THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Defendant, doesn't it make a difference in the efficient operation of a plant as to whether your labor force is stable?
A. Yes.
Q. Doesn't it seriously effect the operation of a business to have the labor force turn over rapidly?
A. Naturally.
Q. Did you ever make inquiries as to the rate of turn over of the inmate labor used in the DEST plants?
A. Apparently we had no reason to do so. After all I didn't get any figures to the extent and actually there was no indication that this rapid turn over which you seem to assume took place.
Q. Your answer is that you never made any inquiry, is that correct?
A. I did not see anything spectacular which caused me to follow up these things. After all it would have to express itself in some form.
Q. So your answer is no?
A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I gave a statement about that.
Q. You never discussed such matters in your meetings with plant managers?
A. The working capability of the inmates was discussed but the plant managers never stated that in plants of DEST inmates had died.
Q. You never discussed a high incidence of illness in your inmates with the plant managers?
A. I have already stated that in connection with the epidemics which occurred several times in the camp these things were discussed.
Q. What were these epidemics, when did they occur, how many people were effected, what years?
A. As far as I can recall this happened in the years 1941 and 42. Here we had several different types of epidemics. The plants which were effected by that in my opinion were Oranienburg, Nauengamme, Gross-Rosen, Flossenbuerg, and St-Georgen.
Q That is Mauthausen?
A Yes. We called it St. Georgen because the administration was located there. The camp was called Mauthausen.
Q All right, that is all. You had epidemics in '41 and '42. What kind of epidemics were they?
AAs far as I can recall we had typhus.
Q Did you say typhus?
A Typhoid.
Q That is typhoid.
A I know that, because as I have stated before this epidemic also affected the SS, and also our civilian employees were affected. I know that several people of our employees suffered from that disease at the time.
Q Well, was this typhoid epidemic the only one you know anything about '41 and '42?
AAs far as I can recall it was a case of typhoid everywhere.
Q That was the only epidemic you know anything about?
A Yes, I can recall that.
Q How many inmates were affected by that epidemic?
A I can't give you the exact figure any more, but I think it was quite a large number.
Q And other than these epidemics of typhoid in '41 and '42 you didn't have any discussions in your meetings with plant managers nor did you receive any reports on the incidence of illness of the inmates of the DEST enterprises, is that right?
A I don't understand the translation.
Q I say, other than this epidemic, typhoid epidemic, in '41 and '42, you had no discussions of the incidence of illness with your plant managers in your meetings, nor did you receive any reports on the incidence of illness among the inmates working for DEST?
A I don't understand a word, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q Now, other than the typhoid epidemic which you mentioned in 1941 and 1942, you know of no other epidemic which occurred among inmates working for DEST?
A Mr. Prosecutor, these epidemics occurred in the camps, and we found out about it through the fact, because the inmates did not come to work for plants, and the plants had to lie idle for that reason.
Q Those are the only epidemics you know anything about?
A These are the ones I can recall.
Q You didn't discuss the incidence of illness among inmates working for DEST in any of your meetings with plant managers, nor did you receive any reports on the incidence of illness?
AAbout these cases of epidemics we did receive reports.
Q I say, other than those.
A I can't recall having heard anything further about it.
Q And in your meetings with plant managers you made no inquiries about the general physical condition of the inmates working in DEST enterprises, is that right?
AAbout the physical condition of the inmates, this matter was discussed several times in connection with the food problem.
Q And what was the report that you received, was their physical condition adequate or inadequate?
A This was different at the various time periods and the various localities. We were informed through reports and discussions that amongst the inmates there were also those people whose physical condition was not adequate for the work as we wanted and needed it. For that reason I always urged that all these inmates should not be used for work in the enterprises.
Q When did this occur, you got a report that the physical condition of some of the inmates working for DEST was not good? What camp was this, when did it occur, what are the facts? Your statement is extremely general.
A From the last years, '43 and '44, I can hardly remember that I heard any important statements by the plant managers, during that period, from the year 1941 and 1942, apparently in connection with the epidemics, these matters were discussed.
Q Well, is it your testimony then that the general physical condition of inmates working for DEST was poor in the years 1941 and 1942 and was all right in 1943 and 1944, is that your testimony?
