A. The tasks were entirely transferred to the plants from a technical point of view, and Herr Schondorf became the man in charge of everything that was technical. As far as technical fundamental questions were concerned he interpolated.
Q. So your testimony is in support of Schwartz' own testimony that he never served as a technical man for the granite works, is that right?
A. No, you couldn't say that.
Q. Then you would say he was a technical man for the granite works, at least in some part?
A. No, no, I mean you can't call him a technician.
Q. Now, you say your activity in 1939, '40 and '41 was concerned with contracts, with construction firms, and legal questions?
A. Yes.
Q. Were these contracts with construction firms in connection with the establishment of new plants in the concentration camps?
A. The plants, Mr. Prosecutor, were not within the camp, but they were outside of the camp. The contracts which we were dealing about at the time, which were to be concluded, had already been signed in 1938, at a time, in other words, when I was not a business manager.
Q. But those construction contracts with which you dealt were concerned with the erection of new plants, isn't that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Those construction firms used inmates in building these plants, didn't they?
A. Yes, they did so.
Q. Did Amtsgruppe C or its forerunner, the Budget and Building Office, have anything to do with the construction of works for DEST?
A. I understood you to say Finance Department, Mr. Prosecutor. That isn't correct, is it?
Q. Amtsgruppe C and its forerunner, the Budget and Building Office, did they have anything to do with the construction of plants for DEST?
A. No.
Q. Nothing whatever?
A. No, they did not establish a single plant.
Q. Did they ever do any work for you?
A. Amtsgruppe C was to carry out some sort of a construction worn in Linz. Otherwise, I really can't remember or I can't think of where Amtsgruppe C was supposed to work.
Q. Well, your testimony then is as far as you can remember Amtsgruppe C never did anything for the DEST?
A. According to my recollection, no.
Q. Now, when you took the position with Salpeter in 1938, did you got to any of the concentration camps before accepting that position, that job?
A. No.
Q. When did you first go to a concentration camp?
A. According to my recollection it was in 1939 that I went to a concentration camp together with Dr. Salpeter. That was within the commando building of Sachsenhausen.
Q. The first time you were in a concentration camp was in 1939 in Sachsenhausen?
A. Yes, that is as far as I can recall.
Q. You knew when you took this job with DEST that it was operated by inmate labor, didn't you?
A. I knew at the time in 1939, in the spring of 1939 when I joined the DEST that the inmates were being used as labor, yes.
Q. Weren't you working with the DEST in 1938, with Salpeter?
A. I remember that in 1938, in the winter of 1938, I dealt with a few legal questions.
Q. How many times did you visit concentration camps, and I know distinguish between these visits to the plants the visits to the concentration camps themselves. How many times have you been in a concentration camp?
A. You mean the headquarters building, Mr. Prosecutor. If I had to speak to the commander, I could only do that in his office in the headquarters building. That was the reason why I had to go and see him, and that occurred on several occasions in the course of the years.
How many times were you in a concentration camp? Let's just take the front gate, how many times did you walk through the front gate?
A. I simply couldn't tell you that today, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. About 50 times?
A. I really can't remember a figure.
Q. Well, would you say that was too high or too low?
A. I simply can't give you any figure, Mr. Prosecutor, I simply can't.
Q. You can't, or you refuse to?
A. After all I am sitting here at the witnesses' dock, and it is not a question of wanting to or being able to tell you. After so many years, I can't tell you how many visits I made to the individual plans and how many times I have seen the commander. It would simply be impossible.
Q. Now, defendant, you must have had some sort of regular inspection trips to your plants. How often did you visit the plants now. You said you had 14 by the end of the war. How many times did you visit those plants during a years time?
A. Well, it depended entirely on the importance of my call, and it depended on the importance of the plant also. As an average, in the more important plants, it was three or four, and possibly five times a year, and in the smaller enterprises, or plants, it was once or twice a year at the utmost.
