I just wanted to state that now for clarification.
Q. You weren't forced by any decree of the Reich to join the SS, were you, in the first place?
A. To the Waffen-SS? Yes. I was actually conscripted to that.
Q. You understood my question, didn't you?
A. Well, could you please repeat your question once more if I didn't give you the correct answer.
Q. When you first entered the Waffen-SS, you weren't forced by any decree to enter?
A. No, I was not forced by law or decree of the Reich.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions of this witness by Defense counsel or by his own counsel?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLICK: (Counsel for defendants Volk Bobermin):
Q. Witness, first of all I want to show you Document NO-4467, Exhibit 526--
THE PRESIDENT: One moment. What is the exhibit number?
DR. GAWLICK: Five-two-six. It was submitted today. NO4467. I beg your pardon, it is 626.
BY DR. GAWLICK:
Q. Just how did the sale take place, the sale of your products, and how was it carried out?
A. We must make a difference here between the Klinker Cement Company and the Eastern German construction Material Company. In the case of the Eastern German construction Material Company, the sale was within the individual companies.
Q. Were you informed about the individual sales? Did the Central Works managers do that independently or can you please explain the matter to us?
A. The sales usually were carried out independently from the Central Works managers. In practice, it is impossible that with a large number of products--for the first year alone, six hundred million bricks were sold, and later on there may have been several millions less, but the figure was still extremely high--that I should obtain knowledge of each individual sale.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
The same for Upper Silesia took place through the works at Bieletz and for the Warthegau it took place at the working center of Posen. However, it is drawn to my attention in this travel report that here the Eastern German Construction Material firms in Posen are listed where supposedly the brick was furnished for Auschwitz, and it would have been more likely if they had been ordered with the Eastern German Construction Company in Upper Silesia. Therefore, I cannot understand why the author of this letter speaks about the fact here that he has ordered construction materials for Silesia at Posen.
Q Would these sales have to be approved by any agency?
A These sales of brick had to be authorized by the brick distribution center and that was the compulsory cartel of all brick works. It was under the direction of the State and this agency was to prevent that bricks would be sold outside of the area. It was to prevent that for instance, from the Warthegau bricks would be delivered to Upper Silesia. There was no necessity to do this, because Upper Silesia had its own large brick production.
Q Before that, did you ever obtain any knowledge of this document, of this report?
A No.
Q Before that, did you ever have any knowledge about the sale of bricks to the concentration camp Auschwitz, which has been mentioned in this document?
A No, I can't recall that at all.
Q Did you know the firm Schriever & Company at Hannover, which has been mentioned in this document?
A Yes. The firm of Schriever at Hannover is known to me. It would frequently deliver machines to us.
Q What kind of machines did they furnish to you?
A They were machines for the production of bricks. I can't tell you at the moment whether Schriever and Company was only a production firm or whether it was a registered trade firm.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you ever give any orders to that firm to furnish machines for the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you have any knowledge of the fact that this firm was also furnishing machines for the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you participate in the ordering and the furnishing of the ball mill which has been mentioned in this document?
A No.
Q Before that, did you have any knowledge of the fact that this firm furnished a ball mill to the concentration camp at Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Witness, I am now going to show you the document which has been presented by the Prosecution in the cross-examination. It is a report from Eastern German Construction Material Company and I ask you in order to correct the transcript to read the production figures of the Eastern German Construction Material Company on Page 29 and also to read to us just to whom the Eastern German Construction Material Company delivered the production goods. Please take a look at the last month there, the Month of November.
A The last month?
Q Who was the main consumer of the Eastern German Construction Material Company in November?
A In November, 1940, the sales of the Eastern German Construction Material Company amounted to the following according to this report: To the German Reichsban, the Reich railways, 1,186,900; to the Reich Labor Service, 30,000; to the Army and SS together, 203,800; to the Road Construction Office, 138,500; to the Water Economic Offices, 45,800; to the other agencies, 2,407,200; to the private customers, 1,179,700. These figures show that altogether, 5,191,900 units of bricks were delivered in that month and to the Army and SS together, 203,800 bricks were sold. Therefore, this is only a very small fraction.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I think this serves best to show that I worked for the German Construction Material market.
Q On Page 7 of the report, it is stated that after the construction of the works in the Eastern German Construction Company, in order to regulate the commercial and the technical management, 7 SS officers, 10 SS non-commissioned officers, and 567 male, and 161 female employees were employed there. Can you comment about the correctness of that statement and the figures?
