A I have already expressed that once before today. This money was deposited so that later on it could be used or accounted on behalf of the person who wanted the enterprise and that is the people who had a legal claim for a property or having a different enterprise returned to him.
Q Where was that money at the end of the war?
A This money was accounted as the account of Main Trusteeship Resettlement Agency of the East with the Main Treasury of the Reich with the express approval of the Reich Ministry of Finance and the Trusteeship Agency could dispose of any amount at any time.
Q Do you know of any person who lost their property through the invasion of Poland by the German Reich. Did they ever get one penny or one pfennig for their property?
A No, I couldn't hear about that, because all these things had not yet been concluded. They were just being planned. These things were still pending. A law was intended to settle this problem and I had myself issued before that, that if the war had been ended, then, this thing could be moved.
Q Don't you know that this is a fact: The German Reich invaded Poland took the property of the Jews and the Poles that they wanted, confiscated it to their own use and used you as the figure head and called you a trustee and never intended to pay anybody for any of the property they took at any time?
A Whatever was evaluated and every property in the enterprises, I would prepare from this trusteeship account of the Main Trusteeship Agency. I only did this for the purpose which was prescribed by law and I did not spend any of that money and I could not give it to anybody, because I did not receive any requests to that effect. Furthermore, I have already stated that a legal regulation was made about that, but it had not yet been carried out. Therefore, I could not give away any of this.
Q The German Reich made whatever law was necessary to take whatever property they wanted in Poland after they took Poland, isn't that a fact?
A I am a German National and German Citizen and I had to carry out German laws. After all, I could not refuse to comply with the German law. I had to do that.
Q When was the law passed to take over the property in Poland -before or after Poland was taken?
A On 5 October 1939, that was the first law and then there was an additional law which completed the first law on the 17th of September, 1940. In the meantime there was a law about property owned by the Polish State of the 15th of February, 1940.
Q And Both laws were passed after Poland was unlawfully overrun and taken by the German Reich?
A Yes, of course, as a German. National I could say nothing about that. This is what happened, whether it was legal or illegal or whether it was justified or not. Perhaps today I am in a better position to overlook that. However, whether or not I happened to look into these things and fulfill my duties as a German National and this is just what I did.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
( A recess was taken )
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you further questions, Dr. Gawlik?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, indeed.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, were the brick works of the Eastern German Building Material Company located in an area which up to 1919 had for the most part belonged to the German Reich?
A Yes, they were located in what we called the Warthegau, most of which had belonged to the Reich.
Q Can you give us an approximate figure of the Germans living in this area up to that year?
A If I bear in mind the whole of the area which was then part of Germany, about 1/2 of the inhabitants were Germans and the other half was Polish.
Q Did the Germans in 1919 have to leave that area?
A Most of them if they were officials or public servants had to leave and the majority of the inhabitants had to leave for economic reasons. After the transfer a large number of people emigrated for economic and other reasons. They had to live under conditions which seemed to them to be unbearable.
Q Did these Germans receive any compensation for what they lost in the way of property?
A The Polish Government did not bother about that as far as I know. Unless the Germans found somebody to purchase the property from them they were not in a position to do so. Needless to say they had to do it under strong pressure and the prices were very low. I also remember that the Polish Government of the day imposed an emigration tax of some considerable amount.
Q Was the new border which was drawn up in 1939 recognized by a State which signed the Control Council Law?
A Let me think. Treaties of that kind were probably concluded with Russia. Otherwise I can't give you any answer.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik: This is not a course in European history. I don't think we ought to go back through the various partitions of Poland which take us back, I think, to 1750 and trace the history of things that have happened to Poland by reason of her position between Russia and Germany. I don't think that has anything to do with what happened to private property in Poland in 1940. You can't justify larceny by showing other larcenies covering a century.
DR. GAWLIK: I thought it was relevant, if Your Honors please, in order to show the general principles in international law. As far as Poland's behavior towards Germany in 1919 is concerned, I don't say it was larceny, but these were simply principles which in international law developed after war. That at least is my opinion. I therefore venture to submit this to the Court, namely what principles were observed in that area after the First World War concerning the way property was treated and dealt with, and for the attitude of the people who worked on these things it was important to know that in 1919 the Poles had handled property in this manner. Therefore they probably considered it quite legitimate to do something similar now. I think that this is legitimate.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you are proceeding on the principle that severed wrongs will make a right; that if enough people do the wrong thing it becomes the right thing.