Q. But you made it a point to visit every plant of the DEST industry, didn't you, defendant?
A. Yes; that was my duty.
Q. And isn't it true that you customarily went inside the camp proper when you made visits to these plants?
A. If it was necessary to talk to the commander, I would go to his office.
Q. All right, that gets us rather close to a figure, doesn't it. defendant? You said you visited at least the larger plants as frequently as five times a year. You just take a rough average of ten plants, that's 50 trips a year. So, my figure of 50 times in the concentration camps was undoubtedly too low, wasn't it, defendant?
A. I did not go to the commander every time I went to visit a plant. That was not necessary every time I went to visit a plant.
Q. You just testified that you usually did though, isn't that true?
A. I stated that if it should become necessary I went to see the commander.
Q. And that was usually necessary, wasn't it?
A. Frequently.
Q. Now, defendant, didn't you also frequently make a tour of the camp when you went there, look at the barracks, see the inmates around, inspect the work shops inside of the camp itself, talk to the works managers, the labor allocators; weren't you generally familiar with these concentration camps?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the plants were not within the concentration camps, but rather outside the concentration camps. I took a good look at our plants.
Q. I am talking about the concentration camp proper, and I am telling you, or suggesting to you that you inspected these camps. You Knew what was going on in the camps?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever inspect the barracks in a concentration camp?
A. In smaller camps I did visit the billets in Berstedt, or Reimannsfelde, or Oranienburg. I now talk about the barracks which were at the immediately proximity of our plant. I did not go into the camp proper, namely, the protective custody camp.
Q. It is awful difficult to find out just exactly what you did. Did you ever inspect any concentration camp? Generally, did you go on a conducted tour through any concentration camp?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Now, you remember this document we put in, in Book Number 3, in which you asked the camp commander at Natzweiler, I believe, to arrange for a visit of the defendant Volk--- Flossenbuerg it was. That is document No-1030, prosecution's Exhibit 62. It is on page 72 of Book 3. You state in that letter to the camp commander Koegel that Volk has not as yet been at Flossenbuerg, and he wanted to see the camp.
A. There is nothing about that in the letter, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Witness, I will read you the sentence. "As SS-Huptstrumfuehrer Volk has not as yet been at Flossenbuerg and wants to see the camp, we shall arrive at Weiden on Monday, July 5, at 1525 hours."
A. Mr. Prosecutor, there is nothing contained about the camp of Flossenbuerg in that letter.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, I would appreciate it if the defendant would be given an opportunity to take a look at this document. After all he can't see it.
MR. MC HANEY: If Defense counsel will pass him up his book, he will have an opportunity to look at it. I assumed that the defendant was familiar with this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have this document?
A. No, I don't have it, Your Honor.
BY MR. MC HANDY:
Q. It is on page 74, defendant.
A. I've got it. May I read what is contained on here, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. Yes.
A. "As SS-Huptsturmfuehrer Volk does not know Flossenbuerg as yet and would like to know Flossenbuerg, etc. etc." Nothing is contained in there that he wants to see the camp and that he wants to visit it. This letter only refers to the visit of the plant of Flossenbuerg of DEST.
Q. Well, now, defendant, that is a conclusion that it refers to the plant. It says that Dr. Volk hasn't seen the camp at Flossenbuerg and he wants to see it and that you have arranged with Liebehenschel for the permit to get in, isn't that what it says?
A. That permission from Liebehenschel refers to something entirely different.
Q. It doesn't say the plant, it says the camp, isn't that right?
A. It is stated here, "Obersturmbannfuehrer Liebehenschel will give you permission by teletype to travel." That refers to the trip between Flossenbuerg and Karlsbad, but nothing is contained in there about a permission to enter the camp. The travel orders that had been issued was necessary at the time in connection with the use of motor vehicles.
Q. Well, defendant, we will leave it to the Tribunal as to the true meaning of the document, but your testimony is that in any event that you and Volk did not go to Flossenbuerg and did not inspect the camp, the concentration camp, is that right?
A. Yes quite so.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, just to assist us in finding out what the document means, the last sentence would seen to indicate that the witness' interpretation is logical. He says that Liebehenschel will have the permit for the trip teleprinted to you. Then it says the fuel will be supplied by Flossenbuerg. It seems to indicate that it means -- it refers to a trip from Flossenbuerg to somewhere else.
