THE PRESIDENT: Was Flossenbuerg a town?
WITNESS: Flossenbuerg is a village near Weiden in the Upper Palatinate.
THE PRESIDENT: And in Flossenbuerg there were houses and stores and factories and a concentration camp?
WITNESS: Yes, outside of the locality -
THE PRESIDENT: Outside of what?
WITNESS: Out side of the little village.
THE PRESIDENT: How large a town was Flossenbuerg?
WITNESS: I assume that the population was 1,000 to 1,500.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for Volk and Bobermin): Your Honor, may I draw the Tribunals attention to Exhibit Volk No. 1? We have a drawing of Flossenbuerg in there. It can be seen from there where the village of Flossenbuerg is and where the camp is located, namely the outside of Flossenbuerg. That can be seen from the drawing which was introduced as Document Volk No. 1.
THE PRESIDENT: We remember that diagram.
DR. GAWLIK: May I say a few more things as far as the last few words which you said? We do have a large number of translation errors, very important mistakes. That, of course, makes our activity more difficult. We have the German document books in front of us. According to the German document books, it is correct. And then we have to find out that the Tribunal has something entirely different.
Under those circumstances I would like to say that it is necessary that we check up on all documents and that we have to check up on all the documents that we have, and compare them with the English documents. I would have to speak to my colleagues in order to find out if it would not be necessary to call a recess in order to check up on the translations.
We found out a little mistake -- but this is not the only mistake. We are fighting a struggle against the translations because the Tribunal sees something entirely different from what we get.
THE PRESIDENT: We appreciate your difficulty.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Defendant, if you wanted to make a trip to the village of Flossenbuerg, would it be necessary to get the permission of the camp commander Koegel?
A. No.
Q. So then the question becomes one of whether you intended to visit the plant of DEST at Flossenbuerg or the camp itself. That is the only question in connection with this document, isn't it, witness?
A. The reason why this document originated can be found somewhere else. It dealt simply with the allocation of a vehicle because the vehicle of the enterprise was not in a position to be driven. That is the entire idea of that letter.
Q. Well, is your testimony that you and the defendant Volk went to Flossenbuerg to see the DEST plant there, is that the idea?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did not go into the concentration camp itself?
A. No.
Q. You did not see camp commander Koegel while you were there in the camp?
A. I believe I saw him in Neurohlau on the following day, but I couldn't tell you for certain.
Q. Now, defendant -
A. According to my recollection, he came to Neurohlau on the following day.
Q. Defendant, what did you think was the basic purpose for having a concentration camp in Germany?
A. I thought that it was a good place to keep the criminals, anti-social elements, and inmates, for security reasons.
Q. Didn't you know that the very purpose of having concentration camps was the incarceration of so-called political opponents of the Nazi State?
A. To place people in custody for security reasons, who were opposed to the government. In any case, that is the way it was put to us at the time.
Q. And, as a lawyer, you don't know of any German law which provided for the incarceration of criminals who were tired by court, and then sentenced to a term of years in a concentration camp? You never heard of such a thing as that, did you, witness?
A. The legal prerequisites for the commitment to protective custody are contained in the regulations as issued by the Reich President at the time, Hindenburg, dated February, 1933. This decree is based on the Weimar constitution.
Q. You are talking about a law which permitted the commitment of criminals who had served out their sentence in a prison for further security, for further detention. Isn't that what you are talking about, witness?
A. That, also, yes. That was called the so-called Police Preventive Custody.
Q. And have you ever heard and can you give us the citation of a German law which provided for the trial of a criminal in a court, and for that court to sentence him to a term of years in a concentration camp?
A. I did notice, and I did tell you, the basic regulations which refer to such commitments. It was police trial suit, as it was called.
Q. Well, I would be interested in having those citations, if you could get them for us. Don't you know that there -
A. There is a small booklet published which is called "The legal aspects of Protective Custody." All the legal regulations are contained in there.
Q. Don't you know that the great bulk of inmates in a concentration camp were placed there under protective custody orders issued by the Gestapo without any trial of any kind?
