A Yes, I knew him.
Q You also knew he was killed in a concentration camp?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I only heard that from you. I only knew that Dr. Heilmann was in a very weak physical condition when he was released from a concentration camp. Exactly what happened, I don't know.
Q You know that Mr. Claussner was killed in Germany, you know, the leader of the Catholic Action in Germany?
A No, I don't know that either. I only know that he had died at the time -- are you referring to ministerial director? I only know that he lost his life at the time on the 30th of June 1934.
Q Was that mass killing?
A Yes, as far as I know that was mass murder. However, I don't know that exactly. I only know that he lost his life.
Q Was it a mass murder or not? You are a lawyer, and as far as I know -
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I object to this question. It is a legal question which the witness cannot possibly answer. After all, he is not a legal expert.
THE WITNESS: I am not a lawyer. I have never studied law.
MR. KEMPNER: Mr. President, the witness was asked before whether these acts could be compared with certain legal acts by American and other occupational authorities, so I think that this very simple question of whether he regards these killings as murder or not, he can answer whether he thinks they are. He studied law and received an honorary law decree as far as I know.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the term "murder" is not exclusively a legal one. It has a lay -- it has a meaning for laymen as well as for the professional man. He may answer the question.
BY MR. KEMPNER:
Q Was it murder or not?
A I was extremely shocked about what happened on the 30 of June 1934, and in general I considered this as constituting murder.
Q Now, when we had the conversation on July 18, you remember that we talked with each other? You remember?
A Yes, yes.
Q Didn't you answer my question of whether the eastern territories had been exploited in the sense of the word with the answer of yes?
A I believe at the time I also stated that they were used for war purposes, and that they were exploited. However, a lot was done for the eastern territories in the meantime. Afterall, we had to do a lot of reconstruction work and carry out large investments which were used in the eastern territories.
Q The investment which you put in, were these investments taken from the remaining property of the dead Jews and Poles, or did you get a loan from the United States or other territories?
A No; the funds, as far as I had disposal over them and as far as I was competent for that -- these funds only came from the profits in economy or the custodians of the enterprises which have been used. I don't know just where the other monies came from and how they were used.
Q So you used part of the confiscated property to improve such property, is that right?
A Yes. I have done that in numerous cases by adding additional construction, and in this particular I did this when I administered 200,000 municipal properties, I did not put their money into the Reich Treasury; but I used this money in order to repair the properties and apartments, and so on.
Q And you know -- and you told me -- that all this property came from Jews and Poles who were no longer there, or who had been killed, is that correct?
You told me the other day.
A I didn't understand your question.
Q The other day you told me that the material or that the property you were the administrator of was the former property of Jews and Poles who were no longer in Poland for one reason or another?
A Yes, they had fled, and I did not know what happened to them afterwards.
Q Did you think that your superior, Hermann Goering, would ship these Jews and Poles back to Poland in order to take over their property again? Did you think so ?
A I didn't think that Hermann Goering would do that, but that large numbers of Poles who were still alive would return -- that I did believe, I was expecting that.
Q Did you think your associate Mr. Himmler would send these Jews and Poles back to Poland in order that they should take over their property again?
A I did believe that peace would arrive at some time or other, and that the Poles would return home just like other people who had fled or emigrated during the war.
Q But you knew these Poles, and you knew, at least in 1944, as you say now, that a lot of Poles and Jews were killed by the SS and by other people in the East?
A I heard that about Jews at the end of 1944; in I did not hear that with regard to Poles. I only heard occasionally about Poles in 1940 that executions took place. However, I did not know the reason for their being executed, and I did not hear any details about that.
Q I am not interested in the reasons, but you realized that they wouldn't come back since they were shot, is that clear?
A I cannot put it in that form. I did not think over whether every individual owner would return, but I thought that the overwhelming majority of the Poles who had fled would return. I considered that to be a certainty.
