A. No, Herr Pohl spoke on principle only about matters which concerned our office and our work. Our relationship at the time was limited to official matters only.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Did anybody else at the time about the contents of the posen speech with you?
A. No.
Q. I shall now speak about the subject of Hungary. In your affidavit you stated that in the month of April, 1944, you were transferred to Hungary in order to work there as an SS Economist. Is that correct, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. I shall now show you a document, NO-2128, witness. It is contained in Document Book No. 18, on page 88. It is Exhibit No. 331.
THE PRESIDENT: That isn't in Document Book 18.
MR. ROBBINS: It is repeated in Document Book 18; it is also in Book 12.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I see. page 68, Document NO-2128, is it?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Were you at any time an SS Economist in the Occupied Territories, including the Government General?
A. No.
Q. What were the tasks which you had as an SS Economist in Hungary?
A. My task was exactly the same as that of an intendant of a Wehrmacht branch; of an intendant in the army, of the air force, or of the navy, we were commonly subordinated to the Wehrmacht intendant, who also provided us with funds. The Wehrmacht intendant also gave us the regulations concerning the expenditure of those amounts.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Was the witness SS Economic Administrator in Hungary? What was his title? what was his office in Hungary?
DR. GAWLIK: Witness -
WITNESS: SS Econonic in Hungary.
THE PRESIDENT: What year was that?
WITNESS: That was in the spring of 1944 until the end of the war.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, SS Economic Administrator -- is that the right word?
WITNESS: I am not quite sure about the term, your Honor. I am not quite sure whether the English word, represents the correct translation of my task. It is possibly more correct to say "Quartermaster," but, if Your Honor please, SS Wirtschafter actually means economist.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I know that in the documents "Wirtschafter" is sometimes translated "SS-Economist" and other times "SS-Economic Administrator". It is the same term.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the German word?
MR. ROBBINS: Wirtschafter.
MR. MUSSMANNO: Were your duties equivalent to those which a quarter master would perform.
WITNESS: Yes, indeed, Your Honor. I had to supply the army for that branch of the Wehrmacht, the SS, and the Police in Hungary, and, therefore, I was connected with the administrative offices of the Honved Army. I received funds from the Wehrmacht Intendant who was in charge of all the Wehrmacht branches whom he had to supply. Furthermore, I had to procure the gasoline for the cars, vehicles, which, again I received from the quartermaster of the Plenipotentiary General in Hungary. Furthermore, I was in charge of the PX and clothing, and I had to procure all those things; and I received those things through the supply lines running in from the Reich. The PX articles were also in part purchased in Hungary, particularly as far as wine and similar things were concerned, which Hungary had quite a bit of. The food was received from the Hungarian Honved stores. All those regulations are laid down, so-called "Gitterborg agreement" which the OKW concluded in February 1944.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.- Did you supply the food also? Was that part of your tasks -the food for the army?
A.- Yes, it worked out the following way; namely, that I didn't have to provide the food in a material sense, only fundamentally, to carry on the negotiations. The SS divisions received the food from the Honved stocks and stores on the basis of special coupons which I received, and all I had to do was to carry out negotiations with the Honved ministry and fix centrally what kind of food would be sent, both according to its kind and according to its number, to the SS and Police units. Of course, there were certain discrepancies then because the so-called German menu was a little bit different than the Hungarian menu. There were a few additional factors, that the Hungarian soldier comes from the country, for the greatest part, and that he was also receiving a little bit of food out there in the country, which did not quite apply to the German soldiers. Then, it was also part of my tasks to carry out the duties as carried out by the Clain Officer in an American army. In other words, I had to care for the claims which were brought before us by the civilian population, due to damages which were caused by one of our units. For instance, if a car of a vehicle ran into a window and destroyed it, or if a building was destroyed, then , of course, they came to see me and my agency, and I took care of them.
DR. GAWLIK: In order to explain all those things stated by the defendant Bobermin, I should like to direct your Honors' attention to Document NO-2128, which is Exhibit 331, which refers to the SS Economist in the Occupied Territories including the Government General. Therefore, you cannot very well apply this document to the activity of Dr. Bobermin. It is something entirely different. Hungary was not occupied territory.
