A. I answered the following at the time. I was shown a circular -
Q. Excuse me. Would you answer the question and then explain it? Did you make that statement?
A. I can't answer your question either with "yes," or "no" because the word, "considerably less," was not used. Probably only "less". I would appreciate it if you would give me the opportunity now to explain how this whole thing came about.
Q. Let me ask you a few more questions and then I will. Did you also say that you noticed that the labor production of the production of the concentration camp inmates was about 70% of the capacity of free workers?
A. Upon one of the questions put to me by the interrogators I agreed to that, fundamentally speaking, of course.
Q. Did you say that the food provided was Insufficient in the long run to maintain a high level of production?
A. I do not believe those words were used, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Did you say that you could not say whether or not the inmates had received sufficient food?
A. Yes, indeed, but I said it is relative.
Q. Did you say that you talked with a foreman in charge of the concentration camp detail who complained that the inmates suffered from injuries which were slow to heal because of vitamin deficiencies?
A. Yes, indeed, I said that.
Q. Did you say that you did not know how long a man could live on the food he got at the Golleschau Plant?
A. Yes, indeed I said I am not a physician. Therefore, I can't very well judge.
Q. Now, will you go ahead and make the explanation that you wanted to make? Excuse me. Let me ask you another question: Did you say that you visited the Portland factory two or three times each year?
A. I said I visited the factory two or three times during the period of time in which the inmates were used there.
Q. You didn't say two or three times yearly?
A. That might be possible. In any case, I meant that period of time during which they had inmates working there. Of course, it is possible I was referring to the year that I was there four or five times.
Q. Is it possible that you were there four or five times?
A. Not during the time when inmates were employed there; I would remember those visits very well.
Q. Did you say that the camp at Golleschau was guarded by Auschwitz guard personnel?
A. Yes.
Q. That is true, is it not?
A. Yes, I said that.
Q. Now, will you go ahead and make the explanation?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I was asked at the time if I thought that the food which the inmates were receiving at the time was sufficient. I answered I could not judge that because that was a matter which was more or less relative. I was thinking of the conditions at the time which I went through myself in a camp. In the camps where I spent a considerable time of my life myself a few inmates thought that the food was sufficient, while another group of the inmates thought that the food was not sufficient. May I continue? I was shown the circular letter of the defendant Baier, in English. I was to translate the contents of the letter - in particular, a few sentences - sentences which said approximately the following: That the attitude of the inmates with reference to the food, and the psychological conditions were not the same as those of a free worker. Thereupon, I was asked a question, or rather, the question was put to me that one could actually conclude that the food for an inmate was less than that for the free worker, and I answered that by saying yes. I was also asked another question. How long, according to my constitution, and in view of my heart ailment, I was in a position to do the work, physical work, and I answered that I didn't know that for certain because, after all, I was not a physician, I could not judge that. I cannot remember having heard anything about a relationship between the physical power of an inmate and the food of an inmate.
Q And do I understand your testimony to be, witness, that it is your opinion today that the inmates from Auschwitz who worked in your plant received better food and treatment than you have since you have been in American custody?
A. That depends on the circumstances under which I was in captivity. I was in various camps.
Q Better than that you received in Dachau, under American custody, is that your testimony? That is what you said Friday, isn't it?
A I said that the conditions under which I lived in Dachau would certainly compare with the conditions under which the inmates were living Court No. II, Case No. 4.in Golleschau.
Q They were not the same, is that right?
A Yes, at least as far as I can convince myself about the food they were getting.
Q How much do you weigh today, witness?
A 80 kilograms.
Q Is that all?
A Yes.
Q Do I understand your testimony to be that the Eastern German Construction Works under your supervision did not supply material directly to concentration camps?
A I don't know that. I don't believe that they delivered directly to concentration camps. I didn't look at all those purchase slips, or sales slips, which we had there. Apart from that, this construction material was probably purchases either by the construction management or the construction inspectorate. What they did with that material I simply don't know. Those construction men did all sorts of tasks.
Q It is quite possible that they did sell directly to the concentration camps without your knowing about it, or would you have known about it had that been the case?
