A. We always tried to have the inmates who worked in our enterprises billeted separately and to look after their feeding and necessities ourselves. We hoped to be able to build accommodations and labor camps of our own near the works. Thereby, we wanted to achieve the situation that the inmates would be taken away from the influence of these large camps and the commandants. Wherever such installations were established later on they proved their worth to the benefit of the inmates, as I could prove by a large number of examples.
Q. I should be extremely happy if you should give us a few such examples.
A. For instance, the labor came near the Bohemia factory. That was roughly what we really planned because if the camp leader, in that camp had been under the orders of the manager this would have been in accordance with our plans.
Q. Did you, by accommodating them in a labor camp, want to look after food, clothing and billeting, and also payment?
A. Yes, we regarded this problem as a whole, and we hoped that the problem would be finally solved. We meant to deal with all these points. In 1940 or 1941, for instance, we suggested to have in Oranienburg -and the suggestion came from the work manager there--a camp established there which would be entirely under our own administration. Thereby we hoped to settle the conflict between our interests and those of the commandants. The suggestion was submitted to Pohl also, and, at first, he agreed to it. Later omit was turned down as not practicable because the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps at the time quite obviously opposed that idea. In 1943 we made another attempt in this direction. This becomes clear from Document NO-1031 which is Exhibit 437 in Document Book 16, on page 52. The suggestion was then concerned with the Roemhill Works which was to be taken over. By that suggestion we wanted to prove that all difficulties and conflicts could be eliminated if you have the plant and the camp under one joint management. In this case, it would be under the works manager since the inmates were entirely under the orders of the commandant, although they worked with us, it might be that through this divided administration there might never be a really satisfactory solution.
The Roemhill Operation was also turned down at the time.
Q. In other words, you have tried through a variety of methods to have your ideas, namely, that DEST should not be a typical inmate enterprise, and that inmates should be given suitable clothing, food and payment?
A. Such were our endeavors through the years, and we gave all our energy to them.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, was this not a form of idealism on your part, the hopelessness of which, in view of the obtuseness of the average commandant, you had to realize? Do you know what I mean?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, were you really sufficiently innocent to believe that you could, and had, to make such suggestions, and did you hope that they would ever be fulfilled, while, on the other hand, you had the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps embarking on its power politics?
A. Had I known that at the time what I know today, I would not have worked one more day, nor would I have had to do that work because, looking back, this was a fight against a windmills, a fight which we fought completely unsuccessfully, as far as we were concerned.
Q. May I explain perhaps what you said just now? Did you want to say, world you say you would have resigned or you would have simply left things as they stood without doing anything against it?
A. I would not have left things as they stood. There was only one thing I could do: resign. And that possibility to resign did not exist, as I saw things.
Q. But then I don't understand what you mean. You said just now, "Had I known all that at the time, I could have chosen only one road:
to do nothing."
If I have understood you rightly you want to say; every minute would have wasted which I gave to this fight because it never had any success." Is that correct?
A. It was a struggle which I would like to call quite useless.
Q. Now, here we have this heavy, Lower-Saxonian manner of yours; you cannot express yourself the way you really want to.
THE PRESIDENT: This will be an opportunity to take the usual recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Herr Mummenthey, first of all let me speak about the general and special conditions of work under which these inmates had to work and which the prosecution used in order to consider you responsible for these acts. First let me ask you, did your activity in Berlin permit you to visit regularly all the plants which were dispersed and distributed all over Germany?
A. In the course of the years I was in various plants. I was us ally in those plants for a few hours. That time for the most part was occupied with conferences and conversations concerning individual points existing between the main administration and the work management. On those occasions I also got acquainted with the enterprises and convinced myself of the progress of work. There never were any discussions with inmates at the time. That was especially for a reason which applied to all of us, that we were not permitted to speak to inmates.
Q. Witness, I shall now come to details. Please take a look at Document Book XVIII and at Exhibit 468. This is Document PS-1153 on page 76. It is a document on Gerstein. It is stated there that in Mauthausen it was customary to have the Jews work in a stone quarry which was rather high up. The witness continues that actually quite a few Jews were thrown down the stone quarry. I should like to ask you, Witness--were you ever told by the works manager in Mauthausen or did you ever fund out in any other way about the fact that Jews worked in the stone quarries which belonged to the Dest and that they were thrown down into that stone quarry?
If you did not hear about it, how can you explain that testimony?
A. I neither saw anything about it nor did I ever hear anything about it from the works managers. In this connection I should like to point out that in Mauthausen, apart from the stone quarries of the Dest, there were also other stone quarries where inmates worked.
