And he also told me that he had to report that to Pohl. Whereupon in a hard struggle which I had with him, I was able to convince him that it was not possible and why it was not possible. Finally, he saw it my way, although reluctantly.
THE PRESIDENT: That is a good place to stop, Dr. Froeschmann. We will recess until tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1630 hours, 5 August 1947 until 0930 hours, 6 August 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal II in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, Defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 6 August 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the defendant Volk is absent from Court on account of illness. The trial will proceed in his absence.
KARL MUMMENTEHY - Resumed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. I should like to remind you, witness, that you arc still under oath. Yesterday afternoon we last stopped with the subject of the working time for the inmates. I should like to ask you the following question now, witness. What orders existed on the part of the works managements and the central administration of the Dest with reference to the employment of inmates who could not work, sick inmates, that is?
A. The works managements had general instructions, and those instructions were repeatedly mentioned in works managers' conferences, stating that they were only to employ those inmates who could be used to a full extent, particularly those inmates who were not sick. The enterprises themselves had the greatest interest in employing and keeping only those people who had already gotten into the swing of the work and possibly in excusing these inmates, should they become sick, and in sending them back to the camp and possibly leaving them there.
In that respect they acted just like any other civilian enterprise in which, should a worker not be able to work, he would be sent home; and it would be seen that he became in a position to work again.
5630a
Q. Now, I would appreciate it if you would look to Exhibit 179, which is NO-2122, as contained in Document Book Number IV on page 146 of the English Document Book. This is the affidavit by Roeder. Roeder states that in Mauthausen after they had an epidemic of dysentery the sick inmates were again sent to the stone quarry to work there under the most difficult conditions. What do you have to say about that? Do you know anything about it?
A. I know nothing about it, and I think it absolutely impossible that such a thing would have happened. As I knew them, the works managers wouldn't conceivably have permitted such a thing to happen because our requirements for works managers were rather high. In the first years we immediately changed and released entirely those people who did not quite comply with the requirements which we had set. I believe I am in a position to say that those works managers who then remained with us behaved themselves in every respect in the way to be expected from a normal business manager or works manager.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, would you please tell us very briefly in this connection of what professional classes or groups these works managers were members, generally speaking? Were they works managers before; were they brick managers; or were they members of any higher professions?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A The works managers in general were all experts and most of them engineers. They were from this profession and had a good education and background in their profession.
Q Were they diplom engineers as they called them in Germany?
A Yes, we did have diplom engineers.
Q What were their age groups, witness?
A We had age groups between 35 and 60.
Q Therefore, men who already had a certain experience in life. Right?
A Yes, quite so.
Q In this connection, witness, I would like to ask you the following question. What do you have to say about the charges made to you by the Prosecution that it was an explicit policy of DEST to utilize inmates and get as much work as possible out of them while using as little food, clothing and billets as possible?
A That never was the policy of the enterprise nor could it have been the policy of the enterprise because this would have been in contradiction with every economic sense. We did not ask the inmate to do more for us than he actually could do and that was based on the various factors which have to be regarded in dealing with inmates. First of all they were not used to the jobs, not trained. Then we should not forget the factors which go with arrest. An inmate is always depressed. The fact that we did regard all those factors is shown by the fact that we employed more inmates in an enterprise of ours than would have been used in a civilian enterprise. I remember the three plants, Stuthoff, Heidhof, Peimannsfelde. Before inmates were employed there the personnel amounted to 150 workers in all three enterprises. From the moment we started using inmates there was a total of 400 employed. That shows that we did pay attention to the various points which I just discussed.
Q In order to remain with this example, witness, did you get more production out of those 400 inmates than of the 150 civilian workers?
A The same from a production point of view. The production re Court No. II, Case No. 4.mained approximately the same.
Q You wish to say, therefore, that the comparison between inmates and work produced by civilian workers was 1 to 3 or 1 to 4.
