THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FICHT (For Defendant Klein): Your Honor, I would like to request that the Defendant Klein be excused this afternoon from this courtroom in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Klein will be excused.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, now I am coming to the last chapter of my presentation of evidence.
A May I mention two things before we begin with the last chapter? Judge Musmanne asked me yesterday about the procurement of tobacco, and I would like to make a detailed statement about that now. First of all the inmates repeatedly requested, just like all persons who are in confinement, that they would like to smoke. A second important reason, however, was that I had heard from the plant managers that a large number of inmates, in order to obtain tobacco, would exchange their food rations, in order to get tobacco. In order to prevent this we procured tobacco, to a very large extent, and we distributed it.
With respect to the question about the release of inmates, I want to say that this point was within our training program of skilled workers. As far as I can recall we made more than one hundred requests. First of all we tried it with the commandants through the plant managers. Since frequently we were unsuccessful in doing this I turned to the Office D-I. However, I must make the observation here that the commandants, and also the Office D-I, did not like to deal with these requests. They usually disapproved them, and they did not treat them in their positive sense. I then approached the RSHA directly, and I approached the exports there by going around the official channels. In a Prosecution document, I think it is NO-1553, Exhibit 69, the Office D-I particularly makes reference to this activity in which we engaged. In some cases I was personally - the people tried to hold me personally responsible for the behavior of an inmate after his release, and it was stated that I was responsible for the actions of the inmate, as, for example, the Witness Bickel has described.
I must state on the whole that I shall never forgot in my life the happy faces of the inmates when I was able to tell them they would be released. This compensated for much annoyance and much trouble I had had. This knowledge always made me carry out increased efforts to have releases carried out. Unfortunately I also had failures in that respect. I was only sorry that I was unable to carry out these releases to a larger extent, in having the inmates released who had worked with us for a long time and had become skilled now and had always obeyed the regulations with regard to the work. One reason for the RSHA may have been that especially during the war the release of inmates could only be carried out under some very special circumstances. From this point of view we must consider the facts when judging what was achieved. On the whole we must consider the particular situation at that time when we carried out this activity. What we did with regard to food, billets and accommodations for the inmates, what we were able to do for the inmates. When some outsider looks at it afterwards it my only seem that it was very little. However, we also have to consider that this work had to be carried out against overwhelming obstacles. We were ordered to employ inmates in our plants. However, we were not given the right to make the lives of those inmates so bearable as we would like to. The authority for that was with other agencies, and I had no decisive influence on these agencies.
In the course of war when I made representations to the commanders and to Office Group D, and when I protested to the inspector, I was frequently reproached with the fact when they told me , "Just look at the troops at the front, and look at the population in the bombed areas. You can't go too far with the demands which you are constantly making of us."
From the difficulties which arose from the organization of the WVHA we also had to deal with the difficulties caused by the war.
That made our attempts very difficulty. I have already mentioned that food and clothing we could only obtain when We ignored economic regulations, and therefore we carried out a civil offense, and we were lucky that we were not caught doing this.
The witness Bickel has confirmed here, and affidavits by other witnesses and other former collaborators which my defense counsel will submit will show my constant efforts in that field. If all that I have done did not have any value, then I don't know what else I could have done. I do believe that I have carried out efforts wherever I could. I did not spare my person. I neglected everything just in order to fulfill that task because it was close to my heart, and because I had a deep sympathy with these people who now happened to have been committed to this camp.
Your Honor, may it please the Tribunal, it has once been said in history, and I can repeat it here literally, "Here I stand, I could not act otherwise." That is the pure truth.
