JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is what it says in the order itself.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) You received your appointment by Pohl, didn't you, directly from Pohl?
A. Yes, yes. Quite so. I think so.
Q. Now, Himmler ordered that it would be part of the task of the Economic Wirtschafter to deal with concentration camp matters in his area, did he not?
A. Yes, indeed, that is what is stated in this document.
Q. And Pohl's order which effectuates the basic order, paragraph 11 of Document NO-2128, tells the Economic Administrator what to do about concentration camps, is that right.
A. Yes, quite so.
Q. And you are familiar with Pohl's regulations of the 23rd of July, 1942, are you not?
A. Let's see. Yes, indeed. They were sent to me at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Give us that exhibit number.
MR. ROBBINS: That is Exhibit 331.
Q. And Pohl orders that the Economic Administrator, the SS Wirtschafter, is competent for all concentration camp matters, including escapes, executions, etc., that he is competent for labor matters in his occupied territory. Now you wish us to believe that in spite of the fact around 400,000 Jews were rounded up in Hungary, put in camps, and then sent to Auschwitz to be gassed, you knew nothing about it?
A. No. I had nothing to do with it officially. I said that I heard about it. Officially I had nothing to do with it. That was an internal Hungarian matter.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When did he hear about it?
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. When did you hear about it?
A. I believe soon after I was in Hungary. I came to Hungary in the first few days of April, April or May, I can't tell you for certain.
Q. Sommer makes the statement under oath in an affidavit which is NO-2739, was referred to in the cross-examination of Sommer, that in May or June 1944 Maurer notified him of the anticipated arrival of 150,000 to 200,000 Jews from Hungary and he learned that they were to be gassed in Auschwitz. Is that about the number you heard about? You heard about 200,000 Jews?
A. I never did hear any figures at all.
Q. How many did you hear about, 1,000, 2,000, or 3,000?
A. I told you before that I didn't hear any figures.
Q. And it is your testimony to this Court that none of this matter had anything to do with you even though you were the second highest SS man in the territory.
A. Yes, indeed. I shall stick to that testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. GAULIK: Your Honor, the question was put to the witness that Sommer had testified here that no had found out that 150,000 - 200,000 Jews had been brought to Germany from Hungary in order to be gassed. I have just learned that Sommer has never made a statement of that kind. I therefore request that the question and the answer be stricken from the record, and that the witness should be shown the record of what Sommer actually testified to.
MR. ROBBINS: In that case, may it please the Tribunal, I will mark Sommer's affidavit, NO-2739, as Prosecution Exhibit 629 -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: No, 630.
MR. ROBBINS: 630; and offer it at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: No, if you are going to use it as a basis for examining the witness it will have to be in evidence. Why can't it be offered now?
DR. GAWLIK.: Your Honor, may I request that this affidavit could be shown to the witness, if he had to answer at all on the basis of this affidavit?
THE PRESIDENT: This affidavit hasn't been presented before?
MR. ROBBINS: I am sorry to say I am not certain what happened during the cross-examination of Sommer, I wasn't in here. I asked the attorney to put it in evidence, but I think it was not. I believe it was shown to him. At any rate, I will show this to the defendant Bobermin.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document number?
MR. ROBBINS: It is 2739. I am pretty certain it wasn't -- I am certain it wasn't marked for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: Alright. Show it to the Witness.
WITNESS: I read this point in the affidavit. Do you want me to comment on it now?
MR. ROBBINS: Your defense counsel does. Let me ask you this: This isn't inconsistent with what you testified to, is it? You said you know that these Jews were being sent to Auschwitz?
A: No; I didn't say that. I said that in Hungary it had come to my knowledge that Jews were brought to Germany in order to work in armament industries.
Q: Witness, I think the transcript will show, and I think the Tribunal will recall, that you testified very clearly that you knew that Jews were being sent to Auschwitz for the purpose of being exterminated. Now, do you wish to change that testimony now?
A: I don't have to change my previous testimony because it doesn't agree with what I am telling you, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q: Are you telling us now -- (interruption) Are you telling us now that you -
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, now ...
INTERPRETER: Correction. It should be, "It doesn't agree with what you are telling me."
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: Do I understand you to say that you did not hear at any time about Jews being sent to Auschwitz?
