Q. You were pretty certain that you had Jews working there, isn't that right; you didn't doubt it?
A. I couldn't recognize those Jews as being Jews. I said there could have been Jews amongst them.
Q. Could you tell whether there were non-Germans there?
A. I couldn't see that.
Q. You thought they were all Germans, is that right?
A. I didn't think so; no.
Q. Did you think any of them were Germans?
A. The camp commander with whom I spoke was a German certainly. He came from the Rhineland; he told me that.
O. Now, just answer my following question as simply as you can. Did you know that foreigners, non-German nationals, were working at your plant at Golleschau, did you know that for a fact?
A. For a fact I didn't know it. I could only assume it.
Q. Did you think that all of these people, all of these inmates had been tried and put in the concentration camp by legal process?
A. Not on the basis of a legal trial, but rather the basis of a so-called protective custody, order, which was a police procedure.
Q. You knew what a protective custody order consisted of, didn't you?
A. What it consisted of in detail I couldn't tell you because I never saw one. As far as I know about, and what I heard about a protective custody order or a protective custody proceeding, I knew it was a police proceeding.
Q. Did you ever hear about Jews and Poles being rounded up and put into concentration camps indiscriminately?
A. No. That Jews were brought to concentration camps due to race I didn't know nor did I hear it.
Q. What, if anything, did you have to do with armament production?
A. With the armament production, did you say?
Q. Yes.
A. Directly I had nothing to do with the armament production.
Q. What did you have to do with it indirectly?
A. The fireproof enterprises were certainly additional enterprises for the industry that worked in iron, the iron industry.
Q. Will you repeat that please?
A. The enterprises for fireproof products were supply plants for the industry that worked with iron. They supplied the so-called form stones and tube stones. They are those where the liquid iron is poured into in order to give it a certain shape. They are moulds, stone moulds.
Q. Did those have anything to do with concentration camps?
A. No, no.
Q. Concentration-camp labor wasn't used?
A. No.
Q. Are there any other indirect connections which you had with the armament program?
A. Only insofar, of course, as cement and other construction material was necessary for the establishment of armament plants, the same as it applied to a barn or a private building.
Q. And that is all, that is all that you have to say about that?
A. Yes, that is all I have to say about it.
Q. Did the concentration camps have anything to do with this last phase that you have just spoken of?
A. You are talking about the armament industry and the supplying of the armament industry?
Q. Your answer was what?
A. No, the concentration camp had nothing to do with the armament industry in this connection.
Q. Have you ever seen your personnel file, witness, your SS personnel file?
A. I don't think so.
Q. You have never seen a statement in your personnel file signed by Pohl where he says, "Bobermin has gained a special merit in the occasion of carrying out armament tasks in connection with the concentration camps"?
A. No, I did not read that.
Q. What do you think that Pohl could be referring to here?
A. I don't know that; it is absolutely new to me.
Q. It is not true. Is that right? Pohl is mistaken.
A. I told you in what connection I used the concentration camp inmate labor, and I also told you what my relationship was to the armament industry. That is all. The only way I can explain the thing is that this was probably a proposal for a promotion, and that Herr Pohl sort of colored my qualifications in order to emphasize the importance of my activity. I can only tell you what I did and what the relationships were.
Q. It is true, isn't it, witness, that the Portland Cement Factory, Golleschau, was the largest enterprise in East Silesia?
A. It was not the largest cement factory; it was a medium-sized cement factory. According to my recollection, there were at least two cement factories that were larger than the one at Golleschau -- possibly even three.
Q. What were those?
A. At the moment I cannot remember their names. I only know that the cement plants which were part of the Eastern German Chemical Plants were larger and I believe that the cement plant of Wisoka was larger also.
Q. What was their yearly capacity for cement?
A. The potential capacity of the plant was two hundred forty thousand tons. The union output was approximately two hundred fourteen thousand tons or two hundred ten thousand tons; the actual output - what was actually produced in a year - was, according to my recollection, between a hundred and forty thousand and a hundred and sixty thousand tons.
Q. And that is for the Portland Company?
A. Yes, that is the Portland Cement Factory at Golleschau.
Q. That is a bigger production than any other concrete works in East Silesia, is it not? Two hundred forty thousand tons?
A. No, not at all. I told you already that I can also remember the name of another factory, for instance, the Schakowa, which was part of the Hermann Goering Works, which was also larger.
Q. Would you say it was the second or third largest?
A. I don't think it was the second largest - possibly the third or fourth largest factory, yes. That, however, only refers to the seven East Upper Silesia factories. It is possible that in the Oppeln plants - the capacity of which I don't know -- there is a larger plant also.
