Some people think the work difficult, and some, again, don't think so. I believe that there were just as many inmates who considered that work more or less bearable.
Q Of course, there were other things that played a part here, namely, the food conditions, and I am also speaking generally on this. Do you agree with me, do you admit that, of course, an inmate who was not properly or not sufficiently fed could possibly think that a job was difficult for him, even though under normal circumstances he would consider such a job more or less easy?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q For instance, were conditions, the food conditions in the camp at the time the same as they are approximately how for the German people?
A I was repeatedly told by managers upon my own orders, by works managers, what the inmates were receiving, and I mean both by weight and also according to calories. The works managers also tried to receive some of the menus of the kitchen of the inmates. What I could see from that in my opinion it was not too little, from a calorie point of view the whole thing varied between 2000 and 2200 per day.
Q That is approximately four times the amount of what we receive here in Germany?
A I don't know what the people are receiving outside, in the outside world, because I have been a captive all this time. I don't know it from my own knowledge. I only know it from the papers.
Q Now let me touch upon another point. In the construction work or establishment work, let's Neuengamme, the witness Bickel testified here that this heavy work in the Doofe Elbe was carried out by order and for the account of the City of Hamburg.
A Yes, the testimony on the part of Bickel was correct. The DEST didn't have anything to do with it.
Q Yes, I was going to ask you about that.
A Yes, quite so. It was not a task for the DEST.
Q Did the DEST at the beginning carry out its construction orders itself, or did it have other enterprises carry out their work for them?
A Up to the spring of 1940, according to my recollection, the brick works and some of the things were established by construction firms. I already mentioned that before, that those contracts were later on canceled. Up to that time, that is as I said before, spring, 1940, the inmates were being used by those construction firms, so the DEST did not carry out the construction itself under its own direction.
Q I shall come back to a special point, namely the clay pits in Neuengamme and Oranienburg. Is it correct that a certain amount of work had to be carried out by hand there?
A I have already explained that special dredging machines were necessary there which we could not receive during the war in spite of our efforts, because the manufacturing firms had a lack of material. That was the reason why the work had to be done by hand.
Q Is it correct that in the enterprises of the DEST, apart from the inmates, civilian workers were also working?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Were the general working conditions in the enterprises of the DEST about the same as those of a private industry, I mean, working time, working technique, work procedure, etc., etc.?
A I had repeated conferences, discussions with works managers, together with Herr Schondorff and other business managers, I have visited branches of other enterprises in order to be able to make a comparison, and I had to find out again and again that the equipment in our enterprises was definitely and by far better than the equipment in other enterprises. That was recognized by certain other corporations which were visiting our enterprise.
Q Do you furthermore admit, witness, that the daily work expected from the inmates was laid down by the Kommandantur, and that the guarding and the supervision of the inmates was carried out by detachments, guard details of the Kommandanturs? You can answer that by yes or no.
A The inmates were generally speaking requested from the Kommandantur, and they were under the supervision of the guards in the camps at all times.
Q Did the DEST have anything to do about what category of inmates was to be assigned for work?
A No. The inmates were requested from the camp; for instance, skilled workers, experts were requested, and the individual professional groups, for instance, carpenters, locksmiths, etc., etc.
Q Then we spoke about the labor camps which the DEST had, for instance, the ones at Neurohlau, Oranienburg, Linz, etc. Were any complaints ever sent from those Camps to the Main Department in Berlin or to the works management about bad feeding conditions, about malnutrition, about bad billeting, etc.?
A I would like to call this peculiar fact to your attention, namely that - I can not remember any complaints which came to us from those small working camps. Apparently the conditions there were better than in the concentration camps proper.
Q Now, Herr Mummenthey, it is part of your character, and the Tribunal had an opportunity to watch your heavy North German attitude, to try to stress various things without actually explaining them. You do not have the simplicity which the witness Bickel used in order to explain some of his statements. However, you do have to come out of this track in order to explain to the Tribunal clearly your action. Did you, as business manager of the DEST, try to eliminate those bad conditions and the abuses, namely just misconditions in feeding and billeting and the guarding and the treatment, etc. Did you try to alleviate those conditions and stop them?
A First of all let me tell you in general terms in all those cases where we found out something, we interfered, and we tried to stop those things, and to better the situation. We were not content with simply making complaints to the Kommandantur, but we insisted again and again until we finally got our idea through.
Q Herr Mummenthey, I just gave you the warning not to speak about "we". Whom do you mean by "we"? Do you mean you, yourself? Were they the works managers, or were they other companies with whom you had to do work? We are not speaking about responsibilities of "we's" but we are speaking about your responsibility, if you do something or statue something, so please say, "I did this or that".
