A. Yes I can read that here.
Q. Is that correct?
A. It probably was handled in such a manner that commissioners of the General Trustee, the work groups leaders, contacted the district directors, the Landraete and asked them just what was happening to the brick works in the area.
Q. I don't think you understood my question. When he says, "We drove around the countryside looking for jewish brick works," whom does he mean; who did that?
A. I have already stated that neither Dr. Volk nor I did that because at that period of time both of us were in Berlin. It must have been the central work managers who worked together with the district.
Q. Someone subordinate to your office, was in not, to 11/A/4?
A. It belonged to the main department 11/A/4, that is correct.
Q. Did I understand you to say that none of the brick plant in Poland under your supervision were demolished, destroyed?
A. None of them were destroyed.
Q. None at all?
A. No, that wan't the purpose of our work at all.
Q. Will you look on Page 5 of this document, the second paragraph. It says that all production plants could not be put into operation because part of them were only fit for demolition.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Isn't it true that they were demolished?
A. No, It isn't shown by that at all. It is only shown here that they were in such a bad condition that they could only be described as being in a half demolished state, but it does not say that they were acttually demolished.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, do you see the disadvantage the defense is laboring under? You say that you marked this for identification, and then you proceed to cross-examine on it in detail as if it had been admitted in evidence. German counsel have no copies of it, and are treating it as an admitted exhibit.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well, your Honor, I shall not ask more questions on this.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) Witness, how many ghettos did you know about in the Warthegau?
A. I can't give you. any figure. I knew that there were ghettos in the Warthegau, Especially the ghetto of Litzmannstadt was well-known.
Q. That is not the only one you knew about?
A. No, in the south of Warthegau there were also so-called Jewish living areas, settlement areas.
Q. About how many ghettos did you know about?
A. I can't give you any exact figure at all.
Q. Give me approximate figure then.
A. I can't give you any approximate figure, because this was a question which did not concern me directly. I can only tell you what I heard at the time. In this connection I can only say that the ghetto, the existence of the ghetto at Letzmannstadt (Lodz was well know, and that in the south of the Warthegau several villages were inhabited by Jews exclusively. Just how many there were and what villages these were I can't tell you. However, I can tell you that at Posen there were no ghettos.
Q. Well, altogether would you say five hundred ghettos?
A. I would like to, but I can't give you any exact figure. For the Warthegau this figure seems to be greatly exaggerated.
Q Did you have Jewish workers working in your plants under the-
A In part yes, as craftsmen. There were certain areas in the East where there were only Jewish craftsmen.
Q They were employed in the Eastern German Construction Works?
A Yes, they were also with the stern German Construction Material Company. In the year 1940 and later on this enterprise had Jewish craftsmen.
Q And you used Jewish labor from the Lodz Chetto?
A No.
Q You mean to tell us that you didn't use any Jews in Litzmannstadt?
A No, this was impossible at the plants at Litzmanstadt, and we didn't want it there because we had an adequate number of german craftsmen.
Q Well, you had two work centers in Litzmannstadt, and Litzmannstadt was one of the five main work centers?
AAt Litzmannstadt, before that time, we used to have one working center, and this was later on dissolved.
Q There was a Litzmannstadt Plant I and Litzmannstadt Plant II, were there not?
A These are two different plants. These are two brick works. However, they are not two work centers.
Q Well, let's start all over again. Did you use any Jews at all in the area in Litzmannstadt?
A I don't know just what you assume the area of Litzmannstadt to be. I stated that I did not employ any Jews from the Ghetto at Litzmannstadt. I don't know anything about it.
Q Did you employ any Jews in the Litzmannstadt plant, or work?
A I don't know anything about that either. I have already stated that the Eastern German Construction Material Company employed Jews as workers.
Q Well, they employed them in Litzmannstadt too, didn't they?
A No, I don't know anything with regard to Litzmannstadt.
Q Well, you assume that they did, didn't you, without knowing precisely?
