A That depended entirely on the working detachment, Dr. Gawlik. I worked in Kommando 39 for two or three weeks, which was not liked very much. We had to destroy air raid shelters. Of course, it is indubitable that concrete is more difficult to destroy and to handle than soft chalk. An additional factor was that the tools which we had were not exactly appropriate and sufficient to handle the work, therefore, I believe that our work was extremely difficult also.
Q Did you receive any payment for that work?
A No, nor was I paid for this work nor was anything paid into one of my accounts. I never did receive a bonus or anything. All we received was a special allocation of food which consisted of 100 grams of bread or 10 or 13 grams of fat and then received some sausage or fish.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Where was this?
THE WITNESS: This was at the camp of Dachau, your Honor.
A (Continued) Later on we received half a litre, or approximately half a quart, of soup in the morning, but this so-called additional food was not an additional food, because we received that as part of our normal rations in the beginning, which later on was discontinued.
Q Were PW's employed at Golleschau also?
A No.
Q Did the plant Golleschau produce war material?
A No.
Q Did you at any time gain knowledge of the fact that inmates were killed at Auschwitz?
A No, you mean on purpose?
Q Yes, yes, quite.
A No.
Q Did you gain knowledge that inmates were killed at Golleschau, mistreated or maltreated in any other way?
A No.
Q What do you know about the death of Golleschau?
A I know of no death rate figures at Golleschau.
Q In this connection, Witness, I shall show you this affidavit, which is Document NO-1566, Exhibit No. 18, as contained in Document Book I. It is on page 118 in the Document Book. In your affidavit you stated the following, namely, "That inmates died is known to me." Did this statement refer to Golleschau?
A No. May I give you a short explanation in this connection, how I wrote that sentence? While I was in Nurnberg, I was interrogated on three occasions and on these occasions, I was asked repeatedly what I knew about the death rates in the concentration camps in general and in Golleschau in particular. There I had to say that the conditions in the concentration camps were not known to me and that I knew of no death cases in Golleschau. That answer can be seen from the records which were taken at the time, the shorthand takes. The affidavit was not drawn up by myself, but, rather, was submitted to me ready for signature. I read it quite carefully sentence by sentence. There was one sentence there that inmates were dying -- "That inmates were starving, were dying was not known to me." In any case, a special term was used there, "perished," I believe, which indicated a mistreatment of the inmates on purpose. I objected to that and on that occasion I also stated, "of course inmates probably did die in the concentration camps," and the interrogator also told me "It is quite natural where so many human beings get together in one concentration camp; for instance, human beings have to die," and I changed that word, "perished" into "died". That is how this sentence came about, which, of course, I will stick to. I just wanted to avoid that a misunderstanding takes place in this connection.
Q Who was responsible for the enterprise At Golleschau?
A The works manager was responsible for the plant and for the inmates it was the camp commander.
Q With reference to Golleschau, what are you going to take the responsibility for, Witness?
A I assume the responsibility for everything I did, I ordered and I omitted out of negligence.
I believe that is a normal deduction Which is very much the same over the world.
Q Did you speak to the camp commanders in Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Did you visit concentration camps?
A No.
Q Were you at the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Was an affiliated company or agency of Office W-II at Golleschau?
A No.
Q Did you receive any reports that inmates were changing quite rapidly at Golleschau?
A No.
Q Did you receive any reports according to which there were epidemics at Golleschau?
A No.
Q Did you ever hear any complaints in connection with conditions, and I mean by that particularly, the treatment of inmates?
A No.
Q Were you ever in the concentration camp fo Auschwitz, Witness?
A No.
Q In this connection, I would like to show you the affidavit of Bielsky, who was a witness here. This witness on page 327 of the German Document Book stated -- I mean of the German record -- that in June or July, 1943, you visited the gas chambers and the crematory at Auschwitz. Were you in Auschwitz at that time?
A I was never at Auschwitz at that time nor at any other time.
Q Did you ever see the gas chambers and the crematory?
A No, at no time.