Q. And it is your testimony that none of the products of none of your industries ever came into the Reich?
A. Would you repeat, please?
Q. The products of hone of your industries ever came into the Reich?
A. Do you mean generally speaking or are you referring only to the Eastern German Construction Material Company?
Q. I am talking about all of your companies.
A. The cement plant at Golleschau surely also exported into the Reich - old Reich territory - because the so-called District Upper Silesia consisted of Germany proper and the former Polish area, and at the time there were no limits whatsoever about the delivery.
It is also possible that cement was sent to the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia, but even the supplying of cement had been restricted according to areas. It was only that the transportation limits were farther than that for brick products.
Q. What percentage of the production went into the Reich?
A. I couldn't tell you that; I don't know that.
Q. A very large amount, wouldn't you say?
A. I don't know the figure at all; therefore, I couldn't tell you if the percentage was rather high or not. That was taken care of by the cement syndicate.
Q. You have been telling us about various international treaties. Did you ever hear of the Hague Convention of Land Warfare?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the provision that prohibits an occupying power from using the products of the country which it is occupying for any purpose other than to support the occupying army?
A. Yes, indeed; I have read that regulation now.
Q. You didn't know it when you were operating in the East, is that right?
A. At the time I did not deal with such questions because the area within which those plants were was part of the German Reich, according to my idea and according to the German idea of law.
Q. Witness, your witness Winkler testified at great length that the reason that the Jews and Poles were not paid for their property was that the war was still on; the war was still on and the occupying army was in the field, and it wasn't possible for this country to be annexed, was it?
A. I didn't get that question; it was rather long.
Q. Well, it is a legal question that we need not argue here. Did you ever hear of a concentration camp in Hungary?
A. When I was in Hungary, I only heard that the Hungarian government had something similar to a concentration camp -- or was alleged to have installed something similar to a concentration camp?
Q. Is that all you heard about concentration camps in Hungary?
A. About concentration camps, yes.
Q. What did you hear about labor camps?
A. Prior to the establishment of the trusteeship administration, it was planned to install and establish a labor camp near the Manfred Weiss Works. That labor camp, however, was never completed, nor was it ever occupied.
Q. Are you telling us that there were no labor camps in Hungary?
A. That I couldn't tell you. In any case, under my competency there were none.
Q. I am just asking you what existed there in the first place, Were there labor camps in Hungary?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Did you hear about deportations of Hungarians to the Reich?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Did you hear about deportations of Hungarians to Poland?
A. No. At the time they only spoke about it, and by that I mean the population in Hungary was talking about it. Officially, I never did find out anything, that the entire Hungarian nation was to be fully activated for war purposes. Every Hungarian was to become a soldier, as far as he could, and the Jewish citizens were to be employed in the armament industry. Hungarians told me that.
Q. They didn't tell you, did they, that four or five hundred Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz and gassed there?
A. No, they did not.
Q. I want to discuss, in that connection, a document that you touched on this morning, and that is in Book 12, NO-2128-A. It is Exhibit 331, on page 12. Do you have it? Do you have it?
A. No, I don't have it. I would appreciate it if my defense counsel would give me that document.
Q. It is also in Book 18. Do you have Book 18 there?
A. Yes.
Q. It is on page 88 in the German text.
A. Yes, indeed; I found it now. Thank you.
Q. Now, these are the regulations governing the SS Economic Administrator. Will you--- First let me ask you this, witness. You heard your counsel, Dr. Gawlik, testify this morning that these regulations didn't apply to you, is that correct?
A. Those regulations only referred to me in a "mental sense".
Q. In a what?
A. I mean, according to their sense. That means that only those tasks which occurred in my office were dealt with under those regulations.
Q. Didn't Pohl tell you when you took the job as SS-Wirtschafter that these regulations applied to you?
A. When I was sent to Hungary, there was no SS-Economist.
Q. Now, just answer my question. Did Pohl tell you that these applied to you?
A. It was said that those regulations were to he applied according to their sense.
Q. Did you tell Dr. Gawlik that these did not apply to you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. As a matter of fact, Pohl told you specifically that they did apply to you, didn't he?
A. I already told you that according to their sense, yes, as far as the tasks were concerned, I mean, that came under our jurisdiction.
Q. So there won't be any doubt about that, I would like to show you a document and see if you will make the matter absolutely clear. This is NO-3896. This is Pohl's order dated the 14th of April, 1944, creating the office of SS-Wirtschafter, is it not?
