Q What about concentration camps other than the small labor camps?
A I didn't hear anything about the fact that plant managers lived in the camps themselves. I know, for example, that the plant managers if they were civilian employees, had to wear a special insignia to enter the plants so they could be recognized.
Q Well, your testimony is then that you do not know of any plant manager having made an inspection of the living conditions of the inmates working for DEST in the concentration camps themselves?
A I did not hear about that as far as the big concentration camps were concerned.
Q Now, in the labor camps which the plant managers and yourself inspected, were you satisfied with the conditions which you found there? Did you find them to be adequate?
A I can say that with a good conscience, yes.
Q And what was the last inspection you made of such labor camps?
A That was at Neurohlau.
Q When?
A In 1945, in the Spring.
Q And you found things in good shape there?
A Mr. Prosecutor, may I point out something in this connection. In the last days of its existence an artillery unit was placed in the camp of Neurohlau and I can recall the camp commandant and his adjutant went to see the Board of Directors of Bohemia and. I happened to be present. After inspecting the camp he stated that by labor or concentration camp he thought of something different. Such mess accommodations and billets as he had seen at Neurohlau could hardly he found in any troop unit, therefore, he would use the camp for his staff and his men as the command post.
Q Not necessary to give such a long answer as that. You found the conditions satisfactory and good in the labor camp you visited?
A Yes.
Q Now, of course, the plant managers and yourself had an opportunity of speaking to the inmates who were working for DEST, did they not?
AActually it was forbidden to talk to inmates. In the first years of the war it had not been permitted to do that. After all we had to sign a memorandum containing about nine points. According to this we were not allowed to talk to inmates with the exception of about professional matters. We were not allowed to establish contact for the inmate with the outside world. And the final point was whoever violates one of these would have to count on the fact that he himself would be brought into the concentration camp. A large number of civilian workers and employees were brought into the concentration camp because they violated the regulations contained in the memorandum.
Q Well, did you submit yourself to this regulation?
A I had to do that.
Q You complied with it?
A I did not comply with it any more during the last years. If I was able to violate it without other persons observing I did so.
Q What do you mean by the last years? When did you start violating it?
A In 1943 and 1944, above all 1944 at Oranienburg.
Q Well, did you ask inmates about the food they were receiving in the camp, about their billets, and about hygiene facilities?
A I asked the inmates whether they had any complaints at all.
Q What did they say?
A In any case they did not voice any complaints. They only stated they had requests. These requests referred to various things. They always requested they be allowed additional tobacco, and would like to receive more newspapers.
Q Well, witness, it seems to me that the nub of your testimony is that because of the various restrictions placed upon you and upon your plant managers it was impossible for you to gain any information about the food which was given to the inmates at their morning and evening meals, about the billeting facilities, about the hygiene conditions, about their treatment within the camp, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Weren't you curious to find out the life and conditions of your slave laborers during the time they were not in your plants?
A That already becomes evident from the fact that in all cases where it was possible for me I would look at the accommodations of our employees.
Q But you never looked at the accommodation of your employees except in the small labor camps, isn't that true?
A The detachment leaders of the small camps stated that in the big camps the inmates had the same accommodations. The commandant also told me the same story.
Q Well, were you willing to rely on what the camp commander and the labor detachment leaders told you? You were satisfied with their explanations about the labor conditions.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A That had to be sufficient for me at the time. After all I could not interfere in their field of competence. I already interfered in other fields of work more than it was good for me, and as a result of this I had constantly difficulties.
Q Now, Defendant, if you were really interested in finding out what the conditions were within the camp with respect to the inmates that you were using to work in your plant, is there any reason you couldn't have gone to the Defendant Pohl and said, "I would like to inspect these concentration camps; I want to satisfy myself that my workers are being properly treated?"
A I have already stated before that I did visit the small labor camps. I also visited Oranienburg, and that actually was a bigger camp, and therefore there was no reason for me to inspect all the camps.
Q Your answer is you didn't care to inspect the other camps, the big ones. It was not that you couldn't have done it if you wished to, was it?
AAfter all there was no reason for me to have any suspicion in that matter at all.