A Yes. The ratio was approximately that much but you can't make it a rule. You have to consider the various conditions with the enterprise. In this connection let me mention the fact that in our enterprise we still had a large number of civilian workers, at GrossRosen, this was of a disadvantage, namely, the civilian workers during the course of time simulated themselves to slower movements of the inmates. And, in the book by Dr. Kogon I read that he also noticed this fact.
Q You mean to say they worked slower rather than faster?
A That is the fact when inmates were used. Also, the Justice Administration noticed the same experience as I heard in conferences with the Justice Department people.
Q Let me go on now, Herr Mummenthey, there was a regulation according to which the employment of inmates as such in offices was forbidden. Now, we had a witness here on the stand who was an inmate who did work in an office and he was the witness Bickel. Herr Bickel did not have such a bad time in the concentration camp according to his own testimony. Was employment of inmates in offices forbidden in DEST or not?
A The Prosecution introduced Document NO-2318, Exhibit 12, and it can be seen from that document that employment of inmates in offices was forbidden as such and yet we did not comply with that regulation. We acted according to the principle to put as many inmates as possible to the working places which they knew and for which they had a practical background before being admitted to the concentration camp. That is why in the course of the years more and more inmates were sent to the plant administration, to offices, and to the camp administration.
Q Can you give us a few figures or names?
A I remember from Oranienburg that the construction office of Court No. II, Case No. 4.the plant was being directed by an inmate by the name of SchneiderHeinze.
The man in charge of the bookkeeping department, and collaborators in the bookkeeping department in Oranienburg were also inmates. The name of the man in charge was Quader. The business manager of the Oranienburg stone quarry plant was Herr Schulze and was also an inmate. Later on he was dismissed. However, I do have to point out that these inmates did participate in conferences of a commercial and technical nature. They never did show that they were inmates and at those conferences according to my recollection they contributed quite a bit.
THE PRESIDENT: There is some question about the translation "dis miss".
THE INTERPRETER: Release, your Honor, would be the same.
A (continued) I was stating before it is peculiar as may be seen today in this court room that really we all worked together with the task we had before us, and these inmates as far as I could see actually did work with willingness and with love. That could be seen by the fact that currently they brought suggestions to better conditions technically and organizationally. I did speak with the witness Quader on several occasions and I know from my colleague Schondorf that he had quite a few conferences with the man in charge of the construction office, Schneider-Heinze, and he asked him for suggestions once in awhile. It was extremely difficult for us that we couldn't actually succeed in getting these inmates released. We not only tried once but on several occasions to have inmates released. The RSHA. (Reich Security Main Office) refused again and again saying these inmates could not be released.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q How can you say, witness, that any man would love to be in prison and to work for months or years for nothing. Do you think any man would be happy to be imprisoned and work every day and get nothing for it?
A Your Honor, I can only tell you what I can remember about those things at the time. Just as I stated before that's the way it was.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
As far as the fact of employment was concerned we couldn't influence that in any way. We did every thing in that respect in order to facilitate employment and to make it easier for them and I do believe work within their professional circle did help them get over the depression which comes with imprisonment, I mean psychologically.
Q The Reich imprisoned these men but then they tried to make them happy in their imprisonment by giving them plenty of work?
A Your Honor, the work or the duty to work, according to my opinion, is a measure which was part of the imprisonment. The same has applied to the Justice Administration as far as inmates were concerned.
Q Well, it's a good deal like locking a man up in a prison cell and saying, "Here is a present, a book to read while you are in prison. We want you to enjoy it." That's about the same thing, isn't it?
A Your Honor, one should take into consideration the conditions of things in Germany at the time. Prior to 1933 in the Justice Administration the duty to work had been introduced as compulsory and then became a part of law.
Q That is fine. It is a very sensible plan. I was just thinking about the man that was brought in from Czechoslovakia or France or Denmark or Belgium or Holland. I wonder how he felt about the duty to work for Germany.