MR. MC HANEY: That is quite true, Your Honor. There is not question about that. They were planning to go to a meeting in connection with the firm Bohemia which was not located at Flossenbuerg but was located at Karlsbad.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Karlsbad.
MR. MC HANEY: The defendant Volk, having not seen Flossenbuerg before and he wanted to see Flossenbuerg, and it states in the first paragraph of the letter -
THE PRESIDENT: But the permit referred to is not the permit to see Flossenbuerg, is it? It is the permit to travel from Flossenbuerg to Karlsbad.
MR. MC HANEY: Well, that may be, Your Honor, but that is not the point I was trying to make with him. The question is whether or not they saw the camp or saw the plant.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right. All right. There is no doubt that the word camp is properly translated?
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Defendant, will you find the German document and read off the word which is used for camp? Page 74, first paragraph, second sentence.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I can't find a single word equivalent in meaning to the word "camp", or "lager", which is the German word for "camp". There is no such word as "lager" or "camp". I believe that there must be some word used in connection with "camp".
THE PRESIDENT: The word "lager" is not in there.
MR. MC HANEY: I am sure I don't know. The only thing I have before me is the translation. I suggest he read the German.
THE PRESIDENT: (To witness) Read the German that I have drawn the line under, that sentence.
Witness: "As SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, Dr. Volk does not know Flossenbuerg as yet and would like to know Flossenbuerg or see it, we shall, on Monday, etc, etc." Shall I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: No, that is enough. After the word "Flossenbuerg ....he does not know Flossenbuerg..." then it says -- Read it after that.
Witness: "And he would like to see Flossenbuerg". etc. etc.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the German word for camp in there? Is it "lager?" What is the German word for camp, Is that in there?
WITNESS: No, it isn't, Your Honor.
MR. MC HANEY: Well, I think the translation, if the Tribunal please, would be substantially correct if you substitute the word "Flossenbuerg" for camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, yes; you are putting a good deal of faith on the fact that he went to see the camp -- and not the plants.
MR. MC HANEY: The word. "Flossenbuerg" is used twice in the sentence, so I say that the substitution should be the word "Flossenbuerg" for the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but that robs it of the implication that you give it.
MR. MC HANEY: That may be, Your Honor. I am not going to argue that point now, but I say to correct the translation that is what is necessary apparently.
THE PRESIDENT: That certainly is necessary, and I wonder how many others there are in these document books.
THE PRESIDENT: Was Flossenbuerg a town?
WITNESS: Flossenbuerg is a village near Weiden in the Upper Palatinate.
THE PRESIDENT: And in Flossenbuerg there were houses and stores and factories and a concentration camp?
WITNESS: Yes, outside of the locality -
THE PRESIDENT: Outside of what?
WITNESS: Out side of the little village.
THE PRESIDENT: How large a town was Flossenbuerg?
WITNESS: I assume that the population was 1,000 to 1,500.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for Volk and Bobermin): Your Honor, may I draw the Tribunals attention to Exhibit Volk No. 1? We have a drawing of Flossenbuerg in there. It can be seen from there where the village of Flossenbuerg is and where the camp is located, namely the outside of Flossenbuerg. That can be seen from the drawing which was introduced as Document Volk No. 1.
THE PRESIDENT: We remember that diagram.
DR. GAWLIK: May I say a few more things as far as the last few words which you said? We do have a large number of translation errors, very important mistakes. That, of course, makes our activity more difficult. We have the German document books in front of us. According to the German document books, it is correct. And then we have to find out that the Tribunal has something entirely different.
Under those circumstances I would like to say that it is necessary that we check up on all documents and that we have to check up on all the documents that we have, and compare them with the English documents. I would have to speak to my colleagues in order to find out if it would not be necessary to call a recess in order to check up on the translations.
We found out a little mistake -- but this is not the only mistake. We are fighting a struggle against the translations because the Tribunal sees something entirely different from what we get.
THE PRESIDENT: We appreciate your difficulty.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Defendant, if you wanted to make a trip to the village of Flossenbuerg, would it be necessary to get the permission of the camp commander Koegel?
A. No.
Q. So then the question becomes one of whether you intended to visit the plant of DEST at Flossenbuerg or the camp itself. That is the only question in connection with this document, isn't it, witness?
