A No, we never received any.
Q Did Georg Loerner in his capacity as deputy of Office Chief W have any practical function to carry out?
AAs far as I can recall he sometimes listened to the various financial discussions.
Q Whom did you consider to be your immediate superior?
A Only Pohl.
Q What happened whenever Pohl was away? Who made the decisions then and who would sign orders which were of importance - and letters?
A If it was a very important matter, then a courier would be sent after Pohl and in any other case it would just remain in the office and on two occasions I tried in the absence of Pohl to receive a decision from Loerner. However, he told me that he was not acquainted at all with those questions and therefore he could not reach any decision. He asked me to wait until Pohl had returned.
Q Do you know Pohl's order or can you recall Pohl's order where he decrees that the Office Chiefs of Office Group W are to take important matters first to Georg Loerner? This order is contained in Document Book XIV. This is Document NO-1048. It is the last document in Document Book XIV. Did this order come to your knowledge at the time?
A Yes, I know to what you are referring.
Q Did it come to your knowledge?
A Yes, we received a copy of it, as far as I can recall.
Q Was this order of Pohl ever actually put into effect?
A No, this was not possible for the reason that Pohl would not relinquish any of his authority. I can recall that some time after I had received these orders Pohl stated regarding one of the discussions that the matter was sealed and that matters would be handled now as they had been handled before, and conferences could only be held by him.
Q Georg Loerner, however, was the second business manager of the DWB. Did he ever make his appearance in practice in this capacity?
A I can say in summation the same thing here as what I have just said.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: I have no further question.
THE PRESIDENT: No other questions by defense counsel? We will recess until two o'clock when the prosecution will cross-examine.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION Karl Mummenthey - resumed CROSS EXAMINATION
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Defendant, I will ask that you give very brief, factual answers to my questions which I shall try to make as pointed as possible. I don't want any long discussions.
You joined the SS in 1934, is that right?
A Yes.
Q That's the Allgemeine SS?
A Reiter-SS and Allgemeine-SS.
Q Well, you were a member of the Allgemeine-SS, isn't that right?
A Yes.
Q What rank did you attain in the Allgemeine-SS?
A First of all I was a cadet, then I became an officer.
Q I say, what rank did you finally attain? What as your highest rank in the Allgemeine-SS?
A Sturmbannfuehrer.
Q In the Waffen-SS you attained the rank of Obersturmbannfuehrer in the reserve, is that right?
A Yes.
Q What awards did you receive as a member of the SS?
A I received the Kriegsverdienstkreuz, first and second class, and the so-called Sudeten medal.
Q Did you get any other awards?
A No.
Q Were those two awards you mentioned given to you as a result of your work in the WVHA in connection with the DEST enterprises?
A I have to assume that.
Q You forgot to tell the Tribunal that you were awarded the Totenkopfring, didn't you defendant?
A Yes. However, that is not a decoration.
Q Well, who gets the Totenkopfring, witness?
A The terms as such as to who received the ring are not known to me.
Q You don't know why you were awarded that ring, is that right?
AAccording to my recollection I believe every SS officer received that as a standing order of the time. I do not know the terms under which such a ring was issued.
Q Well, were you a member of the Totenkopfverbaende, defendant?
A No.
Q That was not a prerequisite for getting the Totenkopfring?
A No, indeed.
Q What did the ring have - a death head on it?
A Yes.
Q You knew that those were the troops that guarded the concentration camps, didn't you defendant?
A That has nothing to do with that, at least nothing to do with the ring.
Q But, be that as it may, you know that the Totenkopfverbaende guarded concentration camps, didn't you defendant?
A That is correct.
Q And you never were a member of a unit of the Totenkopfverbaende?
A No, I was not.
Q The Verfuegungstruppe?
A No. I was only a member of the Waffen-SS from 1940 onward.
Q You joined the Allgemeine-SS voluntarily, didn't you, witness?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And you joined the Waffen-SS also voluntarily, didn't you witness?
A I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q Well, did you make any efforts to try to get service in some branch of the Wehrmacht other than the SS?
A I was a member of the Wehrmacht. I already stated in direct examination that in 1940 I was sent up by conscription order and I received that conscription order whereupon I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q Did you try to get service in some other branch of the Wehrmacht? You were perfectly happy with the Waffen-SS, weren't you defendant?