A Well, what the reasons were in detail, why the Gestapo - -
Q There wasn't any reason, any good reason. I just want to challenge your statement that the man who was taken away from his family in Denmark or Holland and made to work for the German Reich wasn't very happy about it.
A Your Honor, I will never try to say that all inmates were happy who were working in a concentration camp as part of their punishment.
Q Punished them because they were from Holland? Was that the reason they were being punished?
A Your Honor, I don't exactly say positively, but those who were Court No. II, Case No. 4.imprisoned due to security reasons, due to protective custody should -
Q Well, that's just one of those broad shoulder terms that covers a multitude of sins. Well, go ahead Dr. Froeschmann.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, may I start from the point where you left off, and I want to clarify all those mistakes which are going through all the courtrooms here, and I want to clear it up once forever.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, I would like to state at this point that I haven't spoken to you about the entire matter, but, witness, did you in your testimony so far remember those German inmates who were German citizens who were living in Germany and who had been committed to a concentration camp by the Gestapo?
A Yes.
Q The President of this Tribunal chooses a different way. The President starts from the point where Bickel left off, where he said that in 1944 people were being brought in from Denmark, Norway, then prior to that also from Belgium, Holland, and they were being brought in as workers to Germany. According to the President's opinion they were not doing voluntary work, but rather they were sent to a concentration camp, and it was from there that they were distributed and used for heavy work. I believe I understood the President correctly. Did you ever deal with such cases as the time? Did it become known to you at the time that Norwegians, Danes and Greeks, all these people of Europe, were in the concentration camps, and how was it, will you please explain it to us in detail so that we can actually and finally clarify that point?
A What the Gestapo or the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office, did at the time, I didn't know. I can only speak from the point of view of where I was at the time. That is the only way I can tell you about my recollection. Amongst the inmates in the plant at Oranienburg there were also foreigners. I stated that before. One could not actually see that, but one could hear it, if one would speak to the individual, by the fact that he spoke a different language. In such cases I asked them through the interpreter, exactly as I did it with the German inmates if I had the opportunity to do so and to speak with them, "Why are Court No. II, Case No. 4.you imprisoned?
Where did you come from? Are you married? Do you have any children?" etc. etc. I cannot recall one single case where one of those inmates who spoke a different language told me, "I am in this camp here without any reason." The answers which I received when I asked those questions were approximately, "I was a member of a terroristic group. I was a member of the resistance movement. I participated in an attempt at somebody's life with a bomb," and similar statements
Q Now, Herr Mummenthey, you will have to admit though that already since 1942 or 1943 possibly, numerous workers came from the occupied territories which had been occupied by Germany and were being sent to Germany. You will know that, won't you, Witness?
A Of course I did hear about it.
Q Where were these workers sent to? Do you know anything about it or don't you?
A I couldn't tell you for certain. I could only tell you what I read in the papers, or what I heard from individual firms with whom I had to work. These workers were sent to the individual firms under compulsion by the labor office, and they were either working in their small plants or in the plants themselves. For instance, you have the eastern workers who were wearing the insignia "East".
Q Could those workers who at the time were coming into Germany 100,000 at a time, could they move about freely in Germany?
AAs far as I could see, yes, because you could see them in the streets.
Q These foreigners, in 1942 or 1943 did they become more of a plague in Germany, where you could hear more foreign languages spoken in Germany than German in the streets? I mean in the restaurants, etc.
AAt the time we used the term of "the muddle of voices of Babylon". There were factories, for instance, the factory of the Messersmitt Works, where the whole plant was full of foreign workers.
Q And how can you explain the fact now, and I am talking now about '42 and '43 where you did have knowledge about it, where all of a Court No. II, Case No. 4.sudden certain groups out of these foreigners were committed to concentration camps.
Did you at the time have any misgivings about it? You understand my question, don't you, Witness? The foreign workers were working in the labor camps, and they were working outside of the labor camps in the plants, and all of a sudden on a beautiful morning the Belgian whose name was "XX" was transferred to a concentration camp. Why?
