Q. What groups were lacking?
A Groups D and W were lacking.
Q. Why was Group D lacking, which had been listed in Document Exhibit 629 in paragraph XI, and why would paragraph XI not apply with regard to the concentration camps? It has been mentioned in Document 633 and why didn't it apply to the SS Economist in Hungary?
A. As far as I know, there was no German concentration camp in the entire area of Hungary.
Q. Were any concentration camps in Hungary subordinated to you?
A. No.
Q. Where there any concentration camps in Hungary which were subordinated to Office Group D?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever visit a concentration camp in Hungary?
A. No.
Did you ever play an active part when person were committed to a Hungarian concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever take any active part in the deportation or resettlement or transfer of persons from Hungarian concentration camps to Germany proper?
A. No.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that Hungarian Jews were deported to Germany proper?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that they were sent there in order to be gassed?
A. No.
Q. What did you know about the purpose of these deportations?
A. I was told that all Hungarian Jews who were already engaged in the Hungarian Labor Service were to be used in the armament economy and that a large number was to be brought to Germany in order to work there.
Q. Who ordered these transports
A. I don't know that. I can only assume that.
Q. Did you have any thing to do with these transports in any way.
A. No.
Q. Witness, did you have the possibility of preventing these transports?
A. No.
Q. Please take another look at Document NO-4333, Exhibit 629. You told us that in your agency only Groups A, B, and C existed, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What tasks did Group A have?
A. Group A had to administer the financial system. It had to administer the funds and had to distribute the funds which came from the Wehrmacht Treasury Agency there. From these funds, the SS and Police Troop units in Hungary were paid and personal needs were taken care of.
Court No. II Case No. IV.
Q. What were the tasks of Group B?
A. Group B had the supply of the clothing system.
Q. For whom?
A. It had to take care of the SS and Police units.
Q. What were the tasks of Group C?
A. Group C had to carry out the construction which was necessary for the requirements of the troops. I have already stated before that this construction work did not reach any large dimensions. First of all, several air raid shelters had to be constructed.
Q. Did Group C in any way assist in the construction of concentration camps in Hungary?
A. No.
Q. Whenever construction was carried out within Group C, did you employ forced labor or inmates?
A. No.
Q. Did the Groups A and B also have to take care of the concentration camp guards, or the guards in labor camps?
A. No. I have already stated that no German concentration camps or forced labor camps existed in Hungary.
Q. Just what units provided the guards in the concentration and labor camps in Hungary?
A. I don't know that. I never visited such a camp, and I only heard on one occasion, and I heard it from Hungarians, that a concentration existed. Just how big this concentration camp was, where it was, and just what the facilities there were, and who guarded it, I don't know.
Q. You were asked yesterday in the course of the crossexamination about your knowledge with regard to the transports of Jews from Hungary to Germany. Please tell the Tribunal just what you understood the question of the prosecutor to mean, and what statement you gave us.
A. I only understood one question, that is to say, I only understood that the repeated questions referred to one thing. I thought they referred to the fact whether I had any knowledge of the transports of Jews from Hungary to Germany. I answered that in the affirmative. I said that as far as I knew the purpose of these transports, these Jews were to be used as workers in the armament industry of Germany. I have made that statement repeatedly.
Q. Why did you visit the city of Auschwitz?
A. There was no reason for it at all. I just passed by there, and as far as I can recall, probably made a short stop there. Perhaps the reason was that I had to fill up my car with gas. Or whether I wanted to stop there for breakfast I can't recall that any more today.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you said that you know that Jews were being sent from Hungary into Germany.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what method was used for transporting them?