A: I have never heard that Jews were sent to Auschwitz in order to be gassed there, or that they were sent there just because they belonged to that particular race. That Jews were in the Concentration Camp Auschwitz I could imagine.
Q: Let's get this straight. Is your testimony now, that you never heard of any one being gassed in a concentration camp, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: You never heard of any one being exterminated in any way?
A: No.
Q: You only heard that Jews were being sent from Hungary to Auschwitz?
A: No, I have stated repeatedly that the Hungarian Jews were not sent to Auschwitz, but that they were sent to German.
Q: Did you talk to your counsel during the recess about this testimony?
A: Since the conclusion of my direct examination I haven't talked with my defense counsel any more.
Q: No one suggested that you change your testimony that you gave before the recess?
A: I want to repeat once more, that as far as I can recall I did not change my testimony at all. I have always testified to the same thing.
MR. ROBBINS: I think the record would be the best evidence about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, let's be sure about that, Mr. Robbins. Before the witness leaves the stand confront him with the testimony that he has given - if you do it today, tomorrow, or at any other time. Let's make sure whether he has changed his testimony comparing it to what he testified to before the recess.
MR. ROBBINS: As soon as the transcript is ready, which will be some time tonight, I will make it available to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Do it any time.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: How many trips did the defendant Volk make to the East?
A: I don't know that. I don't know how many trips he took. I know that he saw me on one or two occasions a Posen, hut I don't think that he was there very often.
Q. You only know about one or two occasions, is that right?
A. I can't recall any additional times, at the moment; however, I may have seen him there three or four times.
Q. While you were SS Wirtschafter in Hungary, did you hear about the problem that the SS had of getting Hungarian currency to pay Hungarian members of the Waffen-SS?
A. No, I don't think so. After all, I received my funds from the Wehrmacht administrative office, and they served the purpose to pay the SS & Police units and to give them appropriate funds for the SS & Police units stationed in Hungary. At the moment I cannot recall that any SS agency was confronted with this problem which has been mentioned just now.
Q. Well, it was an SS problem to pay the Hungarian members of the Waffen-SS, wasn't it?
A. That was no problem as far as I was concerned. As far as Hungarian members of the Waffen-SS who were stationed in Hungary, they were paid by their divisions with my assistance.
Q. And you had to get Hungarian currency for that purpose?
A. If these units were stationed in Hungary, yes.
Q. And it was the policy of the SS to levy a tax on Jews that would leave Hungary for the purpose of paying and getting currency, Hungarian currency, to pay the Waffen-SS?
A. I don't know anything about that. I received sufficient funds from the German Wehrmacht administrative office.
Q. You never heard about a tax levied upon Jews leaving the country?
A. I never heard anything about the fact that the SS imposed a tax on the Jews in Hungary. In any case, I did not receive any funds from this tax, and I had nothing whatsoever to do with these things.
Q. Were your activities in Hungary in connection with the Manfred Weiss concern carried out in your capacity as SS-Wirtschafter?
A. I don't believe that the translation was quite correct.
Q. You had certain dealings with the Manfred Weiss concern?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you carry out those dealings in your capacity as - SS-Wirtschafter?
A. No, that was a special assignment which I received.
Q. And from whom did you receive it?
A. Becher had requested Himmler that he should be furnished some expert collaborators, and Himmler apparently turned to Pohl, and Pohl, in turn, told me that I should contact Becher and that I should help him carry out his custodian tasks.
Q. And Pohl gave you the order?
A. Yes, he told me that I should look after these trusteeship matters.
Q. Pohl's only jurisdiction over you was as an SS-Wirtschafter, was it not?
A. Well, after all, I belonged to the corps of the administrative offices of the SS, and in this capacity Pohl was my highest superior.
Q. You were still considered a part of the WVHA?
A. Well, that was the case more or less with every administrative officer of the SS, no matter if he was an SSWirtenschafter or an administrative officer in a division or corps.
After all, that was the main office for the reserve units.
Q. That is also true for officers in the SS serving with the administrative & supply department of the Waffen-SS, is it not? They are considered a part or subordinate to the WVHA?
A. All administrative officers of the Waffen-SS had the WVHA as their reserve group unit.
Q. Do you know whether the Manfred Weiss family received any compensation for this factory?
A. Yes; I talked to Baron Weiss one time in Vienna, and on several other occasions afterwards, and he told me that within the scope of the custodianship agreement certain payments to him had to be made. However, that was not actually the purchasing price for the works because the works were not sold, but they were only kept in a certain trusteeship.