Q The Witness Bielsky did not recognize you, that is true, but he did testify that he had heard your name through an Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda.
Do you know a man by the name of Swoboda?
A No.
Q Was there a person by that name at any time employed in the WVHA?
A I couldn't tell you that. I don't know it.
Q Was there such a person with such a name ever employed in any agency under your supervision or companies under your supervision?
A No.
Q Did the description fit, which Bielsky gave about your administration?
A The description, as given by Bielsky, according to my opinion, was quite general. As far as I can still remember that testimony, he said that person he was referring to was large and stout and that person were a high cap and a leather coat. That is a description which applied to thousands of SS officers. According to my opinion, I believe he forgot one essential trait of my personality at that time. I was rather fat at the time. I weighed almost 200 pounds, and that was one thing which sort of place me in the foreground as compared with the other SS officers. I was really somebody you couldn't miss, particularly wearing a uniform. I think it rather striking myself that the witness Bielsky who at the time alleges to have had me pointed out or to have seen me, -- I don't quite see how he didn't recognize these facts. I would like to point out one more thing, namely, Bielsky spoke of an Obersturmbannfuehrer. In the month of June, 1943, I was only a Sturmbannfuehrer. It was only in the Month of November, 1943, that I became an Obersturmbannfuehrer. Finally there was one more thing he disregarded. Due to my stay in Posen for years, outside of Berlin, that is, I was a person completely unknown, in the WVHA Building in Berlin. Only a very few people knew me personally. Very few SS members and civilian employees with which I had to do in my official capacity knew me. However, Bielsky spoke of a rather striking and prominent personality in the house. Thereupon I thought it rather striking that he mentioned me in connection with my first name.
I believe that in the entire WVHA Building there were not even five SS members who knew my first name conscientiously. One always spoke of or mentioned me only in connection with my official rank, or, something which occurred even more often, with my doctor title. For these reasons I have to assume that this must be a misunderstanding and that is putting it very mildly.
Q Witness, can you give us any facts which would show that you were not at all a well known person in the WVHA?
A Officially only a few of my co-defendants know me. I only met two of them here; or even three. I can recall an incident which occurred here in jail where I met an older looking gentleman who asked me, "What are you? Who are you? Where did you come from? What are you doing here?" And I later found out he was an office chief in the WVHA who did not even know me from sight or from hearsay.
Q. Did you know that inmates were being killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz, witness?
A. No.
Q. When did you hear about it for the first time?
A. After the end of the War, through statements and publications of the Occupational Forces.
Q. Now, take another look at your affidavit, witness. In this affidavit you did state "I heard that human beings died in Auschwitz". what did you mean to say about that.
A. At least on one occasion, possibly on two occasions, a large epidemic occurred in Auschwitz. It was during one winter. I believe it was during 1942-43 when the entire area of Auschwitz was declared a locked area. The entire area of Upper Silesia knew about it. In this connection I also heard that members of the family of an SS comrade had died, or part of his relatives had died, of this epidemic. It of course, could be deducted from this fact that large numbers of inmated had died. Officially I never did hear any figures.
Q. How can you explain it, witness, that during your visits to Golleschau you didn't gain knowledge of what was going on or happening in Auschwitz at an earlier date?
A. I don't know who should have told me. I did speak to the camp eldest but during the 10 minutes together with him we discussed official matters in the camp, itself and not outside detachments. That was not a chatting hour or a time to discuss internal matters. I don't know if he know of those things. We were all so busy with questions which dealt with inmates and the factory.
Q. Did you gain any knowledge of the fact that in other camps inmates were being killed.
A. No.
Q. When did you hear about it for the first time?
A. After the end of the War.
Q. Did you during your visit to Golleschau also speak with inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. Whom did you speak with?
A. I spoke with the camp eldest on every occasion who showed me the billets. I spoke with the camp physician on one single occasion who also was an inmate. Also probably spoke to one or another of the inmates once in a while but can't tell you in detail.