Q Well, Mr. Mummenthey, I can understand it why you summed up your point of view once more, and now I would like to come to Count IV of the indictment where in connection with your membership in the SS and your membership in the party and the resulting ideology of Anti-Semitism, here you are charged with crimes against humanity. I don't want to hear anything from you as it has been mentioned already many times in the course of this trial that you had Jewish acquaintances or friends, and that perhaps one of your ancestors happened to be Non-Aryan. Is it Correct that in the house of your parents the Jewish question did not play any part whatsoever? Is it true that you were educated along the lines of the Protestant religion wherein you considered the Jews to be human beings just like any other people who lived in Germany at the time, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q I then go on to ask you-
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Counsel, you said you would not discuss the fact that one of his ancestors was Non-Aryan. Well, by merely saying that you have only aroused curiosity, and we haven't heard about a Jewish brother-in-law for quite a long time, so it would be interesting to find out just whom he did have among his ancestors who was Jewish. I presume that is what you mean. As far as I am concerned, I am curious to know. One question, one answer, who was in his family tree that was Semitic?
Q (BY DR. FROESCHMANN) I shall comply with the question by the Tribunal and I am now asking you to answer with yes or no.
A No, I don't know anything about it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Oh.
Q (BY DR. FROESCHMANN) During the war did you hear any rumors to the effect that evacuations and deportations of Jews to the east were carried out?
A Yes, I heard that by way of rumors.
Q Did you participate in the excesses against the Jews in November, 1938?
A No. At the time I lived in Berlin not very far from the office. When I went to work in the morning I heard that these incidents had occurred during the night. They have already been mentioned here on several occasions. At noontime I went to Nuernbergerstrasse and there I saw the smashed-in windows.
Q Did Dr. Salpeter initiate any investigation at the time?
A Dr. Salpeter at the time was the chief of the house, and he determined whether any members of the agency had participated in these excesses. A record was taken on the subject, and I know that nobody from our office participated.
Q What attitude did you take with regard to the so-called Party Program and the Nuernberg Laws, and the literature about the Jews?
A I only had to occupy myself with these things as far as it was necessary to pass the various examinations when questions were asked about that.
Q As far as you know the aims of the SS from the General-SS, did they contain any points in the Program about the extermination of Jews?
A No.
Q Were you a fanatical National Socialist?
A I always considered myself to be a good German, but I never considered myself to be a fanatical National Socialist. I don't think that others can say that about me.
Q Mr. Mummenthey, the prosecution has stated the program against the Jews from three points of view. First of all, according to the activities of the Einsatzgruppe, the SD; two, according to the question of deportation for purposes of extermination; and three, according to the utilization of Jewish labor. What did you have to do with point one, the Einsatzgruppe, the action of the SD, and deportation into extermination camps?
A I had nothing to do with it.
Q Did you hear anything about the committing of Jews into camps so that they could be exterminated?
A No.
Q Herr Mummenthey, I now remind you that according to the opinion of your witness Bickel every man in Germany had knowledge of the fact or if he didn't know anything that he didn't want to know anything about it.
He just closed his ears. Did you consider this opinion of Bickel's to be absolutely objective and correct, or did you consider it to be his personal opinion?
A I think that was strictly his personal opinion. I know from discussions with several inmates after the collapse that the inmates in the camps apparently had excellent receivers and transmitters. And from this, perhaps, in many cases they were by far better informed than the persons who lived outside the camp. After all, outside the camp a lot of spying was being done, and I know that I personally was being watched by the SD. I know that from a matter which pertained to my colleague Schwarz. He made statements on one occasion, and I had to help him in an investigation; and then I heard all of us were being watched by the so-called V-Men. I think this stands for"Vertrauensmaenner", the informers. We had SD in our own ranks.
Q Was it really correct that the mass of the German people did not have any knowledge of these horrible atrocities in the concentration camp?
A No, the mass did not know anything about it. Just how far the knowledge goes, I can't say. That depends on the individual case.
Q Did you have any knowledge of it?
A No.
Q In spite of your seeming connection with concentration camps and your proximity there?
A I have already stated that the commanders and the staff considered me to be their enemy, and they certainly wouldn't convey any secrets to such a person.
Q In the course of this trial the words "Action Reinhardt" and "Reinhardt Fund" has been used repeatedly. And in particular the DEST has been connected insofar as the loan from the Gold Discount Bank was granted. And all these loans were to have come from the Reinhardt Fund through the knowledge of DEST.
What do you know about that?