A Mr. Prosecutor, one can't say that the physical condition was poor. Amongst the inmates there were some who looked very good. I would like to say they were well rounded. However, I can't say on the basis of my own observations, and on the basis of statements by the plant managers, that undernourished inmates who were incapable of performing any physical work had been employed in the enterprise. I wouldn't have tolerated it, neither would the plant managers.
Q Your testimony then in that you employed only physically healthy inmates, isn't that right? What is your position?
A What I want to say is that we only used those workers who were physically satisfactory. If the prerequisites were not fulfilled, then the plant manager would make a statement that a certain inmate would have to be in the necessary physical condition to perform his work.
Q In other words, if through some fluke you got an inmate who was in poor health, you told the camp management and said, "We can't use this man," and you sent him back to the camp, and that was that.
A I haven't heard the question.
THE PRESIDENT: "Fluke" is a little bit difficult to translate.
MR. MC HANEY: What is that?
THE PRESIDENT: "Fluke" is a little bit difficult.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Your testimony then is that you had a rule that only healthy inmates could be employed in DEST, and if any unhealthy inmates were employed then they were discharged or sent back to the camp and not used, is that right?
A No, I can't say it that way either. Of the inmates who were furnished to us, let's say five hundred, and if several of that number became sick, or for other reasons they were incapable of working, they were sent back to the camp so that they could get treatment there. Only after they had recovered then they could be used for work. That is what I meant.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is what you say.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Now, how many of them -- Do you have any idea of the percentage of the inmates that were assigned to you who were in poor physical health and had to be sent back?
A I can't give you any exact figure, but in any case the percentage was not high enough that it would have been conspicuous. In every plant it happens, and in the industry this is called the sickness rate, where we have the position that several persons can't come to work for several reasons and that is exactly what applied in the case of the inmates.
Q Well, Defendant, I don't know what percentage you would find shocking, and I am therefore required to ask you, can you give us any information on the percentage of inmates who were assigned to DEST who were turned down or rejected because they were ill, physically incapable of working?
A I can't give you any exact percentage, Mr. Prosecutor. In order to do that I would have to look at all the reports from the plants in order to compile the figure. It is impossible for me, now that three years have passed, to still recall the various reports. Furthermore, I have already stated that this varied according to the time period and according to the localities. We had several plants where there were no complaints whatsoever.
Q What were the plants you had no complaints from, and what were the plants you had complaints from?
AAbove all we received little or no complaints from those plants in whose direct proximity there would be a small labor camp, or some small accommodations, for example, Bersetedt, Oranienburg, Neurohlau, Reimannsfelde, Linz.
It was always the case that the small camp, in every respect, had better conditions than a big camp. Apparently the influence in a bigger camp was always more negative than it was in a small camp.
Q Let us hear about the complaints. All I get is relative statements from you that it was better one place than it was another, but that does not tell me what the condition actually was. You understand that, don't you? Now what complaints did you get about physical condition of inmates other than the typhoid epidemic?
A I didn't say anything about the physical condition, but these complaints in the course of the years referred to food or to clothing or to accommodations, and then to hygienic facilities, and whenever these conditions had been alleviated then we wouldn't hear anything further from the enterprise.
Q What complaints did you receive about those matters, from whom, what camp, what were the complaints?
A We didn't hear from the camps at all, but we heard from the plants. They would inform us on something whenever they had not met with any success where they made representations to the camp commander.
Q What did they make representations -
AAnd -
Q Just a minute, just a minute, what did they make representations to the camp commander about?
A The plant managers usually had the instructions that if something did not work out all right with the inmates in the camp then they had to contact the camp commander. If they could not reach any agreement, then they had the duty to report this matter to us.
Q All right, what did the plant manager observe, and what did he complain about to the camp commander? That is what I am trying to find out.
A With regard to the food on occasions. The food would be inadequate. Clothing also inadequate occasionally, and in the last year we had also trouble with the accommodations. Whenever the plant manager was unable to have the conditions alleviated then he would turn to us. We on our part would then try to reach a settlement from Berlin, and if we did not succeed in doing that then I would pass on the matter to Pohl. He then would see to it that these conditions were improved.
Q: What complaints did you get about food and clothing? Where were the plants located? What was the condition about which they were complaining?
A: It happened, for example, that the food did not arrive in time, or it happened that vegetables and potatoes spoiled. For this reason, for example, the amount of potatoes prescribed in the ration allowances could not be furnished to the inmates. In such cases, we, on our own initiative, would interfere frequently, and then we would procure this additional food. However, I must always say that these conditions were only temporary. This was not a permanent condition at all.