Q. Did these inmates tell you about crimes being committed in concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Did you know that medical experiments were being carried out in concentration camps on inmates?
A. No.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Dr. Gawlik, just as a matter of information. The inmates at Golleschau would they at any time be sent back to the parent camp at Auschwitz of did they remain there permanently.
A. The inmate detachment was limited to Golleschau all the time. Of course possibly sick inmates were taken back to the concentration camp Auschwitz. I imagine there was a certain change, an interchange amongst the inmates. It also occurred that unfit workers or sick workers were sent back by the camp. People who couldn't possibly do the work from a physical point of view - those workers were sent back to the camp. I assume.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. However, witness, if I understood you correctly, that was the exception Generally sneaking the inmates slept, lived and ate at Golleschau who were being employed there.
A. Yes, that was nothing but the exceptional - only when we interchanged sick persons, unfit workers.
Q. Didn't work at Golleschau and come back in the evening?
A. No, They lived constantly at Golleschau.
Q. Did you know that medical experiments were being carried out on inmated in concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. When did you hear about that for the first time?
A. By the IMT trail.
Q. Did you know Dr. Vaernet?
A. No.
Q. Did you at any time hear his name?
Q. No.
Q. Did you knew that a special action was going on in the concentration camps, namely the Euthanasia program of the Germany Reich under action 14F13?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any knowledge whatsoever about Euthanasia Program of the German Reich.
A. No.
Q. I shall now deal with a different point, namely the Reinhardt action. In order to explain my questions quite clearly I would like to direct the Tribunal's attention to the introduction of statements made by the Prosecution according to which Dr. Boberman knew of those horrible things going on and also participated in them. It is on page 58 and 91 and 110 of the German record which statement is given by the Prosecution.
Did you in any way participate in the deportation of Jews which according to the Prosecution's contention is said to have taken place within the framework of the Reinhardt action?
A. No.
Q. Did you have knowledge of those things, namely, that such measures were being carried out under that name.
A. No.
Q. Did you in any way participate in exploitation of Jewish labor or Jewish industry.
A. No.
Q. Did you have any knowledge about it, that under the term Reinhardt action such measures were being taken?
A. No.
Q. Did you in any way participate in seizing property from the Jews?
A. No.
Q. Did you have knowledge of the fact that under the term Reinhardt action such measures were being made?
A. No.
Q. Where did the funds come from the plants which were subordinated to the Office will which were in charge of?
A. I received money for the largest part from the German Reich. That is to say, the Reich Finance Ministry and several other Reich Agencies. And, in smaller parts I received credit from the Dresdner Bank, Swiss Bank and the DWB furnished the Capital.
Q. What were the amounts of the credits which you received from the Reich Finance Ministry, Dresdner Bank, Swiss Bank Union.
A. The main credit of Reich Finance Ministry amounted to 20 million Reichmarks the credit from the Dresdner Bank from 1940 to 1941 amounted to approximately 7 to 3 million Reichmarks. I have no figures about the entire total number of other enterprises which received Reich funds and I imagine those things amounted to several million marks.
Q. Were the funds as put at your disposal by those agencies sufficient or did you have any financial difficulties in your enterprise?
A. I was not in any financial distress. The amounts of money which I received and credits which were granted me by the banks were definitely sufficient in order to enable me to carry out the tasks put to me. In the Eastern German Construction Material Company the funds, which I kept entirely separate from the other funds, I was able to employ or use or invest several million marks in the winter months because I didn't need that money. My bank connections gave me a personal credit which credit I didn't use to its full extent later on. And I know, for instance, the bank director with whom I had to deal directly in 1942 or 1943 repeatedly told me that he would gladly give me additional credit as he did in 1940 and 41.
It might seem of importance that the credit which was given me by the Swiss Bank was given me without my having asked for it and only in connection with the purchase of the Golleschau shares. As the terms were rather good I accepted the credit although at the time I didn't have any immediate need for the money. The affiliating companies of the Dresdner Bank also gave me every reasonable credit I asked for. I worked together with the czech Shisnowtschenka Bank in Prague which also placed Certain funds at the disposal of the German Construction Material Company.