A. The reason why this document originated can be found somewhere else. It dealt simply with the allocation of a vehicle because the vehicle of the enterprise was not in a position to be driven. That is the entire idea of that letter.
Q. Well, is your testimony that you and the defendant Volk went to Flossenbuerg to see the DEST plant there, is that the idea?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did not go into the concentration camp itself?
A. No.
Q. You did not see camp commander Koegel while you were there in the camp?
A. I believe I saw him in Neurohlau on the following day, but I couldn't tell you for certain.
Q. Now, defendant -
A. According to my recollection, he came to Neurohlau on the following day.
Q. Defendant, what did you think was the basic purpose for having a concentration camp in Germany?
A. I thought that it was a good place to keep the criminals, anti-social elements, and inmates, for security reasons.
Q. Didn't you know that the very purpose of having concentration camps was the incarceration of so-called political opponents of the Nazi State?
A. To place people in custody for security reasons, who were opposed to the government. In any case, that is the way it was put to us at the time.
Q. And, as a lawyer, you don't know of any German law which provided for the incarceration of criminals who were tired by court, and then sentenced to a term of years in a concentration camp? You never heard of such a thing as that, did you, witness?
A. The legal prerequisites for the commitment to protective custody are contained in the regulations as issued by the Reich President at the time, Hindenburg, dated February, 1933. This decree is based on the Weimar constitution.
Q. You are talking about a law which permitted the commitment of criminals who had served out their sentence in a prison for further security, for further detention. Isn't that what you are talking about, witness?
A. That, also, yes. That was called the so-called Police Preventive Custody.
Q. And have you ever heard and can you give us the citation of a German law which provided for the trial of a criminal in a court, and for that court to sentence him to a term of years in a concentration camp?
A. I did notice, and I did tell you, the basic regulations which refer to such commitments. It was police trial suit, as it was called.
Q. Well, I would be interested in having those citations, if you could get them for us. Don't you know that there -
A. There is a small booklet published which is called "The legal aspects of Protective Custody." All the legal regulations are contained in there.
Q. Don't you know that the great bulk of inmates in a concentration camp were placed there under protective custody orders issued by the Gestapo without any trial of any kind?
A. According to my opinion, this is a police trail which was carried out there, I think.
Q. Well, now, you are a lawyer; weren't they committed under a protective custody order without any trial?
A. You have to differentiate here between a judicial proceeding and a police proceeding, and I believe that the latter is the one that applies. Namely, the police penal proceeding. After all, we have to point out that there is something similar today. I read today the regulations issued by General Clay. There is a definite difference made between a normal trial and arrest trial, or a trial for security reasons. Therefore, apparently, there is still something similar to it today in existence.
Q. Well, we will pass that.
When did you first learn that political inmates were committed to concentration camps?
A. In the course of the years, after 1933, without dealing with it in any way.
Q. When did you first learn that so-called "racial inferiors" and Jews were being committed to concentration camps?
A. I couldn't give you an exact date today. In the course of years, after 1939, I heard that Jews also were committed into con centration camps.
Q. Didn't you know that a large number of Jews were committed to camps after the action in November, 1938?
A. I heard about it that a few inmates were committed, but I did not know what their total number was.
Q: Did you ever hear of a court proceeding in which a man sentenced to death with the provision that he be executed in a concentration camp?
A: No, that is not known to me.
Q: The German law provides for executions in prison, doesn't it, Defendant?
A: According to my recollection, yes.
Q: Do you know anything about the ration of criminal inmates as compared to political inmates in concentration camps?
A: I can only tell you what I saw in our own enterprises. The relationship there was that after 1939 the criminal elements could be seen from the green triangle and they were far exceeding the others in number.
Q: You made a point of observing that you had a greater percentage of criminal prisoners working in your industries than political prisoners, is that right?
A: Yes, definitely so.
Q: You stated that the position of Amtschef was fictional and that this was some invention by Pohl as a result of his prior work in the Navy. Have you ever seen an organizational chart of other Hauptamts of the SS?
A: I know the organizational chart which was submitted here -- of the WVHA.