A No, I don't think so, after all, the Ghetto at Litzmannstadt in particular was a closed Ghetto. The other ghettoes, as far as I saw them, did not have a fence around them at all.
Q Is it your testimony that now where in any of your plants did you use ghetto labor?
A Not in the form that you have mentioned it just now.
Q All right, let me mention it in another form. Is it your testimony that at no time in any of your plants dud you use labor from Jewish ghettoes?
A I have already answered that in the affirmative because, after all, the Jews lived in the ghetto, however, they received a pass from the police which permitted them to leave the ghetto and go to their place of work. Therefore, they were not supervised at the plant and they were treated just like all other workers.
Q They were treated just like other workers! Is that what you want us to believe?
A. Yes.
Q You knew that all over Poland, don't you, that the Jews had to live in the ghetto, had to register, and had to wear the yellow star?
A Yes, I know that.
Q Do you know of any inmates at all, anyone who worked in your industry at Golleschau who is alive today?
A I don't know any inmates personally.
Q You know, very well, don't you, that every inmate that ever worked in your plant was either killed in the plant or went up the chimney later in Auschwitz.
You know that don't you?
A No, I don't know that.
Q You told us that you knew that when inmates in your plant at Golleschau became unfit for work they were sent back to Auschwitz? You knew about that didn't you?
A Yes.
Q You didn't know they were going to be gassed though?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q I suppose at no time did you know that the Jews and the inmates at Golleschau begged not to be sent back to Warsaw. Did you know that? Back to Auschwitz -- You know that, didn't you, that they begged not to be sent back to Auschwitz?
A I don't know that. I only stated-- and I also stated that in the course of my examination--that many inmates told me that they liked it here, and they would prefer to remain in a smaller labor camp much rather than remain in the big camp at Auschwitz.
Q Do you remember being interrogated on the 18th of December in Nuernberg by Mr. Wolff?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember telling him that you remembered that prisoners would beg to be kept and work at Golleschau and not to be sent back to Auschwitz?
A I stated to Mr. Wolff that inmates--not all inmates but some of them--stated that they would like to remain at Golleschau and work at Golleschau. They liked that much better than the camp at Auschwitz.
Q Just answer my question. Did you make this statement, that you remembered inmates begging not to be sent back to Auschwitz? Did you make it or not?
A No, I did not make a statement in that form.
Q You knew SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Schneider of the "W" offices, don't you?
A The notary, Dr. Schneider, yes, I know him.
Q You met him, had a conversation with him in Budapest, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell Dr. Schneider in that conversation that you had heard about inmates being mistreated in Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Did you tell that you learned that inmates were killed by concentration camp guards?
A No.
Q Did you tell him that you had learned that inmates were gassed in Auschwitz when they could no longer be used for work in Golleschau?
A No.
Q You didn't tell him these things either at Budapest or anywhere else/ Is that your testimony?
A Yes. I didn't tell him that there nor any other place.
Q Did you talk to Schneider at all about Auschwitz?
A I can't recall ever having talked to him about it. I don't think so.
Q Did you talk to him about any concentration-camp matter?
A I don't think so.
Q How often did you visit the garrison at Lublin?
A On two occasions.
Q When was that?
A That was early in 1943, and once, as far as I can recall-but I just passed by there on that occasion--in the middle of 1943.
Q Both times in the middle of 1943?
A No; once it was in the beginning of 1943, and the second time it must just have been the middle of 1943.
Q Did the produce from any of your firms go to the garrison at Lublin?
A I can't say that with certainty. In any case, I did not conclude purchasing contracts and it is quite possible that the cement factory at Gebewitz furnished cement for that garrison.
Q That was under your supervision, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q And you obtained funds from the garrison at Lublin?
A Yes.
Q You produced around six million bricks per year, did you not in your industries?
A No, in the first year we had six hundred million bricks, and, later on, the production decreased.
Q And I do understand from your testimony that none of these bricks were used by the SS?
A No. Of course, the SS also purchased some of these bricks, they probably purchased them directly or they obtained them through the raw material trade.
