Q What is possible?
A It is possible that they would come back.
Q You thought that they would come back, is that right?
A I considered that to be quite possible.
Q And you thought the plants would be given back to them, is that what you want us to believe?
A No, I did not say that.
Q They wouldn't be given back to them, is that right?
A No, in my examination and my affidavit I have stated that was not my belief.
Q You were pretty sure they wouldn't get their property back, isn't that right?
A Yes, I considered that to be quite probable.
Q Well, you considered it to be absolutely certain, didn't you? You knew they wouldn't get the brick works back?
A Well, that would have depended on each individual case.
Q You knew that most of the property wouldn't go back to the original owners, didn't you, the majority of it?
A I can't say anything about the bigger industries, but I did feel that the majority of the people would not regain their property. However, that has nothing to do with the question of compensation.
Q You didn't think that any of the Jews would get back their property, did you?
A I believed that only a very few brick works were owned by Jews.
Q That doesn't answer my question. Did you think the Jewish owners of the brick works would ever get back any of their property?
A I did not believe they would have been treated differently than the other owners.
Q You didn't see from the instructions you received and that you issued that so-called "Racial Germans" were to be treated differently from Jews, is that what you want us to believe? The Jews got the same treatment as the Racial Germans?
A You mean as workers?
Q No, I mean as owners of the plants.
A No, well, they had to be treated by, insofar as all the plants which were owned, 100% by German Nationals were not seized.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, remember that you are not working entirely through interpretation, and you are crowding the interpreters a little bit.
MR. ROBBINS: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q They didn't receive the same treatment as Racial Germans as workers in the plants either, did they?
A Well they were treated exactly alike in my enterprises.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, did you get an answer to that previous question as to whether a Jewish owner was treated the same as a Racial German?
MR. ROBBINS: I think he said they were not. Your answer was that they were not, is that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes, after all, we were not interested in enterprises owned by Racial Germans and their plants were not seized. I myself was not interested in other owners either. After all, I was only connected with the plants.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q When did you first find out that many of the owners of these plants had been killed?
A I never heard about that.
Q You haven't heard about it even today, have you?
A I haven't heard up to date that any of these owners were actually killed.
Q You said you thought most of them fled. What did you think they were fleeing from?
A I didn't understand your question.
Q You knew that these owners were fleeing from the SS, didn't you, from the Einsatzgruppen?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q You knew they were fleeing from the criminal occupation of Poland, didn't you, from the treatment that the Germans were giving the Poles?
A I didn't hear anything about the Poles being mistreated by the Germans during the time of occupation.
Q Thank you very much. I want that definitely in the record. You never heard at any time about any mistreatment by Germans of the Poles at any time you were in Poland, is that what you want us to believe?
A Here I am referring to the newly annexed German territories.
Q That is exactly what we are talking about.
THE PRESIDENT: The translator has advised me that it isn't you, Mr. Robbins, but the witness. Will you please pause before answering the question so that the question can be translated into German before you answer? Just pause a few seconds.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q You never heard of any of Hans Frank's statements that he made to newspaper reporters in February 1940 when he was asked about von Neurath's posters announcing the execution of Czech students. And Hans Frank said, "If I were to order posters being put up about every 7 Poles who were shot there wouldn't be enough force in Poland with which to make the paper for these posters." That was a public statement he made. You didn't hear about that, I suppose?
Frank said if he put up 1 powder for every 7 Poles killed in the occupation of Poland that they wouldn't have enough paper to make the posters. You didn't hear about that statement?
A No, I didn't hear anything about the statement. I knew that Poles were executed, yes. I myself read posters of that kind in Posen. Posters were put up stating that certain Poles had been shot for sabotage after having been sentenced by a court.
Q Yet you never heard of Germany mistreating Poles any of the time you were in Poland, is that right?
A In the circles where I moved, that is to say in economic circles, the Poles were treated decently.