A I believe that this number has correctly reproduced the people of my staff at that time.
Q I take it from the report that this is only the commercial and the technical personnel and not the workers, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q The 567 male civilian employees who have been mentioned here were not members of the SS, is that correct?
A Yes. Otherwise they would have been mentioned amongst the members of the SS. To a very high percentage, they consisted of Poles.
Q It is further stated on Page 5a of this report that altogether 413 members were included there. Can you comment on that figure?
A I can't do that with certainty, because in another document which I submitted myself, and that is the draft of the letter of Pohl to Himmler of the summer of 1941, 313 brick works are mentioned. It is therefore possible that here we have a mistake in the figure, or the figure is put too high for reasons which I cannot explain.
Q On Page 6, it is further stated with regard to the difficulties which arose, it is stated here that a number of difficulties arose and the reason for them was on one hand that the orders which were issued by the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East did not regulate the border line cases and we have the reason here that the economic life was so complicated that in a legal form the actual conditions without a knowledge of the prevailing facts could not be legally devised. Are these Court No. II, Case No. 4.statements correct?
A Mr. Defense Counsel, I think that a lawyer wrote this very complicated sentence, but the conditions were actually very complicated and confused.
Q On Page 7, it is further stated, "In this time, whenever the owners did not have any financial means of support, certain compensation was granted," and it goes on to say, "Applicants whenever they requested financial support even if they did not have any chance of success, they would receive financial support according to the welfare rules, which applied in the German Reich, if they were not capable of performing work. If they were capable of working, they would be employed in the seized plants in a subordinate capacity," is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q.- Do you want to add anything on the subject?
A.- Yes. I want to say something with regard to the phrase "subordinate position." You have interpreted it in such a way that now he was working under the direction of general custodian. These people were not employed as workers.
Q.- What do you mean by the phrase "subordinate position"?
A.- Well, he had to work under the general custodian.
Q.- It is further stated on pages 9 and 10 about the condition of the enterprises. "We found these enterprises in a condition which in most cases cannot even be described. These enterprises could only be describes as being completely miserable. The experts which were brought from the Reich could only be moved after exerting particular pressure on them to again temporarily cause the miserable factories to resume the production of bricks." Is that correct and do you want to comment on that?
A.- Yes, that applied to a certain extent. There is no doubt that it is correct that a considerable number of the factories were not safe for work and operation. My work group leaders, in part, had misgivings about bringing these enterprises into operation at all. That is why in the first two years we had so many expenses in order to make these plants secure for operation again.
Q.- It is further stated on page 11 of the report "spare parts, machines, and other equipment - 2,590 Mk and 96 pfennigs were spent in the plants in which these machines were installed. For the most part do you consider this sum correct?
A.- It must be correct for that period of time. However, that is only part of the actual investments that were made.
Q.- Can you tell from the report for what period of tine this figure applies?
A.- I cannot take it from this page.
Q.- Well, look at the entire report.
A.- As far as I know it applies to the first half year.
Q.- On page 12 of the report it is stated that there were altogether a total of 14,837 male and female workers. Can you comment on that number?
A.- This figure should be correct for the first six months. The figure later on was reduced because first of all the plants were improved and labor was exchanged against capital and then later on not all of the plants were in operation any more. Furthermore, many workers were not needed any more -- that is, workers who had to carry out the repair work in the course of the first 2 years.
Q.- It is then stated on page 16 of the report under the dealing with the legal taxation matters the work was rendered more difficult by the fact that, in particular, all Polish laws remained in existence and the Russian law was valid and, in part, already laws of the Reich with additional specifications for the transition period had already been introduced, is that correct?
A.- I only know that at that time, in fact, we had two or three different constitutions of law which existed next to each other. That is what complicated the legal situation extremely and I left it to my legal experts.
Q.- And who were they?
A.- At first it was Dr. Volk.
Q.- It is stated on page 17 with regard to these taxation matters the difficulties of carrying out this work, however, became most evident in taking care of the material with regard to the ground and real estate titles because in some areas of Poland we had Russian, Polish and German laws. In some areas we did not have any land registers with regard to the ownership. I an going to leave out several sentences and I go on to say it was especially difficult to obtain the real estate registers. Who had to carry out this work?
A.- It was part of the task of the General Trustee to find out who actually owned the properties and he also had to settle the real estate registry ratter. Since the real estate registry books were not kept uniformly in Poland it was especially difficult. We had to see to it whether this had been formerly Russian, Austrian, or Prussian territory and if our real estate laws had remained in existence then, of course, the difficulties were indeed very great.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Gawlik, all you are proving is that the witness had a difficult job which we are willing to concede because it is of no importance.