Q. Do you know whether he ever received any money?
A. I believe I understood him correctly to say that certain payments were made, and that still one installment had to be paid. However, this installment was not as yet due at that period of time.
Q. And the family was forced to leave the country?
A. The family was not forced to leave, but, as far as I know, the family requested permission to leave the country.
Q. They were just given permission to leave, is that right?
A. Yes, I beieve that is correct.
Q. Did you know where the concentration camp Auschwitz was, where it was located?
A. In Upper Silesia.
Q. Did you ever--were you ever in the city of Auschwitz?
A. I was on one occasion in the city of Auschwitz.
Q. Only one time?
A. I can't recall having been there a second time.
Q. Were you ever in the outer area of the Auschwitz camp?
A. Are you referring to the area, to the limits of that area?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't think so. I don't know how far away the camp was removed from the city of Auschwitz. If the camp was very close to the city, and I passed by the city limits, then it is quite possible.
Q. Well, it is about four kilometers, is it not, from the city?
A. I can't tell you that.
Q. Did you ever see outside work details around the camp Auschwitz?
A. No, with the exception of the detachment which worked at Golleschau.
Q. What was the date when you were in the city of Auschwitz?
A. I can't tell you the date for certain anymore, but it must have been in the year 1942 or 1943.
Q. Did you ever visit, or were you ever inside, the outer area of any other concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Any labor camp?
A. I wasn't there either. In order to complete my statement, in the summer of 1940 I once visited the brick works at Oranienburg, which, however was not part of the concentration camp.
I just wanted to state that now for clarification.
Q. You weren't forced by any decree of the Reich to join the SS, were you, in the first place?
A. To the Waffen-SS? Yes. I was actually conscripted to that.
Q. You understood my question, didn't you?
A. Well, could you please repeat your question once more if I didn't give you the correct answer.
Q. When you first entered the Waffen-SS, you weren't forced by any decree to enter?
A. No, I was not forced by law or decree of the Reich.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions of this witness by Defense counsel or by his own counsel?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLICK: (Counsel for defendants Volk Bobermin):
Q. Witness, first of all I want to show you Document NO-4467, Exhibit 526--
THE PRESIDENT: One moment. What is the exhibit number?
DR. GAWLICK: Five-two-six. It was submitted today. NO4467. I beg your pardon, it is 626.
BY DR. GAWLICK:
Q. Just how did the sale take place, the sale of your products, and how was it carried out?
A. We must make a difference here between the Klinker Cement Company and the Eastern German construction Material Company. In the case of the Eastern German construction Material Company, the sale was within the individual companies.
Q. Were you informed about the individual sales? Did the Central Works managers do that independently or can you please explain the matter to us?
A. The sales usually were carried out independently from the Central Works managers. In practice, it is impossible that with a large number of products--for the first year alone, six hundred million bricks were sold, and later on there may have been several millions less, but the figure was still extremely high--that I should obtain knowledge of each individual sale.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
The same for Upper Silesia took place through the works at Bieletz and for the Warthegau it took place at the working center of Posen. However, it is drawn to my attention in this travel report that here the Eastern German Construction Material firms in Posen are listed where supposedly the brick was furnished for Auschwitz, and it would have been more likely if they had been ordered with the Eastern German Construction Company in Upper Silesia. Therefore, I cannot understand why the author of this letter speaks about the fact here that he has ordered construction materials for Silesia at Posen.
Q Would these sales have to be approved by any agency?
A These sales of brick had to be authorized by the brick distribution center and that was the compulsory cartel of all brick works. It was under the direction of the State and this agency was to prevent that bricks would be sold outside of the area. It was to prevent that for instance, from the Warthegau bricks would be delivered to Upper Silesia. There was no necessity to do this, because Upper Silesia had its own large brick production.
Q Before that, did you ever obtain any knowledge of this document, of this report?
A No.
Q Before that, did you ever have any knowledge about the sale of bricks to the concentration camp Auschwitz, which has been mentioned in this document?
A No, I can't recall that at all.
Q Did you know the firm Schriever & Company at Hannover, which has been mentioned in this document?
A Yes. The firm of Schriever at Hannover is known to me. It would frequently deliver machines to us.