MR. ROBBINS: I object to that statement of Defense Counsel, and ask that it be stricken from the record. This defendant is the best person to testify to that, and I would like Counsel to ask the defendant that question.
DR. GAWLIK: (Attorney for the Defendant Bobermin) All I wanted to show, Your Honors, was what the line of introduction of evidence is on the part of the defendant.
Q (BE DR. GAWLIK) In Document NO-2128, Exhibit No. 331, as stated before, in Document Book No. XVIII, page 95, there is contained under IV under paragraph "c", "Looted or Secured raw material are the property of the Reich." As SS Economist in Hungary, did you ever loot anything? Did you have a booty? Did you receive a booty?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: Receive a what?
THE INTERPRETER: Booty, captured material, Your Honor.
Q Were you in charge of a concentration camp or labor camp in Hungary as an SS Economist?
A No.
Q In your affidavit, dated the 16th of January, 1947, which is Exhibit No. 19, Document Book No. I, on page 111 of Document Book I, you mentioned the trusteeship contract with the Manfred Weiss Plants. What was your activity and your task with the Trusteeship Administration of the Manfred Weiss Works?
A My task was to act as a commercial advisor for the Hungarian Management there.
Q Were you Trusteeship Administrator?
A No.
Q Were the Manfred Weiss Works looted?
A No.
Q Did you give any protection and help to any of the members of the Manfred Weiss Works or members of the Staff of the Manfred Weiss Works who were in Hungary?
A Yes, I was able to do that on several occasions and I even had to do that. For instance, the Manager of the Aircraft Plant was arrested by the Hungarian Police, because he had allegedly committed sabotage. We had negotiations which lasted for hours and hours and I finally succeeded in having him released and placed under my protection.
During the negotiations which took place with the Hungarian Police in the next few days, the innocence of that manager was proven. I also helped Dr. Billitz who was a Jewish manager of the plant. I had to protect him currently from the attacks on the part of the Hungarian Police and then a further Hungarian Manager who was still in office was to be arrested in my presence on one occasion. He was alleged to have hidden rifles and Army weapons of all kinds. I even succeeded in stopping that. Finally, we released one manager of the enterprise who was in one of the jails in Budapest.
Q In your affidavit you stated, "I received my job as collaborator of the WVHA." I would like to ask you, therefore, did you receive any instructions or orders from the WVHA or from Pohl, while you were in the Trusteeship Administration of the Manfred Weiss Works?
A No, I received my instructions from the Trustee, Dr. Becher.
Q Did you receive any payment for your activity in the Manfred Weiss Works?
A No.
Q Now I would like to ask you a few final questions, particularly in connection with Count 4 of the indictment. What was your political activity up to 1939?
A I was brought up to think liberally. My parents were conscientious followers of the Weimar Republic. My step-father, with whom I had very close and cordial relationship, was a member of the Socialist Democratic Party, and he was extremely active in the Socialist Trade Unions. Personally, I was a member of no party whatsoever. The programs of the 30 parties which existed at the time did not have any attraction for me. For me the individual personality was of importance, independent from their political attitude and their membership in any of the parties, I highly esteemed men like Jarres, Stresemann, Severing, and Bruening. Of course, I did appreciate quite a bit Herr Dr. Schacht as an economist. All these men were members of various parties.
I am a Socialist in my economic attitude. However, I am not a member of doctrine, and I don't believe in a doctrine. Socialism for me is not a system, but rather a moral doctrine, and I am also of the opinion that this was only caused by the situation in Germany at the time. I never did believe, nor do I believe today, that there is a political or economic system which could apply to the entire world. This is my individualistic idea, namely to consider every human being and to appreciate him as such, regardless of his political ideas and his religion. I stick to this up to this date.
Q Were you a member of the NSDAP?
A Yes.
Q When did you join the NSDAP?
A May 1933.
Q What were your reasons for joining the Party?