A No, not necessarily. I am only thinking of the concentration camp Auschwitz here at the moment because I didn't know of any Concentration camp in Warthegau, and I didn't supervise the sales in Upper Silesia myself. It was up to the executive sales manager - that was the brick factory which was under the supervision of the Brick Distribution Agency.
Q And the Eastern German Construction Works may have supplied material to Auschwitz, is that your testimony?
A The possibility exists. Of course, I can't deny it, nor can I say yes to that.
Q Did you know an SS Untersturmfuehrer Dejace -- D-e-j-a-c-e?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A D-e-j-a-c-e -- now let me think for a minute... No, I don't recall ever having known such an IntersturmfUehrer.
Q Did you know an SS Standartenfuehrer Blobel -- B-l-o-b-e-l?
A Blobel - you mean -- B-l-a-u-d-e-l?
Q Blobel -- B-l-o-b-e-l.
A No, I can't recall the name of a Standartenfuehrer Blobel; I never heard that.
Q Did you know SS-Obersturmfuehrer Pudolf Hoess?
A The name was known to me; I didn't know him personally.
Q You never saw him, I suppose?
A No, I never did.
Q You don't know that the Eastern German Construction Works supplied building material to Auschwitz for the construction of experimental ovens for the exhumation of the exterminated Jews?
A No, that is not known to me.
Q I should like to show you the document, witness, to see if it refreshes your recollection. You don't know that Standartenfuehrer -Witness, did you know a Standartenfuehrer Globel -- G-l-o-b-e-l?
A No, I don't know him.
Q You didn't know that Globel had been given the task by Reichsfuehrer Himmler to exhume all mass graves and to cremate the corpses?
A No, that is not known to me.
Q And that he was given the task by Himmler to locate all mass graves in the entire Eastern territory, and to eliminate them?
A No, I didn't know that either.
Q Do you have any idea what this building material which Globel ordered from the Eastern German Building Material Works was to be used for?
A No, I didn't. I don't have any idea. Maybe I could give you an explanation on this, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Just a moment and I will let you explain. Do you have any aide about the -- Do you have any knowledge that would throw any light on the Court No, II, Case No. 4.use of what those ball mills for solid substances was to be used for, that was to be purchased from Schriever & Company?
It is referred to in the last paragraph.
A I didn't quite understand the question. Would you repeat it, please?
Q Do you have any knowledge which would help explain the use for which the ball mills for crushing solid substances was to be used for? Didn't you know that this was going to be used to crush the bones of the bodies that had been exhumed?
A No, I didn't know that. I know those ball mills because they are used in the manufacture of bricks. They are used in order to destroy and melt small pieces of bricks into powder, and to be able to sell that powder.
MR. ROBBINS: The document that I have just been referring to is NO-4467, and I will mark it as Prosecution Exhibit 626. I shall offer it at a later time, if the Tribunal please, an affidavit by Rudolf Hoess that the ball mills were used to crush the bones of the bodies of the inmates that had been killed in Auschwitz, and that Globel was in charge of exhuming the mass graves, and that he constructed experimental ovens in Auschwitz for the purpose of destroying the corpses.
Q Witness, did you have any conferences about the German Eastern Construction Works with Mummenthey, and Hohberg, and Volk, when they all took part in such conferences?
AAs long as Volk was my collaborator I did speak with him about certain matters in connection with the Eastern German Construction Works, yes. Later on I don't believe we had any current official discussions in any case. We didn't talk about anything in particular. As far as Mummenthey is concerned, I had very few official conversations with him. It depended more or less on the contact which would occur once in a while. When I met him, sometimes we discussed one or the other of the professional questions, - that was just on the side. Nor can I actually remember having discussed anything else with Dr. Hohberg than Court No. II, Case No. 4.organizational questions with reference to the plant itself.
I don't believe I talked about any official or organizational matters of the Eastern German Construction Works Company.
Q. Do you remember any joint conferences when Mummenthey, Bobermin, Hohberg, Volk, all took part?
A. I didn't quite get that. You are asking me about the common conferences which we had with those four men which you just mentioned, Mr. Prosecutor, is that it?