Q You suggest to this Court that the expelled Poles and Jews would come back in their majority, is that the idea?
A Yes, I expected that most of them. I did not think over the matter so precisely, but I still thought that a large number would return. I considered that to be a certainty.
Q Now, if you thought so, why did you distribute part of this property to the Germans who came from other parts of Europe to these territories?
A I only distributed very little -- almost nothing, and I had to turn over part of these enterprises because this was prescribed by law. I had to give it to the Baltic Germans and to Germans from several other territories. I could not dispose over that solely. It was specified by law that the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom abroad had to do that, and since the war was going on for such a long period of time and the trusteeship agency could not continually work with foreigners, I complied with the request that the Baltic Germans should be given a number of properties since they had nothing to do, and they were just sitting around, and I had to do that because this was provided by law.
Q Did you make, together with your associate Himmler, directives for the distribution of such property to other people, to Germans coming back to these areas?
A I don't know that anymore. From the legal department I would constantly receive a list of directives issued by the Main Trusteeship for the East, and it is quite possible that in the legal provisions which I had to carry out I may have worked together with the agency of the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom, and that I helped in issuing such an administrative directive. However, I cannot recall that fact so precisely anymore today.
Q I ask you again -- and you may answer this yes or no--did you sign directives -- executive directives -- for the distribution of this stolen property together with Himmler, or not?
A I cannot recall ever having signed, together with Himmler. I may have signed for this in a representative capacity as the Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom. I may have issued directives in this way.
Q You didn't sign any decrees together with Himmler?
A I didn't say that. I only stated that I couldn't recall that so precisely at the moment. I don't remember it so precisely that I can answer it with yes or no. I would have to look at the material which has been collected and published.
Q Then let me refresh your memory: On February 20, 1940, you signed an official directive. At the left side, "Dr. Winkler") at the right side, "Heinrich Himmler".
A I don't know that any more and I can't recall it at the moment. But if it is there, I must have done it, yes. I don't know.
Q And at that time you made the decision how to distribute such property to the other people. You remember now?
A No.
Q We will turn it over later to the Court as an exhibit. I have no translation as yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have the original, Doctor Kempner?
Q May I present to the witness, this document, and he may answer the question. Mr. Winkler, are you this "Dr. Winkler" whose name is under this directive?
A Yes.
Q And you recognize the signature of Heinrich Himmler?
A I would recognize it, yes. May I please take a look at the contents?
Q No, I'll ask you later about it.
Is that the only decree you signed together with your associate Heinrich Himmler?
A I don't know that.
Q You think there might be others?
A I don't know that. I can only state that all these things were not done in secret -- but publicly. And if they are in existence, then I have to admit it; but I can't recall it now.
Q What was the amount of property you were the administrator of? How many billions did you administer?
A I cannot express it in general. I have never received any precise figures about it, or statistics. The Polish State property went through the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East as a temporary measure, and that was turned over to the competent Reich minister. I do not have any statistics about that. Part of this was included but it included a number of billions.
Q You received a lot of congratulations when you were appointed to the biggest job of administering foreign property, is that right?
A I didn't understand your question.
Q Did you receive a lot of congratulations when you were appointed to this job as an administrator of -
A I can't recall that anymore.
Q Before you received this job, had you been involved in the Aryanization of Jewish property?
A No, I had nothing to do with that.
Q Were you involved in selling many millions of property of the Jewish-owned Ullstein newspaper company to the company of a certain Adolf Hitler, who was the owner of the Franz Eher Publishing House in Munich? Yes or no.
A That was early in 1934. At that time, by order of the Reich Government, I had negotiations about the stock of the Ullstein Publishing House, with Goebbles, and the Reich Government purchased this publishing house by taking over several obligations for the sum of eight and a half million marks.
Q So you bought Ullstein for Goebbels, is that correct?
A For the Reich Government.
Q Who was the chief of the Reich Government at that time?
