Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 August 1947, 0930 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
DR. HANS BOBERMIN - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q On a Friday we had stopped with Point 3 of the action, namely the taking of the credit by the garrison administration in Lublin. What did the credit amount to, which credit you had received from the garrison administration in Lublin?
A 1.2 million zlotys.
Q How did this credit come about?
A In order to provide the troops in the east with construction material, and particularly with cement, I had leased a cement factory. That was the most eastern cement factory which was within the areas of the boundaries of Germany. That plant had extreme difficulties with transports when transporting coal, and there were also difficulties as far as procurement of spare parts were concerned for machines and similar things. That was the reason why that plant at the time never did reach its full capacity.
Several suggestions were made to me by several circles to take over that plant because within my large administration I was in a better position to provide that plant with the necessary equipment. I did that early in 1943. The garrison administration in Lublin, as one of the most garrison administrations of the east, of course was interested, very much interested in this factory.
It was usual in Germany that managers who were in charge of plants which were working for the interest of the Wehrmacht would receive certain credits from the Wehrmacht. I know, for instance, from my activity in Hungary in the Manfred Weiss Works that those enterprises received credits amounting to twenty or thirty millions, which later on had to be deducted and accounted for. That is the reason why the garrison administration at that time gave the credits so that I could procure construction material for the troops, and I accepted that credit.
Q What did they tell you when you received that credit where that money came from?
A Nothing whatsoever was said about the origin of the money when we received the credits. It is not usual anyway that one tells you where the money comes from, particularly when a person issuing the credit is a public treasury.
Q Did you know that you were receiving money and that money was coming from the Reinhardt Action?
A No.
Q This money which you received, did that money originate in the Reinhardt Action?
A I couldn't tell you that. The money came from the garrison administration account or from the garrison treasury in Lublin, which, according to my knowledge, received its money from the Reich just like any other Wehrmacht treasury. When later on I was told to pay back that money to a special account called Reinhardt Fund, this only need mean that was used as a transfer office, or agents, transfer account possibly.
Q Were there any circumstances given when you received that credit which you could have gained the impression that money came from the Reinhardt Action?
A No. When I accepted the credits I did not even know the term "Reinhardt Action".
Q Would you please take a look at Document NO-1015, Exhibit No. 451, as contained in Document Book No. XVI on Page 92 of German document book and 93 of the English document book - on Page 93, your Honor, of the English document book. Was that letter signed by you, Witness?
A Yes.
Q How did this letter come about?
A I was informed that the credit had to be paid back. The time when I had to pay it back was sort of surprising to me because I thought I could keep the credit until autumn. Of that year, as the agency for the repayment of the credit, I was told that it was the WVHA to receive that, the man of the Main Treasury, Hauptsturmfuehrer-Melmer, M-e-l-m-e-r.
Q Who was the SS-Obersturmfuehrer Wippern as mentioned in that letter?
A Wippern was the man in charge of the garrison administration in Lublin, and he was a IV-A with the SS-Police Leader in Lublin.
Q What do you mean by IV-A, Witness?
A A IV-A, is an administrative leader or administrative officer of a military unit. That is starting from a battalion upwards.
Q What were your thoughts which you had with reference to the term, "Reinhardt Action"?
A I couldn't tell you that for sure today. After all, do place yourself in my place at the time. At that time I was overburdened with work. It was in the spring, in other words, at a time when the plants had to start working all over again, and where the entire workload of the entire year had formed a deadlock. At the time I did a lot of traveling so that I couldn't very well take care of all my work in my office, and I could only do that for a short period of time during the week. Apart from that at the time I had a number of honorary activities which I had to take care of within the framework of the economic units, Wirtschaftsverbaende. I worked, for instance, in the cement unit. I was also a member of one of the advisory boards of the brick factories, and I became a member of the industry and commercial chamber in Posen, and I had a close cooperation with the professional associations.
All those activities of mine at the time took up quite a bit of my time.