Q Do you remember that you testified on direct examination that you didn't produce anything for the SS?
A I didn't say that. I stated that the plants manufactured for the general construction material market. That means that, of course, the SS also could purchase some of these products.
Q I think the testimony will show-the transcript will show-exactly what you said on that. Well, as a matter of fact, the SS was the biggest consumer of the products, was it not?
A I don't think so. I don't believe that at all.
Q Wasn't it the biggest consumer?
A I don't think so.
Q What organization used more of your products than the SS?
A For example, the agencies of the Wehrmacht would purchase a lot of these items.
Q It is your testimony that the Wehrmacht used more of your products in Poland than the SS did, is that right?
A I didn't say one thing nor the other, Mr. Prosecutor. I stated-
Q Well, suppose you say one thing or the other. Let's stop trying to be clever about this, and just tell us what you know about it. Now, who was the biggest consumer of your products? It was the SS, wasn't it?
A I dispute that statement.
Q Well, who was?
A I can't tell that to you in detail. I have already stated that agencies of the Wehrmacht--and I also furnished material to the construction works. After all, we can't say that from the individual purchasing contract, and I wasn't in the sales department at all.
Q Then just say you don't know, is that right?
A I have stated that I don't know that the SS had been the main consumer of my products.
Q Did Amtsgruppe C use any of your products?
A Certainly the construction management must have bought some bricks which had been manufactured by my enterprises.
AAnd you knew quite well that your products were going into the construction of concentration camps, didn't you?
A I didn't know that. If any construction work was carried out in a concentration camp, then probably construction material was purchased in order to do that, and then, of course, bricks which had been manufactured by my plants also must have been purchased. However, whenever they purchased this they would not say "We now need a hundred thousand bricks for a concentration camp construction."
Q Well, you knew Amtsgruppe C was constructing concentration camps, in the Warthegau and in the government General, didn't you?
A I can't recall any concentration camp having existed in the Warthegau.
Q Well how about the Government general?
A In the Government General I only leased several bricks works in 1943, and these products were also turned over to the general construction material market.
Q Well, excuse me--you are not answering my question at all. You knew that Amtsgruppe C was constructing concentration camps in the Government General, didn't you? Yes or no.
A I can' say whether concentration camps were established by Amtsgruppe C in the Government General.
Q Do you know whether any of these products were sent back to Germany?
AAlready, because of transportation difficulties, it was impossible to transport any of the bricks to the West. I only can recall one individual case: here, two or three truck-loads of bricks were brought into the Reich.
Q You want us to believe that this is all of the material all of the production of your plants that you ever sent back to the Reich, is that right? That is all?
A I have stated--and I told you just what I know.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess, Mr. Robbins, until one forty-five.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION.
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, August 11, 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: I believe Dr. Hoffman has a question for the Tribunal.
DR. HOFFMAN: (Attorney for the Defendant Scheide): Your Honor, I have a request to make of the Tribunal. We usually received the transcripts in German of what was going on in the Tribunal. Last time we received the transcripts they were dated the 28th of July. Therefore, two weeks' records are missing. If Your Honors could possibly see to it that we receive those transcripts a little bit earlier, we would appreciate it quite a bit for it is difficult for us to work without the transcripts on time.
THE PRESIDENT: I'll do my best. I'll do what I can. I can't translate them myself, you know, I'll have to get somebody to do it.
HANS BOBERMIN - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, you state that you recall being interrogated on the 7th of December last year. Do you also remember being interrogated on the 19th of December?
A. I was only examined on three occasions, and they were on two consecutive days. I can't tell now whether it was the 7th and 8th or the 17th and 18th. I would assume it was on the latter dates.
Q. Do you recall that you were under oath when you were interrogated?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Did you tell the interrogator on those occasions that the food received by the inmates at Golleschau Portland Cement Company for the inmate laborers was considerably less than that given to the free workers generally?