A. I don't know that, your Honor.
Q. Did you ever see a shipment of Jews from Hungary?
A. No, your Honor, I have never seen that.
Q. Did any one tell you in what manner they were being shipped?
A. No, nobody told me that.
Q. You don't know that they were being shipped in crowded cattle cars?
A. No, I wasn't told that.
Q. Without any protection, or any food, or any sanitary facilities.
A. No, I never heard about that.
Q. Well, you heard about it now. You know about it now.
A. Yes, I have heard it here in the course of this trial.
Q. And did you imagine that these Jews had all volunteered to go to Germany to work in the German Armament industry?
A. No, I didn't think that. May I add briefly, that I have already stated that in Hungary there was a so-called labor service. Besides the military service there also was a labor service there, and we were told that Jews had been conscripted for labor service so that they could defend the Fatherland. Since the Hungarian army was equipped to a very large extent with German arms, they wanted to sent workers to Germany in order to make German workers available for front line duty. That is what a Hungarian officer told me in the first weeks when I came to Hungary.
Q. What do you mean by their Fatherland - Hungary or Germany?
A. Hungary.
Q. Oh, well, then the idea was that they were to be sent to Germany to work in German munitions plants so that those munitions could be used to defend Hungary?
A. Yes.
Q. Not to defend Hungary against Germany, of course.
A. No.
Q. But against Russia, probably?
A. Yes, your Honor, that was the big threat at the time, because the Russians were steadily approaching.
Q. And the Hungarian labor officials were, of course, under the domination and direction of the German army?
A. I cannot say that, your Honor; I don't know that.
Q. Oh, Mr. Bobermin, really, - you know that, don't you?
A. No, I really don't know it.
Your Honor, this labor service also existed before German troops marched into Hungary.
Q. And took it over?
A. Whether this can be called an occupation, I really don't know. We went there as allies, and I personally had a very hospitable reception when I came there, and the Hungarian army just considered me as an ally, and as a friend.
Q. That is what you thought, any way. That is the impression you got?
A. Yes; that was not only my impression, but I actually saw it, your Honor. I lived through it, and, after all, I had quite a lot of contact with the Hungarian army and with the Hungarian authorities. May I repeat a brief remark to you, which was made in my presence on one occasion, which perhaps could clarify the whole matter. On one occasion a high ministerial official in Hungary - I don't know whether it was a minister or a state secretary, and this man told me that the Hungarians were not very talented in carrying out a war economy; he personally would consider it appropriate if the Germans would exert a little stronger influence on the Hungarian authorities. Then, without any doubt, several improvements could be made. I believe that I can conclude from this that the German occupation army did not exert so much influence by giving orders as may generally be assumed.
Q. Well, this is probably not the time to go into the history of the occupation of Hungary. At any rate, when you were there in 1944 you had the impression that the Hungarians were glad that the Germans were in Hungary, and wanted them to stay?
A. Yes, In the circles with which I had contact -circles of the Hungarian army, and the Hungarian government, and also the same feeling was held by the Hungarian population with whom I came into contact.
I was treated extremely hospitabley there, and I was considered to be, and treated, just like a friend and an ally. Without any doubt some Hungarians, in individual cases, would be somewhat reserved. However, the great majority was absolutely friendly towards the Germans, and they welcomed us as allies who were to serve the purpose of defending the frontiers against the approaching Russians. I was in Hungary when the revolution of the 15th of October 1944 took place. At the time we were very uncertain if things would not develop in a similar way as they had in Bucharest. In practice, however, we saw that not only the Hungarian population was extremely friendly toward us, but that large parts of the army also came to us and they told us that they would fight together with us until they had shed their last drop of blood. I could give you a large number of instances to prove this point; however, it would take too much time. However, perhaps it is worth while mentioning that on this day, the 15th of October, when I came to my office, my own office, the ante-chamber of my office was overcrowded with Hungarian officers. They wanted to volunteer for duty in the Waffen-SS because they did not like the policy which Horthy pursued at that period of time. At night then we guarded our office because we did not know what developments would take place, we had complete quietness. Then we heard a column of marching feet approaching us, and we assumed it was a large military unit approaching us. I do not think we could call this the approach of enemy troops because they had a band which played. And some hundred meters away from us the music suddenly stopped. Then quite suddenly, the band began to play a German soldier's songs, and the next day I was told that it was known that in the vicinity German Military units were stationed, and by this German march Hungary wanted to express its sympathy for the German cause.