Q. Did your local garrison administration in Lublin also belong to the Reich Administration and Reich Agencies?
A. Yes.
Q. What is a garrison administration?
A. It was responsible to supply troops with billeting equipment, money and hospitals. That is how in Lublin also within which area the SS troops were going through rehabilitation course. Such local administration was set up in other words this was part of the army Administration.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess until Monday at 0930.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 Monday morning.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 August 1947, 0930 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
DR. HANS BOBERMIN - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q On a Friday we had stopped with Point 3 of the action, namely the taking of the credit by the garrison administration in Lublin. What did the credit amount to, which credit you had received from the garrison administration in Lublin?
A 1.2 million zlotys.
Q How did this credit come about?
A In order to provide the troops in the east with construction material, and particularly with cement, I had leased a cement factory. That was the most eastern cement factory which was within the areas of the boundaries of Germany. That plant had extreme difficulties with transports when transporting coal, and there were also difficulties as far as procurement of spare parts were concerned for machines and similar things. That was the reason why that plant at the time never did reach its full capacity.
Several suggestions were made to me by several circles to take over that plant because within my large administration I was in a better position to provide that plant with the necessary equipment. I did that early in 1943. The garrison administration in Lublin, as one of the most garrison administrations of the east, of course was interested, very much interested in this factory.
It was usual in Germany that managers who were in charge of plants which were working for the interest of the Wehrmacht would receive certain credits from the Wehrmacht. I know, for instance, from my activity in Hungary in the Manfred Weiss Works that those enterprises received credits amounting to twenty or thirty millions, which later on had to be deducted and accounted for. That is the reason why the garrison administration at that time gave the credits so that I could procure construction material for the troops, and I accepted that credit.
Q What did they tell you when you received that credit where that money came from?
A Nothing whatsoever was said about the origin of the money when we received the credits. It is not usual anyway that one tells you where the money comes from, particularly when a person issuing the credit is a public treasury.
Q Did you know that you were receiving money and that money was coming from the Reinhardt Action?
A No.
Q This money which you received, did that money originate in the Reinhardt Action?
A I couldn't tell you that. The money came from the garrison administration account or from the garrison treasury in Lublin, which, according to my knowledge, received its money from the Reich just like any other Wehrmacht treasury. When later on I was told to pay back that money to a special account called Reinhardt Fund, this only need mean that was used as a transfer office, or agents, transfer account possibly.
Q Were there any circumstances given when you received that credit which you could have gained the impression that money came from the Reinhardt Action?
A No. When I accepted the credits I did not even know the term "Reinhardt Action".
Q Would you please take a look at Document NO-1015, Exhibit No. 451, as contained in Document Book No. XVI on Page 92 of German document book and 93 of the English document book - on Page 93, your Honor, of the English document book. Was that letter signed by you, Witness?
A Yes.
Q How did this letter come about?
A I was informed that the credit had to be paid back. The time when I had to pay it back was sort of surprising to me because I thought I could keep the credit until autumn. Of that year, as the agency for the repayment of the credit, I was told that it was the WVHA to receive that, the man of the Main Treasury, Hauptsturmfuehrer-Melmer, M-e-l-m-e-r.
Q Who was the SS-Obersturmfuehrer Wippern as mentioned in that letter?
A Wippern was the man in charge of the garrison administration in Lublin, and he was a IV-A with the SS-Police Leader in Lublin.
Q What do you mean by IV-A, Witness?
A A IV-A, is an administrative leader or administrative officer of a military unit. That is starting from a battalion upwards.
Q What were your thoughts which you had with reference to the term, "Reinhardt Action"?
