A. I did not hear anything about that at all at the time.
Q. I have already stated before that you were in a certain local connection to the concentration camps, and now in the activity of the concentration camps, their commanders and their guards, you did see these things at the time as a criminal system?
A. I did not consider that to be a criminal system. The commandants with whom I talked in the course of time, with the exception of commanders who were relieved, made a very correct impression on me, and they also acted quite correctly. What I have seen and heard could not bring me to believe that behind all this a criminal system prevailed. I had to make any observations also under the point of view of the conditions caused by the war. After all, here we had deficiencies, that I was dealing with individual cases here, and that also was shown by the official gazettes of the notifications of the SS courts. At the same time, in this literature it was emphasized how severe the sentences were because any actions against the basic principles of the SS rule for cleanliness and discipline would be extremely severely punished. Now, I ask myself, in view of such proclamations, how could anybody gain the thought that the SS was a criminal organization. Didn't we actually have to assume the contrary from all these statements, if any organization in its own ranks carries out such an extremely severe justice in its own ranks?
Q. Did you hear anything about the things which took place in the East, for example, in Treblinka, Auschwitz, Lublin, in order to mention some of the names? Did you hear anything at all about that during the war?
A. No, I don't know Lublin at all.
Q. But you were a member of the SS, and, after all, you had the possibility to look into the organization of the SS, and to look into the character of the most important men in the SS.
A. The persons with whom I had official contact at all were my superiors or they were my equals. In these people I have noticed several traits that were good, and also some bad traits.
Q. How was it with regard to your immediate superior, Pohl?
A. I consider my former superior Pohl to be a man who, after all discussions and conversations, gave me every reason to consider him a person who did his duty, and held a very high office in the State.
Q. Did you ever talk to Himmler?
A. As far as I can recall, I talked to Himmler on two occasions; once in 1943 or '44 when he visited the brick plant at Oranienburg; and then in 1944 at St. Eigen, near Salzburg. Here he had his field headquarters, and at the time we were dealing with a large shipment of porcelain goods for the requirements of the troops and for the Obersalzberg. In both cases I could not find anything in him which would have raised my suspicions. Perhaps the time was much too short for me to do that.
Q. Is it correct that Pohl, in the year 1942, on one occasion, made a speech before SS officers of the WVHA, and here he mentioned the execution of an SS officer Sauerzweig because of corruption?
A. I can remember that quite clearly. Pohl at the time used very sharp words. He said, among other things, "Whoever besmudges the name of the SS will be dealt with ruthlessly."
Q. In the course of the trial, Herr Hummenthey, an affidavit of Dr. Morgen has been submitted. At the time he was ordered to investigate the happenings at Lublin. Do you recall that affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you draw any conclusions of your own from that affidavit?
A. I, myself, do not know Dr. Morgen, and I never had anything to do with him. If I remember correctly, here he denounces the entire system of the concentration camps; and I never heard anything about his condemnation of the system of the concentration camps.
Q. Do you recall that Morgen said that it was not possible for him either to discover and uncover the very last secrets?
A. Yes, I can recall that.
Q. Although he personally had a special assignment, and he had special authority, and he was even able to arrest these people--doesn't this show a certain conclusion which you can use in your favor before this Tribunal?
A. I can ask myself if a man who was equipped with such authority could not uncover all the secrets--how should it be possible for any other person who did not have that special authority.
Q. I shall go on to ask you now, with regard to the verdict of the I.M.T. at Nurnberg, did you participate in any plans which the I.M.T. has described as the basis of the verdict for declaring the SS a criminal organization? In particular, did you participate in the persecution and extermination of the Jews--yes or no.
A. No.
Q. Did you participate in atrocities or murders in the concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Did you participate in excesses which were committed in the administration of Occupied Territories?
A. No.
Q. Did you participate in the execution of the forced-labor program? And in the execution of the slave labor program, and the mal-treatment and murder of inmates and prisoners of war?
A. No.
Q. Did you have anything to do with that officially, and did you ever participate in that personally?
A. I had nothing to do with that personally, and I did Not participate in that.
Q. Were you ever active in Office Group D in the RSHA, or in the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, and did you have any access to the material there?