These were the things which I experienced personally. I know, of course, that some Hungarian officials in leading positions did not agree with this policy, and that they deserted to the Russians. And I also know that some large troop units deserted. However, a large part of the Hungarian army, and, according to what I have experienced personally, a large part of the population kept on our side. I shall never forget just how, in the end of October 1944, the first German tiger tanks rolled into Budapest in Hungary.
They were manned by SS men. They were to go on from Budapest to the South because the Russian army was approaching from there. These Tiger tanks were greeted by enormous cheers of the population. That was at a period of time when perhaps the enthusiasm in Germany was not so great any more. However, Hungarian feelings can easily be inflamed. Hungarians became easily enthusiastic; and that is how I met the Hungarians.
Even today I am firmly convinced that a large part of the Hungarian population at the time was absolutely friendly toward the Germans and that they wanted Hungary to be defended by the Hungarian army together with the German army. I can also concluded from the fact that during the time when I worked there as an administrative officer many Hungarian mayors of the cities and the big estate owners came to see me. They urgently requested of me that SS troops be stationed in their various district. I myself could not give orders to that effect. That was a matter which had to be handled by the commander of the Waffen SS because he decided in just what area the various units were stationed. However, from this I could also conclude that these Hungarian circles who approached me with these requests desired Germans to be stationed in their areas and I could conclude, since they came to me stating it, that they wanted the SS to be stationed in their areas.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I have just been handed by Mr. Simha the monitored and corrected transcript of the point in question yesterday. The transcript and the translation have been carefully checked against the sound recording; and, if it please the Tribunal, I should like to hand it up to the Bench.
THE PRESIDENT: Does this refer to the witness' testimony about the removal of the Jews?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Go ahead, please, Dr. Gawlik. Please proceed.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q.- Witness, did you hear anything about the atrocities which were committed in the concentration camp Auschwitz when you passed through the city of Auschwitz?
A.- No.
Q.- Can you give us the reasons for that?
A.- After all, I stayed there only for a very short time, and I did not establish any contact with the population there. I didn't know just to what extent the population had knowledge of these things.
Q.- The Prosecutor asked you about this in the course of the cross examination and described you as the only administrator of brickworks enterprises in the East. Were you the only manager of the brick-works in the East?
A.- I don't believe that the question can be asked in that form. I have already testified yesterday in direct examination -- and I believe that the report which was submitted afterwards has emphasized this fact and the various points -- that I considered my activity in the East to be an economic activity. It was not an activity for the SS. I was the business manager of an economic enterprise which administered brickworks on a trusteeship basis. My activity had economic aspects. It was not in line with the SS solely. This also becomes evident from the manner in which the production and the shipment of goods developed, with what agencies I had to collaborate, and just who my collaborators were.
Q.- I want to show you once more Document NO-4467, Exhibit Number 627. Have you found it?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Do you want to comment on this document once more?
A.- I would like to refer to the following sentence. "The appointment becomes evident from the enclosed letter from the WVHA; and the way in which the material which has been requested is to be channeled should be carried out in agreement with Obersturmfuehrer Weber from Office C/5-3. This is to be done by the local construction management."
This sentence is completely unclear. In any case, the following becomes evident from the sentence, that with this travel report a letter was enclosed which apparently came from the WVHA, so that the orders for construction material were issued by the WVHA. It is shown that later on the central construction management was also included. Therefore, I don't think that we can assume that my sales department -- because after all the individual sales contracts did not pass through my hands -- could see whether the material was supposed to go to the concentration camp Auschwitz; and in no case could my department know for just what purposes this material was needed.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, may I ask for the part of the transcript which the Prosecutor has just handed to you? I should like to show it to the witness and have him comment on it.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): While he is looking at that, I should like to ask a question.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):Q.- When did you say that you went to Posen?
A.- Yes.
Q.- I say, when?
A.- In October 1940.
Q.- You stayed in Posen until the end?
