It may be actually that possibly some pages are missing from the book.
THE WITNESS: I've just found it.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q:NO-1292?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you receive a copy of this letter, or did you read it on or about the 10th of March 1942?
A: I can't recall that. I can't remember having received it.
Q: Will you turn to the list of construction projects attached to this letter from Kammler. They are numbered from 1 to 61. Find that?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you look at item 2, and tell us who controlled the Brick Works at Auschwitz?
A: There were no Brick Works at Auschwitz, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q: Well, Dr. Kammler writes that he is completing the Brick Works at the Grubin Branch of concentration camp Auschwitz. Do you know what company controlled that Brick Works?
A: Are you referring to Grubin?
Q: Yes.
A: As far as I can recall this plant belonged to a company with the defendant Dr. Bobermin was connected.
Q: Will you turn to item 29.
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't Dr. Kammler state there that he is completing the plant buildings at Allach?
A: Mr. Prosecutor, Allach is a locality near Dachau.
As far as I know some large armament industries were established there during the war. The DEST did not operate any enterprises there. The porcelain manufacturing company Allach was located at Dachau.
Q: Then you deny that this item #29 refers to the construction of a plant building having anything to do with the Allach porcelain company?
A: No, that is completely out of the question.
Q: Let's look at item 35, concerning Weimar Buchenwald. You find after the note that he is extending the crematorium, the phrase "Klinker Works Berlstedt."
A: Klinker Works Berlstedt, I can tell you about that with a good conscience that the Office Group C had no construction carried out with the Klinker Works at Berlstedt.
Q: What does this reference in the letter have -- what does it mean?
A: I can't tell you that either.
Q: Then your testimony is that this is a mistake, that in fact Kammler never did any construction work in connection with the Klinker Works at Berlstedt, is that correct?
A: I don't know that he should have constructed at Berlstedt.
Q: Your testimony is that you don't know that he did anything there?
A: Here this could only refer to the small camp which was located near the plant Berlstedt. However, this was not a construction matter of DEST.
Q: He actually says, "Klinker Works, Berlstedt." That is a mistake in your opinion?
A: Yes, it is a mistake in my opinion. Here probably he only refers to the locality.
Q: What relation did W-1 or DEST have with Amtsgruppe A of the WVHA?
A: The DEST had relations with the legal office A-III whenever some contracts were to be concluded with the German Reich.
Q: Did you have any contact with the personnel office in Amtsgruppe A?
A: With the personnel office we had to deal insofar as it concerns the members of our staff who had been conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q: What contacts did you have with B?
A: Actually, we had no contact at all with them. The Office Chief of B-II, Lechler, only helped me repeatedly in procuring clothing, and above all, working clothes, additionally for us. However, that was not party of his duties. He only did this in order to do me a favor.
Q: Did you ever -
A: After all, the Office of which he was in charge was an affair of the Reich, and his field of tasks did not extend to supplying us with clothing.
Q: Did you ever have any contact with Amtsgruppe B in connection with extra food about which you have made some mention?
A: No.
Q: What about Amtsgruppe D?
A: Here we dealt with the Office D-II with regard to all questions arising out of the allocation of inmates. We dealt with them whenever locally no agreement could be reached. In individual cases I also had discussions with the Chief of Office Group D. Above all in 1944 because at that time I stayed at Oranienburg, and whenever I reported to Pohl, Pohl would tell me to go and settle this matter with Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
This was done in order to save him a telephone call.
Q: What did these conversations concern? Is that simply the matter of the release of inmates about which you have talked so much, or was it something else?
A: No, it also dealt with, for examples, difficulties in the procurement of food, accommodations, and clothing.
Q: Just these little incidental matters which came up about food and clothing, is that right?
A: Well, whenever difficulties occurred.
Q: You said there was a quarry in Mauthausen which was not controlled by DEST, is that correct?
A In the area of Mauthausen there were several firms which had quarries, among them there was the municipality of Vienna, and a firm of Buschhacher. There were also some other firms there. However, I can't recall their names at the moment.