A Yes, indeed. It is stated there exactly as I said before.
Q. It is stated there explicitly that these orders applied and it doesn't say anything about the sense of the order, does it? It says they apply.
A It is stated there in the third last line, "accordingly applied to the SS Economic administrator on the staff of the higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary." That is exactly the way I stated it.
Q. I think the record will show how you stated it. I would like to show you another document and ask you --Excuse me. The document I have just shown you is NO-3986, and I will mark it as Prosecution Exhibit 628.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 627, isn't it?
MR. ROBBINS: 627 is the Baier memorandum to Pohl about the Jewish claims that I haven't a copy of as yet.
DR. GAWLIK (attorney for Defendant Bobermin): Your Honor, I would like to object to the document which was introduced before. At the moment I simply can't tell if the translation is correct. As far as I can see at the moment, I believe that the words "according to their sense" are missing in the translation, because the words "according to the sense" are decisive.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Which document?
DR. GAWLIK:NO-3986, Prosecution Exhibit 628, Your Honor. "According to the sense" means "as such would definitely apply." "Only at certain times it applies, but not at all times." That is the German meaning of the words, "according to their sense." As far as I can tell at the moment, this term is missing, Mr. President. I am afraid it is missing.
MR. ROBBINS: Does the translator have a German copy?
INTERPRETER SIMHA: Yes, we do, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: Perhaps it can be cleared up if the translator read the German and translated it into English.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, what paragraph?
MR. ROBBINS: It is the third paragraph of Exhibit 628.
INTERPRETER SIMHA: Mr. Robbins, "accordingly apply to the SS Economic Administrator, etc.," here in German it says, "Sinngemaess." An accurate translation of this would be, "according to their sense."
THE PRESIDENT: It means "wherever applicable." "Wherever they apply."
INTERPRETER SIMHA: "Wherever they apply. "
MR. ROBBINS: "Wherever they apply."
THE PRESIDENT: We have written that in on the English translation, Dr. Gawlik.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) Witness, let me show you Document NO-4333and ask you if you can identify this. I will mark this document as Exhibit 629 for identification. Do you know this document, Witness?
A. I do not know the original document. It is possible that a copy was later on sent to my files also when I became an SS economist.
I would like to leave this possibility open.
Q. You know that this is the general order that Himmler gave to Pohl which order was effectuated by the document in Book XII and XVIII, namely 2128A.
A. This is apparently the basic order of Himmler according to which the orders of execution were releases or issued by Pohl, I believe that too.
Q. Will you look at Pohl's order?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Robbins, let me ask one question. Witness weren't you appointed to the Office of Economic Administrator in the East on the basis of this order issued by Himmler on the 13th of June, 1942?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I never was the SS Economist in the East. I was only the SS Economist in Hungary.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, in Hungary, weren't you appointed on the basis of this order?
THE WITNESS: On the basis of this order? Well, let's see. This order is about two years older, as such, but, of course, this was the basic order for the establishment of SS Economists in the occupied territories.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And on the authority of this order, Pohl appointed you, did he not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I was appointed on the basis of this order, actually as the first economist in an unoccupied state.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And by Pohl?
THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, that is -- well, let's see. I believe Himmler himself had to do that, Himmler upon Pohl's suggestion. I couldn't tell you that for certain, though.
THE PRESIDENT: That is what it says here.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is what it says in the order itself.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) You received your appointment by Pohl, didn't you, directly from Pohl?
A. Yes, yes. Quite so. I think so.
Q. Now, Himmler ordered that it would be part of the task of the Economic Wirtschafter to deal with concentration camp matters in his area, did he not?
A. Yes, indeed, that is what is stated in this document.
Q. And Pohl's order which effectuates the basic order, paragraph 11 of Document NO-2128, tells the Economic Administrator what to do about concentration camps, is that right.
A. Yes, quite so.
Q. And you are familiar with Pohl's regulations of the 23rd of July, 1942, are you not?
A. Let's see. Yes, indeed. They were sent to me at the time.
THE PRESIDENT: Give us that exhibit number.
MR. ROBBINS: That is Exhibit 331.
Q. And Pohl orders that the Economic Administrator, the SS Wirtschafter, is competent for all concentration camp matters, including escapes, executions, etc., that he is competent for labor matters in his occupied territory. Now you wish us to believe that in spite of the fact around 400,000 Jews were rounded up in Hungary, put in camps, and then sent to Auschwitz to be gassed, you knew nothing about it?
A. No. I had nothing to do with it officially. I said that I heard about it. Officially I had nothing to do with it. That was an internal Hungarian matter.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When did he hear about it?