DR. GAWLIK: If Your Honors please, international law became cracked after the First World War, if I remember correctly. This is described by Garner in his well-known book "Under International Law".
THE PRESIDENT: It became badly fractured after the Second World War too.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, I agree with you entirely.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right, we do not want to be too strict about this. If you think that this has some value, that it is relevant, why we don't propose to stop you provided you don't get back into the Trojan Wars or the Roman conquests of Gaul. You won't go that far, will you?
DR. GAWLIK: No, I have no further questions on that point actually, if your Honors please.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) Witness, you have referred to the appraisal of seized property.
Can you give us an approximate figure, a relative figure of the property which was appraised: I am now only referring to the brick works of the Eastern German Construction Material Company which was directed by the Defendant Bobermin?
A. I said first that as I remember it perhaps five brick works were appraised. As I remember it about three hundred brick works were transferred.
Q. Did the Defendant Dr. Bobermin have any connection whatsoever with this appraisal?
A. No. All he had to do was to see that the interested parties should inspect the brick works. Otherwise he had nothing to do with it. Perhaps he had to furnish information about the potential profits and the economic administration. He had to give information to people who wanted to find out about the price, about improvements, etc., but he had nothing to do with the actual purchase.
Q. Do I understand you correctly, Witness, that these are only your assumptions, namely, whether he actually had a share in these things or not; you don't know?
A. No, no, I don't know.
Q. Then on cross-examination you answered the following question in the affirmative. "Did you take part of the seized property in order to improve the other part?" What do you mean by that?
A. A large number of enterprises, and particularly when we had our new military economy, made large profits and these large profits, of course, were used in order to extend or revive other enterprises. As, of course, in the case of these hundreds and thousands of objects, I did not always know what the purpose of the money was, it all was taken into one Treasury, and the income was simply used in order to improve and preserve the enterprises. Here, in order to use a technical term, they were simply kept on the accounts in order to make up the final balance sheet.
Q. Is it therefore correct that only the profits were used in order to improve other parts?
A. I am afraid I can't speak too precisely here, but surely the profits were entirely adequate in order to pay for the improvements, because there were enterprises who made profits by the million.
Q. And can you tell us whether that applied to the brick works under Bobermin?
A. No, I know nothing about that. I don't think that the brick works made any considerable profits. They certainly were not handed over to the Trusteeship Agency, but as far as I know they remained as capital with the enterprises themselves. The Construction material Company did not administer these things separately but it had a centralized administration.
Q. Then on direct examination you explained in what way these properties were secured and made safe. Books were kept and files were kept. Was this done for every single enterprise which was being administered?
A. I can't tell you that. I was not in charge of the bookkeeping task. I had various people in the districts, and in the central administration at Berlin I only heard about the large enterprises above the value of 500,000 marks. The order existed that if possible every enterprise should be accounted for separately. If it was an independent enterprise it kept its account separately and independently.
Q. Was that also done with Jewish and Polish enterprises?
A. I never differentiated between them at all. They were all simply Polish nationals to me, whose property had been seized by legal arrangements and taken care of by the Trusteeship Agency un der the terms of a proper commercial custodian.
Q. Were, therefore, all necessary measures taken in order to safeguard the property of the Poles and Jews?
A. I ordered all measures to be taken, and time and again I pointed out in writing and orally when I met the men in charge of the trusteeship agency and its branches that it was extremely important from my point of view that the administration should be conscientious and proper.
On the day after I had taken over that assignment, I asked the President of the German Court of Audits to establish a special department for the auditing of these enterprises. This was done, and a ministerial councillor was put in charge. A large number of officials of the German Court of Audits were in Berlin and in the branches in the provinces and in the enterprises themselves where they saw to it that everything was done properly and the legal provisions were being observed.
Q. Then on direct examination you named a sum which was available at the end of the war for purposes of compensating the owners. Was this sum available also, and was it earmarked for the compensation of Poles and Jews?
A. Yes, because these people were formerly the owners, and that was really the purpose of that fund.
Q On cross-examination the distribution of property to the Baltic Germans was being discussed. Can you give the Court a figure of the values involved in the whole of the property distributed to Baltic Germans?