Q Did they all use inmates?
A I know from the plant manager that inmates were also used in these quarries. However, I can't give you any further details about that.
Q Didn't you testify that the concentration camp Mauthausen itself opened a quarry within the camp?
A I stated that the camp Flossenbuerg had its own quarry.
Q Did you know any of the officials in the Labor Assignment Office at Mauthausen?
A I haven't quite understood the question. (Question repeated) On one occasion, at St. Georgen, I had a discussion with the commander and a Labor Allocation Officer Schuetz -- or he had a similar name -participated in that conference.
Q Obersturmfuehrer Schuetz, is that right?
A I don't know his rank any more; he was an Obersturmfuehrer or a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q Did you know a man named Luetscher, L-u-e-t-s-c-h-e-r-?
A Could you repeat the name, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Luetscher.
A No, I can't recall that name at all.
Q What about Dettmann and Kraemer?
A Dettmann? No.
Q Kraemer?
A Kraemer? No, that name doesn't mean anything to me.
Q Did Amt W-1 ever have any correspondence with this Labor Assignment Office in Mauthausen?
AAs far as I can recall, whenever any correspondence took place this correspondence must have gone to the commandants' headquarters.
Just where the concentration camp headquarters would pass them on to, I don't know.
Q Did you know a certain Hans Grimm in connection with your quarry operation in Mauthausen?
A I understood you to say Klein.
Q Grimm, G-r-i-m-m.
A Yes, he was the plant manager in the Wienergraben.
Q He was subordinated to Walther, is that right?
A If that is the Grimm I am thinking of, yes.
Q Let me put Document NO-3104. to you, witness. Now, this is a rather long affidavit, defendant, and we can't read all of it. It is an affidavit by a man named Sanner who was committed to Mauthausen in 1941, and remained there until the end of the war; and he worked in the Labor Assignment Office in Mauthausen.
May I be informed of the next exhibit number?
SECRETARY GENERAL: Six hundred twenty one.
Q I will ask that that document, NO-3104 be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 621 for identification.
Paragraph 15 of this affidavit, defendant. The affiant gives his superiors, one of which you knew, namely, Obersturmfuehrer Schuetz in the Labor Assignment Office.
Paragraph 28 of the Affidavit. He tells us that Amt W-1 of the WVHA had correspondence with the Labor Assignment Office in connection with the DEST quarries in Mauthausen.
In paragraph 39 he tells you about Hans Grimm. Will you direct your attention to paragraph 33 of the affidavit?
A 33?
Q Yes. Do you know anything about the incident of the murder of these 36 prisoners of war in the DEST quarry at Mauthausen in 1944?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I can tell you to the best of my belief and conscience that I never heard anything about this.
Q Will you note that in paragraphs 30 and 31 that the affiant states that the penal company worked in the DEST quarries, and that that cases of death among them varied between 20 and 30 during the years '43 and '44?
THE PRESIDENT: Twenty and thirty per day?
MR. MC HANEY: Twenty to thirty cases daily during the years 1943 and 1944.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Do you know anything about that, witness?
A What I heard from Mauthausen, about a transportation convoy I have already testified about in my direct examination. Of these two things which I mentioned here in paragraph 31 and 33 I know nothing.
I just can't understand it.
Q Will you turn to paragraphs 37 and 38? Did you know anything about the employment of 200 to 300 Russian prisoners of war in the DEST quarry in the winter of 1941-42?
A No, later on I heard that prisoners of war were to be trailed in certain work. However, I don't know anything about the incident which has been mentioned here.
Q Well, as a matter of fact, wouldn't you know if prisoners of war were employed in the DEST quarries?
A I certainly should have found out about that, in some way.
Q And you know nothing of course about the twenty to thirty dead who were brought back doily from among these prisoners of war?
A If something like that had happened, then certainly the plant manager would have notified me about that in some form or other.