Q: How many such complaints did you receive, roughly, do you know?
A: In the course of the years we had a whole number of them. We would receive them from the various plants. Altogether, I must say that in the course of the last two years, the complaints diminished more and more. Only towards the end of the war, toward the end of 1944 and early 1945 we again received complaints from individual places.
Q: The incidents though, that wasn't the general picture at all?
A: Have I understood you correctly? I understood you to say that it was not the general picture.
Q: No, I said just the contrary. You said that these were just little temporary conditions that existed here and there, little incidents which you then had corrected.
A: Yes, that is the way I want to express it. I cannot describe that as being a permanent condition.
Q: So your testimony is generally speaking that the inmates were adequately fed, they were adequately clothed and they were adequately housed, is that correct?
A: In general, that was with consideration to the conditions caused by the war, that is correct.
Q: How do you square your testimony with that of Bickel? He testified that it was not an infrequent occurrence to have inmates get sick on the job and who were then put in this wire cage so they couldn't hide.
A: Mr. Prosecutor, this picture differs from what has remained in my memory. I can't say it in any different way neither from my reports could I gain the picture which the various witnesses have given us here.
Q: Including your own witness Bickel?
A: I believe that when a human being looks at these things who was an inmate before, he would look differently at things than an soutsider would regard them. It will always be difficult in this respect to determine the objective truth.
Q: Now, you testified before that Amtsgruppe C did no work for DEST. I will ask you to turn to Book 3, Document NO-1292, Exhibit 56. That is a letter from Kammler to Gluecks, dated 10 March 1942, concerning the employment of prisoners, prisoners of war, Jews, and so forth, to carry out construction work. Do you find that document?
A: Mr. Prosecutor, unfortunately the first two pages are missing from my document book.
Q: It will be around -- it is on page 51.
A: That must be in the English edition.
Q: Page 51 of the German, NO-1292.
A: I can't find it here.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, I have borrowed the document books from a colleague, and I gave them to Mumenthey, so that he would be able to take out the necessary documents from my presentation of evidence.
It may be actually that possibly some pages are missing from the book.
THE WITNESS: I've just found it.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q:NO-1292?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you receive a copy of this letter, or did you read it on or about the 10th of March 1942?
A: I can't recall that. I can't remember having received it.
Q: Will you turn to the list of construction projects attached to this letter from Kammler. They are numbered from 1 to 61. Find that?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you look at item 2, and tell us who controlled the Brick Works at Auschwitz?
A: There were no Brick Works at Auschwitz, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q: Well, Dr. Kammler writes that he is completing the Brick Works at the Grubin Branch of concentration camp Auschwitz. Do you know what company controlled that Brick Works?
A: Are you referring to Grubin?
Q: Yes.
A: As far as I can recall this plant belonged to a company with the defendant Dr. Bobermin was connected.
Q: Will you turn to item 29.
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't Dr. Kammler state there that he is completing the plant buildings at Allach?
A: Mr. Prosecutor, Allach is a locality near Dachau.
As far as I know some large armament industries were established there during the war. The DEST did not operate any enterprises there. The porcelain manufacturing company Allach was located at Dachau.
Q: Then you deny that this item #29 refers to the construction of a plant building having anything to do with the Allach porcelain company?
A: No, that is completely out of the question.
Q: Let's look at item 35, concerning Weimar Buchenwald. You find after the note that he is extending the crematorium, the phrase "Klinker Works Berlstedt."
A: Klinker Works Berlstedt, I can tell you about that with a good conscience that the Office Group C had no construction carried out with the Klinker Works at Berlstedt.
Q: What does this reference in the letter have -- what does it mean?
A: I can't tell you that either.
Q: Then your testimony is that this is a mistake, that in fact Kammler never did any construction work in connection with the Klinker Works at Berlstedt, is that correct?
A: I don't know that he should have constructed at Berlstedt.
Q: Your testimony is that you don't know that he did anything there?
A: Here this could only refer to the small camp which was located near the plant Berlstedt. However, this was not a construction matter of DEST.
Q: He actually says, "Klinker Works, Berlstedt." That is a mistake in your opinion?
A: Yes, it is a mistake in my opinion. Here probably he only refers to the locality.