A.- Until April 1944.
Q.- Then you went to Hungary.
A.- Yes.
Q.- While you were in Posen, I understood you to testify that you knew nothing about large numbers of Polish workers being transported to the Reich?
A.- Yes, your Honor, I said that I did not hear that the Poles were maltreated.
Q.- I didn't say anything about "maltreated." I spoke about their being transported from Poland to the Reich.
A.- I knew that Polish workers were sent from Poland to Germany.
Q.- In what numbers did you know they were being sent?
A.- I never heard of any figure, your Honor. However, there must have been very large numbers.
Q.- From Sauckel's and Speer's reports, there were in excess of 1,200,000.
A.- I didn't know the figure; and I have already said that it must have been quite a large number. However, I can't make any statement on the figure itself.
Q.- In other words, were any of those taken away from the industries in Poland of which you were the manager?
A.- That may have happened in individual cases, your Honor. A large part of the workers worked only for certain seasons. Here the workers were dismissed in the fall; and it is quite possible that workers were then, through the employment offices, sent to Germany. Beyond that I know also of individual cases where, for example, skilled workers, locksmiths, who had worked in my workshops, were to be sent to the Reich through the negotiation of the labor offices. Now, I'm talking of only a very few exceptions. However, I refused to comply with this. I opposed this very much because I needed these workers for my own enterprises.
Q.- Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that from the industries of which you were the manager all the Jews who were working in your factories and your plants were weeded out and either sent to Auschwitz or to the Reich?
A. No, your Honor, it wasn't that way at all. The Jews whom I employed were craftsmen, they were workers. They only worked on a temporary basis. They worked there in the years 1940 and 1941. Later on the construction work was no longer carried out to this extent. They did not belong to the permanent staff of workers whom we employed.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, I am now going to hand to you the copy of the transcript. Are these the answers which you gave yesterday?
A. I read here in the first question, the last sentence: "Now do you wish us to believe that in spite of the fact around 400,000 Jews were rounded up in Hungary, put in camps, and then sent to Auschwitz to be gassed, you know nothing about it?" And I answered there: "No, I had nothing to do with it officially." I said that two times. I can't read the handwriting very well, unfortunately I can't read it. "Officially I heard nothing and I had nothing to do with it. That was an internal Hungarian matter."
MR. ROBBINS: The handwriting there says "I said that I learned about it."
A. "I said that I learned about it," Thank you.
Q. Yes, that is written in handwriting. Now, what is below that in typewriting which has been crossed out?
A. "Learned nothing about it."
Q. First of all the following was typed there "Learned nothing about it". Is that correct?
A. Yes, that was written with the typewriter and then in handwriting above that "I said that, I heard about it".
Q. Therefore, in handwriting here we have the opposite of what was first written down in typewriting?
A. Yes, that is exactly the contrary.
Q. And just what statement did you make or what do you intend to say?
A. I have repeatedly stated that we had heard that Jews from Hungary were brought to Germany.
MR. ROBBINS: If Dr. Gawlik doubts that Bobermin said what is written there in handwriting, I invite him to come up and listen to the sound recording. It is recorded there in Dr. Bobermin's own voice. "I said that I heard about it." I think that is further shown by Judge Musmanno's question, "When did you hear about it?" Bobermin said, "I heard about it when I first got to Hungary. What was originally typewritten that was stricken out, that was the English court reporter's stenographic transcript.
THE PRESIDENT: What did it say?
MR. ROBBINS: It said "Learned nothing about it". The sound track, however, shows "I said that I heard about it."
I might also say to the Tribunal that I recall that Mr. Simha translated it "I learned about that." That's the reason that Judge Musmanno followed up by saying, "When did you learn about it?" and I followed up with the same question, "When did you learn about it?"
THE PRESIDENT: Of course it is a little difficult to recognize the two statements he makes in the same answer. "I had nothing to do with it officially. I said that I heard about it." Officially I heard nothing and I had nothing to do with officially.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I don't want to claim that something else is contained therein. However, it is my duty as defense counsel to point out some unclarity because the court reporter took down something different. I don't know whether the sound track runs in English or German. If it is in German, for example, then there may have been a mistake.