The only thing that was interesting and important for me at the time was that the credit had to be paid back. The Reinhardt Action for me at the time was nothing but the name for an account which was of no importance nor meaning to me. At the time there were so many actions, sometimes conscription programs, sometimes they were construction projects, there were so many of them that the term "action" was nothing unusual for me.
For instance, at the time there was the Action Unrest, Unruh, U-n-r-u-h. That meant that all men who could fight in the front line would have to be taken out of the plants and sent to the front line. There was the Action Loewe which meant the Atlantic Wall project, the Atlantic ports for fortifications. At the time we also had the eastern fortification program in the east, and then we had the eastern road construction project and similar projects, and it is quite possible that somehow I thought that name, that term, "Reinhardt Action", was closely connected with the eastern projects. I already stated on Friday that I had quite a personal credit with my own bank and that therefore it wouldn't have been too much trouble for me to receive all sorts of credits from those banks. It would have been incomprehensible why I was to throw away my good name into something which was nothing at all, so that instead of getting the high interest of the garrison treasury I would get lower interest from the bank.
Q Would you also know on the basis of this order received about the measures which took place within the Reinhardt Action or as part of the Reinhardt Action?
A No.
Q Witness, I shall show you now Document NO-1005 which is Exhibit 390 as contained in Document Book No. XIV on pages 49 and 50 of the German, and 51 of the English document book. This document also was introduced by the Prosecution in order to show your partici pation in the Reinhardt Action.
This letter of the 29th of January, 1943, is it signed by you?
A Yes.
Q What was the activity that those three auditors were to carry out as contained in the letter?
A They were to be used by me as commercial collaborators, either as bookkeepers or as auditors. I am also Writing that I was in a dilemna at the time because I had an insufficient number of collaborators, and the information that Herr Dr. Hohberg was to turn over a few of his auditors to me was very pleasant for me.
Q Those three auditors, were they to be employed for any of the enterprises of the Reinhardt Action?
A No, they were to be used in my plants, either the Eastern German Construction Company or with the Klinker Cement Factory.
Q Did you receive the letter of the 9th of February, 1943?
A Yes, I received it.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, he just received, it; he didn't sign it.
THE COURT: There is nothing in either of these documents about the Reinhardt Fund.
DR. GAWLIK: I absolutely agree with you, Your Honor, but the Prosecution introduced that letter on page 1935 of the record to prove that Dr. Bobermin participated in the Reinhardt Action. Personally I can't see anything about the Reinhardt Action in that letter either. I can't understand it. I absolutely agree with Your Honor.
THE COURT: I suppose it is because Globocnik's name is mentioned in the letter.
DR. GAWLIK: Well, maybe. But Globocnik, after all - well, we don't know if he participated in the Reinhardt Action. If the name Globocnik is mentioned this does not necessarily mean that it is a Reinhardt Action.
MR. ROBBINS: I don't think there is any use for the Prosecution to belabor the point here.
Dr. Hohberg testified About his auditors being sent out to Globocnik.
TEE COURT: To Lublin?
MR. ROBBINS: To Lublin, yes.
THE COURT: For the purpose of auditing the records?
MR. ROBBINS: I am not sure how far Dr. Hohberg testified about the Reinhardt Fund. He knew that they were sent to Lublin, however.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, but Dr. Bobermin did not send his auditors over there.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Did you gain knowledge of the Reinhardt Action by that letter?
A No, nothing is mentioned about the Reinhardt Action.
Q What did you imagine that those special tasks were which were being taken care of by Dr. Globocnik and Dr. Horn; what did you imagine they were?
A Here again I have to give you the same answer as before. I thought very little about it, if any. The main important part for me was that the auditors I did request had been sent to me. The words "special task" at the time were used quite a bit. One gladly used that expression in order to be able to show off with it. That was used when somebody did something outside of the framework of his activities by receiving a special order. If, for instance, the man in charge of any construction agency had received the order by one of his superiors to buy a basket of apples for his superior, then immediately he spoke of a "special task" in order to cover himself in a mysterious way. The words "special task" at the time was not a very important matter.
Q What do you know about Globocnik's activity?