AAt the time I received my order from Goebbels.
Q That is enough.
Who was the Reich Chancellor at that time?
A Hitler.
Q Did the Ullstein's ever see any money out of that deal? Yes or no?
A The Ullsteins received a sum in cash at the rate which was specified in the purchasing contract.
Q And, at the same time, they were expelled, is that correct, and the money came to a confiscation -
A No, no, on the contrary. The Ullstein family repeatedly turned to me with a request that I should help them to take foreign currency out of the country.
Q -- to the United Stated - yes or no?
A I complied with these requests. I recommended them, and, as far as I know, these requests were approved.
Q Did they get any money? Yes, or no. -- As far as your knowledge is concerned.
A The Ullsteins?
Q Yes, in the Polish country.
A Large sums were returned so that they could be transferred into the foreign exchange abroad.
Q So you don't know whether they ever received any money.
A I don't know that.
Q In how many cases did you buy German newspapers for the propaganda ministry after Hitler came into power?
A I can't tell you the exact figure any more. There may have been 20 to 25 publishing houses.
Q So you turned over 20 to 25 publishing houses to the Goebbels administration, is that correct?
A I bought publishing houses later on, not for the Government any more, but I approached them directly for the Reich Administrator for Publishing matters in the German Reich.
Q One last question: Did you realize that you were the biggest administrator of property taken from dead Jews and expelled Poles? Yes, or no.
A No, I did not receive it from dead Jews or from dead Poles, but I was appointed as a trustee of the Polish Property that accumulated to a rather large extent, and I administered my position to the best of my belief and knowledge, just as it was my duty as a trustee.
Q I just go a slip from my colleague and I would like to ask you in addition to this question: what was the general -- how many billions did you administer?
A You mean millions?
Q Billions.
A I did not take care of this administration all at the same time. Some of it was completed. There were a number of billions. However, I never compiled any statistics about that.
Q It was all existing from Jewish and Polish property in Poland, is that correct? Was there any other property?
A Yes, not in Poland, but after all I only administered those territories which had been incorporated by the German Reich. I had nothing to do with the General Government and with the administration of the property there.
Q How many billions, we would like to know?
A There may have been 15 to 20 billions, but, as I have stated before, I have only administered these and I only evaluated the money when this was necessary for economic for industrial reasons. Otherwise, I never carried out any evaluation of these enterprises, so I can give you any value.
Q It was about 20 to 30 billions, is that correct, approximately?
A I can't overlook the entire matter now, but, if everything is evaluated, it may have been approximately 20 billions.
Q You held it that the dead one and the other Polish families would get it back. This is your final contention?
A Well, here we are not dealing with the question that such amounts were to be repaid. After all, nothing was actually utilized, only very small enterprises, very small properties were used and here I hoped that the Poles who returned alive would receive it back. Towards the end of 1944 I heard what happened to the Jews.
Q Your testimony is then that therefore they couldn't get it back any more, is that correct?
A Well, not if they were dead.
BY JUDGE PHILIPPS:
Q Witness, did I understand you to say in cross-examination that after you had taken over this property and you were holding it as a trustee that you transferred a part of this property to the German Nationals who had been brought in from other countries into Poland and turned this property over to them as Germans in this foreign country and that the Germans came from the Baltic countries to Poland, is that correct?
A Yes, after all, they were there already at the beginning and later on I was ordered by law to be a trustee and administer the property and real estate and enterprises. However, I would like to state at this time that I never made any difference between Jews and Poles, but I carried out the seizure of these Eastern establishments of Polish property and it did not make any difference to me whether this was a Jew or a Pole and I would include them in my trusteeship administration in accordance with the legal provisions with which I had an obligation.
Q What did the Germans pay you as trustee for the property which you turned over to them in Poland?