Q The IMT received proof and after months of deliberation came to the conclusion that 1/3 of the Poles in Poland were killed - not died but killed as a result of the criminal occupation of Poland by Germany. And you want us to believe that you never heard about any mistreatment of Poles while you were there and you were there all during the war, up until late 1943. One out of every 3 Poles was killed and you didn't hear anything about that?
A In the fields where I worked this certainly was not the case.
Q That doesn't answer my question. Did you hear about it?
A Now after I have heard of the trials I also heard that those things were supposed to have happened.
Q You didn't hear about it while you were there, though?
A No.
Q No mistreatment at all as far as you knew?
A In the newly-annexed German territories in the East I never heard that Poles were maltreated, and by maltreated I mean badly treated.
Q And you also include killing, don't you?
A Yes.
Q Just so there won't be any misunderstanding. Did you hear about Himmler's statement with regard to Poland in July 1942?" That it is not our task to Germanize the East but to see to it that only people with purely Germanic blood live in the East."
A Could you repeat that once more?
Q Well, Himmle'r, your boss, was talking about the occupation of Poland, and he says "It is not our task to Germanize the Poles but to see to it that people of only purely Germanic blood live in the East." Didn't you hear about that?
A It is very difficult for me to keep apart what I may have heard before or heard in the course of the big trial. In any case I was not present when the speech was made and I don't believe that I read anything about it in the papers.
Q Witness, it wouldn't have surprised you to have heard a statement like that from Himmler, would it?
AAs far as the character of Himmler was concerned I did not think very much of Himmler.
Q A statement like this wouldn't have surprised you, would it, coming from Himmler?
A It is very difficult for me to answer your question. After all, this is not a fact but just a judgment.
Q Well, your policy in occupying Poland fell in that same line. Tell us, witness, what did you understand to be a racial German?
AA racial German is a citizen of the Polish State who is of German origin.
Q Witness, did you hear about Himmler's speech in 1941 at the Day of Metz - an address to officers of SS-Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler on the presentation of a historical Nazi flag?
A I didn't hear anything at the time about this speech.
Q You didn't hear that Himmler said there "that the following things happened in Poland in weather 40° below zero. We had to haul away thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, where we had to have toughness." He says, "You should hear this and also forget it again to put thousands of leading Poles where we had to have toughness. Otherwise we would have been taken advantage of later."
You didn't hear about that speech or about these occasions?
AAt the time I wasn't present and didn't hear about it.
Q That's very strange because in the course of the speech he talked about your enterprise. He says: "The apartment building program which is the prerequisite for a healthy and social basis for the entire SS, as well as the entire Fuehrer Corps, can be carried out only when I get the money for it from somewhere. Nobody is going to give me the money. It must be earned and it will be earned by forcing the scum of mankind, inmates, professional criminals, to do the work." He says "this activity is necessary to eliminate those negative people from the German people and second, to exploit them once more for the great Volk Community by having them break stone and make bricks so the Fuehrer can again erect his great monuments." You didn't hear about that?
A I didn't hear the speech and the statement you have just made, Mr. Prosecutor, did not come to my knowledge neither through Himmler nor Pohl. Neither has this ever been a part of my work. Nor has this become evident from the documents which have been presented here.
Q May it please the Tribunal, I should like to mark this speech in evidence. It was offered and accepted by the IMT as being one of Himmler's speeches, 1918-PS. I might also say I cross-examined Karl Wolff on it and he said that he was probably there at the time when it was made. It is Prosecution Exhibit 624 for identification. I haven't the German translation with me but I think I can get it at noon.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it noted in the judgment or is it merely an exhibit?
MR. ROBBINS: I don't recall whether it was noted in the judgment or not.
Dr. Hoffman says No.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I object to the admission of this document. It is completely irrelevant. Dr. Bobermin didn't make the speech nor did Dr. Bobermin hear the speech being made. I don't know what the Prosecution is trying to prove against Dr. Bobermin with this speech. After all, here the Prosecution could submit all the documents containing speeches by any person. There is no probative value at all in this document.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please your Honors, may I only point out this. I think for one thing the entire speech, that is the three pages that I have of it, tends to establish the corpus delicti, the crime that was committed by the SS. He is saying here that we, the SS, killed hundreds of thousands of Poles. The entire speech shows the activities of the SS and the attitude of the Chief of the SS. In addition to that he is talking about Bobermin's activities. I think it can be-
THE PRESIDENT: Wait now, you can't infer that he is talking about Bobermin's activities.
