JUDGE PHILLIPS: While you were trustee was any owner of private property that was seized ever paid for this property, either as rental or value of the property?
A. No, not yet. It was planned for a later period of time. Actual payment was not yet done but the profits from the whole of the economic enterprise were booked to the credit of the man concerned were deposited with banks in order to pay out the money later on.
BY DR. GAWLICK:
Q. Where were the owners of the brick works?
A. When the War broke out, many of the Poles left the country. I always assumed that the owners of the brick works had also fled when the war broke out.
Q. What measures were taken in order to guarantee security? That is to say, to secure the property of the brick works?
A. As in almost all cases in the case of the brick works a commissar was appointed as the administrator and he had to acquaint himself with the duties of a normal commercial manager. He had to continue to run the brick works, had to report about what was being done, and to make accounts. That this was done in a proper manner was seen to by specially appointed auditors.
THE PRESIDENT: This is a good place to stop, Dr. Gawlick. Before we recess this is your witness. This is your witness. Will you give him some instructions before two, or before we come back, to pause between the question and the answer. Take him in the corner and tell him what you really mean, will you?
DR. GAWLICK: Certainly, Mr. President.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 13:45 AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1350 hours, 7 August 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I would like to say the following: In order to show the direction which my presentation of evidence is taking, I want to show just what I want to prove in examing this witness. I want to show that the brick works in the annexed Eastern Territories were not disapproriated but that they were only temporarily seized. This was a measure to which every occupying power is entitled in order to maintain the public order and peace and security. In connection with what I have already stated this morning I would like to give you the following example. If an occupying power needs a building in order to billet its soldiers, or if it needs that building as living accommodations, then that particular building has to be seized, and the owners are not allowed to use it during the time it is occupied. However, the owner still has certain rights with regard to this building. I want to show that is exactly what happened with regard to the brick works.
MAX WINKLER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, can you consider the seizure of the brick works, can you compare it with a legal measure which is actually being taken now also?
A Yes. The occupying power by virtue of law No. 52 in the case of numerous persons have also carried out their seizure in the name of this occupation. This did not make any decision mandatory if these buildings were to be returned to the owners again or whether any compensation is to be paid for them.
Q Just how, what brought about Pohl's appointment as General Trustee of the Brick Works?
A The Chief of the Department of Economics told me about the matter, and he informed me of the fact that representatives of Obergruppenfuehrer and Ministerial Director Pohl had declared themselves ready to take these brick works under general custodianship. I then had a discussion with Pohl and he was accompanied by his collaborator. On that occasion he told me that with these brick works he wanted to meet the urgent requirements for the army and purposes of repair. I then heard through commissioners who were appointed by Pohl, and I had no misgivings about the taking over of the brick works into custodianship and I agreed with them.
Q In what form were these enterprises taken over?
A They were not taken over formally. The trusteeship agency, because of the large extent of the objects which were suddenly taken over, was unable to do that. The local trusteeship agencies and the government authorities who had to collaborate in this matter within the provinces probably turned over these brick works to the commissioner of Pohl.
Q Were any accounts kept in this case?
A Yes, accounts were kept insofar as constant reports were given, just about the financial state of affairs, but no final accounting was carried out as yet.
Q Were auditors constantly supervising the administrations of the brick works?
A Yes, these enterprises were supervised, and as far as I can recall an auditor was charged with the task of auditing all the enterprises which had been taken over by Pohl. He constantly submitted his reports to the Department of Economics, and then I would hear about the contents of these reports as far as the most important items were concerned.
Q Were the enterprises of the Eastern German Construction Material Enterprises exploited?
A I don't think so. After all, it is for the first time now that I hear that these enterprises should have been exploited at all.
Q In what condition were the enterprises when you took them over, or when you turned them over to the Eastern German Construction Material Enterprises?
A I can answer you this question, in general they were in the condition in which the former owner had left them behind, or they were in the condition in which they had been left behind after the war operations had passed.