Q: What relation did W-1 or DEST have with Amtsgruppe A of the WVHA?
A: The DEST had relations with the legal office A-III whenever some contracts were to be concluded with the German Reich.
Q: Did you have any contact with the personnel office in Amtsgruppe A?
A: With the personnel office we had to deal insofar as it concerns the members of our staff who had been conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q: What contacts did you have with B?
A: Actually, we had no contact at all with them. The Office Chief of B-II, Lechler, only helped me repeatedly in procuring clothing, and above all, working clothes, additionally for us. However, that was not party of his duties. He only did this in order to do me a favor.
Q: Did you ever -
A: After all, the Office of which he was in charge was an affair of the Reich, and his field of tasks did not extend to supplying us with clothing.
Q: Did you ever have any contact with Amtsgruppe B in connection with extra food about which you have made some mention?
A: No.
Q: What about Amtsgruppe D?
A: Here we dealt with the Office D-II with regard to all questions arising out of the allocation of inmates. We dealt with them whenever locally no agreement could be reached. In individual cases I also had discussions with the Chief of Office Group D. Above all in 1944 because at that time I stayed at Oranienburg, and whenever I reported to Pohl, Pohl would tell me to go and settle this matter with Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
This was done in order to save him a telephone call.
Q: What did these conversations concern? Is that simply the matter of the release of inmates about which you have talked so much, or was it something else?
A: No, it also dealt with, for examples, difficulties in the procurement of food, accommodations, and clothing.
Q: Just these little incidental matters which came up about food and clothing, is that right?
A: Well, whenever difficulties occurred.
Q: You said there was a quarry in Mauthausen which was not controlled by DEST, is that correct?
A In the area of Mauthausen there were several firms which had quarries, among them there was the municipality of Vienna, and a firm of Buschhacher. There were also some other firms there. However, I can't recall their names at the moment.
Q Did they all use inmates?
A I know from the plant manager that inmates were also used in these quarries. However, I can't give you any further details about that.
Q Didn't you testify that the concentration camp Mauthausen itself opened a quarry within the camp?
A I stated that the camp Flossenbuerg had its own quarry.
Q Did you know any of the officials in the Labor Assignment Office at Mauthausen?
A I haven't quite understood the question. (Question repeated) On one occasion, at St. Georgen, I had a discussion with the commander and a Labor Allocation Officer Schuetz -- or he had a similar name -participated in that conference.
Q Obersturmfuehrer Schuetz, is that right?
A I don't know his rank any more; he was an Obersturmfuehrer or a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q Did you know a man named Luetscher, L-u-e-t-s-c-h-e-r-?
A Could you repeat the name, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Luetscher.
A No, I can't recall that name at all.
Q What about Dettmann and Kraemer?
A Dettmann? No.
Q Kraemer?
A Kraemer? No, that name doesn't mean anything to me.
Q Did Amt W-1 ever have any correspondence with this Labor Assignment Office in Mauthausen?
AAs far as I can recall, whenever any correspondence took place this correspondence must have gone to the commandants' headquarters.
Just where the concentration camp headquarters would pass them on to, I don't know.
Q Did you know a certain Hans Grimm in connection with your quarry operation in Mauthausen?
A I understood you to say Klein.
Q Grimm, G-r-i-m-m.
A Yes, he was the plant manager in the Wienergraben.
Q He was subordinated to Walther, is that right?
A If that is the Grimm I am thinking of, yes.
Q Let me put Document NO-3104. to you, witness. Now, this is a rather long affidavit, defendant, and we can't read all of it. It is an affidavit by a man named Sanner who was committed to Mauthausen in 1941, and remained there until the end of the war; and he worked in the Labor Assignment Office in Mauthausen.
May I be informed of the next exhibit number?
SECRETARY GENERAL: Six hundred twenty one.
Q I will ask that that document, NO-3104 be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 621 for identification.
Paragraph 15 of this affidavit, defendant. The affiant gives his superiors, one of which you knew, namely, Obersturmfuehrer Schuetz in the Labor Assignment Office.
Paragraph 28 of the Affidavit. He tells us that Amt W-1 of the WVHA had correspondence with the Labor Assignment Office in connection with the DEST quarries in Mauthausen.
In paragraph 39 he tells you about Hans Grimm. Will you direct your attention to paragraph 33 of the affidavit?