A Two loans by the German Gold Discount Bank were granted in 1939 and 1941. As I have seen from an affidavit of the prosecution, the repayments were made in 1942, I think.
Q Did you still maintain the testimony -
THE PRESIDENT: Was there an error in the translation?
DR. PRACHT (Assistant to defense counsel Dr. Froeschmann): Your Honor, in the turning in of the gold, there was a mistake. It should be turning in of the gold rather than repayment.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the mistake?
DR. PRACHT: In the translation he said repayment, it should actually be the turning in.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Do you still maintain your testimony, or do you want to change it in anyway, or do you want to limit it to any extent? I am now referring to the statement regarding the utilization of labor in DEST.
A It only came to my knowledge in the office of Auschwitz that some female Jewish inmates were employed in Herzogenbusch in the diamond cutting plant. Jews were to work the machines if the machines had ever been installed.
Q Herr Mummenthey, just how did it happen that you became a member of the SS and the Party?
A When in 1934 I was the Court Referendar at the district court, my chief at the time told me that if I was not a member of the Party, then at least I should be a member of one of its organizations. After all, what should he put down in my personal file with regard to my political activity. He suggested that I should enter the SS for the reason the he was in charge of the Reiter Troop there, and the members of this troop were composed of the Riding Club which had existed there before on a provincial level. I agreed with this suggestion. What I heard about the aims of the SS afterwards did not cause me to be sorry about having made that agreement.
The people whom I met in the course of the next few years for a large part were idealists, and they were exemplary in their attitude. When I went to Munich in 1938 to the Administrative Office, I was an SS-Unterscharfuehrer in the Reiter SS. I remained in the Reiter Sturm at Leipzig where I was active for the district court at the time.
Q How was it that you joined the SS-Verfuegungstruppe?
AAfter some time had passed in Munich, Dr. Salpeter asked me whether I would like to enter the SS Reiter-Sturm until I became 45 years of age. I turned this down because it did not agree with my aims which I pursued in my profession. Then Dr. Salpeter transferred me from the Reiter-Sturm at Leipzig to the SS at Munich. He furthermore saw to it that my rank in the General SS was assimilated to the rank which was held by an assessor in the Wehrmacht. Thus it happened that in the course of time, on the 20th of April 1939 I became a Hauptsturmfuehrer, and then in 1940 I became Sturmbannfuehrer.
Q And now you had been transferred into the SS Special Duty Squads, the Verfuegungstruppe?
A No, I did not enter the SS Special Duty Squads, but I was in the General SS. The members of the SS with whom I had come into contact since 1939 were for the most part lawyers. This condition did not change when I came to DEST. Furthermore, this enterprise at the time had mainly civilian employees. We had to deal with innumerable private firms, and actually I was not moving around in the so-called SS Circle, and I was there much less than any other member of the WUHA. The DEST did not deal with SS matters for the most part, but dealt with industrial and economic matters. What I saw and heard about the Waffen SS did not cause me to consider it to be a criminal organization. I talked with a large number of members of the German Wehrmacht, and all of them talked very respectfully about the Waffen-SS. My own brother was with the Wehrmacht during the war. With his unit he was stationed next to units of the Waffen-SS for some time.
Despite the fact that he was critical of the Waffen-SS, he never told me anything which would lead me to assume that the Waffen-SS had a criminal character. In the year of 1940, since I had served with the Wehrmacht, I received an order to report to a Rifle Battalion, and I received that from the Army Corps Area, Berlin-Wilmersdorf.
I submitted this order to report for military service to Dr. Salpeter, and he told me that this was completely out of the question. He told me that a different settlement would be reached, and then he saw to it that I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS. At the same time I was put on detached service in order to work for the DEST. The rank which I held in the Waffen-SS was that of an SS-private. Later on in the Waffen-SS, we had, I know, the institution the S-Fuehrers, the Special Fuehrers who were experts in their particular fields. I then became a Hauptsturmfuehrer. Then I became a Sturmbannfuehrer-F, the designation of specialist. The "F" indicated that this particular person worked in a special field. On the 9th of November 1943, I was terminated as a Sturmbannfuehrer-F, and I was appointed an Obersturmbannfuehrer in the Reserve of the Waffen-SS. At that time, the action was explained to me to mean that a promotion to Obersturmbannfuehrer-F was not possible according to the regulations prevailing, and therefore this method was choosen.