Q Will you look at paragraph 41?
A Yes.
Q Do you know anything about the employment of these Dutch Jews in '41 and '43 in the DEST quarries?
A I have already stated in my direct examination that I don't know anything about this, and I can't understand this matter at all.
Q You did know something about the transport of Dutch Jews in 1944, though, didn't you?
A 1944? No.
Q Well, we will come to that in a moment, but the Herzogenbusch Diamond letter which you wrote and signed very clearly states that in 1944 the Reichsfuehrer-SS ordered the deportation of Jews from Holland.
Will you turn to paragraph 42 and 43? Do you know anything about the employment of Russian PW's in the DEST quarries in Mauthausen in the fall of 1942 and in '43?
A. I heard about the fact that prisoners of war were to be used; however, to what extent this was actually done, I don't know.
Q Well, you can't exclude the possibility that Russian prisoners of war were used in the DEST quarries then, can you defendant?
A. It was intended that Russain prisoners of war were to be trained as stone masons.
Q. That was part of the training program to get specialists who were going to rebuild the Reich after the war, is that right, as free laborers? That is, Russian prisoners of war.
A. Yes, they were to be released eventually.
Q. Now what sort of offices did Amt W-I maintain in the concentration camps?
A. In the concentration camps, Mr. Prosecutor, there was no office at all. The administration office of the DEST was located at St. Georgen.
Q. I am speaking of the camps generally now. In Mauthausen alone, you remember in the letter to Koegel referring to your visit to Flossenbuerg, which I put to you about an hour ago, you made reference to the subsidiary office of W-I in Flossenbuerg.
A. THat was not within the camp area either.
Q. That was just the plant?
A. Yes, it was within the plant.
Q. And you referred to that office with the fictional title "Subsidiary Office, W-I" is that right?
A. This title at that time was chosen exactly as the designation was shown for the offices. With that we referred to the plant management.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 August 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal II in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 7 August, 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom please take your seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
KARL MUMMENTHEY - Resumed
CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q May it please the Tribunal, defendant, did the plant managers live in the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Your testimony is that none of the plant managers lived within the concentration camps?
A I can't recall any of them ever lived in concentration camps. As far as I can recall in all the plants they had special buildings where the plant managers were living.
Q Is it not true that the plant managers had to make frequent trips within the concentration camp itself, as for example, to see the labor assignment officer?
A I only know of the plant managers that they had conferences with the commanding officers in the commandant's headquarters where the other agencies were located. I don't know any more.
Q Do you know whether any of the plant managers made an inspection of the concentration camp, for example, inspected the billets of the inmates, the hygiene facilities, the food, things of that nature?
A I have already stated before that in the small labor camps which were directly located near the camp, for example, Berstaedt, Oranienburg, Reimannsfelde, and Neurohlau, the plant managers, as well as myself, looked at the accommodations on various occasions, for example, the mess hall and the preparation of the food and so on.
Q What about concentration camps other than the small labor camps?
A I didn't hear anything about the fact that plant managers lived in the camps themselves. I know, for example, that the plant managers if they were civilian employees, had to wear a special insignia to enter the plants so they could be recognized.
Q Well, your testimony is then that you do not know of any plant manager having made an inspection of the living conditions of the inmates working for DEST in the concentration camps themselves?
A I did not hear about that as far as the big concentration camps were concerned.
Q Now, in the labor camps which the plant managers and yourself inspected, were you satisfied with the conditions which you found there? Did you find them to be adequate?
A I can say that with a good conscience, yes.
Q And what was the last inspection you made of such labor camps?
A That was at Neurohlau.
Q When?
A In 1945, in the Spring.
Q And you found things in good shape there?
A Mr. Prosecutor, may I point out something in this connection. In the last days of its existence an artillery unit was placed in the camp of Neurohlau and I can recall the camp commandant and his adjutant went to see the Board of Directors of Bohemia and. I happened to be present. After inspecting the camp he stated that by labor or concentration camp he thought of something different. Such mess accommodations and billets as he had seen at Neurohlau could hardly he found in any troop unit, therefore, he would use the camp for his staff and his men as the command post.