A You just said it was not part of my attitude to place myself in the foreground, but I can tell you the initiative in these things came from me, because I simply couldn't bear to know things which were not quite correct. I worked on it as much as I could, and I sat on their shoulder until that change took place.
Q What were the betterments which you finally achieved in detail, that you accomplished actually and requested and realized?
A For instance, with reference to food, we finally got our idea through that the inmates received the additional rations for very heavy work and also for long hours, all the supplementary rations which during the war had been fixed for the civilian workers. As far as the clothing was concerned, of course it was very difficult during the war, and particularly due to the fact that the factories didn't have any contingents at their disposal. I know, for instance, that the civilians had special coupons that they received from the economic office without being able to purchase anything for them. For instance, they had coupons for shoes and for overalls and similar things, and even the coupon that had been issued by an authority was not sufficient to help them to purchase the things. If, for instance, complaints were turned into the Economic Office, or requests rather, for additional clothing, the Economic Office always pointed out that the concentration camp administration only had the right to make those requests.
In spite of that I succeeded in many cases, and I have to say by making false statements because we said that the inmates were civilian workers, I actually succeeded in getting things, shoes, clothes for working purposes, in the enterprises, for instance, in the stone quarries. Large amounts of gloves were manufactured in the plants themselves. I saw that myself. I convinced myself while visiting one of the plants there was a sufficient number, sufficient stock of gloves in the plants.
Q How was it with the food?
A During the war, of course, it was very difficult -- I would even like to say illegal to receive food. I have mentioned the time that one could only channel it through the compensation business as it is called today. Let me use an example from Oranienburg, for instance. A Kreis Peasant's Leader asked the construction management if he could receive any bricks or tiles. I told the works manager to handle the thing in the following manner. It would have been an offense to deliver the bricks, and furthermore, to send bricks to Berlin without a permission, but I told him that we could send bricks to a factory in Berlin to some firm which would send tiles in exchange. All those things were taken down to the Kreis Peasant Leader, and he sent us several wagons of potatoes. Those potatoes were then distributed to the inmates as an additional amount of food. I could give you any number of examples just like this case, and I believe that the affidavit which the defense counsel will introduce in this Court will show the veracity of my general statements.
Q Witness, did you yourself look after the food of the inmates, that is to say, did you yourself personally or through the works manager find out what the food was like which the inmates were receiving around noon?
A During one of my local visits, and then when I had the works manager conferences, I told these works managers to make sure as best as they could what food the inmates were receiving. I repeatedly had the food shown to me. Those facts were then reported to the commander, and there were several difficulties between him and myself because the commander said that as an army commander he considered that going over his competencies and that he thought that it was a vote of no confidence on my part. He stated that the food was being supervised by both him personally and the camp physician. He said it was none of my business to deal with these matters, nor of the works managers. He told us to mind our own business, and they would mind theirs. Apart from that I have to say that what I saw in the way of food in the works does not correspond to what witnesses have testified here, almost unanimously, when they talked about a thin water soup, with a few cabbage leaves swimming there and a few rotten potatoes.
In order to gain an impression, I personally ate the food, and I really can't say that it was bad, or uneatable. As fa matter of fact, it does not correspond to the testimony as given by the witnesses here.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Give us an idea of what the food was.
A Your Honor, I saw the food at noon, and most of the time that was a stew. In other words, they had potatoes, vegetable, and meat in one dish. I also saw how much the inmates were receiving. And most of them could get a second helping.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you know what they got in the evening?
A I personally didn't see it, but I heard about it. I heard that they received bread, grease, and on certain days, they received some sausage.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: How often were those sausage-days?
A I couldn't tell you that for use, Your Honor, but there were a few days a week at least, I can remember that.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, didn't you on one occasion get involved in some sort of an investigation or some sort of a trial because you had, under false pretenses, procured some food from the economic office?
A In 1944, I had arranged with the works manager in Oranienburg in order that the foundry workers could receive the very heavy workers' rations, at least, we should request them by saying that they were civilian workers of the plant, and the office approved that request and in the inmates received that very-heavy workers' ration. I saw this very heavy workers' ration, and I saw repeatedly how it was prepared and distributed. According to my recollection, there were 400 grams of bread per day, and approximately 50 grams of sausage, and 30 grams of grease, approximately, of course.
I believe defense counsel will introduce an affidavit where a former inmate will confirm these statements because he was working in the foundry.
Q Wasn't there a certain special report made to the police about that?