Q What do you know about the fact whether on the part of the Eastern German Construction Material Enterprises investments were carried out?
AAfter the enterprises were handled on the custodianship basis I was informed by Pohl, I was requested by Pohl, by one of his employees, to furnish capital for the enterprises because no cash existed in these enterprises and they were unable to operate these plants without sufficient capital. I then gave a loan to Pohl's administration which amounted to at least twelve millions, and as far as I can recall there may have been one or two million more, and within the time limit of one year this loan was used up. When further requests were made I stated that I was unwilling and unable to grant any additional loans. I now stated that I had to demand that now the loan should slowly be repaid. The amounts were fixed by me so that there would be sufficient and had to be sufficient for the production in one year. I had the impression at the time that for the administration of Pohl the certain difficulties had arisen and that he was trying elsewhere to get the necessary funds. I believe that I personally advised him to ask for the aid of the Reich Ministry of Finance, and in this way to found an enterprise belonging to the Reich, and then with the Reich I would be better able to negotiate about the loans for the Reich. I then negotiated with the Reich Ministry of Finance in the sense that I stated that I would have to see some repayment of my previous loan, and I could not furnish any additional loans.
The negotiations finally led to the result that the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East got back the loan and that Pohl was able to continue to administer these enterprises. Whether on the part of the administration of Pohl the first loan from the Main Trusteeship Agency, and whether the funds were used from it for new investment, or whether this took place later on from funds which had been furnished from some other agency, I don't know. However, I do know that considerable investments were made with regard to the brick works.
Q Was any compensation of the former owners planned if the enterprises were to be disappropriated or if they were to be utilized otherwise?
AAll the appropriate legal regulations applied to these cases. That was the decree of the 5th of October, 1939, about the establishment of the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East, where it is stated that the compensation for private persons was being planned by virtue of the decree about the administration of Polish private property of the 17th of September, 1940. It is specified that the decision about the compensation was to be reserved for the time being.
Q What measures were taken in order to secure the compensation of the former owners?
A The Main Trusteeship Agency from the very beginning ordered its bookkeepers to have a card index file about every individual enterprise, and if possible the bookkeepers were to establish a file and a separate account for each individual plant. Through this medium whatever happened of importance was entered in this manner. The profits which were drawn from the enterprises and the profits for enterprises which were used remained in the administration of the Main Trusteeship Agency for the East, and the funds were placed into banks and later on they were kept with the Reich Main Treasury so that it could be available to the Main Trusteeship Agency for the East at all times.
Q What amount existed at the end of the war for the compensation of the owners of plants which had been taken over?
A We had 1.6 billion marks in the account with the Reich Main Treasury. It was accounted there for the Main Trusteeship Agency.
Q Were any brick works of the Eastern German Construction Material Company used under a custodianship basis?
A I can't give you any precise details about that, but I can recall that several - I think up to five - were used so that they could be turned over to Baltic Germans for brick works which they had lost.
Q When these transactions were to be carried out, where the profits from these sales would they have been secured in the manner in which you have just described?
A Yes, that is certain. Naturally this would have happened and it actually has happened in that way.
Q Did Pohl seize any enterprises as the trustee?
A I don't know that. He didn't have the right to do that, and actually he had no reason to do that because after all the enterprises were generally seized.
Q Did the defendant Dr. Bobermin, seize any enterprises?
A No, he didn't have the right to do that. No, he did not have the right to do that and as far as I know he didn't do it.
Q Of what agency was the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East a part?
A The Main Trusteeship Agency in the East was an agency of the Four Year Plan.
Q What was the character of this agency?
A It was founded for a certain purpose. It was established in order to handle the administration in the territories under military occupation, in all the areas which were taken over by the German Reich. And also to see to it that the economy there was maintained and was operating smoothly. For this purpose, the agency had some authority under civil law.
Q Was the Main Trusteeship Agency an organization of the SS?
A No.
Q Was this agency subordinated to Himmler?