Q You testified that the hours of work here - did not exceed nine to ten hours per day, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct according to my recollection.
Q How many days a week did they work?
A Generally they would only work during the week days. Work on Sundays, as far as I can recall, only referred to exceptional cases, and the people who worked on Sundays would receive a particular day off during the week.
Q In other words, they normally worked from Monday through Saturday, and sometimes on Sunday?
A They would work until Saturday noon. In an industrial plant there were certain departments which have to work seven days a week. They have to work constantly, and that is the case in every industrial enterprise. The persons who work on a Sunday will receive a day off during the week.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q In other words, an inmate worked five and a half days a week, is that right?
A Five and a half days; yes.
Q Did you receive any information about mistreatment of inmates while they were working by labor commando leaders?
A I didn't receive any reports at all from the labor detachment leaders.
Q I didn't ask you whether you received reports from the labor detachment leaders; I said did you receive any reports that the labor detachment leaders mistreated inmates while they were working in DEST plants?
A The labor detachment leaders? I don't know whom you are referring to. The labor allocation leaders?
Q No, no, I am referring to the guards, the persons who guarded the inmates while they were working. Did you receive any reports that those guards mistreated the workers?
A I have already stated in the course of my direct examination that in the course of the years I heard on several occasions that guards, and in particular the capos, had committed excesses toward the inmates. The plant manager intervened directly, and I myself made representations to the commanders about that.
Q Now, if I understood your testimony that was restricted to the years '39 and '40. Did you receive those complaints right on through the war?
A I can hardly recall a single case from '43 and 1944. I don't think that anything like that came to my attention during that time. It did not come to my attention in written reports at all, but in the course of our discussions it would be occasionally mentioned. However, I really can't say that this took place on a large scale and repeatedly.
Q Well, you did get some reports in '39, '40, '41, and '42?
A Yes, in these reports these matters were discussed.
Q And you say those reports might reflect those incidents of mistreatment?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A They were not reports about mistreatment, but in oral discussions these matters were mentioned.
Q I didn't understand your answer. Please repeat it.
A They were not contained in written reports, but this matter would be mentioned in oral discussions.
Q Witness, I don't care how you received the information. question was how frequently these incidents occurred in the years from '39 to '42?
A I have already stated that this happened on several occasions. I can't tell you the exact time for that. I can't tell you how many times it would happen.
Q Several occasions altogether or several times for each plant, or what?
A On the whole.
Q Several times on the whole?
A However, I cannot say altogether that this had happened so frequently that we can talk about constant mistreatment or something of that sort. That was not the case at all. The plant managers always stated that here we were dealing with individual excesses.
Q In other words, mistreatment was really not much of a problem. It was a very isolated occurrence, is that right?
A I am not talking about a big problem or a small problem, Mr. Prosecutor, but I have told you about the facts which came to my attention and where I took certain steps. I can only repeat these matters from the point of view as they came to my attention at that time in my field of work.
Q Now, you testified that you got heavy rations for inmates. That is a pretty general statement. When did you get these heavy rations, and for what plant did you get them? From whom did you get them?
A Well, we handled this matter in the following manner: I can recall, I believe it was already in 1941, that this additional ration was requested for the civilian population. The plant manager now listed all Court No. II, Case No. 4.the names of the inmates who could be considered for this additional food ration, and he passed on this list to the commandant's office, and the commandant's office then went to the competent economic office, and they requested the appropriate number of food ration cards.
I ordered the plant managers to be very generous in this respect and as far as possible when any plausible reason could be given at all that these inmates should be included in that particular list. I further told the plant managers that if any difficulties should arise from these false statements I would cover them at any time.
Q You mean you asked the plant managers to make false statements in order to obtain food, is that right?
A Well, he was to compile false statistics.
Q And what was the reason for making the false statements, to get more food?
A In order to get additional food for a large number of inmates.
Q Well, Defendant, it seems to me that that presupposes the fact that the inmates were not getting enough food before this, isn't that correct?
A One cannot put it in that general way. During the war every enterprise tried to get additional food for its employees. I know that from the numerous discussions which I had with other enterprises. They followed exactly the same procedure for their civilian employees, and also for their other workers. Every responsible plant considered that to be its duty.