Q. I asked you if they took place.
A. I can't remember any such conference.
Q. Did you have any correspondence or conversations with Baier with regard to Jewish property in the East?
A. I did have correspondence with Baier, but I can't remember that we discussed things in connection with Jewish property. I would appreciate it if you world tell me in detail what it was all about, whereupon I will be able to make a statement, but in any case it wasn't a matter which dealt with the confiscation of Jewish property in the East in general.
Q. Did you talk to him about the utilization of claims which were existing on behalf of the German Eastern Construction Works, which were to be paid by the Jews to the Eastern German Construction Works?
A. According to my recollection I never had discussions of this sort with Baier.
Q. I should like to show you a document, Witness, and ask you if this helps your recollection. This has not been given an NO numberas yet. It is a memorandum for Pohl signed by Baier dated the 21st of March, 1944. I will mark it as Prosecution Exhibit 627. It is only one paragraph. Would you read it, Witness ?
A. "During my visit in Office W-II SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Bobermin informed me of the following: That the Ministerial advisor, Plodeck, the man in charge of the Trusteeship Administration, had submitted, or wants to submit a report to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Koppe in Cracow concerning the confiscation of Jewish property, or rather, concerning funds which the Jews had turned over to certain agencies.
SS agencies also are to be considered."
Q. And the last paragraph reads, "Please grant permission that I may request the report from the SS Economic Expert through the Chief of the Main Office for Information as soon as it is available." What did these claims from the Jews, what were these claims from the Jews, how did they arise?
A. Even looking at this note, which I did not write myself, I simply can't remember what it was all about. I don't know if this letter was drafted properly.
Q. You remember talking to Baier about this matter?
A. No, I don't at the moment.
Q. Going on to another matter, Witness, you don't want to leave us with the impression that you had no plants whatever in the Government General, do you?
A. I simply didn't understand the question. That I didn't have any plants in the Government General?
Q. Yes. I understood your testimony on Friday to be that you owned no plants in the Government General, supervised no plants.
A. That is not correct. I said, and that can be seen from one of the documents very clearly, which enterprises we had leased in the Government General.
Q. Which enterprises were in the Government General?
A. In the Government General we had the following plants: The cement works at Relowitz.
Q. What document are you referring to, Defense Book XVI?
A. It is in Book XVI, Exhibit No. 451.
Q. Go ahead.
A. And all the plants are enumerated there, the cement works.
Q. This is Document NO-1015?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And these are all in the Government General, are they not?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And were there any others under W-II or III/A/4 that were in the Government General?
A. No, those are probably all the plants.
C. Did you hear of Goering's decree in October, 1939, which provided that there must be removed from the territories of the Government General all raw materials, scrap materials, machines, etc., which are of use for the German war economy?
A. I can't remember that, I didn't receive that through official channels. It is possible that I heard about it though.
Q. You testified on Friday that you assumed that, you did not know that you had Jews working in the Portland Cement Company. Now, I ask you when you visited that plant, didn't you see the inmates working?
A. I was at the working place on one occasion for a very short period of time, and everytime I was there I was in the camp too. I was at the camp at a time when the inmates were working. Part of the inmates were sleeping in their beds and were resting. I left them alone. I didn't have them get up so that actually I didn't see them. I did see the camp administrator at the time, and the camp physician, and the kitchen, I also saw the personnel working there on one occasion.
Q. I ask you a very simple question. I have no idea how you answered it. Did you see inmates working when you visited the camp?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Couldn't you tell whether or not they were Jews?
A. I was at a distance of perhaps twenty to twenty-five meters. I am nearsighted, and I didn't wear my glasses at that time, not did I pay any particular attention consciously. I left the opportunity open, you see -- the possibility, I mean.