MR. ROBBINS: What the court reporter took down doesn't have anything to do with what Bobermin said. That's what she understood the translator to say. I might say that I understood the court interpreter to say something different. Mr. Simha himself says he said something different and apparently Judge Musmanno understood him the way we did, otherwise wouldn't have showed up with the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, no matter what anybody understood, the original statement from Dr. Bobermin's lips is recorded. It is on the sound track and you are at liberty to listen to it just as Dr. Bobermin spoke it. If you doubt the translation make your own translation.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Do you have this document before you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What comment do you want to make in this connection witness?
A. To this question about the deportation of Hungarians to Germany I have given at least 4 to 5 answers yesterday. I believe that all the answers state uniformly that I had knowledge of the deportation of Hungarian Jews to Germany. After all I heard about it, and about the purpose of this deportation I was told that these people were to be used in German Armament Industries. I did not hear and did not bring it in connection and later on as the Prosecutor asked me repeatedly I have stated that I never heard anything about the fact that Jews were sent there in order to be gassed.
Q. And when you say that you heard about it, just to what did you refer as you are alleged to have said you heard about it?
A. I heard about the fact that Jews were transported to Germany. I have always expressed that in answer to repeated questions. I am asking myself now if the matter had been so clear at the time just why was I repeatedly asked about the question. It would have been completely useless.
Q. How many times were you asked this question altogether?
BY THE PRESIDENT: We are about to take a recess and you needn't pursue the subject any further, Dr. Gawlik. Be prepared to take up another subject after the recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. GAWLIK: May it please the Court, I have no further questions to ask this witness. I wish to read the transcript. Since the prosecution has regarded this statement by Dr. Bobermin as so important, I shall submit this transcript as Bobermin Document 1, Exhibit No. 1. I wish to prove by that it was unclear and doubts can exist as to the original form of the statement, and that in any case it should be regarded as proven, namely, what Dr. Bobermin said repeatedly about the extent of his knowledge.
THE PRESIDENT: I have in my hand, Dr. Gawlik, the German translation taken from the sound track. It has been very carefully prepared and I would like to have you see it and then have it filed with the translation which you are making Exhibit 1, the English translation; then both of them, the German and the English, will be in the record.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I can't see any purpose in marking a preliminary copy of the transcript in evidence in this case. The official transcript in both German and English will be carefully monitored against the sound track and I can't see any purpose in putting in a preliminary copy of the record. It doesn't prove that there is any unclarity about it. It proves that the English court reporter made a mistake in copying down the court interpreter's words, but I don't see that proves anything as far as the testimony of the defendant is concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, for want of a better reason, the Tribunal wants it.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: When you have finished looking at the German, Dr. Gawlik, will you give the German and the English to the Tribunal? You may keep them for your own inspection for a while if you wish.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW (For defendant Georg Loerner): If the Tribunal please, several witnesses have been interrogated about the point what the relations were between Georg Loerner and Office Group W. I have been deliberating on the point whether there is any purpose in asking this witness about the matter.
As the representative of Dr. Haensel, I was reminded of Shakespeare, of Hamlet's last words. I have forgotten them again. I have been thinking about this, if Your Honors please, "the rest is silence." That is what I would like best, but on the other hand I am not quite sure in how far the Tribunal is aware of Goerg Loerner's insignificance in the W sector, and what significance the Tribunal has attached to the witness's testimony about the subject. I would therefore appreciate it if I might put a few questions to this witness which have been asked before. I shall be very brief. I would like you, Herr Bobermin, to answer as briefly as possible.
BY DR. MUELLER-THORGOW:
Q. Did Georg Loerner as the so-called Deputy Chief of so-called Office Group W have any real significance?
A. Not as far as my field of tasks was concerned.
Q. And you were who?
A. Office Chief of W-II.
Q. W-II? I see.
A. I cannot say anything about the other offices because I was separated too far from them, but I am inclined to assume so.