In the Waffen-SS I did not receive basic training, and I did not participate in any Officer's Candidate Training.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
In my opinion, my conscription into the Waffen-SS was to serve the following purposes. One, persons who worked in the economic field were not to be subjected to the jurisdiction of the SS; two, these people were to be declared indespensable in this way. That is to say, this was to prevent their being conscripted by any other military agencies. Three, this measure served the purpose in order to take the possibility away from these persons to give notice that they wanted to discontinue their work.
Q. Witness, I would like to ask you a few questions very briefly which result from the verdict of the I.M.T. They contained the criteria from which the I.M.T. has declared the SS to be a criminal organization.
I now want to ask you, did you have any knowledge of the fact that units of the SS were active participants in the steps which led the aggressive war?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the fact that in the occupation of the Sudetenland, and when Bohemia, Moravia and Memel were occupied, that these were aggressive acts?
A. No; we weren't told about that at the time.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the free corps of Henlein as the National German Agency?
A. No, I didn't have any knowledge of that.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the fact that the Waffen-SS participated in the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity and in particular the shooting of unarmed prisoners of war, and that this was a general custom in some of the Waffen-SS divisions?
A. Only after the collapse did I hear that something like this is supposed to have happened.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the fact that units of the SS were ordered to carry out plans of Germanization in the Occupied Territories, that they carried out the deportation of Jews and other foreign nationals, and that they participated in the generally practiced murder and mal-treatment of civilian persons in the Occupied Territories?
A. I did not hear anything about that at all at the time.
Q. I have already stated before that you were in a certain local connection to the concentration camps, and now in the activity of the concentration camps, their commanders and their guards, you did see these things at the time as a criminal system?
A. I did not consider that to be a criminal system. The commandants with whom I talked in the course of time, with the exception of commanders who were relieved, made a very correct impression on me, and they also acted quite correctly. What I have seen and heard could not bring me to believe that behind all this a criminal system prevailed. I had to make any observations also under the point of view of the conditions caused by the war. After all, here we had deficiencies, that I was dealing with individual cases here, and that also was shown by the official gazettes of the notifications of the SS courts. At the same time, in this literature it was emphasized how severe the sentences were because any actions against the basic principles of the SS rule for cleanliness and discipline would be extremely severely punished. Now, I ask myself, in view of such proclamations, how could anybody gain the thought that the SS was a criminal organization. Didn't we actually have to assume the contrary from all these statements, if any organization in its own ranks carries out such an extremely severe justice in its own ranks?
Q. Did you hear anything about the things which took place in the East, for example, in Treblinka, Auschwitz, Lublin, in order to mention some of the names? Did you hear anything at all about that during the war?
A. No, I don't know Lublin at all.
Q. But you were a member of the SS, and, after all, you had the possibility to look into the organization of the SS, and to look into the character of the most important men in the SS.
A. The persons with whom I had official contact at all were my superiors or they were my equals. In these people I have noticed several traits that were good, and also some bad traits.
Q. How was it with regard to your immediate superior, Pohl?
A. I consider my former superior Pohl to be a man who, after all discussions and conversations, gave me every reason to consider him a person who did his duty, and held a very high office in the State.
Q. Did you ever talk to Himmler?
A. As far as I can recall, I talked to Himmler on two occasions; once in 1943 or '44 when he visited the brick plant at Oranienburg; and then in 1944 at St. Eigen, near Salzburg. Here he had his field headquarters, and at the time we were dealing with a large shipment of porcelain goods for the requirements of the troops and for the Obersalzberg. In both cases I could not find anything in him which would have raised my suspicions. Perhaps the time was much too short for me to do that.