DR. GAWLIK: The last two questions, your Honor, referred to the defendant Dr. Volk. I ask the two questions in this connection so I would not take up too much time of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You are examining him on behalf of the defendant Volk?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, with regard to the last two questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I guess that's all right.
DR. GAWLIK: If you don't think it necessary then please tell me but I thought it my duty to ask these questions. I am also defense counsel for the defendant Volk.
THE PRESIDENT: That's what makes it a little confusing. I understand why you asked the question now.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, we have had translated only the first IV pages of this report because it seems that the last part which is mostly statistical isn't important.
THE PRESIDENT: Are the first 17 pages important?
MR. ROBBINS: I think so. After Dr. Gawlik studies the report if he wants the last part translated, which I trust he won't, we will have that done also.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I consider the entire report very important. And if I could draw the attention of the Tribunal to the maps at the end of this report they show how large an area of activity the defendant Bo bermin extended and the high number of enterprises which are all listed in the maps on the last pages of the document.
I think that these maps have a very high probative value for the decision of the question to what extent this man's work extended, and in order to take care of such a large number of enterprises just how much time he could devot to the plant at Gelleschau which had an independent manager. I very much want to have this translated in its entirety.
MR. ROBBINS: I trust the Tribunal can look at the maps on the last part of the document and that it will not be necessary to have them photostated and reproduced.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't want all these figures, all these statistics translated, do you?
DR. GAWLIK: No, Your Honor, I only want the one map which shows just where the enterprises of the Eastern German Construction Material Co. plants were located. I only wanted to draw the attention of the Tribunal to these maps.
THE PRESIDENT: We will study them. We will look at them but they needn't be put in separate documents in English. That's all that's necessary.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q.- Witness, in the cross examination you were asked by the Prosecution whether the owners of these brick works had fled before the SS or the Einsatsgruppen. Why did these owners actually flee? Did they flee before the SS or the Einsatsgruppen?
A.- I don't know the exact reasons but it is generally known that in the case of War operations the population actually flees from the territories where the war operations are taking place and the wealthy people usually have the custom of going to the neutral countries.
Q.- Did you ever hear that the owners of these brick works had been killed?
A.- No.
Q.- Do you have any reasons to believe that anything of that sort had happened to the owners?
A.- That they had been killed? No. I had no reason to believe that.
Q.- I am now coming to the point which deals with the employment of Jewish workers.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we can start with that fresh tomorrow morning
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 12 August 1947, 0930 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has been advised that the Defendant Sommer is ill and unable to attend this session of Court. The certificate of the prison physician is before the Court. The Defendant will be excused from attendance, and the trial will proceed in his absence.
HANS BOBERMIN - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, yesterday you talked about the Jewish workers which were employed by the Eastern German Construction Material Company. Were these Jewish workers forced to carry out this work?
A No.
Q Why were these Jewish workers employed?
A In certain areas in Poland there are only Jewish craftsmen, and the work for the repair of the various enterprises had to be carried out.
Q Please tell the Tribunal about the working conditions under which these Jewish workers had to carry out their work?
A These Jewish workers worked just like the Polish workers, or like the German workers in the plants. They were subordinate to the working laws, and they were paid just like all other workers. They lived in the ghetto or in the area which had been set aside for Jews. However, that was a matter of the police authorities. I myself did not concern myself with that matter at all. Furthermore, these ghettos did not always have a fence around them. They usually were marked by a Court No. II, Case No. 4.certain sign.
The Jewish workers would receive a certificate that they worked for a certain employer. Through this certificate they would receive a pass from the police which authorized them to leave the area where they were living and go to their places of work. They were not guarded either on their way to work or while they were actually working.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did these Jewish workers live with their families?
A I assume that; after all, they lived in the area which was designated for Jews.
Q Were their working hours limited?
A I have already stated that no special regulations were issued for that purpose, but the Jews had to work under the same conditions as all other workers.
Q Did the managers of the individual plants have any right to punish the Jewish workers?
A No, they couldn't do that to the Jews, and they couldn't do it to the Polish workers either.
Q Did you ever hear anything about maltreatment of these Jewish workers?
A No, I never heard of a single case.
Q In the cross-examination you were further asked whether you still know an inmate of Golleschau who is alive today. In this connection, I want to ask you, did you know any inmate at all? Did you know any of the inmates who were employed at Golleschau?