A. According to my opinion, this is a police trail which was carried out there, I think.
Q. Well, now, you are a lawyer; weren't they committed under a protective custody order without any trial?
A. You have to differentiate here between a judicial proceeding and a police proceeding, and I believe that the latter is the one that applies. Namely, the police penal proceeding. After all, we have to point out that there is something similar today. I read today the regulations issued by General Clay. There is a definite difference made between a normal trial and arrest trial, or a trial for security reasons. Therefore, apparently, there is still something similar to it today in existence.
Q. Well, we will pass that.
When did you first learn that political inmates were committed to concentration camps?
A. In the course of the years, after 1933, without dealing with it in any way.
Q. When did you first learn that so-called "racial inferiors" and Jews were being committed to concentration camps?
A. I couldn't give you an exact date today. In the course of years, after 1939, I heard that Jews also were committed into con centration camps.
Q. Didn't you know that a large number of Jews were committed to camps after the action in November, 1938?
A. I heard about it that a few inmates were committed, but I did not know what their total number was.
Q: Did you ever hear of a court proceeding in which a man sentenced to death with the provision that he be executed in a concentration camp?
A: No, that is not known to me.
Q: The German law provides for executions in prison, doesn't it, Defendant?
A: According to my recollection, yes.
Q: Do you know anything about the ration of criminal inmates as compared to political inmates in concentration camps?
A: I can only tell you what I saw in our own enterprises. The relationship there was that after 1939 the criminal elements could be seen from the green triangle and they were far exceeding the others in number.
Q: You made a point of observing that you had a greater percentage of criminal prisoners working in your industries than political prisoners, is that right?
A: Yes, definitely so.
Q: You stated that the position of Amtschef was fictional and that this was some invention by Pohl as a result of his prior work in the Navy. Have you ever seen an organizational chart of other Hauptamts of the SS?
A: I know the organizational chart which was submitted here -- of the WVHA.
Q: But did you observe that substantially all 12 SS Main Offices and the Hauptamts, they are divided into Amt Groups and those Amt Groups are subdivided into Amts under whom there were offices and departments and offices having a chief. Did you observe that?
A: The organizational charts of the other offices I did hot see.
Q: So you did not know that the whole of the SS Supreme Command was organized in substantially the same way as the WVHA and substantially the same as your own Amt W-1; you didn't know that?
A: I heard that in our other main offices also the term "office" was used -- "Amt."
Q: You testified that there were some 14 enterprises under DEST at the end of the war, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that include Bohemia and Allach?
A: No, because it was not part of the DEST.
Q: But it was subordinated under you as Chief of Amt. W-1?
A: The two enterprises only had been incorporated into the DEST together in one single group of firms.
Q: That at least made your position as Chief of Office W-1 not quite so fictional since Allach and Bohemia were not part of DEST and you did direct the enterprises of Allach and Bohemia, didn't you defendant?
A: I was not in charge of Bohemia and Allach because Bohemia was an Aktiengesellschaft, and A.G. and had two members of the Vorstand and Allach was a G.m.b.H. and two business managers were managing it.
Q: Can you tell us in a sentence exactly what you did do with respect to Bohemia and Allach?
A: I could have conferences with the management of these two enterprises. I could make suggestions and give instructions. I could not give orders against their own will.
Q: You could not give orders against their own will? Well, what was the total number of inmates, the largest number of inmates, employed in these 14 enterprises of DEST and also Bohemia and Allach?
Now can you give us a total figure? I want to know the highest number of inmates during the war that was employed in those industries.
A: I shall try to give you that as accurately as I can, Mr. Prosecutor. According to my recollection the total figure was approximately between fourteen and fifteen thousand.
Q: Fourteen and fifteen thousand? And that's the highest number?
A: Yes, according to the compilation which I made, yes.
Q: What is your compilation based on?
A: My recollection.
Q: And that includes all the people working in the munitions, the armament works in Mauthausen, Gusen, and that is the whole operation?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Now, how did W-1 control and check on the operation of these plants? One way was that you made trips to the plants frequently, isn't that right?
A: Yes, as a business manager of the DEST, yes.
Q: Mr. Prosecutor, you are nor referring to the people in the works, in the plants, or in Berlin?
Q: Well, did you have meetings of plant managers, all plant managers?