A Somehow the administration of the concentration camp Sachsenhausen must have gained knowledge about it. In any case, the works manager was informed that it was not permissible; but in spite of that, we carried on our work with the result that one day an investigating official came in, and he was going to carry out a trial suit against the business management of DEST for procuring food under false pretenses. I finally succeeded in getting this official to drop the case by using various ruses, and the food was still distributed even up until April, 1945, at which time the plant was destroyed.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How do you reconcile your testimony about the food with the testimony of your witness Bickel, who testified that unless the inmates received help from the outside that they did not receive sufficient food to sustain life? That's your witness. How do you reconcile your testimony with what he has sworn to?
A Your Honor, I don't quite understand what the witness said in that connection. I scarcely heared any complaints from the works manager in Neuengamme. Between '41, or in the 40's, there were certain periods of time when the food was insufficient. Those things were reported to Pohl, and they were eliminated. At a later time, I never did hear any more complaints. That is the reason why I simply couldn't tell you how the witness Bickel gets the idea and says that the food, generally speaking, was entirely insufficient. For instance, the works manager in Hamburg showed me the menu on one occasion when I asked him to, and he showed me both the menu and the food chant, for example. I was not Chart II, Case 4 in the position to recognize that the food contained therein was insufficient.
Seen from both the nutritional point of view and the calory point of view, it was the same as received by the civilian workers during the war. After all I could always compare this with what the newspapers were receiving.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, Bickel testified that he stayed in a concentration camp ten years, and he certainly had an opportunity to observe and know whether or not the food was sufficient to sustain life; and he testified that it was not, unless the inmate had a job such as an office job or some position that he did not have to expend much energy. On the contrary, he said that if he did have to expend energy and work hard, unless they obtained help from the outside or from the Red Cross that they could not survive.
A Your Honor, based on the visit which I made at the time I went to the plants, I could not remember such a thing. If I had heard such a fact, I would have worked on it as long a period of time until this would have been eliminated. I would never have kept quiet knowing that the food was absolutely insufficient. The food, of course, was not as good as in peacetime, it was natural. It didn't even apply to the civilian workers -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I didn't mean that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: How many times did you actually physically see the noon meal you described to me a while back?
A The translation is not very comprehensible. Your Honor, I understood you to say how many times I saw a noon meal?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes.
A When I was in the enterprise, I believe I convinced myself on every occasion about it, and when I was in Oranienburg in 1944 with the Main Administration, I was in the plant quite often; and I took a look at the food. In Oranienburg also I had the opportunity to see in the small camp which was quite near the main camp what was being spent there for the inmates.
And by that, I didn't mean expenditures or the expenses, but the food and the distribution of food.
THE PRESIDENT: We have finished.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Yes, Your Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, you were speaking about the working time. I would like to ask you one more question now. Were there any prescriptions which had been given as to the working time by the management of DEST?
AA general instruction about the length of working time could not possibly be given by us because the working time for civilian workers even who were working in our plants had been fixed locally. It was according to the working time of the civilian workers, that the working time for inmates was directed. After all, the civilian workers were the ones that were giving the instructions to the inmates; therefore, they could not work without the civilian workers.
Q How was it about Pohl's orders concerning this 11-hour day as contained in Exhibit number 60. This is Document NO-1290, Document Book 3, by the Prosecution, on page 64 of the English Document Book. You know about those instructions?
A Yes, quite so. That order according to my idea was just contain ed on paper; in any case, we did not quite comply with it because it couldn't possibly be done. After all, the civilian workers were not working 11 hours a day, and without their supervision, the plant simply couldn't manufacture. I know from my own experience with reference to many plants when the work began and when the noon break took place, and when the work was finished at night. It is from that recollection that I can only think of working hours between 9 to 10 hours at the utmost.
Q Didn't you also have the conference with the Chief of Office D-II due to instructions by Pohl - by the name of Mauer?
A Standartenfuehrer Maurer on several occasions informed me that he had found out that during the inspection tours that the order had not been complied with by us.
And he also told me that he had to report that to Pohl. Whereupon in a hard struggle which I had with him, I was able to convince him that it was not possible and why it was not possible. Finally, he saw it my way, although reluctantly.
THE PRESIDENT: That is a good place to stop, Dr. Froeschmann. We will recess until tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1630 hours, 5 August 1947 until 0930 hours, 6 August 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal II in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, Defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 6 August 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the defendant Volk is absent from Court on account of illness. The trial will proceed in his absence.
KARL MUMMENTEHY - Resumed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. I should like to remind you, witness, that you arc still under oath. Yesterday afternoon we last stopped with the subject of the working time for the inmates. I should like to ask you the following question now, witness. What orders existed on the part of the works managements and the central administration of the Dest with reference to the employment of inmates who could not work, sick inmates, that is?