A I heard on one occasion that the Gestapo, the Secret State Police, was sending foreign workers who had left their working place repeatedly to a concentration camp, or rather they were not sent to concentration camps but to labor re-education camps for a period of at the utmost eight weeks. Then they again returned to the plant. Now many out of these workers who came from abroad under the framework of Sauckel's Action, how many of these people were sent to concentration camps, I don't know.
Q Herr Mummenthey, you are from Saxonia, aren't you, and you come from Aue, which is your place of birth, Aue, A-u-e. Is it correct that in the last few weeks you could receive reports through the papers that the Soviet Union was taking German citizens and interning them in camps and then transferring them to Russia based on a working contract? Do you know anything about it, that they were doing that under compulsion?
A I heard that too, but I know from both the papers and from my wife who wrote through my father-in-law that there was a compulsory labor camp at Rue where they were exploiting the uranium minerals, which was then being sent to Russia.
Q In order to make the atomic bomb?
A I don't know what they were doing it for, but it is to be assumed. The workers under this action are under compulsion to work, and that by their labor offices, and this is done by a control, or by virtue of a Control Council regulation. This Control Council regulation states that they are being used for reconstruction work.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q And therefore this is exactly the same as was being done in Germany originally when they were taking the workers from Belgium, Norway, Holland, etc., etc., by saying that they were coming to Germany by virtue of a working contract?
AApproximately, yes.
Q And then all of a sudden something happens which moves the Gestapo, or whatever you want to call the organization, to pick one of the workers out of the group because he didn't want to work or because he did sabotage, and then commit him to police custody and possibly later on transfer him to a concentration camp, is that correct?
A The commitment into a concentration camp by the Gestapo must have happened by virtue of something that happened. I can't explain it in any other way. There must have been some sort of an incident which was to be found either in the criminal field or possibly due to security reasons of a larger extent. Perhaps the person participated in terroristic measures.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I believe I have created the basis now in order to eliminate the misunderstanding with reference to any questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The only misunderstanding now, Dr. Froeschmann, is in your own mind.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Namely, your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Namely that the women and the children who were in Ravensbrueck were not there because they had committed any offense, and the trainloads of Jews from the east who never saw a labor camp but were shipped directly to a concentration camp and then sorted out, and the weak ones killed and the strong ones kept. That wasn't a labor camp, and that had nothing whatever to do with breaking regulations in a labor camp. Don't mislead yourself, Dr. Froeschmann. You are too smart a man.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, I am only dealing with the case of Defendant Mummenthey.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. FROESCHMANN: The DEST neither employed women or children. That is absolutely far from me, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: That is right.
DR. FROESCHMANN: And if you didn't know me you would possibly doubt it, but you know me. It is absolutely far from me to excuse any such crimes as described by your Honor at the present moment. To try to excuse such crimes I am far from that, but-
THE PRESIDENT: I am very willing to believe that, Dr. Froeschmann. I do believe it.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you, your Honor.
Q (By Dr. Froeschmann) Herr Mummenthey, I will now leave this chapter, and I shall turn to the last chapter which we are going to discuss now by discussing a question which was brought up by the Tribunal yesterday and touched upon by the Tribunal. That is the supervisory duty or duty of supervision which you had as the man in charge of the DEST. I would like to ask you, witness, on the occasion of your visits in the individual plants, did you ever convince yourself of the fact that the plant was working in an orderly manner and that there were no bad conditions in there, and I mean that from a human point of view?
A I visited the plants as often as I could, and on that occasion I visited the entire plant when I had enough time at my disposal. I believe that I did more in that respect than I could possibly do. I would like to point out that in order to visit the individual plants at regular intervals I could only travel at night. In 1943 and 1944 I actually spent one-third of the year on the train at night. There were 120 train trips, 60 official trips, approximately 60 visits of plants, therefore, or then we visited firms, enterprises with which we had to do. I couldn't possibly do it in any other way. In between we had the visits of collaborators, for instance, of my colleagues, Schondorf and Schwarz, who did approximately the same. Again and again we saw to it, or we tried to eliminate everything that could lead to bad conditions.