A I did not do any military duty or military service in the Waffen-SS.
Q I say, did you try to get into any other branch of the Wehrmacht, yes or no?
A Later on I tried to get into the Luftwaffe but didn't succeed.
Q In 1940 you did not?
A Not in 1940.
Q Do you accept the responsibility for the operation of the DEST enterprise?
A I don't quite understand that question, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q I say, do you accept the responsibility for operation of the DEST enterprise?
A I was a co-business manager of DEST German Earth and Stone Works and in that capacity, which according to commercial law, namely according to G.m.b.H. I have to bear the responsibility for it.
Q Well, my question was directed more to your, shall we say moral responsibility, the legal question will be settled by this Tribunal, but I wanted some reaction from you personally to see if you are ready to accept the responsibility for the operation of the DEST enterprise.
A I simply didn't understand your question, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q I say, I just wish to know whether you personally from a moral point of view now accept the responsibility for the operation of the DEST enterprise?
A I was nothing but the co-business manager of that enterprise is all I can say.
Q Well, if you aren't responsible whom should we look to?
A I did not say that I was not responsible. I simply said I was co-business manager of the German Earth and Stone Works.
Q You don't know of anyone else.
A I am responsible just like any other business manager according to the German law.
Q You don't know of anybody else you would believe more responsible for the over all operation of the DEST enterprise than you yourself, witness?
A. Within the business management of the BEST, which, in the last few years, consisted of three business managers, the fields of tasks were distributed amongst individuals as described by me in my direct examination.
Q. That is just what I was getting at. Then you tell the Tribunal your responsibility should be limited to financial matters, is that right?
A. I dealt with the commercial field of task, the financial field of task and the legal field of task in the direction of the enterprises.
Q. Had nothing to do with the allocation of inmates to your enterprises, is that right?
A. The allocation of inmates according to the work of the enterprises was first of all with the business managers and then with the technical management. That, of course, does not mean that all three business managers on individual questions would also deal with labor allocation questions.
Q. Did you deal with labor allocation questions, did you or didn't you?
A. If it was necessary, yes, but not fundamentally.
Q. Was it necessary, did you in fact?
A. Yes, I did; that is correct.
Q. That is fine, Now, did you accept your responsibility for the W-I, Amt W-I, Chief of Amt W-I, is that right?
(There was an interruption due to a defect in the sound system.)
THE INTERPRETER: All right, sir.
Q. (By Mr. McHaney) As Chief of Amt W-I do you accept responsibility for the operation of that office?
A. I stated in the direct examination that Office W-I was a fictitious office, and it is identical with the main administration of the German Earth & Stone Works. It was no special office. All prerequisites were lacking for such an office.
Q. We will come back to that in a moment. Were the works managers of the individual plants appointed by you?
A. No, they were not selected by me alone. Only two business managers together could make a suggestion to Herr Pohl, and Herr Pohl was the one who had the last decision whether a person would become business manager or not, because the contract with the works manager had to be submitted for approval of the amount which was to be paid out to him as a salary.
Q. I can understand that Herr Pohl exercised some influence in these matters, but as a practical thing didn't you select and recommend the works managers?
A. Yes, I selected them and recommended them, yes, but I was not the one up to whom the decision was.
Q. And they were subordinated to you, weren't they?
A. You mean those that were subordinate to the business management, to the three business managers?
Q. Herr Mummenthey, weren't the business managers of the individual enterprises subordinated to you as Chief of Amt W and as chief business manager of the DEST?
A. They were subordinated to the three business managers.
Q. Were they SS members?
THE PRESIDENT: The managers, you mean the managers?
MR. McHANEY: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. McHaney) Were the plant managers SS members?
A. The works managers were civilian workers, and a few of them, during the war, were conscripted into the WaffenSS, and in part they were appointed Fachfuehrer. That is professional expert.
Q. Your answer is that for the most part they were members of the SS, is that right?
A. No.
Q. Suppose you name some who were not members of the SS. Was Walter a member of the SS in Mauthausen?
A. Yes, he was, but he was not a Fachfuehrer nor a professional expert.
Q. I didn't ask you whether he was a professional expert or Fachfuehrer or anything else. I asked you if he was a member of the SS, and he was, wasn't he?