A Up to the month of January, 1933, the NSDAP was a party just like any other party. After that date, the idea was propagated that the NSDAP was not to be a party any longer, but, rather, a collective movement for all those Germans who were ready to remove Germany from a political and economic distress. At the time I didn't have a very high position, but my position was somehow exposed, because I was the Business Manager of an Academical Professional Union. The larger part of my colleagues and the business managers of befriended unions had already joined the party at that time and many people told me again and again that I simply couldn't refuse to agree with them by joining the Party. They told me the NSDAP changed entirely in its character. I was no longer a fighting organization; it was a collective movement. The parties in the middle level and central level also advised people to join the NSDAP. A number of brilliant men of the Weimar Republic as Dr. Schacht, Schwerin-Krosigk, Dr. Guertner, and others, as for instance, Dr. Maier, who is the Ministerial President of BadenWuerttemberg -- all these people at the time offered their co-operation.
The cooperated all the time and today again they are playing an important part in politics. After I thought it over for quite a while, I joined the Party at the latest day I could. I wanted to show them that I was willing to cooperate. It wasn't very easy for me to make that decision at the time, but I did want to have the possibility of working with that particular unit of which I was a member. In the meantime, my step-father was on trial to be released, due to his political unresponsibility. I cannot deny here that there were certain material motives, which played a part in there, namely the following: That I was able to help my father at the time, who meant quite a lot to me and whom I owed much. I did not have any activities in the framework of the party. I did not hold and office.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Gawlik, I would like to ask a question. Witness, you said you joined the NSDAP, that you joined the National Socialist Party, just like you would join any other party. Do I understand from that, you regarded the National Socialist Party just a political party, as one of the 30 that you referred to that didn't have a more set definite program than any of the others?
THE WITNESS: I believe I was misunderstood, Your Honor. What I meant to say was, that up to January, 1933, the NSDAP was also a party just like any other party . After January, 1933, that is to say, after the date of the so-called seizure of power, the idea was propagated that the Party was no longer a party, but, rather a collective movement.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: But when you joined in May, 1933, the National Socialist Party had already given evidence of a totalitarian movement, had it not?
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO (continued):
A Yes, there was such a thing at the time undoubtedly. The entire German youth was against the Party at the time and we had said finally some movement has to prevail.
Q What was the date of the Reichstag fire?
A I couldn't tell you that for certain but it must have been in March or April 1933.
Q So you joined even after that act had taken place?
A Yes, that is correct, but we looked upon the Reichstag fire differently than it was looked upon by the people abroad. We were told that the Reichstag fire was started by Communists, and the trial which took place immediately after the fire showed, according to press reports, that this actually was a fact.
Q Did you know that the Communist members of the Reichstag were forcibly prevented from attending the sessions of the German parliament, the Reichstag?
A I couldn't tell you that for certain but I assume it, because the Communist Party at the time was a strong party indeed, but it was rejected by many.
Q I distinctly had in my notes your statement that you joined the NSDAP because it was a party like any other party and that's what caused me to make these queries which I have just now concluded.
A I don't quite agree with that and believe I have rectified the matter with my statements so far, your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q As far as the question with which Judge Musmanno is concerned with reference to the Reichstag not allowing Communist members to participate what did you know or what was the propaganda at the time about the Communist Party?
AAt the time it was stated that the Communists wanted to overthrow the Government.
Q Can you give me details about the propaganda at the time?
A If I remember correctly I believe that the Reichstag fire was brought into connection with those intentions of the Communist Party.
Q What do you know about the propaganda which was made concerning arms that had been found - weapons?
A I couldn't tell you that in detail, but it is possible that certain things were written about it.
Q In Berlin?
A Yes. May I add that at the time we were impressed by the fire it was stressed again and again that the Government had come into power legally and constitutionally and that when Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor, he swore to uphold the Constitution. If things turned out differently than we expected and imagined, then the whole reason can be found in the fact that the law granting extraordinary powers was adopted and always extended. This law of extraordinary powers, according to my knowledge, was accepted by all the parties with the exception of the Socialist Democratic Party. The Socialist Democratic Party at the time made possible the adoption of that law by withholding its vote. I believe this shows the attitude at the time, both from the point of view of the people and that of the leading political circles. The leading political circles were at the end of their wits and couldn't find any other way.