A. No, I never had that.
Q. What did you know about that?
A. I didn't know anything at all about these things.
Q. Did you hear anything about the rumors which the witness Bickel has mentioned here, the rumors which went through Germany?
A. During the war, in the course of time, so many rumors circulated that we were unable to determine just what was true and what was not true. One rumor came after the other.
Q. Did you listen to foreign broadcasts?
A. No, I couldn't do that. I lived at a place where other persons could also have heard that.
Q. You could recall that the witness Bickel stated that he was able to be completely informed about all the conditions by listening to foreign broadcasts?
A. I have already stated that I heard this from inmates after the collapse, and these inmates told me that they had good receiving facilities.
Q. It seems to me that a person had to go into a concentration camp in order to find out what news came from abroad...
A. Yes, that may perhaps be the case.
Q. And now, my last questions. If, in any form, you had obtained knowledge of all these things which I have just put to you, just what steps could you have taken, and what steps should you have taken?
A. In April, 1939, I entered the DEST. In the course of 1939 and 1940 I became acquainted with the various enterprises. When the war broke out Pohl stated in a speech that he would bring any person into a concentration camp who opposed his will and his orders in any form, and who volunteered for front-line duty. He alone wanted to assign these people for duty. In 1940 I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS, and I couldn't turn in any case to a civil court. I couldn't object to my contract to the DEST. After all, then I would have been submitted to a procedure before an SS court.
Q But even if you did recognize the criminal character of the SS in any way, of what possibilities could you have availed yourself?
A I am asking myself if I could have turned to any government agency in Germany, for instance, the Prosecutor or the Chief Prosecutor or the Ministry of Justice. I don't know to whom I could have turned. I actually do hot know anybody to whom I could have turned in that matter in order to have any success.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, in concluding your presentation of evidence, do you want to make any statement?
A I would like to say the following: I belonged to the generation of Germans, who, during their entire life, have never known any stability and normal conditions. In the midst of feverish events we had no breathing space. We had the German Empire collapsing, and the failure of a revolution, a weak republic, inflation, and the millions of unemployed. These were the experiences which lead to a very deep disappointment to all the persons living in that period and with that were also prepared to follow a man who promised to change all the conditions and to improve them. And he led the entire nation into such a terrible disaster. After the collapse, a phrase was coined and here it was said that a giant amount of unlimited confidence of an entire people was senselessly wasted within a few years. For myself and my collaborators I would like to say that after the collapse we felt what is expressed by Marshall Montgomery in the "Maid of Orleans": "Wasn't the industrious life which we have lead worth more than to fall victim to deception?"
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination by defense counsel?
BY DR. BELZER (Attorney for defendant Karl Sommer):
Q Witness, you met the defendant Karl Sommer in the DEST as a civilian employed?
A Yes.
Q That was in the time from 1941 until 1942, in the course of that year, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Then the defendant Sommer was transferred from your office and he was transferred to Office D-II. Can you tell the Tribunal anything about your personal observations with regard to how far Defendant Karl Sommer in Office D-II, in particular, here I am thinking of the question of whether Sommer was the Deputy Chief of Office D-II?
A On several occasions I talked to Sommer at that time. My two colleagues, Schondorff and Schwarz, talked to him likewise. I can recall that whenever I required a decision from him, he used to tell me "I would like to do it, but first I have to talk the matter over with Maurer, because he has to make a decision there. If necessary I shall contact Pohl." From this I had to assume that he did not have any right to make his own decisions within the scope of Office D-II.
Q In the time from May, 1942, until the collapse, was there any occasion on which the defendant Karl Sommer, even if only on a temporary basis, had been appointed the labor allocation officer in the concentration camp Auschwitz?
A No, I didn't hear anything about that.
DR. BELZER: Your Honor, I have no further questions.
BY DR. MAAS (Attorney for the defendant Hohberg):
Q Witness, did Dr. Hohberg audit the DEST and what were the results of that examination?
A Dr. Hohberg, as an auditor, audited the DEST in the years 1940 and 1941. That was at a time when Dr. Salpeter was still with us.