Q Witness, did you in this connection, and I do not want any Court No. II, Case No. 4.details about it, deal with the food and the clothing for the inmates?
A Yes, that problem was always in our program when we had discussions with the works managers.
Q.- Witness, you did hear during this trial, didn't you, about the work being carried out by the punitive details which was being carried out by order of the commandantur in individual enterprises. What did you know at the time about the punitive details or punitive commandos as they were called? If you did know anything about it, what did you do about it?
A.- The two terms "punitive detail" or "punitive commando" were not known to me. And in two cases, as I can recall, I did hear of punitive measures, and I would like to describe those two cases here, if you don't mind. It was approximately 1940 when the works manager of Flossenbuerg informed us that a small group of inmates -- I believe 10 or 12 of them -would be recruited and compiled and put to work in a swamp near the plant there and that they had to carry stones all day long, which was senseless. They had to walk around in circles and carry those heavy stones. The works manager, of course, was so angry about it that he informed us of it immediately. And in the absence of Dr. Salpeter at the time I submitted the case to Herr Pohl. He, of course, was just horrified as the other man was. I was having a conference with the inspector at the time who was Eicke -- or it could have been Gluecks -- by telephone, and he pointed out this madness to him. And he told him that this was to be stooped immediately. This was within a few days or a short period of time. That is the reason that the inmates no longer appeared in that swanp and the man in charge of the stone quarry, the SS leader, was transferred as a punishment. According to my recollection this was in 1940. The reaction on the part of the commander was that he now was antagonistic toward the works manager, who, as he said, got himself mixed up in those things. He tried to cause trouble for the manager for this, trouble of all kinds; and he particularly tried to charge him with favoritism of the inmates, and we had to transfer him to a different camp.
Q.- Herr Mummenthey, isn't it correct that the works manager Flossenbuerg, was being persecuted by the commander more and more while he was in Gross-Rosen and then later on in another concentration camp so that in the end you had to transfer him to St Georgen?
A.- I couldn't tell you for certain, but I can only assume that due to the incidents that it didn't take very long until the commander in Gross-Rosen started trouble against the works manager, so that after a little while he had to be transferred to St. Georgen. Again there were intrigues against him there, apparently upon suggestion by the commander of Flossenbuerg; so that finally in order to help this man find his peace and his rest, we sent him to Beneschau where he didn't have too much to do with the inmates.
Q.- You told us you have a second incident?
A.- Yes. The commander of Flossenbuerg was transferred as a punishment. I already discussed that before. Now, the second incident which I can remember was that the works manager of Mauthausen from St. Georgen informed me that the camp in order to transport stones for construction work and projects of the camp, was using a column of inmates. This column was called by the camp a transport column. The works manager stated that he was under the impression that this was a punitive measure or something similar to that. I also submitted that case to Herr Pohl after the works manager had protested repeatedly to the commander about this measure. The measure as such had nothing to do with our enterprise. That was senseless and it was nothing but madness. I know that Herr Pohl also took care of that matter because the transport columns were then eliminated, and the transportation of stones was carried out by vehicle. The vehicles for the most part were furnished by us, or then by the camp, or by some transportation firm near there. This matter was also looked upon by the commander as an interference in his plans; and as he was scolded for that reason, he tried to hold it against both myself and the works manager because we had reported it to Herr Pohl.
Q.- Did you notice any further incidents -- I mean, you yourself personally, did you ever hear of any incidents on the part of the works managers where such mistreatment of human beings took place?