A I knew of Globocnik, that he was a Police and SS-Officer in Lublin. I knew also that he was a special delegate for Himmler in order to establish SS and Police strong points in the occupied eastern territories. It was in that capacity that he came within my field of sight, because somehow he had some trouble with the WVHA.
He had trouble with the WVHA because the construction measures after all fell within the scope of the WVHA. That again was one of those "special tasks" in brackets, which had nothing to do with his activity as SS and Police Leader in Lublin.
Q Did you know at the time that Globocnik was playing an important part in the evacuation of Jews and in the administration of Jewish property?
A No.
Q What did you know about Dr. Horn's activity?
A I knew of Dr. Horn that he was a business manager of the O-s-t-i-, Osti.
Q. What did you know about the Osti?
A. I only heard about the Osti through conversation. It was alleged to be an enterprise which was established in order to carry out repair work, patching up on Wehrmacht uniforms, etc., in the East in order to avoid transporting all those uniforms to the Reich for repairs.
Q. The prosecution stated that you knew of the "dark business" which was being carried out by the Osti, is that correct?
A. No, whatever I knew about the Osti I just told you.
Q. Take a look at Document Book No. 17, Document NO-554. It is on pages 43 to 54 in both the English and the German document books, I believe.
Did you receive that letter, witness, which is contained on page 42?
A. On page 43 there is a letter which I wrote, Mr. Defense counsel. Do you mean the letters on pages 54 and 58?
Q. Yes, indeed.
A. Yes, I received those letters.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the exhibit number, please?
DR. GAWLIK: It is exhibit number 448, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. In connection with other documents using the same number, 554 it is shown that this reduction had to be apdi for by the Reinhardt Fund. What did you know about that?
A. I only gained knowledge of these other documents here in these trials for the first time. They were neither submitted to me nor did I gain any knowledge of their contents. I only received those two circular letters, and I received the letter of the fifth of July, 1943, which is contained on page 42 of the German Document Book. I answered that letter by saying that my firms did not participate in taking credits from the SS Savings Communities connected with the Red Cross. In the two circular letters which I received, and which you, Mr. Defense Counsel just mentioned a few minutes ago were only speaking about credits from both the Red Cross and the SS Savings Communities--but nothing is mentioned about a Reinhardt Fund now a Reinhardt Action.
As I stated before, this letter did not interest me too much because I did not participate in taking credits from those two agencies.
Q. Did you hear the posen speech of Himmler which took place in October, 1943?
A. No, as far as I knew at the time only Gruppenfuehrers and Obergruppenfuehrers could participate in this conference.
Q. Did Herr Pohl at any time speak about the contents of the speech with you?
A. No.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Were you in posen at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't hear anything about the speech?
A. I only heard that a conference took place in posen, a conference of the SS generals, with Himmler. According to my knowledge, there were two much conferences. I didn't know what was discussed in that conference, nor did I know anything about the speech.
Q. I don't suppose they had a copy of the speech in the paper the next morning, did they?
A. No; it was probably reported in the papers that Himmler was in posen. That is quite possible. But I found out about that through somebody else. But I don't believe anything was published in the paper about the contents of the speech.
Q. No probably not.
Did you see Pohl in Posen at the time of the speech?
A. Yes, indeed. I saw Herr Pohl every time when he was in posen when I was present. I picked him up at the station, and I drove him back to the station; that was my duty, as one of his subordinates.
Q. But he didn't tell you what a shocking speech Himmler had made?
A. No, Herr Pohl spoke on principle only about matters which concerned our office and our work. Our relationship at the time was limited to official matters only.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Did anybody else at the time about the contents of the posen speech with you?
A. No.
Q. I shall now speak about the subject of Hungary. In your affidavit you stated that in the month of April, 1944, you were transferred to Hungary in order to work there as an SS Economist. Is that correct, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. I shall now show you a document, NO-2128, witness. It is contained in Document Book No. 18, on page 88. It is Exhibit No. 331.
THE PRESIDENT: That isn't in Document Book 18.