Q Were you a member of any affiliated organization?
A Yes.
Q Which affiliated organization?
A The SS.
Q Why did you join the SS?
A I did not join the SS out of inner conviction but rather because certain outside circumstances forced me to join. In the autumn of 1933 the Student's League wrote to their members and, even to former students asking them to join one of those affiliated organizations. That was not only a wish on their part but it was an order. Whoever did not comply with that order was immediately dismissed from the Students' Leagues.
At the time we had the choice of joining the SA, SS, or NSKK. I thought it over at the time which of the three organizations I should join. I discussed the matter with one of my student colleagues who had been an officer in the first World War on front line duty and who had been working in a SS Signal Detachment. He told me at the time that I should join the Sturmbann (detachment), that we would only deal with technical signal equipment and no politics were discussed there at all. He told me that due to his position of a Sturmbann adjutant he would help me to get a good position. And there was the additional factor that at that time, in other words in the autumn of 1933, there was some trouble between my organization and the German Lawyers' League. I became the manager of the President of the Lawyers League, and we had a very disagreeable discussion which was not ended by threats pronounced by one of the members of one of the organizations who was very strong. Finally the political investigation of my step-father at the time also reached a point where it was necessary to support him.
Q What was the highest rank you attained in the Signal Sturm?
A I was Untersturmfuehrer in the Signal Sturm. With my promotion to Untersturmfuehrer I succeeded in getting a transfer to the SS Main Office because I was no longer in a position to serve in the Army and was only carried on the list of the SS Main Office. In January 1939 I was promoted to Obersturmfuehrer.
Q What was the activity you carried out in the SS Signal Sturm?
A The men in the Signal Sturm were trained in the use of technical signal equipment. Therefore, they had to lay telephone wires, they had to establish telephone connections, that had to service field "walky talkies". Those parts of the Signal Sturm were mounted according to principles which had been developed during the First World War in connection with Signal Sturm, etc. The Leader of the Signal Sturm was subordinated to the man in charge of the SS-Reiter Sturm in Berlin, Brandner.
Q You said that in 1939 you served no longer in the Army. What was the reason you were promoted to an SS officer if you were no longer in a position to do service in the Army?
A Since 1936 approximately, a large number of SS members received their promotions if they had a higher position within the administration or economy. A large number of officials were also taken into the SS and immediately received officer ranks. It was within the framework of that action that I became SS-Sturmfuehrer in the German Gemeindetag. At the time the SS did have the desire to make certain connections between the SS itself and the economy and administration.
Q How long were you with the SS?
A Until I had to join the Waffen-SS in January 1940. Then the membership of the Party rested according to Army regulations - membership in both the Party and affiliated organizations.
Q Were you a member of the SS which guarded the concentration camps?
A No.
Q What was your highest rank in the Waffen SS?
A Obersturmbannfuehrer. That corresponded to Oberfeldintendant in the administration of the Army.
Q What were the prerequisites for your receiving that rank?
A I received that rank both because of my background and sphere of tasks.
Q Were you an active officer of the Waffen-SS?
A No, I was a reserve officer.
Q For how long a period of time was your activity in the Waffen-SS intended?
A For the duration of the war.
Q Were you a full time SS officer?
A No, there were only full time SS officers in the General (Allgemeine) SS. Whoever was a full time officer had to be employed by the Reich Treasurer of the Party.
I never did receive any such employment nor did I ask for any such employment. The salary of a full time officer was fixed by the wage scale of the Party. May salary had been fixed on the basis of a private contract I had with my firm.
Q During you membership in the Waffen SS what was the agency which paid you?
A That depended on the particular period of time. At the beginning of the war I received a certain amount of money, from the City of Frankfurt on Main, which was to be used as an allowance for my family. Furthermore my firm paid a certain additional amount. I received my army pay from the army treasury which was competent for me. That was my army pay and a certain allowance for living expenses, and a certain allowance clothing. From the month of July, 1941, on I received my pay from the Eastern German Construction Material Company, based on the contract which I had concluded with them. In the course of the year of 1942 my salaries were paid by the Klinker Coment, Inc. I only carried on the business management of Eastern German Construction Material Company on a honorary basis from then on.