Q What were the results of this examination? What I mean to say is, did Dr. Hohberg issue the final certificate or did he refuse it?
AAs far as I can recall, he did not issue the certificate, because Dr. Salpeter and he corresponded and had several discussions about the matter.
Q Do you know whether, after the time of Hohberg, a certificate was issued for this back period?
AAs far as I can recall, it was issued by Herr Dr. Vierlich. I believe he was an auditor from Vienna.
Q Was Dr. Hohberg present when conferences took place about the financing of the new plants of the DEST at Dessau, Neuengamme, or Ausschwitz?
A No, not in the cases which you have mentioned.
Q I am now coming to another point. In the course of this trial several witnesses have claimed that Pohl had a supervision about his economic enterprises and that this was done, in the words of the witnesses, as part of this official duties. As far as the W-sector is concerned, was there any official supervision at all aside from the authority which was given to him by commercial law?
A The matter was unclear three years ago and in the course of time it has not become any clearer, and, in this trial, I believe, it has become completely confused. I only looked at the whole matter from the aspect of commercial law and economics.
Q Would it have been possible, according to German law, that Pohl could be the sole partner and the business manager of the DWB and besides that could he exercise any official supervision in a certain way. He would have had to supervise himself in that matter.
A In my opinion, the position of a business manager excludes any supervision. After all, he couldn't supervise himself.
Q And now I am coming to my final question. Can you tell me just what reputation Hohberg had in political matters; what reputation did he enjoy with the SS officers in the WVHA?
A In general, he was considered to be an outsider. He was not a member of the SS and he was considered to maintain a skeptical attitude toward the SS and in this he was considered by some as unreliable.
Q Do you know whether, for this reason, he was subjected to any hostility?
AAfter he left the office in 1943, I heard about that.
Q Can you give us any details about that? Can you tell us what you heard?
A I can't recall that. I can only inform you of the general picture.
DR. MAAS: Thank you. I have no further questions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was Hohberg's position in Staff W? Say that again.
THE WITNESS: Dr. Hohberg, first of all, was an auditor, and, second, he was the economic consultant of Pohl. He had the title Chief of Staff W - in my opinion, he had that title in a similar sense as we had the terms "Office Chief W-I," and so on.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't get the date when you joined the National Socialist Party?
THE WITNESS: Through my membership in the General SS in 1938, as far as I can recall, I was taken over into the party automatically.
DR. FICHT (Attorney for defendant Klein): Your Honor, I only have one particular question.
BY DR. FICHT:
Q Witness, do you know that Pohl in 1943 or 1944 carried out a ruthless simplification of the administration and here he did not consider formal administrative regulations at all?
A I can recall something similar and it was called the so-called "Chief Order." These "Chief Orders" would come very frequently from Pohl in that field.
DR. FICHT: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. KLINERT (Attorney for the defendants Yolk and Bobermin):
Q Witness, I have several questions to ask of you and they refer to the defendant Volk. Was Dr. Yolk ever Chief of Staff W or Chief W?
A I cannot recall ever having heard that he held that position.
Q Was Dr. Volk appointed the official deputy of the Chief of Staff W or Chief W?
A I did not hear anything about that either.
Q Did Dr. Volk as the Director of the Legal Department of Staff W, have any authority to give you orders in your capacity as Chief of Office W-I?
A No, we only received orders from Pohl.
Q As Director of the Legal Department of Staff W did Dr. Volk have any authority to issue orders to the Legal Department of the DEST?
A No, after all, the Legal Department was part of the enterprise and within the enterprise it was subordinated to me.
Q Was Dr. Volk ever employed with the DEST?
A No.
Q Do you know who purchased the brick works at Stutthof and the estate near Walterhof?
A The purchase was carried out, as far as I can recall, by the German Reich. It was represented in this case by the WVHA office A-III.
Q And who then administered the brick works?
A The brick works were administered by the DEST and they were also leased by DEST.
Q Did Dr. Volk have anything to do with this?
A Not as far as I can recall. The negotiations about that were carried out between the DEST and the legal office, Office A-III.