Q. My question was could you tell whether or not they were Jews?
A. Personally I couldn't tell, because the conditions as I mentioned them wouldn't permit me to do so.
Q. You were pretty certain that you had Jews working there, isn't that right; you didn't doubt it?
A. I couldn't recognize those Jews as being Jews. I said there could have been Jews amongst them.
Q. Could you tell whether there were non-Germans there?
A. I couldn't see that.
Q. You thought they were all Germans, is that right?
A. I didn't think so; no.
Q. Did you think any of them were Germans?
A. The camp commander with whom I spoke was a German certainly. He came from the Rhineland; he told me that.
O. Now, just answer my following question as simply as you can. Did you know that foreigners, non-German nationals, were working at your plant at Golleschau, did you know that for a fact?
A. For a fact I didn't know it. I could only assume it.
Q. Did you think that all of these people, all of these inmates had been tried and put in the concentration camp by legal process?
A. Not on the basis of a legal trial, but rather the basis of a so-called protective custody, order, which was a police procedure.
Q. You knew what a protective custody order consisted of, didn't you?
A. What it consisted of in detail I couldn't tell you because I never saw one. As far as I know about, and what I heard about a protective custody order or a protective custody proceeding, I knew it was a police proceeding.
Q. Did you ever hear about Jews and Poles being rounded up and put into concentration camps indiscriminately?
A. No. That Jews were brought to concentration camps due to race I didn't know nor did I hear it.
Q. What, if anything, did you have to do with armament production?
A. With the armament production, did you say?
Q. Yes.
A. Directly I had nothing to do with the armament production.
Q. What did you have to do with it indirectly?
A. The fireproof enterprises were certainly additional enterprises for the industry that worked in iron, the iron industry.
Q. Will you repeat that please?
A. The enterprises for fireproof products were supply plants for the industry that worked with iron. They supplied the so-called form stones and tube stones. They are those where the liquid iron is poured into in order to give it a certain shape. They are moulds, stone moulds.
Q. Did those have anything to do with concentration camps?
A. No, no.
Q. Concentration-camp labor wasn't used?
A. No.
Q. Are there any other indirect connections which you had with the armament program?
A. Only insofar, of course, as cement and other construction material was necessary for the establishment of armament plants, the same as it applied to a barn or a private building.
Q. And that is all, that is all that you have to say about that?
A. Yes, that is all I have to say about it.
Q. Did the concentration camps have anything to do with this last phase that you have just spoken of?
A. You are talking about the armament industry and the supplying of the armament industry?
Q. Your answer was what?
A. No, the concentration camp had nothing to do with the armament industry in this connection.
Q. Have you ever seen your personnel file, witness, your SS personnel file?
A. I don't think so.
Q. You have never seen a statement in your personnel file signed by Pohl where he says, "Bobermin has gained a special merit in the occasion of carrying out armament tasks in connection with the concentration camps"?
A. No, I did not read that.
Q. What do you think that Pohl could be referring to here?
A. I don't know that; it is absolutely new to me.
Q. It is not true. Is that right? Pohl is mistaken.
A. I told you in what connection I used the concentration camp inmate labor, and I also told you what my relationship was to the armament industry. That is all. The only way I can explain the thing is that this was probably a proposal for a promotion, and that Herr Pohl sort of colored my qualifications in order to emphasize the importance of my activity. I can only tell you what I did and what the relationships were.
Q. It is true, isn't it, witness, that the Portland Cement Factory, Golleschau, was the largest enterprise in East Silesia?
A. It was not the largest cement factory; it was a medium-sized cement factory. According to my recollection, there were at least two cement factories that were larger than the one at Golleschau -- possibly even three.
Q. What were those?
A. At the moment I cannot remember their names. I only know that the cement plants which were part of the Eastern German Chemical Plants were larger and I believe that the cement plant of Wisoka was larger also.
Q. What was their yearly capacity for cement?
A. The potential capacity of the plant was two hundred forty thousand tons. The union output was approximately two hundred fourteen thousand tons or two hundred ten thousand tons; the actual output - what was actually produced in a year - was, according to my recollection, between a hundred and forty thousand and a hundred and sixty thousand tons.
Q. And that is for the Portland Company?
A. Yes, that is the Portland Cement Factory at Golleschau.
Q. That is a bigger production than any other concrete works in East Silesia, is it not? Two hundred forty thousand tons?