Q Well, so while you wouldn't say that the food was insufficient prior to the time you had these false statistics filed, you were willing to personally run the risk of being charged with having obtained food under false pretenses and by fraud; you were willing to run the risk of being tried and convicted, even though you didn't regard the food before that time as being insufficient, is that correct?
A In this respect I shared the fate of numerous German enterprises and the responsible executives in these enterprises, who, during the war, acted in the same way. On behalf of their workers, they also Court No. II, Case No. 4.took this very great danger upon them.
Q From whom was this food actually obtained? You got your food stamps from the food ministry. Where did you get the food from itself?
A I have already stated, Mr. Prosecutor, that the camp administration would receive the coupons from the competent economic office. Just how the matter was handled in detail I don't know.
Q Now, Witness, we didn't quite get the fact straight about the reports on deaths among inmates working for DEST, and I ask you, did you ever receive a report of any kind stating that deaths had occurred among the inmates working for a DEST enterprise?
A I cannot recall ever having received such a report.
Q So your testimony is that you received no report of even a single death?
A I have already stated in my direct examination that accidents occurred in the plants. They would be brought to my knowledge.
Q Now how does - how do you reconcile that with just what you told me? You said you received no report of any death among any inmate working for DEST. Now you say you received a report of certain accidents. Was anybody killed in these accidents?
AAs far as I can recall we had a fatal accident at one time at Flossenbuerg. The person later on died of his injuries. I know that because the legal department worked on the accident insurance, etc. I also know such a case from Oranienburg. This happened in the year 1944.
Q These two deaths you remember having received a report on, is that correct?
A Yes, it was a plant accident with fatal results.
Q Other than those two deaths you received no reports, no information about deaths among the inmates working for DEST, is that right?
A I can't recall any additional ones.
Q Let's look briefly at Document NO-1049. That is in Book XVI, Exhibit 436. Did you find that, Witness?
A Yes, 436.
Q. And this is a report signed by yourself, dated 12 June 1942, giving a report on the DEST enterprises for the month of May, 1942, and it is addressed to Dr. Hohberg, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you turn to page 8 of the original of that report, and if the Tribunal please, that is page 46 of the translation.
Did you find the report on Flossenbuerg under the Roman numeral one on page 8 of the original of the report?
A. It is on page 9 of the German text, Flossenbuerg.
Q. And doesn't the first sentence where you mention supplementary rations which resulted in an increase of labor output, doesn't that statement indicate to you that you had some information about the supply of food to the inmates working for DEST? Weren't you able to observe that by increasing that food ration to some extent you were able to get more labor?
A. Well, that was the information which I received from the plant management.
Q. Didn't you receive the same information from all plant managements?
A. I can't recall that at the moment.
Q. Look under 2, Mauthausen, second paragraph.
A. Yes.
Q. Doesn't that indicate that you had rather detailed knowledge of the assignment of inmates to your enterprises? You mention here that the Gnoler Works are going to be given an additional number of inmates from the Auschwitz concentration camp next month. You had detailed knowledge about the allocation of inmates to your enterprises, didn't you defendant? You even knew from what camp they were coming, didn't you?
A. Whether every report gave so many details, I can't tell you anymore today.
In this case it was mentioned.
Q. Well, you were generally informed of the details of the assignment of inmates to the enterprises, weren't you, witness? You knew where there were shortages, and you made applications for more workers, and you knew from what camp they were coining from, didn't you?
A. In this case, yes. Whether this applied in all cases, I can't tell you anymore today.
Q. You don't know about that anymore. Don't you know that those inmates from Auschwitz were Jews?
A. They didn't have to be, they could have just as well be other inmates.
Q. You don't know the proportion of Jewish inmates in Auschwitz as compared to other inmates, do you, witness?
A. No.
Q. Now, will you note in the last paragraph under Mauthausen the reference to the training of Soviet PW's. Do I understand your testimony to be that this plan to train Soviet prisoners of war is the only instance of a proposed use of prisoners of war in the DEST enterprises that you know about?