A. Yes, he had been conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q. And how about Kahn at Neuengamme, was he a member of the SS?
A. He was also conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q. And suppose you tell the Tribunal several of them who were not members of the SS, Defendant? Let's spell their names too when you do it so we can check into it and see.
A. The works manager, Kaiser, from Oranienburg.
Q. What was his name?
A. Kaiser, and his name is just like the Kaiser, K-a-i-s-e-r.
Q. Who else?
A. The works manager of Berstedt, Linke, L-i-n-k-e; the works manager of Marburg, Wojtich, I shall spell that name, W-o-j-t-i-c-h; the works manager of Linz, Schraneck, S-c-h-r-a-n-e-c-k.
Q. Spell that again.
A. S-c-h-r-a-n-e-c-k.
Q. Those are all of them that were civilians?
A. Yes, quite so. The others originally were also civilians, and during the war they were conscripted.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, just one question. You said that you were one of three business managers of DEST?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The other two were Schondorf and Schwarz?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, yes.
Q. (By Mr. McHaney) Was Gerhard Maurer ever manager of DEST, Defendant?
A. No, he was not. Maurer, for a certain period of time, was business manager, according to my recollection, from 1939 to 1940.
Q. Business manager where?
A. Of the DEST in Berlin.
Q. Now, Schwarz, who testified here for you, was in fact the technical man for the granite works, wasn't he, Defendant, just as you stated in your own affidavit?
A. He was a so-called industrial merchant. That is to say, he was a merchant with technical knowledge who in the course of his commercial activity, he had acquired those things in that branch. However, by that he is not a technician. That does not necessarily mean he is a technician.
Q. Who was your technician for the granite works if Schwartz was not?
A. It was Herr Guttchen who in 1941 or 1942 resigned.
Q. And who was the technical man thereafter?
A. The tasks were entirely transferred to the plants from a technical point of view, and Herr Schondorf became the man in charge of everything that was technical. As far as technical fundamental questions were concerned he interpolated.
Q. So your testimony is in support of Schwartz' own testimony that he never served as a technical man for the granite works, is that right?
A. No, you couldn't say that.
Q. Then you would say he was a technical man for the granite works, at least in some part?
A. No, no, I mean you can't call him a technician.
Q. Now, you say your activity in 1939, '40 and '41 was concerned with contracts, with construction firms, and legal questions?
A. Yes.
Q. Were these contracts with construction firms in connection with the establishment of new plants in the concentration camps?
A. The plants, Mr. Prosecutor, were not within the camp, but they were outside of the camp. The contracts which we were dealing about at the time, which were to be concluded, had already been signed in 1938, at a time, in other words, when I was not a business manager.
Q. But those construction contracts with which you dealt were concerned with the erection of new plants, isn't that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Those construction firms used inmates in building these plants, didn't they?
A. Yes, they did so.
Q. Did Amtsgruppe C or its forerunner, the Budget and Building Office, have anything to do with the construction of works for DEST?
A. I understood you to say Finance Department, Mr. Prosecutor. That isn't correct, is it?
Q. Amtsgruppe C and its forerunner, the Budget and Building Office, did they have anything to do with the construction of plants for DEST?
A. No.
Q. Nothing whatever?
A. No, they did not establish a single plant.
Q. Did they ever do any work for you?
A. Amtsgruppe C was to carry out some sort of a construction worn in Linz. Otherwise, I really can't remember or I can't think of where Amtsgruppe C was supposed to work.
Q. Well, your testimony then is as far as you can remember Amtsgruppe C never did anything for the DEST?
A. According to my recollection, no.
Q. Now, when you took the position with Salpeter in 1938, did you got to any of the concentration camps before accepting that position, that job?
A. No.
Q. When did you first go to a concentration camp?
A. According to my recollection it was in 1939 that I went to a concentration camp together with Dr. Salpeter. That was within the commando building of Sachsenhausen.
Q. The first time you were in a concentration camp was in 1939 in Sachsenhausen?
A. Yes, that is as far as I can recall.
Q. You knew when you took this job with DEST that it was operated by inmate labor, didn't you?
A. I knew at the time in 1939, in the spring of 1939 when I joined the DEST that the inmates were being used as labor, yes.