Q Not necessary to give such a long answer as that. You found the conditions satisfactory and good in the labor camp you visited?
A Yes.
Q Now, of course, the plant managers and yourself had an opportunity of speaking to the inmates who were working for DEST, did they not?
AActually it was forbidden to talk to inmates. In the first years of the war it had not been permitted to do that. After all we had to sign a memorandum containing about nine points. According to this we were not allowed to talk to inmates with the exception of about professional matters. We were not allowed to establish contact for the inmate with the outside world. And the final point was whoever violates one of these would have to count on the fact that he himself would be brought into the concentration camp. A large number of civilian workers and employees were brought into the concentration camp because they violated the regulations contained in the memorandum.
Q Well, did you submit yourself to this regulation?
A I had to do that.
Q You complied with it?
A I did not comply with it any more during the last years. If I was able to violate it without other persons observing I did so.
Q What do you mean by the last years? When did you start violating it?
A In 1943 and 1944, above all 1944 at Oranienburg.
Q Well, did you ask inmates about the food they were receiving in the camp, about their billets, and about hygiene facilities?
A I asked the inmates whether they had any complaints at all.
Q What did they say?
A In any case they did not voice any complaints. They only stated they had requests. These requests referred to various things. They always requested they be allowed additional tobacco, and would like to receive more newspapers.
Q Well, witness, it seems to me that the nub of your testimony is that because of the various restrictions placed upon you and upon your plant managers it was impossible for you to gain any information about the food which was given to the inmates at their morning and evening meals, about the billeting facilities, about the hygiene conditions, about their treatment within the camp, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Weren't you curious to find out the life and conditions of your slave laborers during the time they were not in your plants?
A That already becomes evident from the fact that in all cases where it was possible for me I would look at the accommodations of our employees.
Q But you never looked at the accommodation of your employees except in the small labor camps, isn't that true?
A The detachment leaders of the small camps stated that in the big camps the inmates had the same accommodations. The commandant also told me the same story.
Q Well, were you willing to rely on what the camp commander and the labor detachment leaders told you? You were satisfied with their explanations about the labor conditions.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A That had to be sufficient for me at the time. After all I could not interfere in their field of competence. I already interfered in other fields of work more than it was good for me, and as a result of this I had constantly difficulties.
Q Now, Defendant, if you were really interested in finding out what the conditions were within the camp with respect to the inmates that you were using to work in your plant, is there any reason you couldn't have gone to the Defendant Pohl and said, "I would like to inspect these concentration camps; I want to satisfy myself that my workers are being properly treated?"
A I have already stated before that I did visit the small labor camps. I also visited Oranienburg, and that actually was a bigger camp, and therefore there was no reason for me to inspect all the camps.
Q Your answer is you didn't care to inspect the other camps, the big ones. It was not that you couldn't have done it if you wished to, was it?
AAfter all there was no reason for me to have any suspicion in that matter at all.
Q You testified that the hours of work here - did not exceed nine to ten hours per day, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct according to my recollection.
Q How many days a week did they work?
A Generally they would only work during the week days. Work on Sundays, as far as I can recall, only referred to exceptional cases, and the people who worked on Sundays would receive a particular day off during the week.
Q In other words, they normally worked from Monday through Saturday, and sometimes on Sunday?
A They would work until Saturday noon. In an industrial plant there were certain departments which have to work seven days a week. They have to work constantly, and that is the case in every industrial enterprise. The persons who work on a Sunday will receive a day off during the week.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q In other words, an inmate worked five and a half days a week, is that right?
A Five and a half days; yes.
Q Did you receive any information about mistreatment of inmates while they were working by labor commando leaders?
A I didn't receive any reports at all from the labor detachment leaders.