Q: But did you observe that substantially all 12 SS Main Offices and the Hauptamts, they are divided into Amt Groups and those Amt Groups are subdivided into Amts under whom there were offices and departments and offices having a chief. Did you observe that?
A: The organizational charts of the other offices I did hot see.
Q: So you did not know that the whole of the SS Supreme Command was organized in substantially the same way as the WVHA and substantially the same as your own Amt W-1; you didn't know that?
A: I heard that in our other main offices also the term "office" was used -- "Amt."
Q: You testified that there were some 14 enterprises under DEST at the end of the war, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that include Bohemia and Allach?
A: No, because it was not part of the DEST.
Q: But it was subordinated under you as Chief of Amt. W-1?
A: The two enterprises only had been incorporated into the DEST together in one single group of firms.
Q: That at least made your position as Chief of Office W-1 not quite so fictional since Allach and Bohemia were not part of DEST and you did direct the enterprises of Allach and Bohemia, didn't you defendant?
A: I was not in charge of Bohemia and Allach because Bohemia was an Aktiengesellschaft, and A.G. and had two members of the Vorstand and Allach was a G.m.b.H. and two business managers were managing it.
Q: Can you tell us in a sentence exactly what you did do with respect to Bohemia and Allach?
A: I could have conferences with the management of these two enterprises. I could make suggestions and give instructions. I could not give orders against their own will.
Q: You could not give orders against their own will? Well, what was the total number of inmates, the largest number of inmates, employed in these 14 enterprises of DEST and also Bohemia and Allach?
Now can you give us a total figure? I want to know the highest number of inmates during the war that was employed in those industries.
A: I shall try to give you that as accurately as I can, Mr. Prosecutor. According to my recollection the total figure was approximately between fourteen and fifteen thousand.
Q: Fourteen and fifteen thousand? And that's the highest number?
A: Yes, according to the compilation which I made, yes.
Q: What is your compilation based on?
A: My recollection.
Q: And that includes all the people working in the munitions, the armament works in Mauthausen, Gusen, and that is the whole operation?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Now, how did W-1 control and check on the operation of these plants? One way was that you made trips to the plants frequently, isn't that right?
A: Yes, as a business manager of the DEST, yes.
Q: Mr. Prosecutor, you are nor referring to the people in the works, in the plants, or in Berlin?
Q: Well, did you have meetings of plant managers, all plant managers?
A: We used to do it in the following manner. All works managers as of 1943 met approximately every six months, and every three months the works managers of either the brick works or the granite works met. However, towards the end of 1944 due to the difficulties in transportation this could no longer be carried out. From then on it had to be discontinued.
Q: And then they had to visit -- Schondorff and Schwarz -- in addition to your own to the plants?
A: Yes.
Q: And how often did you get reports from each individual plant?
A: The enterprises as an average would send in a report once monthly.
Q: And your testimony is that these reports contained no data concerning the rate of turnover of the inmates -of sickness -- of deaths?
A: I can't remember having seen anything about death rate figures and -- yes, sick inmates were mentioned, but not death rates. Particularly then when epidemics had broken out in the camps, as was the case in 1942 and 1943 on repeated occasions, whereupon a quarantine was fixed on the plants and the plants had to cease working.
Q: Then you did receive in these reports data concerning the rate of illness among the inmates, is that right?
A: In those reports there might be figures that so and so many inmates were sick. Yes, that is quite possible.
Q: But they thought it was not important to mention the death rate, is that right?
A: That is not what I meant by that.
Q: And they didn't tell you anything about how fast your labor -
A: If this should have occurred in the plants the works manager would have reported it to us in Berlin.
Q: Now, wait just a minute. You mean if you had a death in the plant -- somebody died -- and that would have been reported to you, is that right?
A: I can't remember that.
Q: Didn't you just testify that if anyone had died in the plant, any of the inmates, that it would have been reported to you?
A: I said that there were reports on the sick, or the number of sick was contained in the reports.
Q: And these reports included nothing about the turnover in your labor pool?
A: No, we had the figures of the inmates working in the plant. They were sub-divided according to skilled workers, the auxiliary workers, civilian workers, employees, and apprentices.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.