explain this to us in an outline.
A. Paragraph II, "The Treasury and Accounting System" was applicable, However, the sentence, "The accounting of the Party funds will be carried out in accordance with the directions of the Reich Party Treasury" did not apply. It is completely unimportant here in any case; As far as I can judge the whole matter, the whole paragraph about the Treasury and Accounting System went into effect. Paragraph II, "Legal Matters" was applied. That was the field of tasks which covers the field of tasks of the Administrative Claims Officer. Furthermore, all leasing and rental agreements were concluded by the economist. Point IV, "The Auditing System" this applied. However, in practice no auditing work was carried out any more at that time. Point V was applicable. That was the regulation of food supplies. However, I must say that we did not keep any food depots in Hungary because we used the so-called Honvet Depots. Paragraph VI, "The clothing Economy", was applicable. Paragraph VII, "Ray Material Economy" did not apply, because we did not have to administer any raw material in Hungary. If, for repair purposes, raw material was needed, then we had to request if from the Hungarian Economic Agencies. Article X, "The Construction System," was applicable. In practice, however, the entire construction work was limited to the construction of several air raid shelters. Afew barracks were also purchased. However, in my opinion, they were never actually constructed, Only the material was purchased. Point XI, "Concentration Camps," was not applicable, because we did not have any concentration camps in Hungary under German direction. Point XII, "Economic Enterprises," was also not applicable, because in Hungary did not have any enterprises of the SS-WVHA. Point XIII, "Personnel Matters," was applicable. Point XIV, "Court and Disciplinary Procedures," also applied.
Q. Now please take a look at Document NO-4333. It is Exhibit 629. Did the agency of the SS Economist in Hungary, did it have the five groups listed in the document, Group A,B,C,D, and W?
A. No. They only had the first three groups. I had three men who were in charge of various groups. I had a legal consultant, a court off icer, and an administrative officer.
Q. What groups were lacking?
A Groups D and W were lacking.
Q. Why was Group D lacking, which had been listed in Document Exhibit 629 in paragraph XI, and why would paragraph XI not apply with regard to the concentration camps? It has been mentioned in Document 633 and why didn't it apply to the SS Economist in Hungary?
A. As far as I know, there was no German concentration camp in the entire area of Hungary.
Q. Were any concentration camps in Hungary subordinated to you?
A. No.
Q. Where there any concentration camps in Hungary which were subordinated to Office Group D?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever visit a concentration camp in Hungary?
A. No.
Did you ever play an active part when person were committed to a Hungarian concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever take any active part in the deportation or resettlement or transfer of persons from Hungarian concentration camps to Germany proper?
A. No.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that Hungarian Jews were deported to Germany proper?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that they were sent there in order to be gassed?
A. No.
Q. What did you know about the purpose of these deportations?
A. I was told that all Hungarian Jews who were already engaged in the Hungarian Labor Service were to be used in the armament economy and that a large number was to be brought to Germany in order to work there.
Q. Who ordered these transports
A. I don't know that. I can only assume that.
Q. Did you have any thing to do with these transports in any way.
A. No.
Q. Witness, did you have the possibility of preventing these transports?
A. No.
Q. Please take another look at Document NO-4333, Exhibit 629. You told us that in your agency only Groups A, B, and C existed, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What tasks did Group A have?
A. Group A had to administer the financial system. It had to administer the funds and had to distribute the funds which came from the Wehrmacht Treasury Agency there. From these funds, the SS and Police Troop units in Hungary were paid and personal needs were taken care of.
Court No. II Case No. IV.
Q. What were the tasks of Group B?
A. Group B had the supply of the clothing system.
Q. For whom?
A. It had to take care of the SS and Police units.
Q. What were the tasks of Group C?
A. Group C had to carry out the construction which was necessary for the requirements of the troops. I have already stated before that this construction work did not reach any large dimensions. First of all, several air raid shelters had to be constructed.
Q. Did Group C in any way assist in the construction of concentration camps in Hungary?
A. No.
Q. Whenever construction was carried out within Group C, did you employ forced labor or inmates?
A. No.
Q. Did the Groups A and B also have to take care of the concentration camp guards, or the guards in labor camps?
A. No. I have already stated that no German concentration camps or forced labor camps existed in Hungary.
Q. Just what units provided the guards in the concentration and labor camps in Hungary?
A. I don't know that. I never visited such a camp, and I only heard on one occasion, and I heard it from Hungarians, that a concentration existed. Just how big this concentration camp was, where it was, and just what the facilities there were, and who guarded it, I don't know.