A If by knowing them you mean that I saw them and that I talked to them--then I can only make this applicable to the Camp Elder and the camp physician. However, I don't know the names of either one of them.
Q Did you ever give any instructions to the effect that construction material was to be sent from the Government-General to Germany proper?
A No.
Q In the cross-examination the suggestion of Pohl's was put to you. What can you say about it in general and about the correctness of the statements with regard to the recommendations for certain promotions?
A I can say that in some cases the reasons for promotions are exaggerated in order to have these promotions carried out. Just how this formulation arose in my case, I don't know. I don't know whether Court No. II, Case No. 4.this is a recommendation for promotion; I can only assume that, but actually I have never seen it.
I believe that it is not customary that a person can look at his own personnel file. I can only explain this in such a way that at the usual time when recommendations for promotion could be made, the personnel and classification expert gave the usual reasons; and since he knew that I worked in the "W" Group, he probably gave reasons according to a certain scheme and a certain form. Moreover, it was known that Himmler did not like me very much. Himmler did not know me personally, but someone denounced me to him in 1940.
At that time I was told that whenever Himmler heard my name mentioned he went blind with rage. It is perhaps possible that now my activity was emphasized with regard to the war economy in order to have this promotion carried out. However, these are only assumptions on my part because I did not play any active part in the whole thing. I can only say with regard to the facts what I have already testified to yesterday. I, myself, have never been in charge of armament plants. The plants which I managed can only be described as supply plants. My relationship to the armament industry was that of a peasant who produces food in order to feed the armament workers. In this way, he also contributes to the work of the armament industries. I have never manufactured weapons and war equipment. That also becomes evident from the special fields of my work.
Q In the cross-examination you were further told that the product of a country which is occupied can only be used for the occupied area.
To what extent did you ship the products of the plants under your direction to the Reich proper?
A I can't give you the details with certainty. In this connection I can only state the following: Of the Eastern German Construction Material Company enterprises I only know of the shipment of two trucksful of bricks. Here we had to alleviate an emergency condition as a Court No. II, Case No. 4.result of air attacks.
Otherwise, truck transports of construction material to any extent were prohibited.
Furthermore, the new German Eastern Territories themselves needed so much construction material that it would have been completely useless to export any goods of that sort to these territories.
I only leave the possibility open that from the cement plant at Golleschau cement was shipped to the Reich proper. The shipment of cement was not ordered by the plants themselves, but by the so-called cement syndicate. That was a government agency which had to see to it that the shipments of cement to the consumer would take place through the plant which was in the closest proximity.
Golleschau was on the western frontier of Eastern Upper Silesia. That is why I believe, and why I consider it possible, that from there certain shipments of cement were sent into Germany proper. However, I consider it equally possible--and I consider it actually quite probable-that from the cement works at Oppeln--that is, from the area of Germany proper--cement was also shipped to the East. It was shipped to the new Eastern German territories or to the Government General. We can say that the cement actually was shipped from Upper Silesia to the East. I furthermore believe that the value of cement shipments to Germany proper, which might have taken place, could have been only a very small fraction of the value which I brought into the Eastern Territory from Germany in the form of machines and other material.
From the report which the Prosecution submitted yesterday, and which only covers my activity in the first half year, I have already been able to read from that document that during that period of time already two and a half millions worth of material was brought there. I believe that many trains with cement would have had to run from Golleschau to the Reich in order to bring back this value alone in order to compensate for that value alone.
Q I am now coming to your activity as an SS economist in Hungary. The Prosecution has called you the "second-highest SS officer in Hungary" Court No. II, Case No. 4.in your capacity as an SS economist.
As an SS economist were you the second-highest SS officer in Hungary?
A No; neither according to my rank nor according to my position.
Q Please name several SS officers to us who had a higher SS rank and a higher position in Hungary than you had?
AA higher rank and a higher position were held by the following: The Higher SS & Police Leader, the Commander of the Waffen-SS, the Commander of the Regular Police, and the Commander of the Security Police. These four positions were held by people who held a rank of general. Furthermore, the corps commanders and the divisional commanders had higher ranks than I had. As becomes evident from the one document, I had the position of a regimental commander. However, I did not have the rank which would usually be held by a regimental commander. In addition to this, we have to consider the fact that I, as an administrative officer, never could occupy as powerful a position as a commanding officer could occupy. That, I believe, is the same condition as in all the armies in the world.