A. I answered the following at the time. I was shown a circular -
Q. Excuse me. Would you answer the question and then explain it? Did you make that statement?
A. I can't answer your question either with "yes," or "no" because the word, "considerably less," was not used. Probably only "less". I would appreciate it if you would give me the opportunity now to explain how this whole thing came about.
Q. Let me ask you a few more questions and then I will. Did you also say that you noticed that the labor production of the production of the concentration camp inmates was about 70% of the capacity of free workers?
A. Upon one of the questions put to me by the interrogators I agreed to that, fundamentally speaking, of course.
Q. Did you say that the food provided was Insufficient in the long run to maintain a high level of production?
A. I do not believe those words were used, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Did you say that you could not say whether or not the inmates had received sufficient food?
A. Yes, indeed, but I said it is relative.
Q. Did you say that you talked with a foreman in charge of the concentration camp detail who complained that the inmates suffered from injuries which were slow to heal because of vitamin deficiencies?
A. Yes, indeed, I said that.
Q. Did you say that you did not know how long a man could live on the food he got at the Golleschau Plant?
A. Yes, indeed I said I am not a physician. Therefore, I can't very well judge.
Q. Now, will you go ahead and make the explanation that you wanted to make? Excuse me. Let me ask you another question: Did you say that you visited the Portland factory two or three times each year?
A. I said I visited the factory two or three times during the period of time in which the inmates were used there.
Q. You didn't say two or three times yearly?
A. That might be possible. In any case, I meant that period of time during which they had inmates working there. Of course, it is possible I was referring to the year that I was there four or five times.
Q. Is it possible that you were there four or five times?
A. Not during the time when inmates were employed there; I would remember those visits very well.
Q. Did you say that the camp at Golleschau was guarded by Auschwitz guard personnel?
A. Yes.
Q. That is true, is it not?
A. Yes, I said that.
Q. Now, will you go ahead and make the explanation?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I was asked at the time if I thought that the food which the inmates were receiving at the time was sufficient. I answered I could not judge that because that was a matter which was more or less relative. I was thinking of the conditions at the time which I went through myself in a camp. In the camps where I spent a considerable time of my life myself a few inmates thought that the food was sufficient, while another group of the inmates thought that the food was not sufficient. May I continue? I was shown the circular letter of the defendant Baier, in English. I was to translate the contents of the letter - in particular, a few sentences - sentences which said approximately the following: That the attitude of the inmates with reference to the food, and the psychological conditions were not the same as those of a free worker. Thereupon, I was asked a question, or rather, the question was put to me that one could actually conclude that the food for an inmate was less than that for the free worker, and I answered that by saying yes. I was also asked another question. How long, according to my constitution, and in view of my heart ailment, I was in a position to do the work, physical work, and I answered that I didn't know that for certain because, after all, I was not a physician, I could not judge that. I cannot remember having heard anything about a relationship between the physical power of an inmate and the food of an inmate.
Q And do I understand your testimony to be, witness, that it is your opinion today that the inmates from Auschwitz who worked in your plant received better food and treatment than you have since you have been in American custody?
A. That depends on the circumstances under which I was in captivity. I was in various camps.
Q Better than that you received in Dachau, under American custody, is that your testimony? That is what you said Friday, isn't it?
A I said that the conditions under which I lived in Dachau would certainly compare with the conditions under which the inmates were living Court No. II, Case No. 4.in Golleschau.
Q They were not the same, is that right?
A Yes, at least as far as I can convince myself about the food they were getting.
Q How much do you weigh today, witness?
A 80 kilograms.
Q Is that all?
A Yes.
Q Do I understand your testimony to be that the Eastern German Construction Works under your supervision did not supply material directly to concentration camps?
A I don't know that. I don't believe that they delivered directly to concentration camps. I didn't look at all those purchase slips, or sales slips, which we had there. Apart from that, this construction material was probably purchases either by the construction management or the construction inspectorate. What they did with that material I simply don't know. Those construction men did all sorts of tasks.
Q It is quite possible that they did sell directly to the concentration camps without your knowing about it, or would you have known about it had that been the case?