Q Who actually took case of the affiliation of the Public Utilities House and Read Estate, G.m.b.H. before Volk?
A That was handled by Dr. Salpeter.
Q Do you know that at that time the enterprise also purchased properties which had formerly been owed by the Jews?
A Yes.
Q Who took care of the negotiations with regard to purchasing these properties?
AAs far as I can recall, Pohl or Dr. Salpeter appointed Herr Kuehler, a civilian employee to that task.
Q And now another question which refers to Defendant Bobermin. In the letter of the Chief of Office A-III of the 8th of May, 1940, to the Chief of the Main Office, Administration and Economy, a settlement is provided with regard to deputizing for the office chief. Here we are dealing with a letter which has been presented by the prosecution, as Document NO-1045, Exhibit 23, and it is contained in Document Book II on page 41 of the German text and page 26 of the English text.
A I have found it.
Q In this letter the following is stated in the beginning: "As my deputy, I first of all appoint SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Hummenthey, and SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Bobermin". What settlement was to be reached here with respect to the deputizing for the Office Chief?
A Dr. Salpeter had stated expressly that this deputizing was only to refer to myself to the field of the DEST Office A-III/1, and to Dr. Bobermin, in the field of Office A-III/4. That was the trusteeship and later on the Eastern German Construction, G.m.b.H.
Q If I have understood you correctly, then neither you nor Dr. Bobermin were to deputize for the entire field of task for the Office Chief?
A Only for the fields which I have just mentioned.
Q And the same thing applies to the Defendant Bobermin?
A Yes.
DR. KLINERT: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other examination by defense counsel?
BY DR. MUELLER-THORGOW (Attorney for Defendant Georg Loerner):
Q Witness, you knew that the defendant Georg Loerner was the Deputy Chief of Office W?
A Yes.
Q Did you, or did your office ever receive any orders from Georg Loerner in this capacity?
A No, we never received any.
Q Did Georg Loerner in his capacity as deputy of Office Chief W have any practical function to carry out?
AAs far as I can recall he sometimes listened to the various financial discussions.
Q Whom did you consider to be your immediate superior?
A Only Pohl.
Q What happened whenever Pohl was away? Who made the decisions then and who would sign orders which were of importance - and letters?
A If it was a very important matter, then a courier would be sent after Pohl and in any other case it would just remain in the office and on two occasions I tried in the absence of Pohl to receive a decision from Loerner. However, he told me that he was not acquainted at all with those questions and therefore he could not reach any decision. He asked me to wait until Pohl had returned.
Q Do you know Pohl's order or can you recall Pohl's order where he decrees that the Office Chiefs of Office Group W are to take important matters first to Georg Loerner? This order is contained in Document Book XIV. This is Document NO-1048. It is the last document in Document Book XIV. Did this order come to your knowledge at the time?
A Yes, I know to what you are referring.
Q Did it come to your knowledge?
A Yes, we received a copy of it, as far as I can recall.
Q Was this order of Pohl ever actually put into effect?
A No, this was not possible for the reason that Pohl would not relinquish any of his authority. I can recall that some time after I had received these orders Pohl stated regarding one of the discussions that the matter was sealed and that matters would be handled now as they had been handled before, and conferences could only be held by him.
Q Georg Loerner, however, was the second business manager of the DWB. Did he ever make his appearance in practice in this capacity?
A I can say in summation the same thing here as what I have just said.
DR. MUELLER-THORGOW: I have no further question.
THE PRESIDENT: No other questions by defense counsel? We will recess until two o'clock when the prosecution will cross-examine.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until two o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION Karl Mummenthey - resumed CROSS EXAMINATION
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Defendant, I will ask that you give very brief, factual answers to my questions which I shall try to make as pointed as possible. I don't want any long discussions.
You joined the SS in 1934, is that right?
A Yes.
Q That's the Allgemeine SS?
A Reiter-SS and Allgemeine-SS.
Q Well, you were a member of the Allgemeine-SS, isn't that right?
A Yes.
Q What rank did you attain in the Allgemeine-SS?
A First of all I was a cadet, then I became an officer.