A I couldn't tell you that for sure today. After all, do place yourself in my place at the time. At that time I was overburdened with work. It was in the spring, in other words, at a time when the plants had to start working all over again, and where the entire workload of the entire year had formed a deadlock. At the time I did a lot of traveling so that I couldn't very well take care of all my work in my office, and I could only do that for a short period of time during the week. Apart from that at the time I had a number of honorary activities which I had to take care of within the framework of the economic units, Wirtschaftsverbaende. I worked, for instance, in the cement unit. I was also a member of one of the advisory boards of the brick factories, and I became a member of the industry and commercial chamber in Posen, and I had a close cooperation with the professional associations.
All those activities of mine at the time took up quite a bit of my time.
The only thing that was interesting and important for me at the time was that the credit had to be paid back. The Reinhardt Action for me at the time was nothing but the name for an account which was of no importance nor meaning to me. At the time there were so many actions, sometimes conscription programs, sometimes they were construction projects, there were so many of them that the term "action" was nothing unusual for me.
For instance, at the time there was the Action Unrest, Unruh, U-n-r-u-h. That meant that all men who could fight in the front line would have to be taken out of the plants and sent to the front line. There was the Action Loewe which meant the Atlantic Wall project, the Atlantic ports for fortifications. At the time we also had the eastern fortification program in the east, and then we had the eastern road construction project and similar projects, and it is quite possible that somehow I thought that name, that term, "Reinhardt Action", was closely connected with the eastern projects. I already stated on Friday that I had quite a personal credit with my own bank and that therefore it wouldn't have been too much trouble for me to receive all sorts of credits from those banks. It would have been incomprehensible why I was to throw away my good name into something which was nothing at all, so that instead of getting the high interest of the garrison treasury I would get lower interest from the bank.
Q Would you also know on the basis of this order received about the measures which took place within the Reinhardt Action or as part of the Reinhardt Action?
A No.
Q Witness, I shall show you now Document NO-1005 which is Exhibit 390 as contained in Document Book No. XIV on pages 49 and 50 of the German, and 51 of the English document book. This document also was introduced by the Prosecution in order to show your partici pation in the Reinhardt Action.
This letter of the 29th of January, 1943, is it signed by you?
A Yes.
Q What was the activity that those three auditors were to carry out as contained in the letter?
A They were to be used by me as commercial collaborators, either as bookkeepers or as auditors. I am also Writing that I was in a dilemna at the time because I had an insufficient number of collaborators, and the information that Herr Dr. Hohberg was to turn over a few of his auditors to me was very pleasant for me.
Q Those three auditors, were they to be employed for any of the enterprises of the Reinhardt Action?
A No, they were to be used in my plants, either the Eastern German Construction Company or with the Klinker Cement Factory.
Q Did you receive the letter of the 9th of February, 1943?
A Yes, I received it.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, he just received, it; he didn't sign it.
THE COURT: There is nothing in either of these documents about the Reinhardt Fund.
DR. GAWLIK: I absolutely agree with you, Your Honor, but the Prosecution introduced that letter on page 1935 of the record to prove that Dr. Bobermin participated in the Reinhardt Action. Personally I can't see anything about the Reinhardt Action in that letter either. I can't understand it. I absolutely agree with Your Honor.
THE COURT: I suppose it is because Globocnik's name is mentioned in the letter.
DR. GAWLIK: Well, maybe. But Globocnik, after all - well, we don't know if he participated in the Reinhardt Action. If the name Globocnik is mentioned this does not necessarily mean that it is a Reinhardt Action.
MR. ROBBINS: I don't think there is any use for the Prosecution to belabor the point here.
Dr. Hohberg testified About his auditors being sent out to Globocnik.
TEE COURT: To Lublin?
MR. ROBBINS: To Lublin, yes.
THE COURT: For the purpose of auditing the records?
MR. ROBBINS: I am not sure how far Dr. Hohberg testified about the Reinhardt Fund. He knew that they were sent to Lublin, however.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, but Dr. Bobermin did not send his auditors over there.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Did you gain knowledge of the Reinhardt Action by that letter?
A No, nothing is mentioned about the Reinhardt Action.
Q What did you imagine that those special tasks were which were being taken care of by Dr. Globocnik and Dr. Horn; what did you imagine they were?