Q I didn't ask you whether you received reports from the labor detachment leaders; I said did you receive any reports that the labor detachment leaders mistreated inmates while they were working in DEST plants?
A The labor detachment leaders? I don't know whom you are referring to. The labor allocation leaders?
Q No, no, I am referring to the guards, the persons who guarded the inmates while they were working. Did you receive any reports that those guards mistreated the workers?
A I have already stated in the course of my direct examination that in the course of the years I heard on several occasions that guards, and in particular the capos, had committed excesses toward the inmates. The plant manager intervened directly, and I myself made representations to the commanders about that.
Q Now, if I understood your testimony that was restricted to the years '39 and '40. Did you receive those complaints right on through the war?
A I can hardly recall a single case from '43 and 1944. I don't think that anything like that came to my attention during that time. It did not come to my attention in written reports at all, but in the course of our discussions it would be occasionally mentioned. However, I really can't say that this took place on a large scale and repeatedly.
Q Well, you did get some reports in '39, '40, '41, and '42?
A Yes, in these reports these matters were discussed.
Q And you say those reports might reflect those incidents of mistreatment?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A They were not reports about mistreatment, but in oral discussions these matters were mentioned.
Q I didn't understand your answer. Please repeat it.
A They were not contained in written reports, but this matter would be mentioned in oral discussions.
Q Witness, I don't care how you received the information. question was how frequently these incidents occurred in the years from '39 to '42?
A I have already stated that this happened on several occasions. I can't tell you the exact time for that. I can't tell you how many times it would happen.
Q Several occasions altogether or several times for each plant, or what?
A On the whole.
Q Several times on the whole?
A However, I cannot say altogether that this had happened so frequently that we can talk about constant mistreatment or something of that sort. That was not the case at all. The plant managers always stated that here we were dealing with individual excesses.
Q In other words, mistreatment was really not much of a problem. It was a very isolated occurrence, is that right?
A I am not talking about a big problem or a small problem, Mr. Prosecutor, but I have told you about the facts which came to my attention and where I took certain steps. I can only repeat these matters from the point of view as they came to my attention at that time in my field of work.
Q Now, you testified that you got heavy rations for inmates. That is a pretty general statement. When did you get these heavy rations, and for what plant did you get them? From whom did you get them?
A Well, we handled this matter in the following manner: I can recall, I believe it was already in 1941, that this additional ration was requested for the civilian population. The plant manager now listed all Court No. II, Case No. 4.the names of the inmates who could be considered for this additional food ration, and he passed on this list to the commandant's office, and the commandant's office then went to the competent economic office, and they requested the appropriate number of food ration cards.
I ordered the plant managers to be very generous in this respect and as far as possible when any plausible reason could be given at all that these inmates should be included in that particular list. I further told the plant managers that if any difficulties should arise from these false statements I would cover them at any time.
Q You mean you asked the plant managers to make false statements in order to obtain food, is that right?
A Well, he was to compile false statistics.
Q And what was the reason for making the false statements, to get more food?
A In order to get additional food for a large number of inmates.
Q Well, Defendant, it seems to me that that presupposes the fact that the inmates were not getting enough food before this, isn't that correct?
A One cannot put it in that general way. During the war every enterprise tried to get additional food for its employees. I know that from the numerous discussions which I had with other enterprises. They followed exactly the same procedure for their civilian employees, and also for their other workers. Every responsible plant considered that to be its duty.
Q Well, so while you wouldn't say that the food was insufficient prior to the time you had these false statistics filed, you were willing to personally run the risk of being charged with having obtained food under false pretenses and by fraud; you were willing to run the risk of being tried and convicted, even though you didn't regard the food before that time as being insufficient, is that correct?
A In this respect I shared the fate of numerous German enterprises and the responsible executives in these enterprises, who, during the war, acted in the same way. On behalf of their workers, they also Court No. II, Case No. 4.took this very great danger upon them.
Q From whom was this food actually obtained? You got your food stamps from the food ministry. Where did you get the food from itself?