A 33?
Q Yes. Do you know anything about the incident of the murder of these 36 prisoners of war in the DEST quarry at Mauthausen in 1944?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I can tell you to the best of my belief and conscience that I never heard anything about this.
Q Will you note that in paragraphs 30 and 31 that the affiant states that the penal company worked in the DEST quarries, and that that cases of death among them varied between 20 and 30 during the years '43 and '44?
THE PRESIDENT: Twenty and thirty per day?
MR. MC HANEY: Twenty to thirty cases daily during the years 1943 and 1944.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Do you know anything about that, witness?
A What I heard from Mauthausen, about a transportation convoy I have already testified about in my direct examination. Of these two things which I mentioned here in paragraph 31 and 33 I know nothing.
I just can't understand it.
Q Will you turn to paragraphs 37 and 38? Did you know anything about the employment of 200 to 300 Russian prisoners of war in the DEST quarry in the winter of 1941-42?
A No, later on I heard that prisoners of war were to be trailed in certain work. However, I don't know anything about the incident which has been mentioned here.
Q Well, as a matter of fact, wouldn't you know if prisoners of war were employed in the DEST quarries?
A I certainly should have found out about that, in some way.
Q And you know nothing of course about the twenty to thirty dead who were brought back doily from among these prisoners of war?
A If something like that had happened, then certainly the plant manager would have notified me about that in some form or other.
Q Will you look at paragraph 41?
A Yes.
Q Do you know anything about the employment of these Dutch Jews in '41 and '43 in the DEST quarries?
A I have already stated in my direct examination that I don't know anything about this, and I can't understand this matter at all.
Q You did know something about the transport of Dutch Jews in 1944, though, didn't you?
A 1944? No.
Q Well, we will come to that in a moment, but the Herzogenbusch Diamond letter which you wrote and signed very clearly states that in 1944 the Reichsfuehrer-SS ordered the deportation of Jews from Holland.
Will you turn to paragraph 42 and 43? Do you know anything about the employment of Russian PW's in the DEST quarries in Mauthausen in the fall of 1942 and in '43?
A. I heard about the fact that prisoners of war were to be used; however, to what extent this was actually done, I don't know.
Q Well, you can't exclude the possibility that Russian prisoners of war were used in the DEST quarries then, can you defendant?
A. It was intended that Russain prisoners of war were to be trained as stone masons.
Q. That was part of the training program to get specialists who were going to rebuild the Reich after the war, is that right, as free laborers? That is, Russian prisoners of war.
A. Yes, they were to be released eventually.
Q. Now what sort of offices did Amt W-I maintain in the concentration camps?
A. In the concentration camps, Mr. Prosecutor, there was no office at all. The administration office of the DEST was located at St. Georgen.
Q. I am speaking of the camps generally now. In Mauthausen alone, you remember in the letter to Koegel referring to your visit to Flossenbuerg, which I put to you about an hour ago, you made reference to the subsidiary office of W-I in Flossenbuerg.
A. THat was not within the camp area either.
Q. That was just the plant?
A. Yes, it was within the plant.
Q. And you referred to that office with the fictional title "Subsidiary Office, W-I" is that right?
A. This title at that time was chosen exactly as the designation was shown for the offices. With that we referred to the plant management.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 August 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal II in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 7 August, 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom please take your seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
KARL MUMMENTHEY - Resumed
CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q May it please the Tribunal, defendant, did the plant managers live in the concentration camps?
A No.
Q Your testimony is that none of the plant managers lived within the concentration camps?
A I can't recall any of them ever lived in concentration camps. As far as I can recall in all the plants they had special buildings where the plant managers were living.
Q Is it not true that the plant managers had to make frequent trips within the concentration camp itself, as for example, to see the labor assignment officer?
A I only know of the plant managers that they had conferences with the commanding officers in the commandant's headquarters where the other agencies were located. I don't know any more.
Q Do you know whether any of the plant managers made an inspection of the concentration camp, for example, inspected the billets of the inmates, the hygiene facilities, the food, things of that nature?
A I have already stated before that in the small labor camps which were directly located near the camp, for example, Berstaedt, Oranienburg, Reimannsfelde, and Neurohlau, the plant managers, as well as myself, looked at the accommodations on various occasions, for example, the mess hall and the preparation of the food and so on.