A The contract would take place through a legal court order and the Main Trusteeship Agency East. I had to take care of negotiations about the sale and in all these matters the German Baltic Resettlement Society of the Reich was also included. In a certain way, it gave legal assistance in the negotiations. This Society also carried out the payment. The purchase from the Baltic countries did not directly carry out the negotiations and make payment, but the German-Baltic Resettlement Society would purchase the property and it would pay for them.
Q What percentage of the value, the actual value of the property, was paid by these Germans in the resettlement program?
A With regard to the value, of course 100% of the value which had been determined by the experts. Nothing was ever sold below the actual value, but this was just a regular business transaction and the negotiations had the proper results and the matters were paid accordingly.
Q Well, what did you do with the money that you got for other people's property that you held as trustee?
A I have already expressed that once before today. This money was deposited so that later on it could be used or accounted on behalf of the person who wanted the enterprise and that is the people who had a legal claim for a property or having a different enterprise returned to him.
Q Where was that money at the end of the war?
A This money was accounted as the account of Main Trusteeship Resettlement Agency of the East with the Main Treasury of the Reich with the express approval of the Reich Ministry of Finance and the Trusteeship Agency could dispose of any amount at any time.
Q Do you know of any person who lost their property through the invasion of Poland by the German Reich. Did they ever get one penny or one pfennig for their property?
A No, I couldn't hear about that, because all these things had not yet been concluded. They were just being planned. These things were still pending. A law was intended to settle this problem and I had myself issued before that, that if the war had been ended, then, this thing could be moved.
Q Don't you know that this is a fact: The German Reich invaded Poland took the property of the Jews and the Poles that they wanted, confiscated it to their own use and used you as the figure head and called you a trustee and never intended to pay anybody for any of the property they took at any time?
A Whatever was evaluated and every property in the enterprises, I would prepare from this trusteeship account of the Main Trusteeship Agency. I only did this for the purpose which was prescribed by law and I did not spend any of that money and I could not give it to anybody, because I did not receive any requests to that effect. Furthermore, I have already stated that a legal regulation was made about that, but it had not yet been carried out. Therefore, I could not give away any of this.
Q The German Reich made whatever law was necessary to take whatever property they wanted in Poland after they took Poland, isn't that a fact?
A I am a German National and German Citizen and I had to carry out German laws. After all, I could not refuse to comply with the German law. I had to do that.
Q When was the law passed to take over the property in Poland -before or after Poland was taken?
A On 5 October 1939, that was the first law and then there was an additional law which completed the first law on the 17th of September, 1940. In the meantime there was a law about property owned by the Polish State of the 15th of February, 1940.
Q And Both laws were passed after Poland was unlawfully overrun and taken by the German Reich?
A Yes, of course, as a German. National I could say nothing about that. This is what happened, whether it was legal or illegal or whether it was justified or not. Perhaps today I am in a better position to overlook that. However, whether or not I happened to look into these things and fulfill my duties as a German National and this is just what I did.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
( A recess was taken )
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you further questions, Dr. Gawlik?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, indeed.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, were the brick works of the Eastern German Building Material Company located in an area which up to 1919 had for the most part belonged to the German Reich?
A Yes, they were located in what we called the Warthegau, most of which had belonged to the Reich.
Q Can you give us an approximate figure of the Germans living in this area up to that year?
A If I bear in mind the whole of the area which was then part of Germany, about 1/2 of the inhabitants were Germans and the other half was Polish.
Q Did the Germans in 1919 have to leave that area?
A Most of them if they were officials or public servants had to leave and the majority of the inhabitants had to leave for economic reasons. After the transfer a large number of people emigrated for economic and other reasons. They had to live under conditions which seemed to them to be unbearable.
Q Did these Germans receive any compensation for what they lost in the way of property?
A The Polish Government did not bother about that as far as I know. Unless the Germans found somebody to purchase the property from them they were not in a position to do so. Needless to say they had to do it under strong pressure and the prices were very low. I also remember that the Polish Government of the day imposed an emigration tax of some considerable amount.