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. When did you hear about it?
A. I believe soon after I was in Hungary. I came to Hungary in the first few days of April, April or May, I can't tell you for certain.
Q. Sommer makes the statement under oath in an affidavit which is NO-2739, was referred to in the cross-examination of Sommer, that in May or June 1944 Maurer notified him of the anticipated arrival of 150,000 to 200,000 Jews from Hungary and he learned that they were to be gassed in Auschwitz. Is that about the number you heard about? You heard about 200,000 Jews?
A. I never did hear any figures at all.
Q. How many did you hear about, 1,000, 2,000, or 3,000?
A. I told you before that I didn't hear any figures.
Q. And it is your testimony to this Court that none of this matter had anything to do with you even though you were the second highest SS man in the territory.
A. Yes, indeed. I shall stick to that testimony.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. GAULIK: Your Honor, the question was put to the witness that Sommer had testified here that no had found out that 150,000 - 200,000 Jews had been brought to Germany from Hungary in order to be gassed. I have just learned that Sommer has never made a statement of that kind. I therefore request that the question and the answer be stricken from the record, and that the witness should be shown the record of what Sommer actually testified to.
MR. ROBBINS: In that case, may it please the Tribunal, I will mark Sommer's affidavit, NO-2739, as Prosecution Exhibit 629 -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: No, 630.
MR. ROBBINS: 630; and offer it at a later date.
THE PRESIDENT: No, if you are going to use it as a basis for examining the witness it will have to be in evidence. Why can't it be offered now?
DR. GAWLIK.: Your Honor, may I request that this affidavit could be shown to the witness, if he had to answer at all on the basis of this affidavit?
THE PRESIDENT: This affidavit hasn't been presented before?
MR. ROBBINS: I am sorry to say I am not certain what happened during the cross-examination of Sommer, I wasn't in here. I asked the attorney to put it in evidence, but I think it was not. I believe it was shown to him. At any rate, I will show this to the defendant Bobermin.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document number?
MR. ROBBINS: It is 2739. I am pretty certain it wasn't -- I am certain it wasn't marked for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: Alright. Show it to the Witness.
WITNESS: I read this point in the affidavit. Do you want me to comment on it now?
MR. ROBBINS: Your defense counsel does. Let me ask you this: This isn't inconsistent with what you testified to, is it? You said you know that these Jews were being sent to Auschwitz?
A: No; I didn't say that. I said that in Hungary it had come to my knowledge that Jews were brought to Germany in order to work in armament industries.
Q: Witness, I think the transcript will show, and I think the Tribunal will recall, that you testified very clearly that you knew that Jews were being sent to Auschwitz for the purpose of being exterminated. Now, do you wish to change that testimony now?
A: I don't have to change my previous testimony because it doesn't agree with what I am telling you, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q: Are you telling us now -- (interruption) Are you telling us now that you -
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, now ...
INTERPRETER: Correction. It should be, "It doesn't agree with what you are telling me."
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: Do I understand you to say that you did not hear at any time about Jews being sent to Auschwitz?
A: I have never heard that Jews were sent to Auschwitz in order to be gassed there, or that they were sent there just because they belonged to that particular race. That Jews were in the Concentration Camp Auschwitz I could imagine.
Q: Let's get this straight. Is your testimony now, that you never heard of any one being gassed in a concentration camp, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: You never heard of any one being exterminated in any way?
A: No.
Q: You only heard that Jews were being sent from Hungary to Auschwitz?
A: No, I have stated repeatedly that the Hungarian Jews were not sent to Auschwitz, but that they were sent to German.
Q: Did you talk to your counsel during the recess about this testimony?
A: Since the conclusion of my direct examination I haven't talked with my defense counsel any more.
Q: No one suggested that you change your testimony that you gave before the recess?
A: I want to repeat once more, that as far as I can recall I did not change my testimony at all. I have always testified to the same thing.
MR. ROBBINS: I think the record would be the best evidence about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, let's be sure about that, Mr. Robbins. Before the witness leaves the stand confront him with the testimony that he has given - if you do it today, tomorrow, or at any other time. Let's make sure whether he has changed his testimony comparing it to what he testified to before the recess.
MR. ROBBINS: As soon as the transcript is ready, which will be some time tonight, I will make it available to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Do it any time.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q: How many trips did the defendant Volk make to the East?
A: I don't know that. I don't know how many trips he took. I know that he saw me on one or two occasions a Posen, hut I don't think that he was there very often.