A. I am unable to give you any figure which would give an idea of the amount, but I could perhaps say that among the sixty or seventy thousand commercial enterprises which were being administered --and we always assumed that this figure applied although we were not absolutely certain -- approximately two percent were appraised.
I don't think that it was more than two percent.
Q. Do you know on the basis of what agreements with what states these Baltic Germans came to Germany?
A. Yes. The Russian Government had made an agreement with the German Government, and it had taken over such property of the Baltic Germans as they had left behind, and if I remember correctly a sum of 300,000,000 marks was paid by them. The Reich Minister of Finance once told me that only the first installment of that sum was paid. It amounted to about 60,000,000 marks.
Q. Now, when an enterprise was sold to a Baltic German was the price fixed, and how?
A. The price, as far as these Baltic enterprises were concerned, had to be paid in cash, but as the German Baltic Resettlement Company which looked after the property of these resettled Baltics did not have the money, and it had to request its funds actually from the Reich Minister of Finance. I was asked not to insist on cash payments, and in negotiations with the Reich Minister of Finance I gave my agreement that we would not insist on cash payments. That means that I would issue bonds, as it were, for the German Baltic Resettlement Company, and I would deposit it as cash with the Main German Treasury. This was actually done.
Q. Were you a member of the SS?
A. No.
Q. Thank you very much.
DR. GAWLICK: I have no further questions.
DR. FRITSCH: (counsel for the defendant Baier): May it please the court, I have only a very few question which resulted from the cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Dr. Winkler, you named the sum of one point six billions as having been at your disposal toward the end of the war. Was that sum only the result of appraisals or did it also include the profits?
A. This sum contained everything. It was the total amount, as we call it, and included both profits and appraisals. I should like to say that my greatest difficulty was to have the big enterprises, coal and iron, in Silesia administered properly, and therefore, my main efforts were always directed toward appraising those enterprises, which was done. And the amount which I have named contains -I am tempted to say -- almost half of the results of what was done with the enterprises in Upper-Silesia. Therefore, the other enterprises amounted to only a fraction of the one point six billions.
Q. I am now coming to a question put to you by Professor Kempner. You said that the total property of which you were in charge amounted to about 15 to 20 billions in your estimation. Was this active capital or should part if this have been used to meet obligations which are always connected with large capital?
A. It was not possible to have an enormous complex of this sort administered and at the same time meet debts, obligations, checks, etc, in a separate manner and keep it under constant observation.
Our Trusteeship Agency, therefore, decided one day to issue a regulation concerning debts and demands, and that regulation after a long period of preparation was passed by the ministries concerned.
Q. Excuse me, Herr Winkler. All I am interested in is this: You named this sum, 15 or 20 billions, and you said it was only according to your estimation. Please tell me simply this: Was this active capital or was some of it used for something else?
A. No, this was the active capital.
Q. Then, very briefly, let us clear up this point of larceny which has been touched upon here. I would like to ask you to give me your reactions to an example which I shall now formulate. Let us assume that in the Warthegau, you had a shoe shop, the owner of which had fled the country. Now, what did your agency do with that shop?
A. It was seized just like any other enterprise, and if it was possible to furnish it with new goods, since you couldn't get them,anyway, it was sold out; that is to say the goods would have been sold on the basis of the ration allowances issued by other agencies. The population would have received the goods, and once this had been done, the shop would have to close down.
Q. Dr. Winkler, you were a little too fast. That shop was found, there were goods there, but no owner. Now, was somebody appointed to run the shop, or was it done bureaucratically by a department, as you told us just now?
A. No, no, of course, an expert, trained salesman,-a man or woman was appointed as an administrator on a com mission basis, or as we did not have a sufficient number of these people, the administrator looked after a number of such enterprises and hired employees who knew their business.
Q. And now when he had several enterprises, what was his name, his designation?
A. Administrator general, administrator general, yes.
Q. And a man like that was Pohl, for Instance, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you very much.
DR. FRITSCH: No further question.
MR. KEMPNER: Your Honors, I would like to straighten out the record with a few questions which came up. In the meantime I have received the record of my previous conversation with Herr Winkler. May I ask some of the questions just as I asked him that other time in German. Do you have any objection?
THE PRESIDENT: How's that now?
MR. KEMPNER: May I ask some of the questions in order to avoid any translation difficulties just in the German as I asked them before of him.