Q. Weren't you working with the DEST in 1938, with Salpeter?
A. I remember that in 1938, in the winter of 1938, I dealt with a few legal questions.
Q. How many times did you visit concentration camps, and I know distinguish between these visits to the plants the visits to the concentration camps themselves. How many times have you been in a concentration camp?
A. You mean the headquarters building, Mr. Prosecutor. If I had to speak to the commander, I could only do that in his office in the headquarters building. That was the reason why I had to go and see him, and that occurred on several occasions in the course of the years.
How many times were you in a concentration camp? Let's just take the front gate, how many times did you walk through the front gate?
A. I simply couldn't tell you that today, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. About 50 times?
A. I really can't remember a figure.
Q. Well, would you say that was too high or too low?
A. I simply can't give you any figure, Mr. Prosecutor, I simply can't.
Q. You can't, or you refuse to?
A. After all I am sitting here at the witnesses' dock, and it is not a question of wanting to or being able to tell you. After so many years, I can't tell you how many visits I made to the individual plans and how many times I have seen the commander. It would simply be impossible.
Q. Now, defendant, you must have had some sort of regular inspection trips to your plants. How often did you visit the plants now. You said you had 14 by the end of the war. How many times did you visit those plants during a years time?
A. Well, it depended entirely on the importance of my call, and it depended on the importance of the plant also. As an average, in the more important plants, it was three or four, and possibly five times a year, and in the smaller enterprises, or plants, it was once or twice a year at the utmost.
Q. But you made it a point to visit every plant of the DEST industry, didn't you, defendant?
A. Yes; that was my duty.
Q. And isn't it true that you customarily went inside the camp proper when you made visits to these plants?
A. If it was necessary to talk to the commander, I would go to his office.
Q. All right, that gets us rather close to a figure, doesn't it. defendant? You said you visited at least the larger plants as frequently as five times a year. You just take a rough average of ten plants, that's 50 trips a year. So, my figure of 50 times in the concentration camps was undoubtedly too low, wasn't it, defendant?
A. I did not go to the commander every time I went to visit a plant. That was not necessary every time I went to visit a plant.
Q. You just testified that you usually did though, isn't that true?
A. I stated that if it should become necessary I went to see the commander.
Q. And that was usually necessary, wasn't it?
A. Frequently.
Q. Now, defendant, didn't you also frequently make a tour of the camp when you went there, look at the barracks, see the inmates around, inspect the work shops inside of the camp itself, talk to the works managers, the labor allocators; weren't you generally familiar with these concentration camps?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the plants were not within the concentration camps, but rather outside the concentration camps. I took a good look at our plants.
Q. I am talking about the concentration camp proper, and I am telling you, or suggesting to you that you inspected these camps. You Knew what was going on in the camps?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever inspect the barracks in a concentration camp?
A. In smaller camps I did visit the billets in Berstedt, or Reimannsfelde, or Oranienburg. I now talk about the barracks which were at the immediately proximity of our plant. I did not go into the camp proper, namely, the protective custody camp.
Q. It is awful difficult to find out just exactly what you did. Did you ever inspect any concentration camp? Generally, did you go on a conducted tour through any concentration camp?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Now, you remember this document we put in, in Book Number 3, in which you asked the camp commander at Natzweiler, I believe, to arrange for a visit of the defendant Volk--- Flossenbuerg it was. That is document No-1030, prosecution's Exhibit 62. It is on page 72 of Book 3. You state in that letter to the camp commander Koegel that Volk has not as yet been at Flossenbuerg, and he wanted to see the camp.
A. There is nothing about that in the letter, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Witness, I will read you the sentence. "As SS-Huptstrumfuehrer Volk has not as yet been at Flossenbuerg and wants to see the camp, we shall arrive at Weiden on Monday, July 5, at 1525 hours."
A. Mr. Prosecutor, there is nothing contained about the camp of Flossenbuerg in that letter.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, I would appreciate it if the defendant would be given an opportunity to take a look at this document. After all he can't see it.