MR. ROBBINS: It is repeated in Document Book 18; it is also in Book 12.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I see. page 68, Document NO-2128, is it?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Were you at any time an SS Economist in the Occupied Territories, including the Government General?
A. No.
Q. What were the tasks which you had as an SS Economist in Hungary?
A. My task was exactly the same as that of an intendant of a Wehrmacht branch; of an intendant in the army, of the air force, or of the navy, we were commonly subordinated to the Wehrmacht intendant, who also provided us with funds. The Wehrmacht intendant also gave us the regulations concerning the expenditure of those amounts.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Was the witness SS Economic Administrator in Hungary? What was his title? what was his office in Hungary?
DR. GAWLIK: Witness -
WITNESS: SS Econonic in Hungary.
THE PRESIDENT: What year was that?
WITNESS: That was in the spring of 1944 until the end of the war.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, SS Economic Administrator -- is that the right word?
WITNESS: I am not quite sure about the term, your Honor. I am not quite sure whether the English word, represents the correct translation of my task. It is possibly more correct to say "Quartermaster," but, if Your Honor please, SS Wirtschafter actually means economist.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I know that in the documents "Wirtschafter" is sometimes translated "SS-Economist" and other times "SS-Economic Administrator". It is the same term.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the German word?
MR. ROBBINS: Wirtschafter.
MR. MUSSMANNO: Were your duties equivalent to those which a quarter master would perform.
WITNESS: Yes, indeed, Your Honor. I had to supply the army for that branch of the Wehrmacht, the SS, and the Police in Hungary, and, therefore, I was connected with the administrative offices of the Honved Army. I received funds from the Wehrmacht Intendant who was in charge of all the Wehrmacht branches whom he had to supply. Furthermore, I had to procure the gasoline for the cars, vehicles, which, again I received from the quartermaster of the Plenipotentiary General in Hungary. Furthermore, I was in charge of the PX and clothing, and I had to procure all those things; and I received those things through the supply lines running in from the Reich. The PX articles were also in part purchased in Hungary, particularly as far as wine and similar things were concerned, which Hungary had quite a bit of. The food was received from the Hungarian Honved stores. All those regulations are laid down, so-called "Gitterborg agreement" which the OKW concluded in February 1944.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.- Did you supply the food also? Was that part of your tasks -the food for the army?
A.- Yes, it worked out the following way; namely, that I didn't have to provide the food in a material sense, only fundamentally, to carry on the negotiations. The SS divisions received the food from the Honved stocks and stores on the basis of special coupons which I received, and all I had to do was to carry out negotiations with the Honved ministry and fix centrally what kind of food would be sent, both according to its kind and according to its number, to the SS and Police units. Of course, there were certain discrepancies then because the so-called German menu was a little bit different than the Hungarian menu. There were a few additional factors, that the Hungarian soldier comes from the country, for the greatest part, and that he was also receiving a little bit of food out there in the country, which did not quite apply to the German soldiers. Then, it was also part of my tasks to carry out the duties as carried out by the Clain Officer in an American army. In other words, I had to care for the claims which were brought before us by the civilian population, due to damages which were caused by one of our units. For instance, if a car of a vehicle ran into a window and destroyed it, or if a building was destroyed, then , of course, they came to see me and my agency, and I took care of them.
DR. GAWLIK: In order to explain all those things stated by the defendant Bobermin, I should like to direct your Honors' attention to Document NO-2128, which is Exhibit 331, which refers to the SS Economist in the Occupied Territories including the Government General. Therefore, you cannot very well apply this document to the activity of Dr. Bobermin. It is something entirely different. Hungary was not occupied territory.
MR. ROBBINS: I object to that statement of Defense Counsel, and ask that it be stricken from the record. This defendant is the best person to testify to that, and I would like Counsel to ask the defendant that question.
DR. GAWLIK: (Attorney for the Defendant Bobermin) All I wanted to show, Your Honors, was what the line of introduction of evidence is on the part of the defendant.