Q What kind of machines did they furnish to you?
A They were machines for the production of bricks. I can't tell you at the moment whether Schriever and Company was only a production firm or whether it was a registered trade firm.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you ever give any orders to that firm to furnish machines for the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you have any knowledge of the fact that this firm was also furnishing machines for the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you participate in the ordering and the furnishing of the ball mill which has been mentioned in this document?
A No.
Q Before that, did you have any knowledge of the fact that this firm furnished a ball mill to the concentration camp at Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Witness, I am now going to show you the document which has been presented by the Prosecution in the cross-examination. It is a report from Eastern German Construction Material Company and I ask you in order to correct the transcript to read the production figures of the Eastern German Construction Material Company on Page 29 and also to read to us just to whom the Eastern German Construction Material Company delivered the production goods. Please take a look at the last month there, the Month of November.
A The last month?
Q Who was the main consumer of the Eastern German Construction Material Company in November?
A In November, 1940, the sales of the Eastern German Construction Material Company amounted to the following according to this report: To the German Reichsban, the Reich railways, 1,186,900; to the Reich Labor Service, 30,000; to the Army and SS together, 203,800; to the Road Construction Office, 138,500; to the Water Economic Offices, 45,800; to the other agencies, 2,407,200; to the private customers, 1,179,700. These figures show that altogether, 5,191,900 units of bricks were delivered in that month and to the Army and SS together, 203,800 bricks were sold. Therefore, this is only a very small fraction.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I think this serves best to show that I worked for the German Construction Material market.
Q On Page 7 of the report, it is stated that after the construction of the works in the Eastern German Construction Company, in order to regulate the commercial and the technical management, 7 SS officers, 10 SS non-commissioned officers, and 567 male, and 161 female employees were employed there. Can you comment about the correctness of that statement and the figures?
A I believe that this number has correctly reproduced the people of my staff at that time.
Q I take it from the report that this is only the commercial and the technical personnel and not the workers, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q The 567 male civilian employees who have been mentioned here were not members of the SS, is that correct?
A Yes. Otherwise they would have been mentioned amongst the members of the SS. To a very high percentage, they consisted of Poles.
Q It is further stated on Page 5a of this report that altogether 413 members were included there. Can you comment on that figure?
A I can't do that with certainty, because in another document which I submitted myself, and that is the draft of the letter of Pohl to Himmler of the summer of 1941, 313 brick works are mentioned. It is therefore possible that here we have a mistake in the figure, or the figure is put too high for reasons which I cannot explain.
Q On Page 6, it is further stated with regard to the difficulties which arose, it is stated here that a number of difficulties arose and the reason for them was on one hand that the orders which were issued by the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East did not regulate the border line cases and we have the reason here that the economic life was so complicated that in a legal form the actual conditions without a knowledge of the prevailing facts could not be legally devised. Are these Court No. II, Case No. 4.statements correct?
A Mr. Defense Counsel, I think that a lawyer wrote this very complicated sentence, but the conditions were actually very complicated and confused.
Q On Page 7, it is further stated, "In this time, whenever the owners did not have any financial means of support, certain compensation was granted," and it goes on to say, "Applicants whenever they requested financial support even if they did not have any chance of success, they would receive financial support according to the welfare rules, which applied in the German Reich, if they were not capable of performing work. If they were capable of working, they would be employed in the seized plants in a subordinate capacity," is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q.- Do you want to add anything on the subject?
A.- Yes. I want to say something with regard to the phrase "subordinate position." You have interpreted it in such a way that now he was working under the direction of general custodian. These people were not employed as workers.
Q.- What do you mean by the phrase "subordinate position"?
A.- Well, he had to work under the general custodian.
Q.- It is further stated on pages 9 and 10 about the condition of the enterprises. "We found these enterprises in a condition which in most cases cannot even be described. These enterprises could only be describes as being completely miserable. The experts which were brought from the Reich could only be moved after exerting particular pressure on them to again temporarily cause the miserable factories to resume the production of bricks." Is that correct and do you want to comment on that?
A.- Yes, that applied to a certain extent. There is no doubt that it is correct that a considerable number of the factories were not safe for work and operation. My work group leaders, in part, had misgivings about bringing these enterprises into operation at all. That is why in the first two years we had so many expenses in order to make these plants secure for operation again.