A No, not necessarily. I am only thinking of the concentration camp Auschwitz here at the moment because I didn't know of any Concentration camp in Warthegau, and I didn't supervise the sales in Upper Silesia myself. It was up to the executive sales manager - that was the brick factory which was under the supervision of the Brick Distribution Agency.
Q And the Eastern German Construction Works may have supplied material to Auschwitz, is that your testimony?
A The possibility exists. Of course, I can't deny it, nor can I say yes to that.
Q Did you know an SS Untersturmfuehrer Dejace -- D-e-j-a-c-e?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A D-e-j-a-c-e -- now let me think for a minute... No, I don't recall ever having known such an IntersturmfUehrer.
Q Did you know an SS Standartenfuehrer Blobel -- B-l-o-b-e-l?
A Blobel - you mean -- B-l-a-u-d-e-l?
Q Blobel -- B-l-o-b-e-l.
A No, I can't recall the name of a Standartenfuehrer Blobel; I never heard that.
Q Did you know SS-Obersturmfuehrer Pudolf Hoess?
A The name was known to me; I didn't know him personally.
Q You never saw him, I suppose?
A No, I never did.
Q You don't know that the Eastern German Construction Works supplied building material to Auschwitz for the construction of experimental ovens for the exhumation of the exterminated Jews?
A No, that is not known to me.
Q I should like to show you the document, witness, to see if it refreshes your recollection. You don't know that Standartenfuehrer -Witness, did you know a Standartenfuehrer Globel -- G-l-o-b-e-l?
A No, I don't know him.
Q You didn't know that Globel had been given the task by Reichsfuehrer Himmler to exhume all mass graves and to cremate the corpses?
A No, that is not known to me.
Q And that he was given the task by Himmler to locate all mass graves in the entire Eastern territory, and to eliminate them?
A No, I didn't know that either.
Q Do you have any idea what this building material which Globel ordered from the Eastern German Building Material Works was to be used for?
A No, I didn't. I don't have any idea. Maybe I could give you an explanation on this, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Just a moment and I will let you explain. Do you have any aide about the -- Do you have any knowledge that would throw any light on the Court No, II, Case No. 4.use of what those ball mills for solid substances was to be used for, that was to be purchased from Schriever & Company?
It is referred to in the last paragraph.
A I didn't quite understand the question. Would you repeat it, please?
Q Do you have any knowledge which would help explain the use for which the ball mills for crushing solid substances was to be used for? Didn't you know that this was going to be used to crush the bones of the bodies that had been exhumed?
A No, I didn't know that. I know those ball mills because they are used in the manufacture of bricks. They are used in order to destroy and melt small pieces of bricks into powder, and to be able to sell that powder.
MR. ROBBINS: The document that I have just been referring to is NO-4467, and I will mark it as Prosecution Exhibit 626. I shall offer it at a later time, if the Tribunal please, an affidavit by Rudolf Hoess that the ball mills were used to crush the bones of the bodies of the inmates that had been killed in Auschwitz, and that Globel was in charge of exhuming the mass graves, and that he constructed experimental ovens in Auschwitz for the purpose of destroying the corpses.
Q Witness, did you have any conferences about the German Eastern Construction Works with Mummenthey, and Hohberg, and Volk, when they all took part in such conferences?
AAs long as Volk was my collaborator I did speak with him about certain matters in connection with the Eastern German Construction Works, yes. Later on I don't believe we had any current official discussions in any case. We didn't talk about anything in particular. As far as Mummenthey is concerned, I had very few official conversations with him. It depended more or less on the contact which would occur once in a while. When I met him, sometimes we discussed one or the other of the professional questions, - that was just on the side. Nor can I actually remember having discussed anything else with Dr. Hohberg than Court No. II, Case No. 4.organizational questions with reference to the plant itself.
I don't believe I talked about any official or organizational matters of the Eastern German Construction Works Company.