Q (BE DR. GAWLIK) In Document NO-2128, Exhibit No. 331, as stated before, in Document Book No. XVIII, page 95, there is contained under IV under paragraph "c", "Looted or Secured raw material are the property of the Reich." As SS Economist in Hungary, did you ever loot anything? Did you have a booty? Did you receive a booty?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: Receive a what?
THE INTERPRETER: Booty, captured material, Your Honor.
Q Were you in charge of a concentration camp or labor camp in Hungary as an SS Economist?
A No.
Q In your affidavit, dated the 16th of January, 1947, which is Exhibit No. 19, Document Book No. I, on page 111 of Document Book I, you mentioned the trusteeship contract with the Manfred Weiss Plants. What was your activity and your task with the Trusteeship Administration of the Manfred Weiss Works?
A My task was to act as a commercial advisor for the Hungarian Management there.
Q Were you Trusteeship Administrator?
A No.
Q Were the Manfred Weiss Works looted?
A No.
Q Did you give any protection and help to any of the members of the Manfred Weiss Works or members of the Staff of the Manfred Weiss Works who were in Hungary?
A Yes, I was able to do that on several occasions and I even had to do that. For instance, the Manager of the Aircraft Plant was arrested by the Hungarian Police, because he had allegedly committed sabotage. We had negotiations which lasted for hours and hours and I finally succeeded in having him released and placed under my protection.
During the negotiations which took place with the Hungarian Police in the next few days, the innocence of that manager was proven. I also helped Dr. Billitz who was a Jewish manager of the plant. I had to protect him currently from the attacks on the part of the Hungarian Police and then a further Hungarian Manager who was still in office was to be arrested in my presence on one occasion. He was alleged to have hidden rifles and Army weapons of all kinds. I even succeeded in stopping that. Finally, we released one manager of the enterprise who was in one of the jails in Budapest.
Q In your affidavit you stated, "I received my job as collaborator of the WVHA." I would like to ask you, therefore, did you receive any instructions or orders from the WVHA or from Pohl, while you were in the Trusteeship Administration of the Manfred Weiss Works?
A No, I received my instructions from the Trustee, Dr. Becher.
Q Did you receive any payment for your activity in the Manfred Weiss Works?
A No.
Q Now I would like to ask you a few final questions, particularly in connection with Count 4 of the indictment. What was your political activity up to 1939?
A I was brought up to think liberally. My parents were conscientious followers of the Weimar Republic. My step-father, with whom I had very close and cordial relationship, was a member of the Socialist Democratic Party, and he was extremely active in the Socialist Trade Unions. Personally, I was a member of no party whatsoever. The programs of the 30 parties which existed at the time did not have any attraction for me. For me the individual personality was of importance, independent from their political attitude and their membership in any of the parties, I highly esteemed men like Jarres, Stresemann, Severing, and Bruening. Of course, I did appreciate quite a bit Herr Dr. Schacht as an economist. All these men were members of various parties.
I am a Socialist in my economic attitude. However, I am not a member of doctrine, and I don't believe in a doctrine. Socialism for me is not a system, but rather a moral doctrine, and I am also of the opinion that this was only caused by the situation in Germany at the time. I never did believe, nor do I believe today, that there is a political or economic system which could apply to the entire world. This is my individualistic idea, namely to consider every human being and to appreciate him as such, regardless of his political ideas and his religion. I stick to this up to this date.
Q Were you a member of the NSDAP?
A Yes.
Q When did you join the NSDAP?
A May 1933.
Q What were your reasons for joining the Party?
A Up to the month of January, 1933, the NSDAP was a party just like any other party. After that date, the idea was propagated that the NSDAP was not to be a party any longer, but, rather, a collective movement for all those Germans who were ready to remove Germany from a political and economic distress. At the time I didn't have a very high position, but my position was somehow exposed, because I was the Business Manager of an Academical Professional Union. The larger part of my colleagues and the business managers of befriended unions had already joined the party at that time and many people told me again and again that I simply couldn't refuse to agree with them by joining the Party. They told me the NSDAP changed entirely in its character. I was no longer a fighting organization; it was a collective movement. The parties in the middle level and central level also advised people to join the NSDAP. A number of brilliant men of the Weimar Republic as Dr. Schacht, Schwerin-Krosigk, Dr. Guertner, and others, as for instance, Dr. Maier, who is the Ministerial President of BadenWuerttemberg -- all these people at the time offered their co-operation.