Q.- It is further stated on page 11 of the report "spare parts, machines, and other equipment - 2,590 Mk and 96 pfennigs were spent in the plants in which these machines were installed. For the most part do you consider this sum correct?
A.- It must be correct for that period of time. However, that is only part of the actual investments that were made.
Q.- Can you tell from the report for what period of tine this figure applies?
A.- I cannot take it from this page.
Q.- Well, look at the entire report.
A.- As far as I know it applies to the first half year.
Q.- On page 12 of the report it is stated that there were altogether a total of 14,837 male and female workers. Can you comment on that number?
A.- This figure should be correct for the first six months. The figure later on was reduced because first of all the plants were improved and labor was exchanged against capital and then later on not all of the plants were in operation any more. Furthermore, many workers were not needed any more -- that is, workers who had to carry out the repair work in the course of the first 2 years.
Q.- It is then stated on page 16 of the report under the dealing with the legal taxation matters the work was rendered more difficult by the fact that, in particular, all Polish laws remained in existence and the Russian law was valid and, in part, already laws of the Reich with additional specifications for the transition period had already been introduced, is that correct?
A.- I only know that at that time, in fact, we had two or three different constitutions of law which existed next to each other. That is what complicated the legal situation extremely and I left it to my legal experts.
Q.- And who were they?
A.- At first it was Dr. Volk.
Q.- It is stated on page 17 with regard to these taxation matters the difficulties of carrying out this work, however, became most evident in taking care of the material with regard to the ground and real estate titles because in some areas of Poland we had Russian, Polish and German laws. In some areas we did not have any land registers with regard to the ownership. I an going to leave out several sentences and I go on to say it was especially difficult to obtain the real estate registers. Who had to carry out this work?
A.- It was part of the task of the General Trustee to find out who actually owned the properties and he also had to settle the real estate registry ratter. Since the real estate registry books were not kept uniformly in Poland it was especially difficult. We had to see to it whether this had been formerly Russian, Austrian, or Prussian territory and if our real estate laws had remained in existence then, of course, the difficulties were indeed very great.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Gawlik, all you are proving is that the witness had a difficult job which we are willing to concede because it is of no importance.
DR. GAWLIK: The last two questions, your Honor, referred to the defendant Dr. Volk. I ask the two questions in this connection so I would not take up too much time of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You are examining him on behalf of the defendant Volk?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, with regard to the last two questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I guess that's all right.
DR. GAWLIK: If you don't think it necessary then please tell me but I thought it my duty to ask these questions. I am also defense counsel for the defendant Volk.
THE PRESIDENT: That's what makes it a little confusing. I understand why you asked the question now.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, we have had translated only the first IV pages of this report because it seems that the last part which is mostly statistical isn't important.
THE PRESIDENT: Are the first 17 pages important?
MR. ROBBINS: I think so. After Dr. Gawlik studies the report if he wants the last part translated, which I trust he won't, we will have that done also.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I consider the entire report very important. And if I could draw the attention of the Tribunal to the maps at the end of this report they show how large an area of activity the defendant Bo bermin extended and the high number of enterprises which are all listed in the maps on the last pages of the document.
I think that these maps have a very high probative value for the decision of the question to what extent this man's work extended, and in order to take care of such a large number of enterprises just how much time he could devot to the plant at Gelleschau which had an independent manager. I very much want to have this translated in its entirety.
MR. ROBBINS: I trust the Tribunal can look at the maps on the last part of the document and that it will not be necessary to have them photostated and reproduced.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't want all these figures, all these statistics translated, do you?
DR. GAWLIK: No, Your Honor, I only want the one map which shows just where the enterprises of the Eastern German Construction Material Co. plants were located. I only wanted to draw the attention of the Tribunal to these maps.
THE PRESIDENT: We will study them. We will look at them but they needn't be put in separate documents in English. That's all that's necessary.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q.- Witness, in the cross examination you were asked by the Prosecution whether the owners of these brick works had fled before the SS or the Einsatsgruppen. Why did these owners actually flee? Did they flee before the SS or the Einsatsgruppen?
A.- I don't know the exact reasons but it is generally known that in the case of War operations the population actually flees from the territories where the war operations are taking place and the wealthy people usually have the custom of going to the neutral countries.
Q.- Did you ever hear that the owners of these brick works had been killed?