MR. ROBBINS: He is talking about the bricks works in the East. Bobermin was the biggest, and as far as I know, the only brick works operator under the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes, but there were plenty of other brick works in the East weren't there?
MR. ROBBINS: He is talking about "the brick works operated by us, the SS."
DR. GAWLIK: The witness does not say anything about brick works. Where does he state any-thing about brick works? Your Honor, I want to object to the admission of this document for another reason. This is just a simple English translation here. We can't see where this document comes from. We don't know what the exact text of that speech was. Somebody took it down. Who took it down in shorthand? Where was it printed? We can't see at all where this document comes from. There is no proof at all that this was the actual speech. That isn't given at all by this document. You can't say that he was actually referring to brick works.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I am not offering the speech in evidence now. I merely wish to mark it for identification, and before I do offer it will supply defense counsel with sufficient proof that it was Himmler's speech. The I.M.T. decided that it was. It was in an official collection of Himmler's speeches.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if the instrument is not offered in evidence there is nothing for us to rule upon. It is merely marked for identification, and we will hear any objection to it when it is offered in evidence later, if it is offered.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I would like to show you a document and ask you if you can identify it? This is NO-1043, which I will mark as-
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: 625.
Q. (Continued) 625 for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have any English copies?
MR. ROBBINS: I don't as yet, your Honor I think I will very shortly.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will remain in the dark with defense counsel temporarily.
(By Mr. Robbins) This is a report on the work of the trustee General for the building materials in the Eastern area in 1940. Do you recognize it, Witness?
A. A report was made about the activity in the year 1940, that is correct. Whether this report is identical with the report which was made in 1940 I can't say. Just by looking at it, however, I would assume so. I can see that the initial of Pohl is at the top of this report so that these two reports are probably identical. However this report is not signed.
Q. Do you knew that this is the report that was prepared by Dr. Volk?
A. I can't say whether it is identical with this report. As far as I can see, this is a report including the entire year 1940. I don't think that Dr. Volk submitted a report for the entire year.
Q. Excuse me, you say that is not signed?
A. No, I can't find any signature at the end. I can only see the initials of Pohl at the top of the document.
Q. Perhaps the entire report wasn't photostated. Let me show you the original.
A. I only have it here up to Page 17.
Q. Is this the original report?
A. Yes, here I see the signature of Dr. Volk, and I also see the in itials of Pohl.
Q. Well, you heard his-
A. This seems to be a report about the first six months of the year 1940.
Q. Did you ever see this report before?
A. I can't say that with certainty since this report only covers half a year. As far as I can recall, it was submitted during the time when I was away on leave, because other wise I certainly would have put my initials also on this report. However, with that I don't want to say that I did not obtain any knowledge of the contents of this report. If you will give me the opportunity of looking at this report, and since in particular Dr. Vold drafted this report, I have no reason to claim that I don't have any knowledge the contents of this report.
Q. Well, you wouldn't claim that you had no knowledge if you did have knowledge, would you?
A. I have already stated that it is possible that this report went actually past me because it was submitted during the time when I was absent. It was probably requested by Pohl during the time when I was away on leave. Dr. Volk drafted this report and Dr. Salpeter then probably passed it on directly, and thus I did not receive any knowledge of it. I want to emphasize that I do not claim that I did not obtain any knowledge of the contents of this report, but I cannot say with certainty whether I read this report after I returned.
Q. I would like to ask you just two or three question about it, Will you turn to Page 4 in the original, please. It is Roman paragraph II where Volk is talking about the taking over of the plants.