A I have already stated, Mr. Prosecutor, that the camp administration would receive the coupons from the competent economic office. Just how the matter was handled in detail I don't know.
Q Now, Witness, we didn't quite get the fact straight about the reports on deaths among inmates working for DEST, and I ask you, did you ever receive a report of any kind stating that deaths had occurred among the inmates working for a DEST enterprise?
A I cannot recall ever having received such a report.
Q So your testimony is that you received no report of even a single death?
A I have already stated in my direct examination that accidents occurred in the plants. They would be brought to my knowledge.
Q Now how does - how do you reconcile that with just what you told me? You said you received no report of any death among any inmate working for DEST. Now you say you received a report of certain accidents. Was anybody killed in these accidents?
AAs far as I can recall we had a fatal accident at one time at Flossenbuerg. The person later on died of his injuries. I know that because the legal department worked on the accident insurance, etc. I also know such a case from Oranienburg. This happened in the year 1944.
Q These two deaths you remember having received a report on, is that correct?
A Yes, it was a plant accident with fatal results.
Q Other than those two deaths you received no reports, no information about deaths among the inmates working for DEST, is that right?
A I can't recall any additional ones.
Q Let's look briefly at Document NO-1049. That is in Book XVI, Exhibit 436. Did you find that, Witness?
A Yes, 436.
Q. And this is a report signed by yourself, dated 12 June 1942, giving a report on the DEST enterprises for the month of May, 1942, and it is addressed to Dr. Hohberg, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you turn to page 8 of the original of that report, and if the Tribunal please, that is page 46 of the translation.
Did you find the report on Flossenbuerg under the Roman numeral one on page 8 of the original of the report?
A. It is on page 9 of the German text, Flossenbuerg.
Q. And doesn't the first sentence where you mention supplementary rations which resulted in an increase of labor output, doesn't that statement indicate to you that you had some information about the supply of food to the inmates working for DEST? Weren't you able to observe that by increasing that food ration to some extent you were able to get more labor?
A. Well, that was the information which I received from the plant management.
Q. Didn't you receive the same information from all plant managements?
A. I can't recall that at the moment.
Q. Look under 2, Mauthausen, second paragraph.
A. Yes.
Q. Doesn't that indicate that you had rather detailed knowledge of the assignment of inmates to your enterprises? You mention here that the Gnoler Works are going to be given an additional number of inmates from the Auschwitz concentration camp next month. You had detailed knowledge about the allocation of inmates to your enterprises, didn't you defendant? You even knew from what camp they were coming, didn't you?
A. Whether every report gave so many details, I can't tell you anymore today.
In this case it was mentioned.
Q. Well, you were generally informed of the details of the assignment of inmates to the enterprises, weren't you, witness? You knew where there were shortages, and you made applications for more workers, and you knew from what camp they were coining from, didn't you?
A. In this case, yes. Whether this applied in all cases, I can't tell you anymore today.
Q. You don't know about that anymore. Don't you know that those inmates from Auschwitz were Jews?
A. They didn't have to be, they could have just as well be other inmates.
Q. You don't know the proportion of Jewish inmates in Auschwitz as compared to other inmates, do you, witness?
A. No.
Q. Now, will you note in the last paragraph under Mauthausen the reference to the training of Soviet PW's. Do I understand your testimony to be that this plan to train Soviet prisoners of war is the only instance of a proposed use of prisoners of war in the DEST enterprises that you know about?
A. This cites the case which I have already mentioned in my direct examination. I can't recall any other cases. Just to what extent the plan which has been described here was actually executed, I don't know.
Q. Well, your testimony is with respect -- now, just a minute. Your testimony is with respect to PW's that all you know is that they proposed or planned to use Russian prisoners of war in the training program in Mauthausen? You do not know in fact whether they did use prisoners of war in Mauthausen, is that correct?
A. I can't tell you anymore today just to what extent this pro gran was actually carried out.