Q What was the legal nature of those contracts?
A They were working on service contracts as contained in private or civil law.
THE PRESIDENT: Were the contracts executed by Pohl on behalf of the industries?
THE WITNESS: The contract was countersigned by Herr Pohl in his capacity either as Trustee or as the business manager of the DWB.
Q (By Dr. Gawlik.) Did those contracts have any influence on your membership in the Waffen-SS or the General-SS?
A No. They had no influence whatsoever on that relationship. They were private contracts which only bound me to the firms, but there was no change whatsoever in the relationship towards the WaffenSS or the General-SS.
Q What was the result or the influence of those contracts, their legal importance?
A They were employment contracts with the respective firms, Mr. Defense Counsel. They represented the relationship between those firms and myself.
Q If you take a look at your contract which you had with the Eastern German Construction Material Company dated July, 1941, take a look at it and tell me what was the result of that contract, what was the influence it played?
A I was an employee of that firm.
Q And with reference to the payment of the family allowance, what happened then?
A The family allowance, of course, was eliminated then because I had a civilian income.
Q Was that the actual effect of the contract?
A Yes, correct.
Q Let's take a look at document 2162, Exhibit No. 452, as contained in Document Book No. XVI, on Page 94 of the German and Page 95 of the English Document Book. What do you have to say about the statements contained in that document? Correction, what do you have to say about your statements you made so far, about the results of those contracts, and what do you have to add to that?
A First of all it might be important to state that in the preamble, it is stated explicitly that I am a merchant and an economist with a diploma. In Other words, my private position is stressed here. Contracts of this kind were also concluded with many members of my civilian employees who were not members of the SS.
Q Your activity during the time, between 1941 and 1943, was extended in some way, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q Did your payment on your salaries change in anyway?
A No, my salary remained approximately the same. I received the same salary and the same allowance. It was only since August, 1943, that I received a special allowance for a child, as it was usual in Germany. At the same time, without my applying for it, without my trying to get it, I received a special pension and other additional funds.
This, of course, was only of practical importance for me for the duration of the war. I had no misgivings whatsoever about accepting this arrangement, which of course, would have given my family security, had anything happen to me. This arrangement at the time did not bind me to enterprise for the remainder of my life. In Paragraph 7 the contract provides explicitly that I have the possibility to resign at any time with a three months' notice. I have had long-term contracts before. I had a contract with the German Gemeindetag for a period of twelve years, plus a certain pension, and I had a long-term contract with the Deutsche Staedtereklame. At the time I had no misgivings whatsoever to resign from any positions or to break those contracts due to special circumstances, and I would have had that possibility also with this contract.
DR. GALIK: Your Honor, I believe that I have terminated the direct examination of Dr. Bobermin, and I only have a very few questions as defense counsel for Dr. Volk.
THE PRESIDENT: This would be a good time to take a recess before you start on Dr. Volk.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. GAWLIK (Attorney for Dr. Volk:
Q Witness, was Dr. Volk the Chief of Staff W, or was he chief W?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: I can't fit that question and that answer together. You asked if he was one or the other, and he says, "no." Do you mean he was neither one?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: I did not mean the alternative sense of this question but the cumulative one.
THE PRESIDENT: He was neither Chief of Staff W nor Chief W?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Could Dr. Volk give you any instructions as the man in charge of the Legal Department of Staff W, or as a prokurist of the DWB?
A No.
Q Could Dr. Volk give any instructions to the Legal Department of the Eastern German Construction Material Company?
A No.
Q Did you give Dr. Volk a recommendation to the man in charge of the Riding Unit of the SS in Berlin for the purpose of getting Dr. Volk a transfer to the Reiter-Standarte?
A Yes.
Q When did this happen?
A That must have been in the course of the year 1937. It must have been at the beginning of the year of in the middle of the year.
Q Was Dr. Volk actually transferred to the Reiter-Standarte?
A Yes, yes, as far as I know.
Q Can you tell us the exact time?
A I can't give you the exact time, but it must be the same time which I have mentioned before.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I have no further questions.