A. Yes, I found it.
Q. In the second sentence he says, "There were no lists or registers in regard to the location of the brick works. There was nothing left for us to do therefore but to drive around the open country and to have a look at the different plants in order to ascertain whether the undertaking in question was Jewish or Polish owned." Do you see that?
A. Yes I can read that here.
Q. Is that correct?
A. It probably was handled in such a manner that commissioners of the General Trustee, the work groups leaders, contacted the district directors, the Landraete and asked them just what was happening to the brick works in the area.
Q. I don't think you understood my question. When he says, "We drove around the countryside looking for jewish brick works," whom does he mean; who did that?
A. I have already stated that neither Dr. Volk nor I did that because at that period of time both of us were in Berlin. It must have been the central work managers who worked together with the district.
Q. Someone subordinate to your office, was in not, to 11/A/4?
A. It belonged to the main department 11/A/4, that is correct.
Q. Did I understand you to say that none of the brick plant in Poland under your supervision were demolished, destroyed?
A. None of them were destroyed.
Q. None at all?
A. No, that wan't the purpose of our work at all.
Q. Will you look on Page 5 of this document, the second paragraph. It says that all production plants could not be put into operation because part of them were only fit for demolition.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Isn't it true that they were demolished?
A. No, It isn't shown by that at all. It is only shown here that they were in such a bad condition that they could only be described as being in a half demolished state, but it does not say that they were acttually demolished.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, do you see the disadvantage the defense is laboring under? You say that you marked this for identification, and then you proceed to cross-examine on it in detail as if it had been admitted in evidence. German counsel have no copies of it, and are treating it as an admitted exhibit.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well, your Honor, I shall not ask more questions on this.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) Witness, how many ghettos did you know about in the Warthegau?
A. I can't give you. any figure. I knew that there were ghettos in the Warthegau, Especially the ghetto of Litzmannstadt was well-known.
Q. That is not the only one you knew about?
A. No, in the south of Warthegau there were also so-called Jewish living areas, settlement areas.
Q. About how many ghettos did you know about?
A. I can't give you any exact figure at all.
Q. Give me approximate figure then.
A. I can't give you any approximate figure, because this was a question which did not concern me directly. I can only tell you what I heard at the time. In this connection I can only say that the ghetto, the existence of the ghetto at Letzmannstadt (Lodz was well know, and that in the south of the Warthegau several villages were inhabited by Jews exclusively. Just how many there were and what villages these were I can't tell you. However, I can tell you that at Posen there were no ghettos.
Q. Well, altogether would you say five hundred ghettos?
A. I would like to, but I can't give you any exact figure. For the Warthegau this figure seems to be greatly exaggerated.
Q Did you have Jewish workers working in your plants under the-
A In part yes, as craftsmen. There were certain areas in the East where there were only Jewish craftsmen.
Q They were employed in the Eastern German Construction Works?
A Yes, they were also with the stern German Construction Material Company. In the year 1940 and later on this enterprise had Jewish craftsmen.
Q And you used Jewish labor from the Lodz Chetto?
A No.
Q You mean to tell us that you didn't use any Jews in Litzmannstadt?
A No, this was impossible at the plants at Litzmanstadt, and we didn't want it there because we had an adequate number of german craftsmen.
Q Well, you had two work centers in Litzmannstadt, and Litzmannstadt was one of the five main work centers?
AAt Litzmannstadt, before that time, we used to have one working center, and this was later on dissolved.
Q There was a Litzmannstadt Plant I and Litzmannstadt Plant II, were there not?
A These are two different plants. These are two brick works. However, they are not two work centers.
Q Well, let's start all over again. Did you use any Jews at all in the area in Litzmannstadt?
A I don't know just what you assume the area of Litzmannstadt to be. I stated that I did not employ any Jews from the Ghetto at Litzmannstadt. I don't know anything about it.
Q Did you employ any Jews in the Litzmannstadt plant, or work?
A I don't know anything about that either. I have already stated that the Eastern German Construction Material Company employed Jews as workers.
Q Well, they employed them in Litzmannstadt too, didn't they?
A No, I don't know anything with regard to Litzmannstadt.