Q. You only know about one or two occasions, is that right?
A. I can't recall any additional times, at the moment; however, I may have seen him there three or four times.
Q. While you were SS Wirtschafter in Hungary, did you hear about the problem that the SS had of getting Hungarian currency to pay Hungarian members of the Waffen-SS?
A. No, I don't think so. After all, I received my funds from the Wehrmacht administrative office, and they served the purpose to pay the SS & Police units and to give them appropriate funds for the SS & Police units stationed in Hungary. At the moment I cannot recall that any SS agency was confronted with this problem which has been mentioned just now.
Q. Well, it was an SS problem to pay the Hungarian members of the Waffen-SS, wasn't it?
A. That was no problem as far as I was concerned. As far as Hungarian members of the Waffen-SS who were stationed in Hungary, they were paid by their divisions with my assistance.
Q. And you had to get Hungarian currency for that purpose?
A. If these units were stationed in Hungary, yes.
Q. And it was the policy of the SS to levy a tax on Jews that would leave Hungary for the purpose of paying and getting currency, Hungarian currency, to pay the Waffen-SS?
A. I don't know anything about that. I received sufficient funds from the German Wehrmacht administrative office.
Q. You never heard about a tax levied upon Jews leaving the country?
A. I never heard anything about the fact that the SS imposed a tax on the Jews in Hungary. In any case, I did not receive any funds from this tax, and I had nothing whatsoever to do with these things.
Q. Were your activities in Hungary in connection with the Manfred Weiss concern carried out in your capacity as SS-Wirtschafter?
A. I don't believe that the translation was quite correct.
Q. You had certain dealings with the Manfred Weiss concern?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you carry out those dealings in your capacity as - SS-Wirtschafter?
A. No, that was a special assignment which I received.
Q. And from whom did you receive it?
A. Becher had requested Himmler that he should be furnished some expert collaborators, and Himmler apparently turned to Pohl, and Pohl, in turn, told me that I should contact Becher and that I should help him carry out his custodian tasks.
Q. And Pohl gave you the order?
A. Yes, he told me that I should look after these trusteeship matters.
Q. Pohl's only jurisdiction over you was as an SS-Wirtschafter, was it not?
A. Well, after all, I belonged to the corps of the administrative offices of the SS, and in this capacity Pohl was my highest superior.
Q. You were still considered a part of the WVHA?
A. Well, that was the case more or less with every administrative officer of the SS, no matter if he was an SSWirtenschafter or an administrative officer in a division or corps.
After all, that was the main office for the reserve units.
Q. That is also true for officers in the SS serving with the administrative & supply department of the Waffen-SS, is it not? They are considered a part or subordinate to the WVHA?
A. All administrative officers of the Waffen-SS had the WVHA as their reserve group unit.
Q. Do you know whether the Manfred Weiss family received any compensation for this factory?
A. Yes; I talked to Baron Weiss one time in Vienna, and on several other occasions afterwards, and he told me that within the scope of the custodianship agreement certain payments to him had to be made. However, that was not actually the purchasing price for the works because the works were not sold, but they were only kept in a certain trusteeship.
Q. Do you know whether he ever received any money?
A. I believe I understood him correctly to say that certain payments were made, and that still one installment had to be paid. However, this installment was not as yet due at that period of time.
Q. And the family was forced to leave the country?
A. The family was not forced to leave, but, as far as I know, the family requested permission to leave the country.
Q. They were just given permission to leave, is that right?
A. Yes, I beieve that is correct.
Q. Did you know where the concentration camp Auschwitz was, where it was located?
A. In Upper Silesia.
Q. Did you ever--were you ever in the city of Auschwitz?
A. I was on one occasion in the city of Auschwitz.
Q. Only one time?
A. I can't recall having been there a second time.
Q. Were you ever in the outer area of the Auschwitz camp?
A. Are you referring to the area, to the limits of that area?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't think so. I don't know how far away the camp was removed from the city of Auschwitz. If the camp was very close to the city, and I passed by the city limits, then it is quite possible.
Q. Well, it is about four kilometers, is it not, from the city?
A. I can't tell you that.
Q. Did you ever see outside work details around the camp Auschwitz?
A. No, with the exception of the detachment which worked at Golleschau.
Q. What was the date when you were in the city of Auschwitz?
A. I can't tell you the date for certain anymore, but it must have been in the year 1942 or 1943.
Q. Did you ever visit, or were you ever inside, the outer area of any other concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Any labor camp?
A. I wasn't there either. In order to complete my statement, in the summer of 1940 I once visited the brick works at Oranienburg, which, however was not part of the concentration camp.