BY DR. HEIM (Attorney for the Defendant Hohberg):
Q Witness, I only have a very few questions to ask you. First of all, I would like to refer to Document NO-1216, Exhibit No. 58. It is contained in Document Book III of the indictment, on page 59 of the German text and on page 57 of the English text. It is a report about the trip to Lublin, Posen, and so on. The last paragraph of this document contains the following statement: "On the 7th of June, 1942, in the afternoon, the return trip took place by way of Posen. On the suggestion of Dr. Hohberg, a very detailed conference took place on the 8th of June 1942, in the morning with SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Bobermin, since SS Brigadefuehrer Globocnik wanted to lease a large cement plant with various brick works in the Government General." Witness, I would like to ask you in this connection, in what form did this conference take place which has been mentioned in this document?
AAs far as I can recall, it was a completely informal discussion which lasted only for a few minutes. I had the impression that the two gentlemen, just like any other guests who appeared at Posen occasionally, only wanted my advice on just where they could get the best breakfast. I was only very briefly informed. I do not know whether it was on Dr. May's or Dr. Hohberg's suggestion in a business sense that Globocnik was interested in leasing the cement plant, and that was not the only suggestion which was made to me by the Wehrmacht. They also asked me about various other things, and various duties.
Q Dr. Bobermin, did you take any action upon that?
A No, I didn't do anything at all at the time.
Q Dr. Hohberg testified here on the witness stand that he had sent a registered letter to you in which he informed you of the fact that he did not want to accept the appointment as a member of the Board of Supervisors, which had been suggested by Pohl without his knowledge, in the Easter German Construction Material Company. Can you still recall that?
A I cannot recall any letter of that nature. However, I do recall, and I recall rather precisely, that in connection with the composition of this Board of Supervisors in some way or another some objections were raised against Dr. Hohberg in this Board of Supervisors, because he was an auditor. That is all I can recall in that connection at the moment.
Q And now I have a final question to you, Dr. Bobermin: Did Dr. Hohberg ever give any instructions to you?
A No, I can't recall anything of that sort at all. I don't think so.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, I have no further questions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, what was your impression as to the position that Dr. Hohberg held with Staff W?
THE WITNESS: In Dr. Hohberg, I only saw an auditor and economic consultant of Pohl. Just what his relationship was to his other collaborators in the WVHA I was unable to see in detail, because I had been in the Main Office only six or eight times for a very short period of time.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Would Dr. Volk be in a better position to say what position the Defendant Hohberg held with Staff W than you?
THE WITNESS: Certainly. After all, Dr. Volk worked in Staff W.
DR. HEIM: In this connection I have one additional question.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Did you ever address Dr. Hohberg as the Chief of Staff W?
A I can't recall that. I don't think so, because Dr. Hohberg, as well as I, only had our contact in the economical sphere. He considered me to be a business manager of the enterprises and I considered him to be an economic collaborator of the DWB, and, in particular, he was an auditor.
DR. HEIM: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: No other questions by defense counsel? If not, the prosecution may cross-examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, you told us about all of the propaganda that you heard before you joined the Nazi Party. You said that this propaganda said that the Communists started the Reichstag Fire and that they said that Hitler seized power legally, and that the Nazi Party was just like all the other parties, and that it wasn't a party, that it was just a popular movement. Now, you had been a professor at the University of Rostock and had a doctors' degree in economics. You didn't believe all the propaganda that you heard, did you?
A I was a Doctor of Economic Science, but I was not a professor there, but I was only an assistant there.
Q That doesn't answer my question. Did you believe all this propoganda that you heard about the Nazi Party?
A I didn't believe everything we were told.
Q Did you agree with the principle of the Nazi Party with regard to the Jews?
A No.
Q Do you still consider yourself a Nazi today?
A I have never been a National Socialist in the sense as the prosecution described it.
Q Do you still think the Nazi Party is just like any other party?
A. Could you please repeat the question once more?
Q I will pass the question. You told us you thought the owners of these plants that you were operating in the East would some day return, they would claim their plants and the plants would be given back to them, is what you want us to believe?
A No, I didn't say that.
Q You didn't think they would return, did you?
A It was possible.