Q. Is it correct that Pohl, in the year 1942, on one occasion, made a speech before SS officers of the WVHA, and here he mentioned the execution of an SS officer Sauerzweig because of corruption?
A. I can remember that quite clearly. Pohl at the time used very sharp words. He said, among other things, "Whoever besmudges the name of the SS will be dealt with ruthlessly."
Q. In the course of the trial, Herr Hummenthey, an affidavit of Dr. Morgen has been submitted. At the time he was ordered to investigate the happenings at Lublin. Do you recall that affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you draw any conclusions of your own from that affidavit?
A. I, myself, do not know Dr. Morgen, and I never had anything to do with him. If I remember correctly, here he denounces the entire system of the concentration camps; and I never heard anything about his condemnation of the system of the concentration camps.
Q. Do you recall that Morgen said that it was not possible for him either to discover and uncover the very last secrets?
A. Yes, I can recall that.
Q. Although he personally had a special assignment, and he had special authority, and he was even able to arrest these people--doesn't this show a certain conclusion which you can use in your favor before this Tribunal?
A. I can ask myself if a man who was equipped with such authority could not uncover all the secrets--how should it be possible for any other person who did not have that special authority.
Q. I shall go on to ask you now, with regard to the verdict of the I.M.T. at Nurnberg, did you participate in any plans which the I.M.T. has described as the basis of the verdict for declaring the SS a criminal organization? In particular, did you participate in the persecution and extermination of the Jews--yes or no.
A. No.
Q. Did you participate in atrocities or murders in the concentration camps?
A. No.
Q. Did you participate in excesses which were committed in the administration of Occupied Territories?
A. No.
Q. Did you participate in the execution of the forced-labor program? And in the execution of the slave labor program, and the mal-treatment and murder of inmates and prisoners of war?
A. No.
Q. Did you have anything to do with that officially, and did you ever participate in that personally?
A. I had nothing to do with that personally, and I did Not participate in that.
Q. Were you ever active in Office Group D in the RSHA, or in the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, and did you have any access to the material there?
A. No, I never had that.
Q. What did you know about that?
A. I didn't know anything at all about these things.
Q. Did you hear anything about the rumors which the witness Bickel has mentioned here, the rumors which went through Germany?
A. During the war, in the course of time, so many rumors circulated that we were unable to determine just what was true and what was not true. One rumor came after the other.
Q. Did you listen to foreign broadcasts?
A. No, I couldn't do that. I lived at a place where other persons could also have heard that.
Q. You could recall that the witness Bickel stated that he was able to be completely informed about all the conditions by listening to foreign broadcasts?
A. I have already stated that I heard this from inmates after the collapse, and these inmates told me that they had good receiving facilities.
Q. It seems to me that a person had to go into a concentration camp in order to find out what news came from abroad...
A. Yes, that may perhaps be the case.
Q. And now, my last questions. If, in any form, you had obtained knowledge of all these things which I have just put to you, just what steps could you have taken, and what steps should you have taken?
A. In April, 1939, I entered the DEST. In the course of 1939 and 1940 I became acquainted with the various enterprises. When the war broke out Pohl stated in a speech that he would bring any person into a concentration camp who opposed his will and his orders in any form, and who volunteered for front-line duty. He alone wanted to assign these people for duty. In 1940 I was conscripted into the Waffen-SS, and I couldn't turn in any case to a civil court. I couldn't object to my contract to the DEST. After all, then I would have been submitted to a procedure before an SS court.
Q But even if you did recognize the criminal character of the SS in any way, of what possibilities could you have availed yourself?
A I am asking myself if I could have turned to any government agency in Germany, for instance, the Prosecutor or the Chief Prosecutor or the Ministry of Justice. I don't know to whom I could have turned. I actually do hot know anybody to whom I could have turned in that matter in order to have any success.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, in concluding your presentation of evidence, do you want to make any statement?