A: We used to do it in the following manner. All works managers as of 1943 met approximately every six months, and every three months the works managers of either the brick works or the granite works met. However, towards the end of 1944 due to the difficulties in transportation this could no longer be carried out. From then on it had to be discontinued.
Q: And then they had to visit -- Schondorff and Schwarz -- in addition to your own to the plants?
A: Yes.
Q: And how often did you get reports from each individual plant?
A: The enterprises as an average would send in a report once monthly.
Q: And your testimony is that these reports contained no data concerning the rate of turnover of the inmates -of sickness -- of deaths?
A: I can't remember having seen anything about death rate figures and -- yes, sick inmates were mentioned, but not death rates. Particularly then when epidemics had broken out in the camps, as was the case in 1942 and 1943 on repeated occasions, whereupon a quarantine was fixed on the plants and the plants had to cease working.
Q: Then you did receive in these reports data concerning the rate of illness among the inmates, is that right?
A: In those reports there might be figures that so and so many inmates were sick. Yes, that is quite possible.
Q: But they thought it was not important to mention the death rate, is that right?
A: That is not what I meant by that.
Q: And they didn't tell you anything about how fast your labor -
A: If this should have occurred in the plants the works manager would have reported it to us in Berlin.
Q: Now, wait just a minute. You mean if you had a death in the plant -- somebody died -- and that would have been reported to you, is that right?
A: I can't remember that.
Q: Didn't you just testify that if anyone had died in the plant, any of the inmates, that it would have been reported to you?
A: I said that there were reports on the sick, or the number of sick was contained in the reports.
Q: And these reports included nothing about the turnover in your labor pool?
A: No, we had the figures of the inmates working in the plant. They were sub-divided according to skilled workers, the auxiliary workers, civilian workers, employees, and apprentices.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Defendant, doesn't it make a difference in the efficient operation of a plant as to whether your labor force is stable?
A. Yes.
Q. Doesn't it seriously effect the operation of a business to have the labor force turn over rapidly?
A. Naturally.
Q. Did you ever make inquiries as to the rate of turn over of the inmate labor used in the DEST plants?
A. Apparently we had no reason to do so. After all I didn't get any figures to the extent and actually there was no indication that this rapid turn over which you seem to assume took place.
Q. Your answer is that you never made any inquiry, is that correct?
A. I did not see anything spectacular which caused me to follow up these things. After all it would have to express itself in some form.
Q. So your answer is no?
A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I gave a statement about that.
Q. You never discussed such matters in your meetings with plant managers?
A. The working capability of the inmates was discussed but the plant managers never stated that in plants of DEST inmates had died.
Q. You never discussed a high incidence of illness in your inmates with the plant managers?
A. I have already stated that in connection with the epidemics which occurred several times in the camp these things were discussed.
Q. What were these epidemics, when did they occur, how many people were effected, what years?
A. As far as I can recall this happened in the years 1941 and 42. Here we had several different types of epidemics. The plants which were effected by that in my opinion were Oranienburg, Nauengamme, Gross-Rosen, Flossenbuerg, and St-Georgen.
Q That is Mauthausen?
A Yes. We called it St. Georgen because the administration was located there. The camp was called Mauthausen.
Q All right, that is all. You had epidemics in '41 and '42. What kind of epidemics were they?
AAs far as I can recall we had typhus.
Q Did you say typhus?
A Typhoid.
Q That is typhoid.
A I know that, because as I have stated before this epidemic also affected the SS, and also our civilian employees were affected. I know that several people of our employees suffered from that disease at the time.
Q Well, was this typhoid epidemic the only one you know anything about '41 and '42?
AAs far as I can recall it was a case of typhoid everywhere.
Q That was the only epidemic you know anything about?
A Yes, I can recall that.
Q How many inmates were affected by that epidemic?
A I can't give you the exact figure any more, but I think it was quite a large number.
Q And other than these epidemics of typhoid in '41 and '42 you didn't have any discussions in your meetings with plant managers nor did you receive any reports on the incidence of illness of the inmates of the DEST enterprises, is that right?
A I don't understand the translation.
Q I say, other than this epidemic, typhoid epidemic, in '41 and '42, you had no discussions of the incidence of illness with your plant managers in your meetings, nor did you receive any reports on the incidence of illness among the inmates working for DEST?