Q. Do you remember any joint conferences when Mummenthey, Bobermin, Hohberg, Volk, all took part?
A. I didn't quite get that. You are asking me about the common conferences which we had with those four men which you just mentioned, Mr. Prosecutor, is that it?
Q. I asked you if they took place.
A. I can't remember any such conference.
Q. Did you have any correspondence or conversations with Baier with regard to Jewish property in the East?
A. I did have correspondence with Baier, but I can't remember that we discussed things in connection with Jewish property. I would appreciate it if you world tell me in detail what it was all about, whereupon I will be able to make a statement, but in any case it wasn't a matter which dealt with the confiscation of Jewish property in the East in general.
Q. Did you talk to him about the utilization of claims which were existing on behalf of the German Eastern Construction Works, which were to be paid by the Jews to the Eastern German Construction Works?
A. According to my recollection I never had discussions of this sort with Baier.
Q. I should like to show you a document, Witness, and ask you if this helps your recollection. This has not been given an NO numberas yet. It is a memorandum for Pohl signed by Baier dated the 21st of March, 1944. I will mark it as Prosecution Exhibit 627. It is only one paragraph. Would you read it, Witness ?
A. "During my visit in Office W-II SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Bobermin informed me of the following: That the Ministerial advisor, Plodeck, the man in charge of the Trusteeship Administration, had submitted, or wants to submit a report to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Koppe in Cracow concerning the confiscation of Jewish property, or rather, concerning funds which the Jews had turned over to certain agencies.
SS agencies also are to be considered."
Q. And the last paragraph reads, "Please grant permission that I may request the report from the SS Economic Expert through the Chief of the Main Office for Information as soon as it is available." What did these claims from the Jews, what were these claims from the Jews, how did they arise?
A. Even looking at this note, which I did not write myself, I simply can't remember what it was all about. I don't know if this letter was drafted properly.
Q. You remember talking to Baier about this matter?
A. No, I don't at the moment.
Q. Going on to another matter, Witness, you don't want to leave us with the impression that you had no plants whatever in the Government General, do you?
A. I simply didn't understand the question. That I didn't have any plants in the Government General?
Q. Yes. I understood your testimony on Friday to be that you owned no plants in the Government General, supervised no plants.
A. That is not correct. I said, and that can be seen from one of the documents very clearly, which enterprises we had leased in the Government General.
Q. Which enterprises were in the Government General?
A. In the Government General we had the following plants: The cement works at Relowitz.
Q. What document are you referring to, Defense Book XVI?
A. It is in Book XVI, Exhibit No. 451.
Q. Go ahead.
A. And all the plants are enumerated there, the cement works.
Q. This is Document NO-1015?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And these are all in the Government General, are they not?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And were there any others under W-II or III/A/4 that were in the Government General?
A. No, those are probably all the plants.
C. Did you hear of Goering's decree in October, 1939, which provided that there must be removed from the territories of the Government General all raw materials, scrap materials, machines, etc., which are of use for the German war economy?
A. I can't remember that, I didn't receive that through official channels. It is possible that I heard about it though.
Q. You testified on Friday that you assumed that, you did not know that you had Jews working in the Portland Cement Company. Now, I ask you when you visited that plant, didn't you see the inmates working?
A. I was at the working place on one occasion for a very short period of time, and everytime I was there I was in the camp too. I was at the camp at a time when the inmates were working. Part of the inmates were sleeping in their beds and were resting. I left them alone. I didn't have them get up so that actually I didn't see them. I did see the camp administrator at the time, and the camp physician, and the kitchen, I also saw the personnel working there on one occasion.
Q. I ask you a very simple question. I have no idea how you answered it. Did you see inmates working when you visited the camp?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Couldn't you tell whether or not they were Jews?
A. I was at a distance of perhaps twenty to twenty-five meters. I am nearsighted, and I didn't wear my glasses at that time, not did I pay any particular attention consciously. I left the opportunity open, you see -- the possibility, I mean.
Q. My question was could you tell whether or not they were Jews?
A. Personally I couldn't tell, because the conditions as I mentioned them wouldn't permit me to do so.