A I would like to say the following: I belonged to the generation of Germans, who, during their entire life, have never known any stability and normal conditions. In the midst of feverish events we had no breathing space. We had the German Empire collapsing, and the failure of a revolution, a weak republic, inflation, and the millions of unemployed. These were the experiences which lead to a very deep disappointment to all the persons living in that period and with that were also prepared to follow a man who promised to change all the conditions and to improve them. And he led the entire nation into such a terrible disaster. After the collapse, a phrase was coined and here it was said that a giant amount of unlimited confidence of an entire people was senselessly wasted within a few years. For myself and my collaborators I would like to say that after the collapse we felt what is expressed by Marshall Montgomery in the "Maid of Orleans": "Wasn't the industrious life which we have lead worth more than to fall victim to deception?"
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination by defense counsel?
BY DR. BELZER (Attorney for defendant Karl Sommer):
Q Witness, you met the defendant Karl Sommer in the DEST as a civilian employed?
A Yes.
Q That was in the time from 1941 until 1942, in the course of that year, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Then the defendant Sommer was transferred from your office and he was transferred to Office D-II. Can you tell the Tribunal anything about your personal observations with regard to how far Defendant Karl Sommer in Office D-II, in particular, here I am thinking of the question of whether Sommer was the Deputy Chief of Office D-II?
A On several occasions I talked to Sommer at that time. My two colleagues, Schondorff and Schwarz, talked to him likewise. I can recall that whenever I required a decision from him, he used to tell me "I would like to do it, but first I have to talk the matter over with Maurer, because he has to make a decision there. If necessary I shall contact Pohl." From this I had to assume that he did not have any right to make his own decisions within the scope of Office D-II.
Q In the time from May, 1942, until the collapse, was there any occasion on which the defendant Karl Sommer, even if only on a temporary basis, had been appointed the labor allocation officer in the concentration camp Auschwitz?
A No, I didn't hear anything about that.
DR. BELZER: Your Honor, I have no further questions.
BY DR. MAAS (Attorney for the defendant Hohberg):
Q Witness, did Dr. Hohberg audit the DEST and what were the results of that examination?
A Dr. Hohberg, as an auditor, audited the DEST in the years 1940 and 1941. That was at a time when Dr. Salpeter was still with us.
Q What were the results of this examination? What I mean to say is, did Dr. Hohberg issue the final certificate or did he refuse it?
AAs far as I can recall, he did not issue the certificate, because Dr. Salpeter and he corresponded and had several discussions about the matter.
Q Do you know whether, after the time of Hohberg, a certificate was issued for this back period?
AAs far as I can recall, it was issued by Herr Dr. Vierlich. I believe he was an auditor from Vienna.
Q Was Dr. Hohberg present when conferences took place about the financing of the new plants of the DEST at Dessau, Neuengamme, or Ausschwitz?
A No, not in the cases which you have mentioned.
Q I am now coming to another point. In the course of this trial several witnesses have claimed that Pohl had a supervision about his economic enterprises and that this was done, in the words of the witnesses, as part of this official duties. As far as the W-sector is concerned, was there any official supervision at all aside from the authority which was given to him by commercial law?
A The matter was unclear three years ago and in the course of time it has not become any clearer, and, in this trial, I believe, it has become completely confused. I only looked at the whole matter from the aspect of commercial law and economics.
Q Would it have been possible, according to German law, that Pohl could be the sole partner and the business manager of the DWB and besides that could he exercise any official supervision in a certain way. He would have had to supervise himself in that matter.
A In my opinion, the position of a business manager excludes any supervision. After all, he couldn't supervise himself.
Q And now I am coming to my final question. Can you tell me just what reputation Hohberg had in political matters; what reputation did he enjoy with the SS officers in the WVHA?
A In general, he was considered to be an outsider. He was not a member of the SS and he was considered to maintain a skeptical attitude toward the SS and in this he was considered by some as unreliable.
Q Do you know whether, for this reason, he was subjected to any hostility?
AAfter he left the office in 1943, I heard about that.
Q Can you give us any details about that? Can you tell us what you heard?
A I can't recall that. I can only inform you of the general picture.
DR. MAAS: Thank you. I have no further questions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was Hohberg's position in Staff W? Say that again.