Q Well, you assume that they did, didn't you, without knowing precisely?
A No, I don't think so, after all, the Ghetto at Litzmannstadt in particular was a closed Ghetto. The other ghettoes, as far as I saw them, did not have a fence around them at all.
Q Is it your testimony that now where in any of your plants did you use ghetto labor?
A Not in the form that you have mentioned it just now.
Q All right, let me mention it in another form. Is it your testimony that at no time in any of your plants dud you use labor from Jewish ghettoes?
A I have already answered that in the affirmative because, after all, the Jews lived in the ghetto, however, they received a pass from the police which permitted them to leave the ghetto and go to their place of work. Therefore, they were not supervised at the plant and they were treated just like all other workers.
Q They were treated just like other workers! Is that what you want us to believe?
A. Yes.
Q You knew that all over Poland, don't you, that the Jews had to live in the ghetto, had to register, and had to wear the yellow star?
A Yes, I know that.
Q Do you know of any inmates at all, anyone who worked in your industry at Golleschau who is alive today?
A I don't know any inmates personally.
Q You know, very well, don't you, that every inmate that ever worked in your plant was either killed in the plant or went up the chimney later in Auschwitz.
You know that don't you?
A No, I don't know that.
Q You told us that you knew that when inmates in your plant at Golleschau became unfit for work they were sent back to Auschwitz? You knew about that didn't you?
A Yes.
Q You didn't know they were going to be gassed though?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q I suppose at no time did you know that the Jews and the inmates at Golleschau begged not to be sent back to Warsaw. Did you know that? Back to Auschwitz -- You know that, didn't you, that they begged not to be sent back to Auschwitz?
A I don't know that. I only stated-- and I also stated that in the course of my examination--that many inmates told me that they liked it here, and they would prefer to remain in a smaller labor camp much rather than remain in the big camp at Auschwitz.
Q Do you remember being interrogated on the 18th of December in Nuernberg by Mr. Wolff?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember telling him that you remembered that prisoners would beg to be kept and work at Golleschau and not to be sent back to Auschwitz?
A I stated to Mr. Wolff that inmates--not all inmates but some of them--stated that they would like to remain at Golleschau and work at Golleschau. They liked that much better than the camp at Auschwitz.
Q Just answer my question. Did you make this statement, that you remembered inmates begging not to be sent back to Auschwitz? Did you make it or not?
A No, I did not make a statement in that form.
Q You knew SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Schneider of the "W" offices, don't you?
A The notary, Dr. Schneider, yes, I know him.
Q You met him, had a conversation with him in Budapest, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell Dr. Schneider in that conversation that you had heard about inmates being mistreated in Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Did you tell that you learned that inmates were killed by concentration camp guards?
A No.
Q Did you tell him that you had learned that inmates were gassed in Auschwitz when they could no longer be used for work in Golleschau?
A No.
Q You didn't tell him these things either at Budapest or anywhere else/ Is that your testimony?
A Yes. I didn't tell him that there nor any other place.
Q Did you talk to Schneider at all about Auschwitz?
A I can't recall ever having talked to him about it. I don't think so.
Q Did you talk to him about any concentration-camp matter?
A I don't think so.
Q How often did you visit the garrison at Lublin?
A On two occasions.
Q When was that?
A That was early in 1943, and once, as far as I can recall-but I just passed by there on that occasion--in the middle of 1943.
Q Both times in the middle of 1943?
A No; once it was in the beginning of 1943, and the second time it must just have been the middle of 1943.
Q Did the produce from any of your firms go to the garrison at Lublin?
A I can't say that with certainty. In any case, I did not conclude purchasing contracts and it is quite possible that the cement factory at Gebewitz furnished cement for that garrison.
Q That was under your supervision, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q And you obtained funds from the garrison at Lublin?
A Yes.
Q You produced around six million bricks per year, did you not in your industries?
A No, in the first year we had six hundred million bricks, and, later on, the production decreased.
Q And I do understand from your testimony that none of these bricks were used by the SS?