A. This cites the case which I have already mentioned in my direct examination. I can't recall any other cases. Just to what extent the plan which has been described here was actually executed, I don't know.
Q. Well, your testimony is with respect -- now, just a minute. Your testimony is with respect to PW's that all you know is that they proposed or planned to use Russian prisoners of war in the training program in Mauthausen? You do not know in fact whether they did use prisoners of war in Mauthausen, is that correct?
A. I can't tell you anymore today just to what extent this pro gran was actually carried out.
Q. Now, witness, I gave you a clear statement of what I understand your testimony to be. Now, will you answer yes or no as to whether my statement was correct; and that was, that all you know about prisoners of war being used in DEST enterprises is that it was proposed to use Russian PW's in Mauthausen in the training program, but you don't know whether actually they were ever used?
A I cannot recall anymore today whether this plan was actually carried out.
Q. All right.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, answer the question that he asks you. You didn't answer it at all. We have to ask you about three times to get you to answer a question. It is just taking up too much time. Now, answer the question he asks you, then if you have any explanation to make, you have a right to do that; but first answer the question, and then make any explanation that you have.
A. It is described here that Soviet prisoners of war are to be used. Whether this was actually done or not, I don't know.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Do you know of any other -
THE PRESIDENT: Is that all you know about the use of Russian prisoners of war?
A. I cannot recall any other cases, Your Honor.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. And can you recall any other cases of the use of any prisoners of war, Russian or otherwise?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever request prisoners of war for use in the DEST enterprises?
A. Negotiations took place on one occasion with a prisoner of war camp about the procurement of prisoners of war.
However, as far as I can recall, this plan was never carried out.
Q. Well, you tried to get them, but you failed, is that it?
A. Yes. This plan was disapproved.
Q. And where were you going to use these prisoners of war?
A. In my opinion, they were to be used at Neurohlau.
Q. That was the lovely labor camp you were describing a little earlier. Turn to Roman 3 under Gross-Rosen in this report. You find in the second paragraph the statement about the 200 inmates who were in the Sick-Bay?
A. Yes.
Q. You got reports about illnesses among the inmates, didn't you, defendant?
A. I have already starred that when you asked me about that yesterday.
Q. Well, witness, all you told us about yesterday was the typhoid epidemic, and you told us that it existed in 4 or 5 camps. Now, you single out Gross-Rosen here and mentioned two hundred sick inmates. World you say that was part of the typhoid epidermic?
A. As far as I can recall at the time at Gross-Rosen there was a quarantine imposed because of a typhoid epidemic. I believe that this quarantine is mentioned in one of the prosecution's documents. It was in the beginning of 1942.
Q. Now, witness, will you turn to the last page of this report. I will ask you first what camp, concentration camp was close to your Margurg plant?
A. There was no concentration camp at all.
Q. Well, where did you get your inmates for use in your Marburg plant?
A. No inmates were employed at Marburg. We only had civilian workers there who had already worked in the enterprise before, and they were residing in the vicinity.
Q. On the last page, do you find -- that is on page 13 of the original -- you find the reference to the 25 French prisoners of war?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you forget about those?
A. These prisoners of war worked for Bohemia, and then later the labor office withdrew them. I didn't consider the employment of these prisoners of war to be incorrect because after all they were manufacturing porcelain goods here.
Q. You did employ Russian prisoners of war in the enterprises which you had under your control, isn't that right?
THE PRESIDENT: Russian prisoners of war, did you say?
MR. MC HANEY: Did he employ prisoners of war in the enterprises under his control.
A. The Soviet prisoners of war who are mentioned in the following paragraph, actually never arrived. I have already mentioned that the negotiations did not bear any results.
Q. Well, but you were employing 25 French prisoners of war, and they left and then you request 25 Soviet prisoners of war, didn't you?
A. 50 Russian prisoners of war were requested; however, they never arrived.
Q. Now, witness, you claim that you had roll calls eliminated, is that right?
A. In the course of the years we succeeded insofar as the number of roll calls was concerned, as as far as the time of the roll calls was concerned, we were able to restrict them. The roll calls which took place in the plants only lasted a very short time.