A. The works managements had general instructions, and those instructions were repeatedly mentioned in works managers' conferences, stating that they were only to employ those inmates who could be used to a full extent, particularly those inmates who were not sick. The enterprises themselves had the greatest interest in employing and keeping only those people who had already gotten into the swing of the work and possibly in excusing these inmates, should they become sick, and in sending them back to the camp and possibly leaving them there.
In that respect they acted just like any other civilian enterprise in which, should a worker not be able to work, he would be sent home; and it would be seen that he became in a position to work again.
5630a
Q. Now, I would appreciate it if you would look to Exhibit 179, which is NO-2122, as contained in Document Book Number IV on page 146 of the English Document Book. This is the affidavit by Roeder. Roeder states that in Mauthausen after they had an epidemic of dysentery the sick inmates were again sent to the stone quarry to work there under the most difficult conditions. What do you have to say about that? Do you know anything about it?
A. I know nothing about it, and I think it absolutely impossible that such a thing would have happened. As I knew them, the works managers wouldn't conceivably have permitted such a thing to happen because our requirements for works managers were rather high. In the first years we immediately changed and released entirely those people who did not quite comply with the requirements which we had set. I believe I am in a position to say that those works managers who then remained with us behaved themselves in every respect in the way to be expected from a normal business manager or works manager.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, would you please tell us very briefly in this connection of what professional classes or groups these works managers were members, generally speaking? Were they works managers before; were they brick managers; or were they members of any higher professions?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A The works managers in general were all experts and most of them engineers. They were from this profession and had a good education and background in their profession.
Q Were they diplom engineers as they called them in Germany?
A Yes, we did have diplom engineers.
Q What were their age groups, witness?
A We had age groups between 35 and 60.
Q Therefore, men who already had a certain experience in life. Right?
A Yes, quite so.
Q In this connection, witness, I would like to ask you the following question. What do you have to say about the charges made to you by the Prosecution that it was an explicit policy of DEST to utilize inmates and get as much work as possible out of them while using as little food, clothing and billets as possible?
A That never was the policy of the enterprise nor could it have been the policy of the enterprise because this would have been in contradiction with every economic sense. We did not ask the inmate to do more for us than he actually could do and that was based on the various factors which have to be regarded in dealing with inmates. First of all they were not used to the jobs, not trained. Then we should not forget the factors which go with arrest. An inmate is always depressed. The fact that we did regard all those factors is shown by the fact that we employed more inmates in an enterprise of ours than would have been used in a civilian enterprise. I remember the three plants, Stuthoff, Heidhof, Peimannsfelde. Before inmates were employed there the personnel amounted to 150 workers in all three enterprises. From the moment we started using inmates there was a total of 400 employed. That shows that we did pay attention to the various points which I just discussed.
Q In order to remain with this example, witness, did you get more production out of those 400 inmates than of the 150 civilian workers?
A The same from a production point of view. The production re Court No. II, Case No. 4.mained approximately the same.
Q You wish to say, therefore, that the comparison between inmates and work produced by civilian workers was 1 to 3 or 1 to 4.
A Yes. The ratio was approximately that much but you can't make it a rule. You have to consider the various conditions with the enterprise. In this connection let me mention the fact that in our enterprise we still had a large number of civilian workers, at GrossRosen, this was of a disadvantage, namely, the civilian workers during the course of time simulated themselves to slower movements of the inmates. And, in the book by Dr. Kogon I read that he also noticed this fact.
Q You mean to say they worked slower rather than faster?
A That is the fact when inmates were used. Also, the Justice Administration noticed the same experience as I heard in conferences with the Justice Department people.
Q Let me go on now, Herr Mummenthey, there was a regulation according to which the employment of inmates as such in offices was forbidden. Now, we had a witness here on the stand who was an inmate who did work in an office and he was the witness Bickel. Herr Bickel did not have such a bad time in the concentration camp according to his own testimony. Was employment of inmates in offices forbidden in DEST or not?
A The Prosecution introduced Document NO-2318, Exhibit 12, and it can be seen from that document that employment of inmates in offices was forbidden as such and yet we did not comply with that regulation. We acted according to the principle to put as many inmates as possible to the working places which they knew and for which they had a practical background before being admitted to the concentration camp. That is why in the course of the years more and more inmates were sent to the plant administration, to offices, and to the camp administration.
Q Can you give us a few figures or names?
A I remember from Oranienburg that the construction office of Court No. II, Case No. 4.the plant was being directed by an inmate by the name of SchneiderHeinze.