A I don't understand a word, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q Now, other than the typhoid epidemic which you mentioned in 1941 and 1942, you know of no other epidemic which occurred among inmates working for DEST?
A Mr. Prosecutor, these epidemics occurred in the camps, and we found out about it through the fact, because the inmates did not come to work for plants, and the plants had to lie idle for that reason.
Q Those are the only epidemics you know anything about?
A These are the ones I can recall.
Q You didn't discuss the incidence of illness among inmates working for DEST in any of your meetings with plant managers, nor did you receive any reports on the incidence of illness?
AAbout these cases of epidemics we did receive reports.
Q I say, other than those.
A I can't recall having heard anything further about it.
Q And in your meetings with plant managers you made no inquiries about the general physical condition of the inmates working in DEST enterprises, is that right?
AAbout the physical condition of the inmates, this matter was discussed several times in connection with the food problem.
Q And what was the report that you received, was their physical condition adequate or inadequate?
A This was different at the various time periods and the various localities. We were informed through reports and discussions that amongst the inmates there were also those people whose physical condition was not adequate for the work as we wanted and needed it. For that reason I always urged that all these inmates should not be used for work in the enterprises.
Q When did this occur, you got a report that the physical condition of some of the inmates working for DEST was not good? What camp was this, when did it occur, what are the facts? Your statement is extremely general.
A From the last years, '43 and '44, I can hardly remember that I heard any important statements by the plant managers, during that period, from the year 1941 and 1942, apparently in connection with the epidemics, these matters were discussed.
Q Well, is it your testimony then that the general physical condition of inmates working for DEST was poor in the years 1941 and 1942 and was all right in 1943 and 1944, is that your testimony?
A Mr. Prosecutor, one can't say that the physical condition was poor. Amongst the inmates there were some who looked very good. I would like to say they were well rounded. However, I can't say on the basis of my own observations, and on the basis of statements by the plant managers, that undernourished inmates who were incapable of performing any physical work had been employed in the enterprise. I wouldn't have tolerated it, neither would the plant managers.
Q Your testimony then in that you employed only physically healthy inmates, isn't that right? What is your position?
A What I want to say is that we only used those workers who were physically satisfactory. If the prerequisites were not fulfilled, then the plant manager would make a statement that a certain inmate would have to be in the necessary physical condition to perform his work.
Q In other words, if through some fluke you got an inmate who was in poor health, you told the camp management and said, "We can't use this man," and you sent him back to the camp, and that was that.
A I haven't heard the question.
THE PRESIDENT: "Fluke" is a little bit difficult to translate.
MR. MC HANEY: What is that?
THE PRESIDENT: "Fluke" is a little bit difficult.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Your testimony then is that you had a rule that only healthy inmates could be employed in DEST, and if any unhealthy inmates were employed then they were discharged or sent back to the camp and not used, is that right?
A No, I can't say it that way either. Of the inmates who were furnished to us, let's say five hundred, and if several of that number became sick, or for other reasons they were incapable of working, they were sent back to the camp so that they could get treatment there. Only after they had recovered then they could be used for work. That is what I meant.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is what you say.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Now, how many of them -- Do you have any idea of the percentage of the inmates that were assigned to you who were in poor physical health and had to be sent back?
A I can't give you any exact figure, but in any case the percentage was not high enough that it would have been conspicuous. In every plant it happens, and in the industry this is called the sickness rate, where we have the position that several persons can't come to work for several reasons and that is exactly what applied in the case of the inmates.
Q Well, Defendant, I don't know what percentage you would find shocking, and I am therefore required to ask you, can you give us any information on the percentage of inmates who were assigned to DEST who were turned down or rejected because they were ill, physically incapable of working?
A I can't give you any exact percentage, Mr. Prosecutor. In order to do that I would have to look at all the reports from the plants in order to compile the figure. It is impossible for me, now that three years have passed, to still recall the various reports. Furthermore, I have already stated that this varied according to the time period and according to the localities. We had several plants where there were no complaints whatsoever.
Q What were the plants you had no complaints from, and what were the plants you had complaints from?