Q Was the new border which was drawn up in 1939 recognized by a State which signed the Control Council Law?
A Let me think. Treaties of that kind were probably concluded with Russia. Otherwise I can't give you any answer.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik: This is not a course in European history. I don't think we ought to go back through the various partitions of Poland which take us back, I think, to 1750 and trace the history of things that have happened to Poland by reason of her position between Russia and Germany. I don't think that has anything to do with what happened to private property in Poland in 1940. You can't justify larceny by showing other larcenies covering a century.
DR. GAWLIK: I thought it was relevant, if Your Honors please, in order to show the general principles in international law. As far as Poland's behavior towards Germany in 1919 is concerned, I don't say it was larceny, but these were simply principles which in international law developed after war. That at least is my opinion. I therefore venture to submit this to the Court, namely what principles were observed in that area after the First World War concerning the way property was treated and dealt with, and for the attitude of the people who worked on these things it was important to know that in 1919 the Poles had handled property in this manner. Therefore they probably considered it quite legitimate to do something similar now. I think that this is legitimate.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you are proceeding on the principle that severed wrongs will make a right; that if enough people do the wrong thing it becomes the right thing.
DR. GAWLIK: If Your Honors please, international law became cracked after the First World War, if I remember correctly. This is described by Garner in his well-known book "Under International Law".
THE PRESIDENT: It became badly fractured after the Second World War too.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, I agree with you entirely.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right, we do not want to be too strict about this. If you think that this has some value, that it is relevant, why we don't propose to stop you provided you don't get back into the Trojan Wars or the Roman conquests of Gaul. You won't go that far, will you?
DR. GAWLIK: No, I have no further questions on that point actually, if your Honors please.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) Witness, you have referred to the appraisal of seized property.
Can you give us an approximate figure, a relative figure of the property which was appraised: I am now only referring to the brick works of the Eastern German Construction Material Company which was directed by the Defendant Bobermin?
A. I said first that as I remember it perhaps five brick works were appraised. As I remember it about three hundred brick works were transferred.
Q. Did the Defendant Dr. Bobermin have any connection whatsoever with this appraisal?
A. No. All he had to do was to see that the interested parties should inspect the brick works. Otherwise he had nothing to do with it. Perhaps he had to furnish information about the potential profits and the economic administration. He had to give information to people who wanted to find out about the price, about improvements, etc., but he had nothing to do with the actual purchase.
Q. Do I understand you correctly, Witness, that these are only your assumptions, namely, whether he actually had a share in these things or not; you don't know?
A. No, no, I don't know.
Q. Then on cross-examination you answered the following question in the affirmative. "Did you take part of the seized property in order to improve the other part?" What do you mean by that?
A. A large number of enterprises, and particularly when we had our new military economy, made large profits and these large profits, of course, were used in order to extend or revive other enterprises. As, of course, in the case of these hundreds and thousands of objects, I did not always know what the purpose of the money was, it all was taken into one Treasury, and the income was simply used in order to improve and preserve the enterprises. Here, in order to use a technical term, they were simply kept on the accounts in order to make up the final balance sheet.
Q. Is it therefore correct that only the profits were used in order to improve other parts?
A. I am afraid I can't speak too precisely here, but surely the profits were entirely adequate in order to pay for the improvements, because there were enterprises who made profits by the million.
Q. And can you tell us whether that applied to the brick works under Bobermin?
A. No, I know nothing about that. I don't think that the brick works made any considerable profits. They certainly were not handed over to the Trusteeship Agency, but as far as I know they remained as capital with the enterprises themselves. The Construction material Company did not administer these things separately but it had a centralized administration.
Q. Then on direct examination you explained in what way these properties were secured and made safe. Books were kept and files were kept. Was this done for every single enterprise which was being administered?