THE WITNESS: Dr. Hohberg, first of all, was an auditor, and, second, he was the economic consultant of Pohl. He had the title Chief of Staff W - in my opinion, he had that title in a similar sense as we had the terms "Office Chief W-I," and so on.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't get the date when you joined the National Socialist Party?
THE WITNESS: Through my membership in the General SS in 1938, as far as I can recall, I was taken over into the party automatically.
DR. FICHT (Attorney for defendant Klein): Your Honor, I only have one particular question.
BY DR. FICHT:
Q Witness, do you know that Pohl in 1943 or 1944 carried out a ruthless simplification of the administration and here he did not consider formal administrative regulations at all?
A I can recall something similar and it was called the so-called "Chief Order." These "Chief Orders" would come very frequently from Pohl in that field.
DR. FICHT: Thank you. I have no further questions.
DR. KLINERT (Attorney for the defendants Yolk and Bobermin):
Q Witness, I have several questions to ask of you and they refer to the defendant Volk. Was Dr. Yolk ever Chief of Staff W or Chief W?
A I cannot recall ever having heard that he held that position.
Q Was Dr. Volk appointed the official deputy of the Chief of Staff W or Chief W?
A I did not hear anything about that either.
Q Did Dr. Volk as the Director of the Legal Department of Staff W, have any authority to give you orders in your capacity as Chief of Office W-I?
A No, we only received orders from Pohl.
Q As Director of the Legal Department of Staff W did Dr. Volk have any authority to issue orders to the Legal Department of the DEST?
A No, after all, the Legal Department was part of the enterprise and within the enterprise it was subordinated to me.
Q Was Dr. Volk ever employed with the DEST?
A No.
Q Do you know who purchased the brick works at Stutthof and the estate near Walterhof?
A The purchase was carried out, as far as I can recall, by the German Reich. It was represented in this case by the WVHA office A-III.
Q And who then administered the brick works?
A The brick works were administered by the DEST and they were also leased by DEST.
Q Did Dr. Volk have anything to do with this?
A Not as far as I can recall. The negotiations about that were carried out between the DEST and the legal office, Office A-III.
Q Who actually took case of the affiliation of the Public Utilities House and Read Estate, G.m.b.H. before Volk?
A That was handled by Dr. Salpeter.
Q Do you know that at that time the enterprise also purchased properties which had formerly been owed by the Jews?
A Yes.
Q Who took care of the negotiations with regard to purchasing these properties?
AAs far as I can recall, Pohl or Dr. Salpeter appointed Herr Kuehler, a civilian employee to that task.
Q And now another question which refers to Defendant Bobermin. In the letter of the Chief of Office A-III of the 8th of May, 1940, to the Chief of the Main Office, Administration and Economy, a settlement is provided with regard to deputizing for the office chief. Here we are dealing with a letter which has been presented by the prosecution, as Document NO-1045, Exhibit 23, and it is contained in Document Book II on page 41 of the German text and page 26 of the English text.
A I have found it.
Q In this letter the following is stated in the beginning: "As my deputy, I first of all appoint SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Hummenthey, and SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Bobermin". What settlement was to be reached here with respect to the deputizing for the Office Chief?
A Dr. Salpeter had stated expressly that this deputizing was only to refer to myself to the field of the DEST Office A-III/1, and to Dr. Bobermin, in the field of Office A-III/4. That was the trusteeship and later on the Eastern German Construction, G.m.b.H.
Q If I have understood you correctly, then neither you nor Dr. Bobermin were to deputize for the entire field of task for the Office Chief?
A Only for the fields which I have just mentioned.
Q And the same thing applies to the Defendant Bobermin?
A Yes.
DR. KLINERT: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other examination by defense counsel?
BY DR. MUELLER-THORGOW (Attorney for Defendant Georg Loerner):
Q Witness, you knew that the defendant Georg Loerner was the Deputy Chief of Office W?
A Yes.
Q Did you, or did your office ever receive any orders from Georg Loerner in this capacity?