The cooperated all the time and today again they are playing an important part in politics. After I thought it over for quite a while, I joined the Party at the latest day I could. I wanted to show them that I was willing to cooperate. It wasn't very easy for me to make that decision at the time, but I did want to have the possibility of working with that particular unit of which I was a member. In the meantime, my step-father was on trial to be released, due to his political unresponsibility. I cannot deny here that there were certain material motives, which played a part in there, namely the following: That I was able to help my father at the time, who meant quite a lot to me and whom I owed much. I did not have any activities in the framework of the party. I did not hold and office.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Gawlik, I would like to ask a question. Witness, you said you joined the NSDAP, that you joined the National Socialist Party, just like you would join any other party. Do I understand from that, you regarded the National Socialist Party just a political party, as one of the 30 that you referred to that didn't have a more set definite program than any of the others?
THE WITNESS: I believe I was misunderstood, Your Honor. What I meant to say was, that up to January, 1933, the NSDAP was also a party just like any other party . After January, 1933, that is to say, after the date of the so-called seizure of power, the idea was propagated that the Party was no longer a party, but, rather a collective movement.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: But when you joined in May, 1933, the National Socialist Party had already given evidence of a totalitarian movement, had it not?
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO (continued):
A Yes, there was such a thing at the time undoubtedly. The entire German youth was against the Party at the time and we had said finally some movement has to prevail.
Q What was the date of the Reichstag fire?
A I couldn't tell you that for certain but it must have been in March or April 1933.
Q So you joined even after that act had taken place?
A Yes, that is correct, but we looked upon the Reichstag fire differently than it was looked upon by the people abroad. We were told that the Reichstag fire was started by Communists, and the trial which took place immediately after the fire showed, according to press reports, that this actually was a fact.
Q Did you know that the Communist members of the Reichstag were forcibly prevented from attending the sessions of the German parliament, the Reichstag?
A I couldn't tell you that for certain but I assume it, because the Communist Party at the time was a strong party indeed, but it was rejected by many.
Q I distinctly had in my notes your statement that you joined the NSDAP because it was a party like any other party and that's what caused me to make these queries which I have just now concluded.
A I don't quite agree with that and believe I have rectified the matter with my statements so far, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q As far as the question with which Judge Musmanno is concerned with reference to the Reichstag not allowing Communist members to participate what did you know or what was the propaganda at the time about the Communist Party?
AAt the time it was stated that the Communists wanted to overthrow the Government.
Q Can you give me details about the propaganda at the time?
A If I remember correctly I believe that the Reichstag fire was brought into connection with those intentions of the Communist Party.
Q What do you know about the propaganda which was made concerning arms that had been found - weapons?
A I couldn't tell you that in detail, but it is possible that certain things were written about it.
Q In Berlin?
A Yes. May I add that at the time we were impressed by the fire it was stressed again and again that the Government had come into power legally and constitutionally and that when Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor, he swore to uphold the Constitution. If things turned out differently than we expected and imagined, then the whole reason can be found in the fact that the law granting extraordinary powers was adopted and always extended. This law of extraordinary powers, according to my knowledge, was accepted by all the parties with the exception of the Socialist Democratic Party. The Socialist Democratic Party at the time made possible the adoption of that law by withholding its vote. I believe this shows the attitude at the time, both from the point of view of the people and that of the leading political circles. The leading political circles were at the end of their wits and couldn't find any other way.
Q Were you a member of any affiliated organization?
A Yes.
Q Which affiliated organization?
A The SS.
Q Why did you join the SS?
A I did not join the SS out of inner conviction but rather because certain outside circumstances forced me to join. In the autumn of 1933 the Student's League wrote to their members and, even to former students asking them to join one of those affiliated organizations. That was not only a wish on their part but it was an order. Whoever did not comply with that order was immediately dismissed from the Students' Leagues.