A. No, not at all. I told you already that I can also remember the name of another factory, for instance, the Schakowa, which was part of the Hermann Goering Works, which was also larger.
Q. Would you say it was the second or third largest?
A. I don't think it was the second largest - possibly the third or fourth largest factory, yes. That, however, only refers to the seven East Upper Silesia factories. It is possible that in the Oppeln plants - the capacity of which I don't know -- there is a larger plant also.
Q. And it is your testimony that none of the products of none of your industries ever came into the Reich?
A. Would you repeat, please?
Q. The products of hone of your industries ever came into the Reich?
A. Do you mean generally speaking or are you referring only to the Eastern German Construction Material Company?
Q. I am talking about all of your companies.
A. The cement plant at Golleschau surely also exported into the Reich - old Reich territory - because the so-called District Upper Silesia consisted of Germany proper and the former Polish area, and at the time there were no limits whatsoever about the delivery.
It is also possible that cement was sent to the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia, but even the supplying of cement had been restricted according to areas. It was only that the transportation limits were farther than that for brick products.
Q. What percentage of the production went into the Reich?
A. I couldn't tell you that; I don't know that.
Q. A very large amount, wouldn't you say?
A. I don't know the figure at all; therefore, I couldn't tell you if the percentage was rather high or not. That was taken care of by the cement syndicate.
Q. You have been telling us about various international treaties. Did you ever hear of the Hague Convention of Land Warfare?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the provision that prohibits an occupying power from using the products of the country which it is occupying for any purpose other than to support the occupying army?
A. Yes, indeed; I have read that regulation now.
Q. You didn't know it when you were operating in the East, is that right?
A. At the time I did not deal with such questions because the area within which those plants were was part of the German Reich, according to my idea and according to the German idea of law.
Q. Witness, your witness Winkler testified at great length that the reason that the Jews and Poles were not paid for their property was that the war was still on; the war was still on and the occupying army was in the field, and it wasn't possible for this country to be annexed, was it?
A. I didn't get that question; it was rather long.
Q. Well, it is a legal question that we need not argue here. Did you ever hear of a concentration camp in Hungary?
A. When I was in Hungary, I only heard that the Hungarian government had something similar to a concentration camp -- or was alleged to have installed something similar to a concentration camp?
Q. Is that all you heard about concentration camps in Hungary?
A. About concentration camps, yes.
Q. What did you hear about labor camps?
A. Prior to the establishment of the trusteeship administration, it was planned to install and establish a labor camp near the Manfred Weiss Works. That labor camp, however, was never completed, nor was it ever occupied.
Q. Are you telling us that there were no labor camps in Hungary?
A. That I couldn't tell you. In any case, under my competency there were none.
Q. I am just asking you what existed there in the first place, Were there labor camps in Hungary?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Did you hear about deportations of Hungarians to the Reich?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Did you hear about deportations of Hungarians to Poland?
A. No. At the time they only spoke about it, and by that I mean the population in Hungary was talking about it. Officially, I never did find out anything, that the entire Hungarian nation was to be fully activated for war purposes. Every Hungarian was to become a soldier, as far as he could, and the Jewish citizens were to be employed in the armament industry. Hungarians told me that.
Q. They didn't tell you, did they, that four or five hundred Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz and gassed there?
A. No, they did not.
Q. I want to discuss, in that connection, a document that you touched on this morning, and that is in Book 12, NO-2128-A. It is Exhibit 331, on page 12. Do you have it? Do you have it?
A. No, I don't have it. I would appreciate it if my defense counsel would give me that document.
Q. It is also in Book 18. Do you have Book 18 there?
A. Yes.
Q. It is on page 88 in the German text.
A. Yes, indeed; I found it now. Thank you.
Q. Now, these are the regulations governing the SS Economic Administrator. Will you--- First let me ask you this, witness. You heard your counsel, Dr. Gawlik, testify this morning that these regulations didn't apply to you, is that correct?
A. Those regulations only referred to me in a "mental sense".
Q. In a what?
A. I mean, according to their sense. That means that only those tasks which occurred in my office were dealt with under those regulations.