Q. How, witness, you testified very clearly yesterday, and I made a note of it that you succeeded in having the roll calls eliminated, abolished.
That is not true, is it?
A. I stated that the roll calls were limited and abolished.
Q. Well, what does "abolish" mean? That means "done away with", doesn't it?
A. Yes. Before that more roll calls took place, and then we had fewer of then.
Q. But you still had some roll calls?
A. Yes.
Q. And your witness Bickel testified that they had one in the morning, and one in the afternoon in the camp, and they had three during the day in the DEST enterprises. That is five altogether. You remember his testimony, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't dispute that that was correct, do you?
A. The roll calls which took place at the plant had lasted longer before, and they took place on more frequent occasions. We succeeded in limiting then or abolishing them. There were also plants in which they only had one roll call and that would be held at noontime in the plant.
A. Did you have to get permission from the concentration camp commander to visit your own plants?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Not from the concentration damp commander.
Q Well, from whom did you have to get permission to visit your own plants?
A I had a pass from the chief of Office Group D, and on this pass it stated that I was authorized to enter the plant.
Q So you could go into the plant at any time you wanted to? You had a permanent pass?
A Yes, for entering the plant premises.
Q And were your plants surrounded by barbed wire?
A Not in the first years of the war, but later on barbed wire was put around them, and this was done because we did not have sufficient guards. Before that, a chain of guards, so to speak, had surrounded the plant; and later on the barbed wire was substituted for the guards. These measures of security and guarding were not carried out by us but the construction management of the particular camp was in charge of that.
Q Did you have guards on towers surrounding these plants?
A I haven't quite understood your question.
Q I say, did you have guards on towers surrounding these plants?
A Guards? The barbed wire fence was interrupted by guard towers on various places, and guards would be stationed along these guard towers.
Q Now, you testified that you made as many as a hundred applications for the release of inmates working for the DEST, and that Gluecks threatened you about this, is that correct?
A More than a hundred, as far as I can recall.
Q Now, what did you know about the policy of DEST in refusing to release inmates who were working for DEST when the RSHA was ready to let them out?
A We never objected to any order of release by the RSHA, and we never took any influence on that; to the contrary, we were glad about every release.
Q Now, witness, I am sure you realize that in the exhibits of Court No. II, Case No. 4.this trial there are several letters from plant managers of DEST enterprises stating that certain inmates are not to be released because they are valuable workers.
You know about those, don't you?
A This document has already been discussed at various times here, and it refers to something quite different. Hereby we were only to get the opportunity so replacements being trained before the inmate were released so that the plant manager would be informed at an early period of time about the impending release. That was the entire sense of this document. We never kept any inmate in any form in our plant against the orders. We would have been unable to do that.
Q Well, you simply got in your say so before the order was issued; you delayed the issuing of the order; you said this man is valuable, "He is not to be released. In the meantime we may try to get a replacement." That is the sense of it, isn't it?
A No, not so, if I have understood the translation correctly. I stated that the plant manager was to be notified whenever a release was impending so that he could procure a replacement in time.
Q Your testimony is that in no case did DEST either refuse or prevent the release of an inmate, nor did they delay the release of an inmate, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Well, I will just simply call the Tribunal's attention to Document NO-1972, Prosecution Exhibit 429; it is on page 19 of Book 16, I think it is unnecessary to belabor the witness with the document.
Now, witness, in connection with your basic defense that you had no influence on billeting and food and clothing, and other such matters, concerning inmates--that that was the exclusive responsibility of the camp commanders--I will ask you if you didn't know that that was the situation when you took your job as co-manager of DEST in 1939?
A I only found out about these things in the course of time; when I entered that position, I did not know anything at all about these things.
Q Well, how long did it take you to find out, defendant? How long did it take you to find out that the concentration camp supplied Court No. II, Case No. 4.the guards for these inmates that were working in your plants?
How long did it take you to find out that the concentration camp furnished the food?
A In the course of the year 1939 I saw how the various authorities were distributed.
Q You testified that you didn't know that the penal companies worked in the DEST plants. Your manager knew about that, didn't he?