Q. Who gave you, as an office chief, your immediate orders?
A. Herr Pohl.
Q. And what if Pohl should be absent?
A. I cannot recall any such case, but I certainly did not go to Herr Loerner. I would either defer the decision or I made my own decision.
Q. Do you know Pohl's order according to which the office chiefs in important matters must consult Georg Loerner and report to him?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it ever carried out?
A. No. After a very brief period of time it was rescinded.
Q. Did Georg Loerner in his capacity as the second manager of DWB actually have any responsibility and the authority to make decisions?
A. I am unable to tell you because I know next to nothing about the internal conditions in DWB. As far as those companies were concerned which were under my charge and who were later united to DWB by contracts, Loerner never made any decisions nor did I ever ask him to.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: The rest is silence.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, who was the Higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary?
A. SS-Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Police Winkelmann.
Q. And he was the highest SS official in Hungary, was he not?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say that it was the position of the SS-Wirtschafter to act as liaison between the Higher SS and Police Leader and the WVHA?
A. You can say that up to a point, yes.
Q. That is what the documents show, is it not?
A. Yes. Yes, the SS-Wirtschafter was under the directions of the WVHA.
Q. And is it your testimony that the WVHA had nothing to do either with Jewish transports or the allocation of Jewish labor in Hungary?
A. Whether the WVHA had anything to do with it I don't know. I myself, anyway, had nothing to do either officially or personally with it.
Q. You don't know whether the WVHA had anything to do with it?
A. I can only deduce that from the documents I have seen here in this trial.
Q. If the WVHA had anything to do with it, you would have known about it, would you not?
A. I wouldn't say that so off-hand. I certainly knew nothing about it at the time. I have learned it from the documents here that transports of Hungarian Jews reached concentration camps, and from that one might conclude that at that time I was not concerned with the matter.
Q. One last matter, witness. It is true in 1943 that the Klinker Cement Company had moved its headquarters or its seat from Posen to Bielitz?
A. No, that is not quite true. The main administration of the Klinker Cement was always in Posen. The Klinker Cement G.m.b.H., as far as I know, had been registered in Berlin first, and was later registered in Bielitz, but the main administration of the Klinker Cement, that is, where the main books were kept, was always Posen.
Q. Registration of the company was changed, you say, from Berlin to Bielitz?
A. As I remember it, yes. Anyway, the firm was registered in Bielitz.
Q. Did you have, or did the Klinker Cement factory have industries in Bielitz?
A Not in Bielitz itself. It had the two leased factories, the Klinker at Rodkow, Witschin, and Bielitz, which was in Upper Silesia.
Q Well, Bielitz was a Kreis, wasn't it, - an area?
A Bielitz was a Kreis town.
Q Bielitz was a town and also a Kreis, was it not?
A Yes, to the best of my knowledge Bielitz was the main town in the Kreis of Bielitz. I think the Kreis was also called Bielitz.
Q Is it your testimony that you had no industries at all in the Kreis at Bielitz?
A No, not in the area of Bielitz, the Klinker cement GmbH did not own any factories. In that area, the Eastern German Construction Material Works had its brick factory, but not Klinker Cement.
Q And is Eastern German Construction Works the only industry under you that had factories in the Bielitz Kreis?
A Yes, I know of no other firm.
Q And is it your testimony that there were no inmates sent -First let me establish this. The concentration camp at Auschwitz is located in the Kreis at Bielitz, is it not?
A Yes, at a distance of about 50 or 60 kilometers.
Q And there were no inmates used, you say, from Auschwitz in any of the Eastern Construction Works?
A No, I know of no such occurrence.
Q Well, if it had occurred would you have known about it?
A Yes, that would have been the normal course.
MR. ROBBINS: Thank you; I have no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, please, I have a very few questions. I would like to put the German text to the witness, to give him an opportunity to finish his comments.BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, a preliminary question. The question contains several questions, so to speak - doesn't it?