A No.
Q Was the Main Trusteeship Agency subordinated to an agency of the SS?
A No, because it was only subordinated to the Four Year Plan.
Q Did the Main Trusteeship Agency have the tasks to support the SS?
A No.
Q Did the Main Trusteeship Agency place any emphasis on the fact that it was to be administered by the SS?
A No.
Q Will you please comment on the question why the owners of the plants which had been seized did not yet receive any compensation?
When was the compensation to be paid out?
A The war with Poland was not over yet, and after all the former owners had not returned as yet; and any legal or administrative measures in order to settle the matter once and for all could not bet be taken. Requests for compensation in many thousands of cases which would have been received by the Trusteeship Agency normally, but these requests were not passed on to me, so that in general we maintained the point of view that the settlement of the question of compensation could only be received after a peace had been concluded.
Q Were you arrested by the British Military Government?
A I was arrested on the 10th of August 1945 at Flensburg. Early in November from the camp at Neuengamme I was sent to the highest interrogation camp in the British Zone at Bad Mendorf.
Q During what period of time were you imprisoned?
AAltogether, I have been in confinement from the 10th of August 1945 until 7th of January 1947.
Q Within the Main Trusteeship Agency for the East, was your field of work clarified in detail in the course of the interrogations?
AAll of my fields of work, and in particular with regard to the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East were discussed in numerous interrogations in Bad Mendorf. They were clarified to the extent as the British interrogating officials considered it necessary. I was told frequently that some other inquiries had come from London, and then I had to answer these inquiries in writing or orally.
Q By virtue of the results of these interrogations, were you released by the British authorities?
A Whether I was released as a result of these interrogations, I don't know. I can only state that the interrogating officials told me in August 1946 that they had now completed their interrogations, and that the decision would have to come from London. In October, I asked the interrogating official what was to happen to me now, and at that time he answered that he did not believe that any charges would be raised against me. However, he also told me that he had not received any reply and a few days later, on the 3rd of November 1946, I was transferred to the discharge center at Fallingbostel, and on the 17th of December I was informed of the fact that I was to be released. And the date of my release was to be the 7th of January 1947.
Q Since that time have you been at liberty and how long?
A I was at liberty until the 14th of July. I was arrested in my apartment by an American officer.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions from any defense counsel? The prosecution may cross examine?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. KEMPNER:
Q We were talking together, Mr. Winkler, some days ago, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell me on that day that you were shocked about the killings of Jews and Poles in the East?
A Yes. When I heard about that, I was extremely shocked.
Q Did you tell me on that day that you reported and talked to various people about the shocking things which happened in the East?
A Yes, after I heard about these things, I talked about them with friends; and I was expressed the fact that I was extremely shocked.
Q You talked about these things with delegates of the Foreign Office, for instance, isn't that true? The German Foreign Office.
A No, I cannot recall that at all. In the camp at Bad Mendorf, I was together with the legation counsel from Sweden, and I certainly must have discussed these matters with him.
Q No, I am referring to your talk with various people were you complained back in '43, '42, '41, and 1940 about these terrific killings going on in the East.
A No, I can't give you the exact time, but in 1940 and 1941 and also in '42 and '43, I certainly did not have any knowledge of these matters.
Q What was the first time you learned about these murders in the east?
A Towards the end of the war. It must have been approximately toward the end of 1944/
Q You knew a man in Germany, Heilmann-- H-e-i-l-m-a-n-n Ernst Heilmann?
A Yes, I knew him.
Q You also knew he was killed in a concentration camp?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I only heard that from you. I only knew that Dr. Heilmann was in a very weak physical condition when he was released from a concentration camp. Exactly what happened, I don't know.
Q You know that Mr. Claussner was killed in Germany, you know, the leader of the Catholic Action in Germany?
A No, I don't know that either. I only know that he had died at the time -- are you referring to ministerial director? I only know that he lost his life at the time on the 30th of June 1934.
Q Was that mass killing?