Q I say, what rank did you finally attain? What as your highest rank in the Allgemeine-SS?
A Sturmbannfuehrer.
Q In the Waffen-SS you attained the rank of Obersturmbannfuehrer in the reserve, is that right?
A Yes.
Q What awards did you receive as a member of the SS?
A I received the Kriegsverdienstkreuz, first and second class, and the so-called Sudeten medal.
Q Did you get any other awards?
A No.
Q Were those two awards you mentioned given to you as a result of your work in the WVHA in connection with the DEST enterprises?
A I have to assume that.
Q You forgot to tell the Tribunal that you were awarded the Totenkopfring, didn't you defendant?
A Yes. However, that is not a decoration.
Q Well, who gets the Totenkopfring, witness?
A The terms as such as to who received the ring are not known to me.
Q You don't know why you were awarded that ring, is that right?
AAccording to my recollection I believe every SS officer received that as a standing order of the time. I do not know the terms under which such a ring was issued.
Q Well, were you a member of the Totenkopfverbaende, defendant?
A No.
Q That was not a prerequisite for getting the Totenkopfring?
A No, indeed.
Q What did the ring have - a death head on it?
A Yes.
Q You knew that those were the troops that guarded the concentration camps, didn't you defendant?
A That has nothing to do with that, at least nothing to do with the ring.
Q But, be that as it may, you know that the Totenkopfverbaende guarded concentration camps, didn't you defendant?
A That is correct.
Q And you never were a member of a unit of the Totenkopfverbaende?
A No, I was not.
Q The Verfuegungstruppe?
A No. I was only a member of the Waffen-SS from 1940 onward.
Q You joined the Allgemeine-SS voluntarily, didn't you, witness?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And you joined the Waffen-SS also voluntarily, didn't you witness?
A I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q Well, did you make any efforts to try to get service in some branch of the Wehrmacht other than the SS?
A I was a member of the Wehrmacht. I already stated in direct examination that in 1940 I was sent up by conscription order and I received that conscription order whereupon I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q Did you try to get service in some other branch of the Wehrmacht? You were perfectly happy with the Waffen-SS, weren't you defendant?
A I did not do any military duty or military service in the Waffen-SS.
Q I say, did you try to get into any other branch of the Wehrmacht, yes or no?
A Later on I tried to get into the Luftwaffe but didn't succeed.
Q In 1940 you did not?
A Not in 1940.
Q Do you accept the responsibility for the operation of the DEST enterprise?
A I don't quite understand that question, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q I say, do you accept the responsibility for operation of the DEST enterprise?
A I was a co-business manager of DEST German Earth and Stone Works and in that capacity, which according to commercial law, namely according to G.m.b.H. I have to bear the responsibility for it.
Q Well, my question was directed more to your, shall we say moral responsibility, the legal question will be settled by this Tribunal, but I wanted some reaction from you personally to see if you are ready to accept the responsibility for the operation of the DEST enterprise.
A I simply didn't understand your question, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q I say, I just wish to know whether you personally from a moral point of view now accept the responsibility for the operation of the DEST enterprise?
A I was nothing but the co-business manager of that enterprise is all I can say.
Q Well, if you aren't responsible whom should we look to?
A I did not say that I was not responsible. I simply said I was co-business manager of the German Earth and Stone Works.
Q You don't know of anyone else.
A I am responsible just like any other business manager according to the German law.
Q You don't know of anybody else you would believe more responsible for the over all operation of the DEST enterprise than you yourself, witness?
A. Within the business management of the BEST, which, in the last few years, consisted of three business managers, the fields of tasks were distributed amongst individuals as described by me in my direct examination.
Q. That is just what I was getting at. Then you tell the Tribunal your responsibility should be limited to financial matters, is that right?
A. I dealt with the commercial field of task, the financial field of task and the legal field of task in the direction of the enterprises.
Q. Had nothing to do with the allocation of inmates to your enterprises, is that right?
A. The allocation of inmates according to the work of the enterprises was first of all with the business managers and then with the technical management. That, of course, does not mean that all three business managers on individual questions would also deal with labor allocation questions.