Q. Didn't Pohl tell you when you took the job as SS-Wirtschafter that these regulations applied to you?
A. When I was sent to Hungary, there was no SS-Economist.
Q. Now, just answer my question. Did Pohl tell you that these applied to you?
A. It was said that those regulations were to he applied according to their sense.
Q. Did you tell Dr. Gawlik that these did not apply to you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. As a matter of fact, Pohl told you specifically that they did apply to you, didn't he?
A. I already told you that according to their sense, yes, as far as the tasks were concerned, I mean, that came under our jurisdiction.
Q. So there won't be any doubt about that, I would like to show you a document and see if you will make the matter absolutely clear. This is NO-3896. This is Pohl's order dated the 14th of April, 1944, creating the office of SS-Wirtschafter, is it not?
A Yes, indeed. It is stated there exactly as I said before.
Q. It is stated there explicitly that these orders applied and it doesn't say anything about the sense of the order, does it? It says they apply.
A It is stated there in the third last line, "accordingly applied to the SS Economic administrator on the staff of the higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary." That is exactly the way I stated it.
Q. I think the record will show how you stated it. I would like to show you another document and ask you --Excuse me. The document I have just shown you is NO-3986, and I will mark it as Prosecution Exhibit 628.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 627, isn't it?
MR. ROBBINS: 627 is the Baier memorandum to Pohl about the Jewish claims that I haven't a copy of as yet.
DR. GAWLIK (attorney for Defendant Bobermin): Your Honor, I would like to object to the document which was introduced before. At the moment I simply can't tell if the translation is correct. As far as I can see at the moment, I believe that the words "according to their sense" are missing in the translation, because the words "according to the sense" are decisive.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Which document?
DR. GAWLIK:NO-3986, Prosecution Exhibit 628, Your Honor. "According to the sense" means "as such would definitely apply." "Only at certain times it applies, but not at all times." That is the German meaning of the words, "according to their sense." As far as I can tell at the moment, this term is missing, Mr. President. I am afraid it is missing.
MR. ROBBINS: Does the translator have a German copy?
INTERPRETER SIMHA: Yes, we do, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: Perhaps it can be cleared up if the translator read the German and translated it into English.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, what paragraph?
MR. ROBBINS: It is the third paragraph of Exhibit 628.
INTERPRETER SIMHA: Mr. Robbins, "accordingly apply to the SS Economic Administrator, etc.," here in German it says, "Sinngemaess." An accurate translation of this would be, "according to their sense."
THE PRESIDENT: It means "wherever applicable." "Wherever they apply."
INTERPRETER SIMHA: "Wherever they apply. "
MR. ROBBINS: "Wherever they apply."
THE PRESIDENT: We have written that in on the English translation, Dr. Gawlik.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you, Your Honor.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) Witness, let me show you Document NO-4333and ask you if you can identify this. I will mark this document as Exhibit 629 for identification. Do you know this document, Witness?
A. I do not know the original document. It is possible that a copy was later on sent to my files also when I became an SS economist.
I would like to leave this possibility open.
Q. You know that this is the general order that Himmler gave to Pohl which order was effectuated by the document in Book XII and XVIII, namely 2128A.
A. This is apparently the basic order of Himmler according to which the orders of execution were releases or issued by Pohl, I believe that too.
Q. Will you look at Pohl's order?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Robbins, let me ask one question. Witness weren't you appointed to the Office of Economic Administrator in the East on the basis of this order issued by Himmler on the 13th of June, 1942?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I never was the SS Economist in the East. I was only the SS Economist in Hungary.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, in Hungary, weren't you appointed on the basis of this order?
THE WITNESS: On the basis of this order? Well, let's see. This order is about two years older, as such, but, of course, this was the basic order for the establishment of SS Economists in the occupied territories.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And on the authority of this order, Pohl appointed you, did he not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I was appointed on the basis of this order, actually as the first economist in an unoccupied state.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And by Pohl?
THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, that is -- well, let's see. I believe Himmler himself had to do that, Himmler upon Pohl's suggestion. I couldn't tell you that for certain, though.
THE PRESIDENT: That is what it says here.