THE PRESIDENT: I guess that will work. Let's try it.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. KEMPNER:
Q. Did you tell me at the time that you were deeply shocked?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. That was about as early as I gained my first impression, which was my most moving one when I visited the Ghetto of Lodz.
Q. What did you do in the Ghetto of Lodz?
A. There I wanted to inspect the work done by the inmates there. I was led around there, and I saw that only a few people were there.
Q. Where were the other people?
A. Well, I put a question to the man who was my guide where the others were because formerly they had more, and I was told they had gone away.
Q. What did you think, where could they have gone to, Heaven or hell?
A. I thought that something wrong had been done here, and I thought that they probably had gone to Heaven.
Q. You knew that these poor people were dead, did you?
A. No, I did not know that, but unhappily I had to assume so.
Q. That was in what year?
A. It must have been about 1942.
Q. And the SS were your guides there, were they?
A. No, no, I was never led around by the SS. It was a private employee of the agency, of the Trusteeship Agency.
Q. But you knew that the Ghetto was administered by the SS?
A. I saw SS people there, but I didn't know too many details.
Q. Were they there on a holiday or to administer the camp?
A. To guard the camp.
Q. To guard the camp?
A. Yes, to guard the camp.
Q. And that was the same SS to whom you had left a number of properties which you had seized in order to have them administered?
DR. GAWLICK: May it please the Court, I raise an objection here. The cross examination is over, and the recross can only concern itself with questions which refer to my redirect examination.
MR. KEMPNER: I think that is the general topic which was covered by both of the defense counsel, the knowledge whether this was the same SS or whether there were two SS organizations, the one in concentration camp guards and the others took over such property. I think that this is pertinent at the present moment.
DR. GAWLICK: If Your Honors, please the witness is in no position to answer the questions of whether that was the same SS, since he was not a member of the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he can say that if he wants to. He probably will now. You don't know whether he can answer the question, do you?
DR. GAWLICK: First of all, I have raised the objection that this recross examination must not discuss a totally different topic from the one used in the redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Gawlick, if you and the other defense counsel want to invoke this ruling, I think you will regret it. You have been given a very free hand, and, of course, have violated the rule that you are now invoking. You don't want us to close down and be more strict do you?
DR. GAWLICK: I think that I shall withdraw my objection, if Your Honors, please.
BY DR. KEMPNER:
Q. Were there two SS organizations in Germany or one?
A. There were two SS organizations, the Allgemeine-SS and the Waffen-SS.
Q. Were the people who administered concentration camps members of the same SS as Herr Bobermin?
A. I assume so, yes.
Q. One final question to you, Herr Winkler, and please give me your answer to the best of your knowledge and belief. Do you regret today that you were the administrator of stolen property, by the order of other people? Answer with yes or no.
A. May I ask the Court's indulgence if I give a long answer? I would like to give the Tribunal an explanation how it happened that I was involved in these things.
Q. First of all, I want to know whether you regret those awful things?
A. Yes, I regret them deeply since they came to my knowledge.
MR. KEMPNER: That is all I have to ask.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLICK:
Q. Witness, please give us the statements which you wanted to make.
A. In order to supplement my curriculum vitae, I want to add that when I lost my job as Buergermeister of Graudenz in 1919, accident came to help me, when I was appointed a democrat deputy; the Reich government of the day asked me to consult with them and advise them about the economic conditions in my native province.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Is this really going back to the Trojan war?
A. No, I shall be extremely brief.
DR. GAWLICK: May it please the Court, my present question has been brought about by the Prosecution, whether the witness regrets all these things. He must give us reason. Had this question not been put, I would not have asked it either.
THE PRESIDENT: It is another instance of two wrongs not making a right, yours and the Prosecution's.Let's take the witness' promise that he will be very brief.
WITNESS: In my work as a custodian it seems I was fairly successful, and nineteen chancellors of Germany -- nineteen different German governments prior to Hitler's government -- used my services in that capacity. Hitler was the twentieth chancellor of Germany, and on the day after the election he had me asked by State-Secretary Funk whether I wished to continue my work. I pointed out, first, that I was his opponent, that I had said so publicly, and that, therefore, I could not give my answer just like that. When the question was repeated I said that I wished to continue my present field of work. He reported my affirmative answer to Goering -- which was to me the best proof that the Gestapo would have come and fetched me if I had declined. I then worked on the same problems which I had dealt with before; that is to say, I looked after newspaper publication houses, and thus it came about that I became involved with the problem which Dr. Kempner has referred to: the Ullstein firm.