The man in charge of the bookkeeping department, and collaborators in the bookkeeping department in Oranienburg were also inmates. The name of the man in charge was Quader. The business manager of the Oranienburg stone quarry plant was Herr Schulze and was also an inmate. Later on he was dismissed. However, I do have to point out that these inmates did participate in conferences of a commercial and technical nature. They never did show that they were inmates and at those conferences according to my recollection they contributed quite a bit.
THE PRESIDENT: There is some question about the translation "dis miss".
THE INTERPRETER: Release, your Honor, would be the same.
A (continued) I was stating before it is peculiar as may be seen today in this court room that really we all worked together with the task we had before us, and these inmates as far as I could see actually did work with willingness and with love. That could be seen by the fact that currently they brought suggestions to better conditions technically and organizationally. I did speak with the witness Quader on several occasions and I know from my colleague Schondorf that he had quite a few conferences with the man in charge of the construction office, Schneider-Heinze, and he asked him for suggestions once in awhile. It was extremely difficult for us that we couldn't actually succeed in getting these inmates released. We not only tried once but on several occasions to have inmates released. The RSHA. (Reich Security Main Office) refused again and again saying these inmates could not be released.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q How can you say, witness, that any man would love to be in prison and to work for months or years for nothing. Do you think any man would be happy to be imprisoned and work every day and get nothing for it?
A Your Honor, I can only tell you what I can remember about those things at the time. Just as I stated before that's the way it was.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
As far as the fact of employment was concerned we couldn't influence that in any way. We did every thing in that respect in order to facilitate employment and to make it easier for them and I do believe work within their professional circle did help them get over the depression which comes with imprisonment, I mean psychologically.
Q The Reich imprisoned these men but then they tried to make them happy in their imprisonment by giving them plenty of work?
A Your Honor, the work or the duty to work, according to my opinion, is a measure which was part of the imprisonment. The same has applied to the Justice Administration as far as inmates were concerned.
Q Well, it's a good deal like locking a man up in a prison cell and saying, "Here is a present, a book to read while you are in prison. We want you to enjoy it." That's about the same thing, isn't it?
A Your Honor, one should take into consideration the conditions of things in Germany at the time. Prior to 1933 in the Justice Administration the duty to work had been introduced as compulsory and then became a part of law.
Q That is fine. It is a very sensible plan. I was just thinking about the man that was brought in from Czechoslovakia or France or Denmark or Belgium or Holland. I wonder how he felt about the duty to work for Germany.
A Well, what the reasons were in detail, why the Gestapo - -
Q There wasn't any reason, any good reason. I just want to challenge your statement that the man who was taken away from his family in Denmark or Holland and made to work for the German Reich wasn't very happy about it.
A Your Honor, I will never try to say that all inmates were happy who were working in a concentration camp as part of their punishment.
Q Punished them because they were from Holland? Was that the reason they were being punished?
A Your Honor, I don't exactly say positively, but those who were Court No. II, Case No. 4.imprisoned due to security reasons, due to protective custody should -
Q Well, that's just one of those broad shoulder terms that covers a multitude of sins. Well, go ahead Dr. Froeschmann.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, may I start from the point where you left off, and I want to clarify all those mistakes which are going through all the courtrooms here, and I want to clear it up once forever.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, I would like to state at this point that I haven't spoken to you about the entire matter, but, witness, did you in your testimony so far remember those German inmates who were German citizens who were living in Germany and who had been committed to a concentration camp by the Gestapo?
A Yes.
Q The President of this Tribunal chooses a different way. The President starts from the point where Bickel left off, where he said that in 1944 people were being brought in from Denmark, Norway, then prior to that also from Belgium, Holland, and they were being brought in as workers to Germany. According to the President's opinion they were not doing voluntary work, but rather they were sent to a concentration camp, and it was from there that they were distributed and used for heavy work. I believe I understood the President correctly. Did you ever deal with such cases as the time? Did it become known to you at the time that Norwegians, Danes and Greeks, all these people of Europe, were in the concentration camps, and how was it, will you please explain it to us in detail so that we can actually and finally clarify that point?
A What the Gestapo or the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office, did at the time, I didn't know. I can only speak from the point of view of where I was at the time. That is the only way I can tell you about my recollection. Amongst the inmates in the plant at Oranienburg there were also foreigners. I stated that before. One could not actually see that, but one could hear it, if one would speak to the individual, by the fact that he spoke a different language. In such cases I asked them through the interpreter, exactly as I did it with the German inmates if I had the opportunity to do so and to speak with them, "Why are Court No. II, Case No. 4.you imprisoned?