Q. Did you deal with labor allocation questions, did you or didn't you?
A. If it was necessary, yes, but not fundamentally.
Q. Was it necessary, did you in fact?
A. Yes, I did; that is correct.
Q. That is fine, Now, did you accept your responsibility for the W-I, Amt W-I, Chief of Amt W-I, is that right?
(There was an interruption due to a defect in the sound system.)
THE INTERPRETER: All right, sir.
Q. (By Mr. McHaney) As Chief of Amt W-I do you accept responsibility for the operation of that office?
A. I stated in the direct examination that Office W-I was a fictitious office, and it is identical with the main administration of the German Earth & Stone Works. It was no special office. All prerequisites were lacking for such an office.
Q. We will come back to that in a moment. Were the works managers of the individual plants appointed by you?
A. No, they were not selected by me alone. Only two business managers together could make a suggestion to Herr Pohl, and Herr Pohl was the one who had the last decision whether a person would become business manager or not, because the contract with the works manager had to be submitted for approval of the amount which was to be paid out to him as a salary.
Q. I can understand that Herr Pohl exercised some influence in these matters, but as a practical thing didn't you select and recommend the works managers?
A. Yes, I selected them and recommended them, yes, but I was not the one up to whom the decision was.
Q. And they were subordinated to you, weren't they?
A. You mean those that were subordinate to the business management, to the three business managers?
Q. Herr Mummenthey, weren't the business managers of the individual enterprises subordinated to you as Chief of Amt W and as chief business manager of the DEST?
A. They were subordinated to the three business managers.
Q. Were they SS members?
THE PRESIDENT: The managers, you mean the managers?
MR. McHANEY: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. McHaney) Were the plant managers SS members?
A. The works managers were civilian workers, and a few of them, during the war, were conscripted into the WaffenSS, and in part they were appointed Fachfuehrer. That is professional expert.
Q. Your answer is that for the most part they were members of the SS, is that right?
A. No.
Q. Suppose you name some who were not members of the SS. Was Walter a member of the SS in Mauthausen?
A. Yes, he was, but he was not a Fachfuehrer nor a professional expert.
Q. I didn't ask you whether he was a professional expert or Fachfuehrer or anything else. I asked you if he was a member of the SS, and he was, wasn't he?
A. Yes, he had been conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q. And how about Kahn at Neuengamme, was he a member of the SS?
A. He was also conscripted into the Waffen-SS.
Q. And suppose you tell the Tribunal several of them who were not members of the SS, Defendant? Let's spell their names too when you do it so we can check into it and see.
A. The works manager, Kaiser, from Oranienburg.
Q. What was his name?
A. Kaiser, and his name is just like the Kaiser, K-a-i-s-e-r.
Q. Who else?
A. The works manager of Berstedt, Linke, L-i-n-k-e; the works manager of Marburg, Wojtich, I shall spell that name, W-o-j-t-i-c-h; the works manager of Linz, Schraneck, S-c-h-r-a-n-e-c-k.
Q. Spell that again.
A. S-c-h-r-a-n-e-c-k.
Q. Those are all of them that were civilians?
A. Yes, quite so. The others originally were also civilians, and during the war they were conscripted.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, just one question. You said that you were one of three business managers of DEST?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The other two were Schondorf and Schwarz?
THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, yes.
Q. (By Mr. McHaney) Was Gerhard Maurer ever manager of DEST, Defendant?
A. No, he was not. Maurer, for a certain period of time, was business manager, according to my recollection, from 1939 to 1940.
Q. Business manager where?
A. Of the DEST in Berlin.
Q. Now, Schwarz, who testified here for you, was in fact the technical man for the granite works, wasn't he, Defendant, just as you stated in your own affidavit?
A. He was a so-called industrial merchant. That is to say, he was a merchant with technical knowledge who in the course of his commercial activity, he had acquired those things in that branch. However, by that he is not a technician. That does not necessarily mean he is a technician.
Q. Who was your technician for the granite works if Schwartz was not?
A. It was Herr Guttchen who in 1941 or 1942 resigned.
Q. And who was the technical man thereafter?