A Here again I have to give you the same answer as before. I thought very little about it, if any. The main important part for me was that the auditors I did request had been sent to me. The words "special task" at the time were used quite a bit. One gladly used that expression in order to be able to show off with it. That was used when somebody did something outside of the framework of his activities by receiving a special order. If, for instance, the man in charge of any construction agency had received the order by one of his superiors to buy a basket of apples for his superior, then immediately he spoke of a "special task" in order to cover himself in a mysterious way. The words "special task" at the time was not a very important matter.
Q What do you know about Globocnik's activity?
A I knew of Globocnik, that he was a Police and SS-Officer in Lublin. I knew also that he was a special delegate for Himmler in order to establish SS and Police strong points in the occupied eastern territories. It was in that capacity that he came within my field of sight, because somehow he had some trouble with the WVHA.
He had trouble with the WVHA because the construction measures after all fell within the scope of the WVHA. That again was one of those "special tasks" in brackets, which had nothing to do with his activity as SS and Police Leader in Lublin.
Q Did you know at the time that Globocnik was playing an important part in the evacuation of Jews and in the administration of Jewish property?
A No.
Q What did you know about Dr. Horn's activity?
A I knew of Dr. Horn that he was a business manager of the O-s-t-i-, Osti.
Q. What did you know about the Osti?
A. I only heard about the Osti through conversation. It was alleged to be an enterprise which was established in order to carry out repair work, patching up on Wehrmacht uniforms, etc., in the East in order to avoid transporting all those uniforms to the Reich for repairs.
Q. The prosecution stated that you knew of the "dark business" which was being carried out by the Osti, is that correct?
A. No, whatever I knew about the Osti I just told you.
Q. Take a look at Document Book No. 17, Document NO-554. It is on pages 43 to 54 in both the English and the German document books, I believe.
Did you receive that letter, witness, which is contained on page 42?
A. On page 43 there is a letter which I wrote, Mr. Defense counsel. Do you mean the letters on pages 54 and 58?
Q. Yes, indeed.
A. Yes, I received those letters.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the exhibit number, please?
DR. GAWLIK: It is exhibit number 448, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. In connection with other documents using the same number, 554 it is shown that this reduction had to be apdi for by the Reinhardt Fund. What did you know about that?
A. I only gained knowledge of these other documents here in these trials for the first time. They were neither submitted to me nor did I gain any knowledge of their contents. I only received those two circular letters, and I received the letter of the fifth of July, 1943, which is contained on page 42 of the German Document Book. I answered that letter by saying that my firms did not participate in taking credits from the SS Savings Communities connected with the Red Cross. In the two circular letters which I received, and which you, Mr. Defense Counsel just mentioned a few minutes ago were only speaking about credits from both the Red Cross and the SS Savings Communities--but nothing is mentioned about a Reinhardt Fund now a Reinhardt Action.
As I stated before, this letter did not interest me too much because I did not participate in taking credits from those two agencies.
Q. Did you hear the posen speech of Himmler which took place in October, 1943?
A. No, as far as I knew at the time only Gruppenfuehrers and Obergruppenfuehrers could participate in this conference.
Q. Did Herr Pohl at any time speak about the contents of the speech with you?
A. No.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Were you in posen at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't hear anything about the speech?
A. I only heard that a conference took place in posen, a conference of the SS generals, with Himmler. According to my knowledge, there were two much conferences. I didn't know what was discussed in that conference, nor did I know anything about the speech.
Q. I don't suppose they had a copy of the speech in the paper the next morning, did they?
A. No; it was probably reported in the papers that Himmler was in posen. That is quite possible. But I found out about that through somebody else. But I don't believe anything was published in the paper about the contents of the speech.
Q. No probably not.
Did you see Pohl in Posen at the time of the speech?
A. Yes, indeed. I saw Herr Pohl every time when he was in posen when I was present. I picked him up at the station, and I drove him back to the station; that was my duty, as one of his subordinates.
Q. But he didn't tell you what a shocking speech Himmler had made?