AAbove all we received little or no complaints from those plants in whose direct proximity there would be a small labor camp, or some small accommodations, for example, Bersetedt, Oranienburg, Neurohlau, Reimannsfelde, Linz.
It was always the case that the small camp, in every respect, had better conditions than a big camp. Apparently the influence in a bigger camp was always more negative than it was in a small camp.
Q Let us hear about the complaints. All I get is relative statements from you that it was better one place than it was another, but that does not tell me what the condition actually was. You understand that, don't you? Now what complaints did you get about physical condition of inmates other than the typhoid epidemic?
A I didn't say anything about the physical condition, but these complaints in the course of the years referred to food or to clothing or to accommodations, and then to hygienic facilities, and whenever these conditions had been alleviated then we wouldn't hear anything further from the enterprise.
Q What complaints did you receive about those matters, from whom, what camp, what were the complaints?
A We didn't hear from the camps at all, but we heard from the plants. They would inform us on something whenever they had not met with any success where they made representations to the camp commander.
Q What did they make representations -
AAnd -
Q Just a minute, just a minute, what did they make representations to the camp commander about?
A The plant managers usually had the instructions that if something did not work out all right with the inmates in the camp then they had to contact the camp commander. If they could not reach any agreement, then they had the duty to report this matter to us.
Q All right, what did the plant manager observe, and what did he complain about to the camp commander? That is what I am trying to find out.
A With regard to the food on occasions. The food would be inadequate. Clothing also inadequate occasionally, and in the last year we had also trouble with the accommodations. Whenever the plant manager was unable to have the conditions alleviated then he would turn to us. We on our part would then try to reach a settlement from Berlin, and if we did not succeed in doing that then I would pass on the matter to Pohl. He then would see to it that these conditions were improved.
Q: What complaints did you get about food and clothing? Where were the plants located? What was the condition about which they were complaining?
A: It happened, for example, that the food did not arrive in time, or it happened that vegetables and potatoes spoiled. For this reason, for example, the amount of potatoes prescribed in the ration allowances could not be furnished to the inmates. In such cases, we, on our own initiative, would interfere frequently, and then we would procure this additional food. However, I must always say that these conditions were only temporary. This was not a permanent condition at all.
Q: How many such complaints did you receive, roughly, do you know?
A: In the course of the years we had a whole number of them. We would receive them from the various plants. Altogether, I must say that in the course of the last two years, the complaints diminished more and more. Only towards the end of the war, toward the end of 1944 and early 1945 we again received complaints from individual places.
Q: The incidents though, that wasn't the general picture at all?
A: Have I understood you correctly? I understood you to say that it was not the general picture.
Q: No, I said just the contrary. You said that these were just little temporary conditions that existed here and there, little incidents which you then had corrected.
A: Yes, that is the way I want to express it. I cannot describe that as being a permanent condition.
Q: So your testimony is generally speaking that the inmates were adequately fed, they were adequately clothed and they were adequately housed, is that correct?
A: In general, that was with consideration to the conditions caused by the war, that is correct.
Q: How do you square your testimony with that of Bickel? He testified that it was not an infrequent occurrence to have inmates get sick on the job and who were then put in this wire cage so they couldn't hide.
A: Mr. Prosecutor, this picture differs from what has remained in my memory. I can't say it in any different way neither from my reports could I gain the picture which the various witnesses have given us here.
Q: Including your own witness Bickel?
A: I believe that when a human being looks at these things who was an inmate before, he would look differently at things than an soutsider would regard them. It will always be difficult in this respect to determine the objective truth.
Q: Now, you testified before that Amtsgruppe C did no work for DEST. I will ask you to turn to Book 3, Document NO-1292, Exhibit 56. That is a letter from Kammler to Gluecks, dated 10 March 1942, concerning the employment of prisoners, prisoners of war, Jews, and so forth, to carry out construction work. Do you find that document?
A: Mr. Prosecutor, unfortunately the first two pages are missing from my document book.
Q: It will be around -- it is on page 51.
A: That must be in the English edition.
Q: Page 51 of the German, NO-1292.
A: I can't find it here.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, I have borrowed the document books from a colleague, and I gave them to Mumenthey, so that he would be able to take out the necessary documents from my presentation of evidence.