A Yes, as far as I know that was mass murder. However, I don't know that exactly. I only know that he lost his life.
Q Was it a mass murder or not? You are a lawyer, and as far as I know -
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I object to this question. It is a legal question which the witness cannot possibly answer. After all, he is not a legal expert.
THE WITNESS: I am not a lawyer. I have never studied law.
MR. KEMPNER: Mr. President, the witness was asked before whether these acts could be compared with certain legal acts by American and other occupational authorities, so I think that this very simple question of whether he regards these killings as murder or not, he can answer whether he thinks they are. He studied law and received an honorary law decree as far as I know.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the term "murder" is not exclusively a legal one. It has a lay -- it has a meaning for laymen as well as for the professional man. He may answer the question.
BY MR. KEMPNER:
Q Was it murder or not?
A I was extremely shocked about what happened on the 30 of June 1934, and in general I considered this as constituting murder.
Q Now, when we had the conversation on July 18, you remember that we talked with each other? You remember?
A Yes, yes.
Q Didn't you answer my question of whether the eastern territories had been exploited in the sense of the word with the answer of yes?
A I believe at the time I also stated that they were used for war purposes, and that they were exploited. However, a lot was done for the eastern territories in the meantime. Afterall, we had to do a lot of reconstruction work and carry out large investments which were used in the eastern territories.
Q The investment which you put in, were these investments taken from the remaining property of the dead Jews and Poles, or did you get a loan from the United States or other territories?
A No; the funds, as far as I had disposal over them and as far as I was competent for that -- these funds only came from the profits in economy or the custodians of the enterprises which have been used. I don't know just where the other monies came from and how they were used.
Q So you used part of the confiscated property to improve such property, is that right?
A Yes. I have done that in numerous cases by adding additional construction, and in this particular I did this when I administered 200,000 municipal properties, I did not put their money into the Reich Treasury; but I used this money in order to repair the properties and apartments, and so on.
Q And you know -- and you told me -- that all this property came from Jews and Poles who were no longer there, or who had been killed, is that correct?
You told me the other day.
A I didn't understand your question.
Q The other day you told me that the material or that the property you were the administrator of was the former property of Jews and Poles who were no longer in Poland for one reason or another?
A Yes, they had fled, and I did not know what happened to them afterwards.
Q Did you think that your superior, Hermann Goering, would ship these Jews and Poles back to Poland in order to take over their property again? Did you think so ?
A I didn't think that Hermann Goering would do that, but that large numbers of Poles who were still alive would return -- that I did believe, I was expecting that.
Q Did you think your associate Mr. Himmler would send these Jews and Poles back to Poland in order that they should take over their property again?
A I did believe that peace would arrive at some time or other, and that the Poles would return home just like other people who had fled or emigrated during the war.
Q But you knew these Poles, and you knew, at least in 1944, as you say now, that a lot of Poles and Jews were killed by the SS and by other people in the East?
A I heard that about Jews at the end of 1944; in I did not hear that with regard to Poles. I only heard occasionally about Poles in 1940 that executions took place. However, I did not know the reason for their being executed, and I did not hear any details about that.
Q I am not interested in the reasons, but you realized that they wouldn't come back since they were shot, is that clear?
A I cannot put it in that form. I did not think over whether every individual owner would return, but I thought that the overwhelming majority of the Poles who had fled would return. I considered that to be a certainty.
Q You suggest to this Court that the expelled Poles and Jews would come back in their majority, is that the idea?
A Yes, I expected that most of them. I did not think over the matter so precisely, but I still thought that a large number would return. I considered that to be a certainty.
Q Now, if you thought so, why did you distribute part of this property to the Germans who came from other parts of Europe to these territories?
A I only distributed very little -- almost nothing, and I had to turn over part of these enterprises because this was prescribed by law. I had to give it to the Baltic Germans and to Germans from several other territories. I could not dispose over that solely. It was specified by law that the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom abroad had to do that, and since the war was going on for such a long period of time and the trusteeship agency could not continually work with foreigners, I complied with the request that the Baltic Germans should be given a number of properties since they had nothing to do, and they were just sitting around, and I had to do that because this was provided by law.