A No. Of course, the SS also purchased some of these bricks, they probably purchased them directly or they obtained them through the raw material trade.
Q Do you remember that you testified on direct examination that you didn't produce anything for the SS?
A I didn't say that. I stated that the plants manufactured for the general construction material market. That means that, of course, the SS also could purchase some of these products.
Q I think the testimony will show-the transcript will show-exactly what you said on that. Well, as a matter of fact, the SS was the biggest consumer of the products, was it not?
A I don't think so. I don't believe that at all.
Q Wasn't it the biggest consumer?
A I don't think so.
Q What organization used more of your products than the SS?
A For example, the agencies of the Wehrmacht would purchase a lot of these items.
Q It is your testimony that the Wehrmacht used more of your products in Poland than the SS did, is that right?
A I didn't say one thing nor the other, Mr. Prosecutor. I stated-
Q Well, suppose you say one thing or the other. Let's stop trying to be clever about this, and just tell us what you know about it. Now, who was the biggest consumer of your products? It was the SS, wasn't it?
A I dispute that statement.
Q Well, who was?
A I can't tell that to you in detail. I have already stated that agencies of the Wehrmacht--and I also furnished material to the construction works. After all, we can't say that from the individual purchasing contract, and I wasn't in the sales department at all.
Q Then just say you don't know, is that right?
A I have stated that I don't know that the SS had been the main consumer of my products.
Q Did Amtsgruppe C use any of your products?
A Certainly the construction management must have bought some bricks which had been manufactured by my enterprises.
AAnd you knew quite well that your products were going into the construction of concentration camps, didn't you?
A I didn't know that. If any construction work was carried out in a concentration camp, then probably construction material was purchased in order to do that, and then, of course, bricks which had been manufactured by my plants also must have been purchased. However, whenever they purchased this they would not say "We now need a hundred thousand bricks for a concentration camp construction."
Q Well, you knew Amtsgruppe C was constructing concentration camps, in the Warthegau and in the government General, didn't you?
A I can't recall any concentration camp having existed in the Warthegau.
Q Well how about the Government general?
A In the Government General I only leased several bricks works in 1943, and these products were also turned over to the general construction material market.
Q Well, excuse me--you are not answering my question at all. You knew that Amtsgruppe C was constructing concentration camps in the Government General, didn't you? Yes or no.
A I can' say whether concentration camps were established by Amtsgruppe C in the Government General.
Q Do you know whether any of these products were sent back to Germany?
AAlready, because of transportation difficulties, it was impossible to transport any of the bricks to the West. I only can recall one individual case: here, two or three truck-loads of bricks were brought into the Reich.
Q You want us to believe that this is all of the material all of the production of your plants that you ever sent back to the Reich, is that right? That is all?
A I have stated--and I told you just what I know.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess, Mr. Robbins, until one forty-five.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION.
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, August 11, 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: I believe Dr. Hoffman has a question for the Tribunal.
DR. HOFFMAN: (Attorney for the Defendant Scheide): Your Honor, I have a request to make of the Tribunal. We usually received the transcripts in German of what was going on in the Tribunal. Last time we received the transcripts they were dated the 28th of July. Therefore, two weeks' records are missing. If Your Honors could possibly see to it that we receive those transcripts a little bit earlier, we would appreciate it quite a bit for it is difficult for us to work without the transcripts on time.
THE PRESIDENT: I'll do my best. I'll do what I can. I can't translate them myself, you know, I'll have to get somebody to do it.
HANS BOBERMIN - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, you state that you recall being interrogated on the 7th of December last year. Do you also remember being interrogated on the 19th of December?
A. I was only examined on three occasions, and they were on two consecutive days. I can't tell now whether it was the 7th and 8th or the 17th and 18th. I would assume it was on the latter dates.
Q. Do you recall that you were under oath when you were interrogated?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Did you tell the interrogator on those occasions that the food received by the inmates at Golleschau Portland Cement Company for the inmate laborers was considerably less than that given to the free workers generally?