MR. MC HANEY: If Defense counsel will pass him up his book, he will have an opportunity to look at it. I assumed that the defendant was familiar with this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have this document?
A. No, I don't have it, Your Honor.
BY MR. MC HANDY:
Q. It is on page 74, defendant.
A. I've got it. May I read what is contained on here, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. Yes.
A. "As SS-Huptsturmfuehrer Volk does not know Flossenbuerg as yet and would like to know Flossenbuerg, etc. etc." Nothing is contained in there that he wants to see the camp and that he wants to visit it. This letter only refers to the visit of the plant of Flossenbuerg of DEST.
Q. Well, now, defendant, that is a conclusion that it refers to the plant. It says that Dr. Volk hasn't seen the camp at Flossenbuerg and he wants to see it and that you have arranged with Liebehenschel for the permit to get in, isn't that what it says?
A. That permission from Liebehenschel refers to something entirely different.
Q. It doesn't say the plant, it says the camp, isn't that right?
A. It is stated here, "Obersturmbannfuehrer Liebehenschel will give you permission by teletype to travel." That refers to the trip between Flossenbuerg and Karlsbad, but nothing is contained in there about a permission to enter the camp. The travel orders that had been issued was necessary at the time in connection with the use of motor vehicles.
Q. Well, defendant, we will leave it to the Tribunal as to the true meaning of the document, but your testimony is that in any event that you and Volk did not go to Flossenbuerg and did not inspect the camp, the concentration camp, is that right?
A. Yes quite so.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, just to assist us in finding out what the document means, the last sentence would seen to indicate that the witness' interpretation is logical. He says that Liebehenschel will have the permit for the trip teleprinted to you. Then it says the fuel will be supplied by Flossenbuerg. It seems to indicate that it means -- it refers to a trip from Flossenbuerg to somewhere else.
MR. MC HANEY: That is quite true, Your Honor. There is not question about that. They were planning to go to a meeting in connection with the firm Bohemia which was not located at Flossenbuerg but was located at Karlsbad.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Karlsbad.
MR. MC HANEY: The defendant Volk, having not seen Flossenbuerg before and he wanted to see Flossenbuerg, and it states in the first paragraph of the letter -
THE PRESIDENT: But the permit referred to is not the permit to see Flossenbuerg, is it? It is the permit to travel from Flossenbuerg to Karlsbad.
MR. MC HANEY: Well, that may be, Your Honor, but that is not the point I was trying to make with him. The question is whether or not they saw the camp or saw the plant.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right. All right. There is no doubt that the word camp is properly translated?
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Defendant, will you find the German document and read off the word which is used for camp? Page 74, first paragraph, second sentence.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I can't find a single word equivalent in meaning to the word "camp", or "lager", which is the German word for "camp". There is no such word as "lager" or "camp". I believe that there must be some word used in connection with "camp".
THE PRESIDENT: The word "lager" is not in there.
MR. MC HANEY: I am sure I don't know. The only thing I have before me is the translation. I suggest he read the German.
THE PRESIDENT: (To witness) Read the German that I have drawn the line under, that sentence.
Witness: "As SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, Dr. Volk does not know Flossenbuerg as yet and would like to know Flossenbuerg or see it, we shall, on Monday, etc, etc." Shall I continue?
THE PRESIDENT: No, that is enough. After the word "Flossenbuerg ....he does not know Flossenbuerg..." then it says -- Read it after that.
Witness: "And he would like to see Flossenbuerg". etc. etc.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the German word for camp in there? Is it "lager?" What is the German word for camp, Is that in there?
WITNESS: No, it isn't, Your Honor.
MR. MC HANEY: Well, I think the translation, if the Tribunal please, would be substantially correct if you substitute the word "Flossenbuerg" for camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, yes; you are putting a good deal of faith on the fact that he went to see the camp -- and not the plants.
MR. MC HANEY: The word. "Flossenbuerg" is used twice in the sentence, so I say that the substitution should be the word "Flossenbuerg" for the camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but that robs it of the implication that you give it.
MR. MC HANEY: That may be, Your Honor. I am not going to argue that point now, but I say to correct the translation that is what is necessary apparently.
THE PRESIDENT: That certainly is necessary, and I wonder how many others there are in these document books.