A.- Personally; I never did notice it, even as often as I was in the plants, nor were we informed of it. The two incidents which I just mentioned were used in order to inform the works managers that they should never permit such punitive measures to be carried out within the plant area; and I remember that the works managers upon one of my questions or a question submitted by a colleague, answered that this would take place. The thing as described here by the witnesses cannot be understood by me. I must say that I can't understand them.
After 1944 there was such a thing which was called Klinker-S.K. in Oranienburg. I believe I would have heard about it somehow, and I am quite sure that I would have interferred there as I interferred every other time there was such a thing.
Q.- Witness, do you remember that the witness Bickel answered a question submitted to him by the Prosecution: Did you have any knowledge about the punitive detail in Nuengamme; and he wanted to answer that by saying yes and giving a long explanation; whereupon the prosecution interrupted him. Do you remember that? Anyway, I would like to ask you if you did know of a punitive detail or punitive measure in Neuengamme?
A.- I can tell you to the best of my conscience, no. The works manager never did tell me anything about it. My colleague Schondorf never did mention anything of the kind when he was there several time, and when I visited the camp, I never saw anything in that camp where punitive details or punitive measures were being carried out.
Q.- In all those cases where you heard of certain things which were going on and which were not correct according to your opinion and which were disregarding the principles of humanity toward the inmates, you interferred, did you, witness, by having conferences with the camp commanders and by reporting it to Pohl, didn't you?
A.- Yes, I can't express it any other way. All I can say is that whenever I heard something, I tried to eliminate it. I did my very best whatever was within my power not only to prevent it but to stop it entirely forever after. No matter how many disadvantages were connected with this -
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead and finish.
A.- Whenever I could do something about it, I reported them to Pohl.
Q.- You said you were not afraid to etc.
A.- Yes, I continued even though there were disadvantages. I reported those things to Pohl.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.- And when you reported them to Pohl, he was interested and sympathetic?
A.- Yes, Your Honor. I'd have to to say that whenever I submitted such a thing to Herr Pohl, he usually would slam his fist on the table and say, "what kind of a Sckweinerei is this". I can refer to this occurrence which was described by Bickel where Herr Pohl went straight to Neuengamme in order to have the administrative leader relieved there, and the commander also later on. He had been convinced himself about the conditions which were prevailing there.
Q.- And when he found the conditions were bad, he removed the works leader and the commander at Neuengamme?
A.- The commander -- the Administrative leader, I said first of all, the administrative leader.
Q.- Yes.
A.- He was responsible for the food and clothing, etc.
Q.- And also the camp commander?
A.- The camp commander was then removed later on. I don't know if that was the reason or not.
Q.- You said a few minutes ago when you told him about the transport columns that he got in touch with either Gluecks or Eicke and told them that would have to stop?
A.- Yes.
Q.- All right.
A.- And that actually happened afterwards.
Q.- And it did stop when Herr Pohl gave the order, the abuse, the cruelty stopped?
A.- Those incidents which I reported to him, yes, were eliminated quite so.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q.- Herr Hummenthey, let me ask you another question in this connection. What was the relationship actually between you and Pohl? Was it very friendly or did Herr Pohl also show you his other side?
A.- You can't call your relationship very friendly, and Herr Pohl, I am sure, will forgive me if I say that he was very excitable on several occasions, and that was the reason why he was not a very pleasant superior.
Q.- Didn't he throw you out of the room on a few occasions?
A.- Yes, that also occurred.
Q.- Yes, I just wanted to mention that in order to describe your relationship between yourself and Herr Pohl. Now, then, Mummenthey, this is the last question in this connection. You described what you saw, how you looked at those things, and what you did about it. Where were the limits of your possibilities to carry out those things which you considered correct?
A.- I was a co-business manager of DEST GmbH, and I was a so-called Office Chief, or Amtschef. The limits of my possibilities could be found exactly there where my competencies ended. Very severe regulations and the regulations concerning secrecy resulted in the fact that although things which were going on in the concentration camps remained secret.