A I stated that I didn't hear anything at all about the penal company. I described the penal measures which did come to my knowledge, and I saw to it that they were abolished.
Q I didn't ask you that; I said your plant manager certainly knew that the penal company was working for DEST, didn't he?
A Whether and to what extent that was done, I don't know.
Q Well, let's suppose you were a plant manager, defendant. Would you, or would you now, have known who was working in the clay pit in Neuengamme?
A Naturally, yes.
Q Now, you testified that the Flossenbuerg concentration camp commander was transferred because he had been mistreating the inmates, and you had him taken care of. Do you know where that man was sent? Where was he transferred to?
AAs far as I can recall, he was sent to a combat unit.
Q What was his name?
A His name was Kuenstler.
Q Now, don't you know, as a matter of fact, that his personal records in the SS files reveal that he was transferred--not because he was mistreating anybody but because he was a drunkard? You know that, don't you, defendant? He was a drunkard, wasn't he?
AAs far as I can recall, various reasons accumulated which led to his transfer.
Q And you knew that one of them was transferred because he drank a lot, didn't you, defendant. He was a drunkard.
A I hard that, too, yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q And would it surprise you to know that his SS records show that the reason he was transferred was because he was a drunkard--not because he was mistreating the inmates?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know the exact reasons. I can only repeat here what I know from hearsay.
Q Now, you also testified that they removed the concentration camp commander and the administrative leader at Neuengamme on your suggestion. It seems to me that your witness Bickel testified that those men were transferred to other camps, isn't that right?
A I did not say that they had been transferred or that any other measures had been taken against them on my suggestion, but I pointed out that as a result of the incidents which I have described these persons were apparently transferred as a penal measure. The witness Bickel has described the incident here when Pohl went to Neuengamme. In connection with this, these transfers were carried out. Whether this was the only reason, I don't know.
Q Well, I understood-
A I, myself, did not have any influence on the transfer of a concentration camp commander. I could only point out various things which had come to my knowledge.
Q Well, I was under the mistaken impression apparently that you wanted the Tribunal to give you the benefit of having secured the transfer of these concentration camp commanders, but apparently that is not so.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, you called our attention to Exhibit 429, Document Book 16, page 19, as seeming to settle the question of whether or not the defendant had ever blocked the release of skilled workers.
MR. MC HANEY: I read it that way, yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: For the moment, I can't remember when he became Works Manager at DEST. What was the date?
MR. MC HANEY: The defendant?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
MR. MC HANEY: He became co-manager in 1939.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this document, of course, is not a letter from him; it is signed by Grimm.
MR. MC HANEY: That is quite true, Your Honor, and the witness identified Grimm as being at Mauthausen later on; apparently in 1941, he was in Buchenwald.
THE PRESIDENT: Buchenwald, yes.
MR. MC HANEY: The letter here is from the plant manager--well, no.
THE PRESIDENT: It is from Grimm-
MR. MC HANEY: It is from Grimm to the manager of the DWB--DAW and DEST.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, does it express the attitude of DEST?
MR. MC HANEY: Well, if the Tribunal please, I would find it rather difficult to believe that the leader of the Labor Assignment Office in Buchenwald would write to DEST and invite from them a report on valuable prisoners whose release should not be given unless there was some understanding between the parties that that was the policy.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, doesn't this letter advise the understanding just as the witness explained it? Reading the last paragraph, it says that: "skilled workers shall not be released until an able substitute has been provided, and there are no objections to an eventual release," which is exactly what the witness said.
MR. MC HANEY: No, Your Honor, I very clearly put the question to you as to whether the DEST delayed the release of the man, and I think the import of this letter is quite clear to the effect that DEST reported inmates who were valuable and who could not at that time be released.
THE PRESIDENT: Until a substitute was provided...
MR. MC HANEY: That is quite correct. And in any event, no valuable worker was released until a substitute was provided. Now, I say that permits of a delay in the release of an inmate, while you can't conclude that it prevented the eventual release; that is quite true. But my question to him was two-fold: whether it prevented release altogether, Court No. II, Case No. 4.and whether it delayed release.