I had too get used to this work slowly and gradually, and like many other Germans, I had no idea where this new German government would finally lead us. Therefore, I had to accept Goering's order in 1939 - and this is what I want to state to the Court solemnly: throughout the years I have attempted to the best of my belief and knowledge, and by not sparing my own person -- I did not receive any fees for my work -- to do my duty as a citizen of the Reich. When I obtained knowledge of the excesses committed by the government, I deeply regretted that I had been involved in this -- and please believe me, I would give anything if it had not been my duty to do these things. I did them, and I would ask the Tribunal to bear in mind that without knowing how I was being abused I was involved in these things. I regret it deeply, but I could not do otherwise, so help me God.
Q Did you have the feeling at the time when you did this work that you were doing something wicked?
A Certainly not, in the first years. Only after I heard about these things which should not have happened -
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions, Dr. Gawlik.
DR. GAWLIK: I wanted to ask about the membership in the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all right.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q You also said that Dr. Bobermin had belonged to the same SS which guarded the concentration camps. Do you know to what SS Dr. Bobermin belonged?
A No, I don't know that. I simply assumed because it wasn't the Waffen-SS, and the only difference made by me was between the Allgemeine SS and the Waffen-SS, that Herr Bobermin probably belonged to the Allgemeine SS.
Q Now, if I tell you that Bobermin was a member of the Waffen SS -
A Then I was mistaken.
Q If I also tell you that the concentration camps were guarded by the Death Head Unit and independent units, do you know anything about that?
A I am afraid I don't know all these details about the SS. I didn't bother about them.
Q Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no other questions of this witness, he may be excused.
(Witness excused.)
DR. GAWLIK: With the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to ask the defendant Dr. Bobermin to take the witness stand.
DR. FICHT (Counsel for defendant Klein): May it please the Court, may I make a formal application to this Court? I request that the defendant Klein be excused from tomorrow's session throughout the day in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: He may be excused, Dr. Ficht.
HANS BOBERMIN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Will you please raise your right hand and repeat after me? I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(Witness repeated the oath)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendants Volk and Bobermin):
Q Is your name Hans Bobermin?
A My name is Johannes Karl Bernhard Bobermin - I am usually called Hans.
Q On 16 January 1947 you gave an affidavit, and there you described your curriculum vitae. This is Document NO-1566, Exhibit 19, in Volume One, on page 111 of the German document book.
Have you anything to add to these statements?
A I should like to add a few sentences, yes. My youth was very difficult and hard. My father died when I was very young. The first World War and the difficult years after it, the revolutions lasting for years, struggles and wars in the border areas, inflation and unemployment -- did not give me the peace and quietness which I would have needed for my studies. As the profession of my life I chose to work in the realm of economics and social science. I did not regard economy from the point of view of the individual owner; that is to say, from the point of view of the business man, but with the eyes of a national economist.
My burning desire was to be able to study abroad for a while, but this could not be fulfilled. Only very much later, when I became an assistant for foreign relations in the German municipal organization, was I able to make several trips to western European countries. In Germany, I and several other colleagues met men of all shades of political opinions from all parts of the globe on those occasions.
The exchange of technical ideas created human relations which have survived even this war. Throughout my life I completely concentrated on my work. In 1938 I had achieved the aim of my life; namely, to be in an important and secure position as an executive official. Since the outbreak of the war this position was destroyed again, for the second time.
As far as my family life is concerned, I should like to add that I am a married man, and have three children aged between seven and twelve years.
Q You were with the German municipal organization before the war?
A Yes.
Q What was that organization?
A The German municipal organization was an association of the German cities, villages, counties and townships.
Q What was its task?
A It was an association for technical experts only to advise the municipalities in carrying out their duties. Also, it had the task, by forming communities and expert committees, to promote the exchange of experiences between the organizations which were working on a selfadministrative basis.
Q Was the German municipal organization a party organization or did it belong to any of its formations?
A No.
Q Can you give us brief reasons for that?
A The German municipal organization was a corporation under public law by virtue of a German Reich law. Its members could only be municipalities. It was under the supervision of the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
Q In your affidavit you further stated that in February, 1938, you became the manager of German advertising in large cities. What was that organization?