Q. Please take another look at Document Book XVIII.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, this is Document NO-2128, Exhibit 331.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) In what areas did these regulations apply for the SS Economists?
A. The areas are precisely listed at the beginning of the document. These are the areas of Central Russia, the Baltic countries, Southern Russia, the Government Generla, Norway, and Serbia. Here we are dealing with occupied territories.
Q. Did these regulations apply directly according to the decree was issued in the year 1942 and the position of economist in Hungary was only established in 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: When were you assigned to Hungary?
THE WITNESS: In April 1944, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that when you went as Wirtschafter -- April, 1944?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. If I may make a precise statement about it, in the first days of April, 1944, I was ordered to go to Hungary and on the 14th of April, 1944, I receive the order that I was to be an economist in Hungary and I was ordered to establish the appropriate agency.
DR. GAWLIK. I want to draw the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that this would also become evident from Document NO-3986, Exhibit 628. This date is of the 15th of April 1944.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) I am now going to hand to you Document NO-4333, Exhibit 629. In what areas did this decree apply?
A. Could you please give me the document number once more?
Q. It is Document NO-4333.
A. Oh, very will, I have it before me. That does not actually become evident from this document. Since, however, it is the basis for the executive decree of the 23d of July, 1942, which was Document NO-2128, then I can conclude from this that Document 4333 covers the same territories which are listed in Document 2128.
Q. Please take a look at the heading.
A. At the heading we have the reorganization of the administrative economic agency with the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories. That includes the Government General. From this it becomes evident that this reorganization extended to the administration with the Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories, including the Government General.
Q. Did your activity in Hungary -- I want to correct my-self now -Was you activity in Hungary covered to the full extent by these two decress?
A. No.
Q. And from what does this become evident?
A. In Document NO-3986.
Q. DR. GAWLIK: Exhibit 628, Your Honor.
A. (Continued) Here it states in the last sentence expressly that the executive regulations from the 18th of June, 1942, should be applied, according to their contents.
Q. According to German law what does the word, "according to its contents" mean?
A. According to its implications, it means that those parts of the orders are to go into effect which are the most practical for the agency concerned.
Q. Please take a look at Document NO-2128, Exhibit 331, and please tell the Tribunal just what regulations were applicable to you in Hungary and what regulations were not applicable you in Hungary.
A. First of all, the paragraph II, that is strictly a formal administrative matter. Then paragraph III. From paragraph IV, paragraph Ia should have been applicable. However, at that period of time, since we didn't have a budget any more, such a budget could not be compiled any more. "b" was out of the question, because the NSDAP did not exist in Hungary.
Q. In the case of "II","the Treasury and Accounting System," it will be sufficient if you only explain this to us in an outline.
A. Paragraph II, "The Treasury and Accounting System" was applicable, However, the sentence, "The accounting of the Party funds will be carried out in accordance with the directions of the Reich Party Treasury" did not apply. It is completely unimportant here in any case; As far as I can judge the whole matter, the whole paragraph about the Treasury and Accounting System went into effect. Paragraph II, "Legal Matters" was applied. That was the field of tasks which covers the field of tasks of the Administrative Claims Officer. Furthermore, all leasing and rental agreements were concluded by the economist. Point IV, "The Auditing System" this applied. However, in practice no auditing work was carried out any more at that time. Point V was applicable. That was the regulation of food supplies. However, I must say that we did not keep any food depots in Hungary because we used the so-called Honvet Depots. Paragraph VI, "The clothing Economy", was applicable. Paragraph VII, "Ray Material Economy" did not apply, because we did not have to administer any raw material in Hungary. If, for repair purposes, raw material was needed, then we had to request if from the Hungarian Economic Agencies. Article X, "The Construction System," was applicable. In practice, however, the entire construction work was limited to the construction of several air raid shelters. Afew barracks were also purchased. However, in my opinion, they were never actually constructed, Only the material was purchased. Point XI, "Concentration Camps," was not applicable, because we did not have any concentration camps in Hungary under German direction. Point XII, "Economic Enterprises," was also not applicable, because in Hungary did not have any enterprises of the SS-WVHA. Point XIII, "Personnel Matters," was applicable. Point XIV, "Court and Disciplinary Procedures," also applied.
Q. Now please take a look at Document NO-4333. It is Exhibit 629. Did the agency of the SS Economist in Hungary, did it have the five groups listed in the document, Group A,B,C,D, and W?
A. No. They only had the first three groups. I had three men who were in charge of various groups. I had a legal consultant, a court off icer, and an administrative officer.