Q Did you make, together with your associate Himmler, directives for the distribution of such property to other people, to Germans coming back to these areas?
A I don't know that anymore. From the legal department I would constantly receive a list of directives issued by the Main Trusteeship for the East, and it is quite possible that in the legal provisions which I had to carry out I may have worked together with the agency of the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom, and that I helped in issuing such an administrative directive. However, I cannot recall that fact so precisely anymore today.
Q I ask you again -- and you may answer this yes or no--did you sign directives -- executive directives -- for the distribution of this stolen property together with Himmler, or not?
A I cannot recall ever having signed, together with Himmler. I may have signed for this in a representative capacity as the Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Folkdom. I may have issued directives in this way.
Q You didn't sign any decrees together with Himmler?
A I didn't say that. I only stated that I couldn't recall that so precisely at the moment. I don't remember it so precisely that I can answer it with yes or no. I would have to look at the material which has been collected and published.
Q Then let me refresh your memory: On February 20, 1940, you signed an official directive. At the left side, "Dr. Winkler") at the right side, "Heinrich Himmler".
A I don't know that any more and I can't recall it at the moment. But if it is there, I must have done it, yes. I don't know.
Q And at that time you made the decision how to distribute such property to the other people. You remember now?
A No.
Q We will turn it over later to the Court as an exhibit. I have no translation as yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have the original, Doctor Kempner?
Q May I present to the witness, this document, and he may answer the question. Mr. Winkler, are you this "Dr. Winkler" whose name is under this directive?
A Yes.
Q And you recognize the signature of Heinrich Himmler?
A I would recognize it, yes. May I please take a look at the contents?
Q No, I'll ask you later about it.
Is that the only decree you signed together with your associate Heinrich Himmler?
A I don't know that.
Q You think there might be others?
A I don't know that. I can only state that all these things were not done in secret -- but publicly. And if they are in existence, then I have to admit it; but I can't recall it now.
Q What was the amount of property you were the administrator of? How many billions did you administer?
A I cannot express it in general. I have never received any precise figures about it, or statistics. The Polish State property went through the Main Trusteeship Agency in the East as a temporary measure, and that was turned over to the competent Reich minister. I do not have any statistics about that. Part of this was included but it included a number of billions.
Q You received a lot of congratulations when you were appointed to the biggest job of administering foreign property, is that right?
A I didn't understand your question.
Q Did you receive a lot of congratulations when you were appointed to this job as an administrator of -
A I can't recall that anymore.
Q Before you received this job, had you been involved in the Aryanization of Jewish property?
A No, I had nothing to do with that.
Q Were you involved in selling many millions of property of the Jewish-owned Ullstein newspaper company to the company of a certain Adolf Hitler, who was the owner of the Franz Eher Publishing House in Munich? Yes or no.
A That was early in 1934. At that time, by order of the Reich Government, I had negotiations about the stock of the Ullstein Publishing House, with Goebbles, and the Reich Government purchased this publishing house by taking over several obligations for the sum of eight and a half million marks.
Q So you bought Ullstein for Goebbels, is that correct?
A For the Reich Government.
Q Who was the chief of the Reich Government at that time?
AAt the time I received my order from Goebbels.
Q That is enough.
Who was the Reich Chancellor at that time?
A Hitler.
Q Did the Ullstein's ever see any money out of that deal? Yes or no?
A The Ullsteins received a sum in cash at the rate which was specified in the purchasing contract.
Q And, at the same time, they were expelled, is that correct, and the money came to a confiscation -
A No, no, on the contrary. The Ullstein family repeatedly turned to me with a request that I should help them to take foreign currency out of the country.
Q -- to the United Stated - yes or no?
A I complied with these requests. I recommended them, and, as far as I know, these requests were approved.