A. I can't tell you that. I was not in charge of the bookkeeping task. I had various people in the districts, and in the central administration at Berlin I only heard about the large enterprises above the value of 500,000 marks. The order existed that if possible every enterprise should be accounted for separately. If it was an independent enterprise it kept its account separately and independently.
Q. Was that also done with Jewish and Polish enterprises?
A. I never differentiated between them at all. They were all simply Polish nationals to me, whose property had been seized by legal arrangements and taken care of by the Trusteeship Agency un der the terms of a proper commercial custodian.
Q. Were, therefore, all necessary measures taken in order to safeguard the property of the Poles and Jews?
A. I ordered all measures to be taken, and time and again I pointed out in writing and orally when I met the men in charge of the trusteeship agency and its branches that it was extremely important from my point of view that the administration should be conscientious and proper.
On the day after I had taken over that assignment, I asked the President of the German Court of Audits to establish a special department for the auditing of these enterprises. This was done, and a ministerial councillor was put in charge. A large number of officials of the German Court of Audits were in Berlin and in the branches in the provinces and in the enterprises themselves where they saw to it that everything was done properly and the legal provisions were being observed.
Q. Then on direct examination you named a sum which was available at the end of the war for purposes of compensating the owners. Was this sum available also, and was it earmarked for the compensation of Poles and Jews?
A. Yes, because these people were formerly the owners, and that was really the purpose of that fund.
Q On cross-examination the distribution of property to the Baltic Germans was being discussed. Can you give the Court a figure of the values involved in the whole of the property distributed to Baltic Germans?
A. I am unable to give you any figure which would give an idea of the amount, but I could perhaps say that among the sixty or seventy thousand commercial enterprises which were being administered --and we always assumed that this figure applied although we were not absolutely certain -- approximately two percent were appraised.
I don't think that it was more than two percent.
Q. Do you know on the basis of what agreements with what states these Baltic Germans came to Germany?
A. Yes. The Russian Government had made an agreement with the German Government, and it had taken over such property of the Baltic Germans as they had left behind, and if I remember correctly a sum of 300,000,000 marks was paid by them. The Reich Minister of Finance once told me that only the first installment of that sum was paid. It amounted to about 60,000,000 marks.
Q. Now, when an enterprise was sold to a Baltic German was the price fixed, and how?
A. The price, as far as these Baltic enterprises were concerned, had to be paid in cash, but as the German Baltic Resettlement Company which looked after the property of these resettled Baltics did not have the money, and it had to request its funds actually from the Reich Minister of Finance. I was asked not to insist on cash payments, and in negotiations with the Reich Minister of Finance I gave my agreement that we would not insist on cash payments. That means that I would issue bonds, as it were, for the German Baltic Resettlement Company, and I would deposit it as cash with the Main German Treasury. This was actually done.
Q. Were you a member of the SS?
A. No.
Q. Thank you very much.
DR. GAWLICK: I have no further questions.
DR. FRITSCH: (counsel for the defendant Baier): May it please the court, I have only a very few question which resulted from the cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Dr. Winkler, you named the sum of one point six billions as having been at your disposal toward the end of the war. Was that sum only the result of appraisals or did it also include the profits?
A. This sum contained everything. It was the total amount, as we call it, and included both profits and appraisals. I should like to say that my greatest difficulty was to have the big enterprises, coal and iron, in Silesia administered properly, and therefore, my main efforts were always directed toward appraising those enterprises, which was done. And the amount which I have named contains -I am tempted to say -- almost half of the results of what was done with the enterprises in Upper-Silesia. Therefore, the other enterprises amounted to only a fraction of the one point six billions.
Q. I am now coming to a question put to you by Professor Kempner. You said that the total property of which you were in charge amounted to about 15 to 20 billions in your estimation. Was this active capital or should part if this have been used to meet obligations which are always connected with large capital?
A. It was not possible to have an enormous complex of this sort administered and at the same time meet debts, obligations, checks, etc, in a separate manner and keep it under constant observation.