Q. You were asked yesterday in the course of the crossexamination about your knowledge with regard to the transports of Jews from Hungary to Germany. Please tell the Tribunal just what you understood the question of the prosecutor to mean, and what statement you gave us.
A. I only understood one question, that is to say, I only understood that the repeated questions referred to one thing. I thought they referred to the fact whether I had any knowledge of the transports of Jews from Hungary to Germany. I answered that in the affirmative. I said that as far as I knew the purpose of these transports, these Jews were to be used as workers in the armament industry of Germany. I have made that statement repeatedly.
Q. Why did you visit the city of Auschwitz?
A. There was no reason for it at all. I just passed by there, and as far as I can recall, probably made a short stop there. Perhaps the reason was that I had to fill up my car with gas. Or whether I wanted to stop there for breakfast I can't recall that any more today.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you said that you know that Jews were being sent from Hungary into Germany.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what method was used for transporting them?
A. I don't know that, your Honor.
Q. Did you ever see a shipment of Jews from Hungary?
A. No, your Honor, I have never seen that.
Q. Did any one tell you in what manner they were being shipped?
A. No, nobody told me that.
Q. You don't know that they were being shipped in crowded cattle cars?
A. No, I wasn't told that.
Q. Without any protection, or any food, or any sanitary facilities.
A. No, I never heard about that.
Q. Well, you heard about it now. You know about it now.
A. Yes, I have heard it here in the course of this trial.
Q. And did you imagine that these Jews had all volunteered to go to Germany to work in the German Armament industry?
A. No, I didn't think that. May I add briefly, that I have already stated that in Hungary there was a so-called labor service. Besides the military service there also was a labor service there, and we were told that Jews had been conscripted for labor service so that they could defend the Fatherland. Since the Hungarian army was equipped to a very large extent with German arms, they wanted to sent workers to Germany in order to make German workers available for front line duty. That is what a Hungarian officer told me in the first weeks when I came to Hungary.
Q. What do you mean by their Fatherland - Hungary or Germany?
A. Hungary.
Q. Oh, well, then the idea was that they were to be sent to Germany to work in German munitions plants so that those munitions could be used to defend Hungary?
A. Yes.
Q. Not to defend Hungary against Germany, of course.
A. No.
Q. But against Russia, probably?
A. Yes, your Honor, that was the big threat at the time, because the Russians were steadily approaching.
Q. And the Hungarian labor officials were, of course, under the domination and direction of the German army?
A. I cannot say that, your Honor; I don't know that.
Q. Oh, Mr. Bobermin, really, - you know that, don't you?
A. No, I really don't know it.
Your Honor, this labor service also existed before German troops marched into Hungary.
Q. And took it over?
A. Whether this can be called an occupation, I really don't know. We went there as allies, and I personally had a very hospitable reception when I came there, and the Hungarian army just considered me as an ally, and as a friend.
Q. That is what you thought, any way. That is the impression you got?
A. Yes; that was not only my impression, but I actually saw it, your Honor. I lived through it, and, after all, I had quite a lot of contact with the Hungarian army and with the Hungarian authorities. May I repeat a brief remark to you, which was made in my presence on one occasion, which perhaps could clarify the whole matter. On one occasion a high ministerial official in Hungary - I don't know whether it was a minister or a state secretary, and this man told me that the Hungarians were not very talented in carrying out a war economy; he personally would consider it appropriate if the Germans would exert a little stronger influence on the Hungarian authorities. Then, without any doubt, several improvements could be made. I believe that I can conclude from this that the German occupation army did not exert so much influence by giving orders as may generally be assumed.
Q. Well, this is probably not the time to go into the history of the occupation of Hungary. At any rate, when you were there in 1944 you had the impression that the Hungarians were glad that the Germans were in Hungary, and wanted them to stay?
A. Yes, In the circles with which I had contact -circles of the Hungarian army, and the Hungarian government, and also the same feeling was held by the Hungarian population with whom I came into contact.