Q Did they get any money? Yes, or no. -- As far as your knowledge is concerned.
A The Ullsteins?
Q Yes, in the Polish country.
A Large sums were returned so that they could be transferred into the foreign exchange abroad.
Q So you don't know whether they ever received any money.
A I don't know that.
Q In how many cases did you buy German newspapers for the propaganda ministry after Hitler came into power?
A I can't tell you the exact figure any more. There may have been 20 to 25 publishing houses.
Q So you turned over 20 to 25 publishing houses to the Goebbels administration, is that correct?
A I bought publishing houses later on, not for the Government any more, but I approached them directly for the Reich Administrator for Publishing matters in the German Reich.
Q One last question: Did you realize that you were the biggest administrator of property taken from dead Jews and expelled Poles? Yes, or no.
A No, I did not receive it from dead Jews or from dead Poles, but I was appointed as a trustee of the Polish Property that accumulated to a rather large extent, and I administered my position to the best of my belief and knowledge, just as it was my duty as a trustee.
Q I just go a slip from my colleague and I would like to ask you in addition to this question: what was the general -- how many billions did you administer?
A You mean millions?
Q Billions.
A I did not take care of this administration all at the same time. Some of it was completed. There were a number of billions. However, I never compiled any statistics about that.
Q It was all existing from Jewish and Polish property in Poland, is that correct? Was there any other property?
A Yes, not in Poland, but after all I only administered those territories which had been incorporated by the German Reich. I had nothing to do with the General Government and with the administration of the property there.
Q How many billions, we would like to know?
A There may have been 15 to 20 billions, but, as I have stated before, I have only administered these and I only evaluated the money when this was necessary for economic for industrial reasons. Otherwise, I never carried out any evaluation of these enterprises, so I can give you any value.
Q It was about 20 to 30 billions, is that correct, approximately?
A I can't overlook the entire matter now, but, if everything is evaluated, it may have been approximately 20 billions.
Q You held it that the dead one and the other Polish families would get it back. This is your final contention?
A Well, here we are not dealing with the question that such amounts were to be repaid. After all, nothing was actually utilized, only very small enterprises, very small properties were used and here I hoped that the Poles who returned alive would receive it back. Towards the end of 1944 I heard what happened to the Jews.
Q Your testimony is then that therefore they couldn't get it back any more, is that correct?
A Well, not if they were dead.
BY JUDGE PHILIPPS:
Q Witness, did I understand you to say in cross-examination that after you had taken over this property and you were holding it as a trustee that you transferred a part of this property to the German Nationals who had been brought in from other countries into Poland and turned this property over to them as Germans in this foreign country and that the Germans came from the Baltic countries to Poland, is that correct?
A Yes, after all, they were there already at the beginning and later on I was ordered by law to be a trustee and administer the property and real estate and enterprises. However, I would like to state at this time that I never made any difference between Jews and Poles, but I carried out the seizure of these Eastern establishments of Polish property and it did not make any difference to me whether this was a Jew or a Pole and I would include them in my trusteeship administration in accordance with the legal provisions with which I had an obligation.
Q What did the Germans pay you as trustee for the property which you turned over to them in Poland?
A The contract would take place through a legal court order and the Main Trusteeship Agency East. I had to take care of negotiations about the sale and in all these matters the German Baltic Resettlement Society of the Reich was also included. In a certain way, it gave legal assistance in the negotiations. This Society also carried out the payment. The purchase from the Baltic countries did not directly carry out the negotiations and make payment, but the German-Baltic Resettlement Society would purchase the property and it would pay for them.
Q What percentage of the value, the actual value of the property, was paid by these Germans in the resettlement program?
A With regard to the value, of course 100% of the value which had been determined by the experts. Nothing was ever sold below the actual value, but this was just a regular business transaction and the negotiations had the proper results and the matters were paid accordingly.
Q Well, what did you do with the money that you got for other people's property that you held as trustee?