I was treated extremely hospitabley there, and I was considered to be, and treated, just like a friend and an ally. Without any doubt some Hungarians, in individual cases, would be somewhat reserved. However, the great majority was absolutely friendly towards the Germans, and they welcomed us as allies who were to serve the purpose of defending the frontiers against the approaching Russians. I was in Hungary when the revolution of the 15th of October 1944 took place. At the time we were very uncertain if things would not develop in a similar way as they had in Bucharest. In practice, however, we saw that not only the Hungarian population was extremely friendly toward us, but that large parts of the army also came to us and they told us that they would fight together with us until they had shed their last drop of blood. I could give you a large number of instances to prove this point; however, it would take too much time. However, perhaps it is worth while mentioning that on this day, the 15th of October, when I came to my office, my own office, the ante-chamber of my office was overcrowded with Hungarian officers. They wanted to volunteer for duty in the Waffen-SS because they did not like the policy which Horthy pursued at that period of time. At night then we guarded our office because we did not know what developments would take place, we had complete quietness. Then we heard a column of marching feet approaching us, and we assumed it was a large military unit approaching us. I do not think we could call this the approach of enemy troops because they had a band which played. And some hundred meters away from us the music suddenly stopped. Then quite suddenly, the band began to play a German soldier's songs, and the next day I was told that it was known that in the vicinity German Military units were stationed, and by this German march Hungary wanted to express its sympathy for the German cause.
These were the things which I experienced personally. I know, of course, that some Hungarian officials in leading positions did not agree with this policy, and that they deserted to the Russians. And I also know that some large troop units deserted. However, a large part of the Hungarian army, and, according to what I have experienced personally, a large part of the population kept on our side. I shall never forget just how, in the end of October 1944, the first German tiger tanks rolled into Budapest in Hungary.
They were manned by SS men. They were to go on from Budapest to the South because the Russian army was approaching from there. These Tiger tanks were greeted by enormous cheers of the population. That was at a period of time when perhaps the enthusiasm in Germany was not so great any more. However, Hungarian feelings can easily be inflamed. Hungarians became easily enthusiastic; and that is how I met the Hungarians.
Even today I am firmly convinced that a large part of the Hungarian population at the time was absolutely friendly toward the Germans and that they wanted Hungary to be defended by the Hungarian army together with the German army. I can also concluded from the fact that during the time when I worked there as an administrative officer many Hungarian mayors of the cities and the big estate owners came to see me. They urgently requested of me that SS troops be stationed in their various district. I myself could not give orders to that effect. That was a matter which had to be handled by the commander of the Waffen SS because he decided in just what area the various units were stationed. However, from this I could also conclude that these Hungarian circles who approached me with these requests desired Germans to be stationed in their areas and I could conclude, since they came to me stating it, that they wanted the SS to be stationed in their areas.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I have just been handed by Mr. Simha the monitored and corrected transcript of the point in question yesterday. The transcript and the translation have been carefully checked against the sound recording; and, if it please the Tribunal, I should like to hand it up to the Bench.
THE PRESIDENT: Does this refer to the witness' testimony about the removal of the Jews?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Go ahead, please, Dr. Gawlik. Please proceed.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q.- Witness, did you hear anything about the atrocities which were committed in the concentration camp Auschwitz when you passed through the city of Auschwitz?
A.- No.
Q.- Can you give us the reasons for that?
A.- After all, I stayed there only for a very short time, and I did not establish any contact with the population there. I didn't know just to what extent the population had knowledge of these things.
Q.- The Prosecutor asked you about this in the course of the cross examination and described you as the only administrator of brickworks enterprises in the East. Were you the only manager of the brick-works in the East?
A.- I don't believe that the question can be asked in that form. I have already testified yesterday in direct examination -- and I believe that the report which was submitted afterwards has emphasized this fact and the various points -- that I considered my activity in the East to be an economic activity. It was not an activity for the SS. I was the business manager of an economic enterprise which administered brickworks on a trusteeship basis. My activity had economic aspects. It was not in line with the SS solely. This also becomes evident from the manner in which the production and the shipment of goods developed, with what agencies I had to collaborate, and just who my collaborators were.
Q.- I want to show you once more Document NO-4467, Exhibit Number 627. Have you found it?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you want to comment on this document once more?
A.- I would like to refer to the following sentence. "The appointment becomes evident from the enclosed letter from the WVHA; and the way in which the material which has been requested is to be channeled should be carried out in agreement with Obersturmfuehrer Weber from Office C/5-3. This is to be done by the local construction management."