Q. Witness, now had such a horrible report come to your knowledge at any time, what would you have done then?
A. I would have done the same thing which I would have done in any other case when something came to my knowledge. That is, I would have tried to help in that situation. If I couldn't do that myself, I would have gone and seen Pohl and asked him to have those things stopped. I acted the same way in every other case about which I heard something.
Q. Wouldn't you also have gone and seen the commander of the concentration camp, had you heard about this case which was nothing but pure murder, and inquired if it was true?
A. The first works manager would have done that; and if he had not been successful in that, I would have done it.
Q. Did you at the time take into account the possibility that such crimes were not caused by the works management or their employees but rather by the guards like Bickel?
A. Mr. Defense Counsel, how could I possibly think about such a thing at the time? How could I possibly think that such things were happening?
Q. Witness, did you hear anything about the rough treatment to which these inmates were being subjected by the guards in Mauthausen at any time?
A. From several works managers, particularly during the first years of my activity there, I had heard that certain mistreatment of the inmates was taking place. The works managers did complain to the concentration camp commander about it; and if they didn't succeed in getting this thing stopped, they reported it to me so that I might possibly intervene and stop it; and this happened in every case.
Q. What were the results of your speaking to the commanders and to other agencies?
A. I believe I can tell you that. In the course of the years, particularly 1943 and 1944, I don't believe that any such things occurred.
At least I did not gain any knowledge about them. I believe this was occasioned by the fact that again and again we interfered with activities on the part of the guards and the block personnel.
Q. Then I would ask you to put this document aside and take a look at document which is PS 2309 which is contained in Document Book 6 and in Exhibit 182. It is on page 122 of the English. That is the report concerning the investigation of War Crimes made by Headquarters, 3rd United States Army, wherein reference in made to Flossenbuerg. It is stated that working and living conditions there were close to a systematic extermination. It can be seen from the document that they are referring to enterprises of DEST or did general quarries exist in Flossenbuerg without any reference to DEST enterprised?
A. I read this document cuite carefully uid I can't find where DEST in mentioned. In this connection I would like to say that I know from the works manager of Flossenbuerg that the camp itself also had a quarry.
Q. Do you agree with the witness Schwarz who with reference to Flossenbuerg stated that they were working there with the most modern mechanized equipment, and working conditions were so pleasant that Flossenbuerg was an exemplary enterprise.
A. From my recollection from the past years I can only tell you that there was only on fatal accident during that time. At least, we in Berlin heard nothing else in this respect. I any case we cleared all prerequisites with the works management in order to eliminate accidents and similar things.
Q. Witness take a look at Exhibit 179 Document NO-2122, which is contained in Document Book 6, it is on page 106 of the English and it states among other thing that the work in the stone quarry in Flossenbuerg could only be borne for ½ year, that working time amounted to 12 to 14 hours a day. What enterprise was this witness Schwarz referring to according to this document?
A. From this document I could not tell you or from which stone quarry he is referring to. As far as working time was concerned he is speaking of working time in the camp. I know from my own experience that the work in Flossenbuerg started approximately at 7 in the morning. Furthermore, there was a break between 12 and 1 o'clock.
They carried out some explosions during the time off and at 5 o'clock we finished entirely and then again they carried out some explosions during 5 and 6. During that time not a single person was allowed in the camp.
Q. Witness I shall now come to the testimony given by the witness Engles Before this Military Tribunal. On pages 738-739 of the German Transcript state there with reference to Kinker works they were working there over 14 hours some time. Do you remember that testimony?
A. Yes I do.
Q. According to your opinion did that testimony by the witness Engler refer to the time when the Klinker Works was in full swing or do you think he is referring to other periods of time possibly to other plants?
A. According to my recollection the testimony did not make it clear whether he talking about the cap or regards to plants itself.
Q. Did you at that time know anything about the Pinker SK?
A. The Kinker SK was no term whatsoever for me. I only heard that term here for the first time from the witness Engler.
Q. Witness, it has also been repeatedly stated hear what the witness Bielsky as contained on pages 329 to 331 spoke about the sand pit in Auschwitz.
A. I already told you in Auschwitz we had neither gravel or sand pit, only dragging machine. I assume that witness was referring to something entirely different.
Q. I would furthermore like to refer to the testimony by the witness Krysiak on pages 440-add 444 of the German record. He testified that people in the stone quarry of Mauthausen had been worked to death. What do you have to say about that.
A. I can remember from the testimony that the witness was speaking of punitive action carried out by the camp which took place on Saturday or Sunday.
Q. I shall that come back later to the punitive details. For the presend this statement of fact should suffice.
Now, testimony has been given by witnesses and also individual affidavits introduced by the Prosecution pointed out that food there was horrible the clothing not sufficient and billeting bad. All these thing brought together with the working places of DEST. What do you have to say about that?
A. I believe that introduction of evidence so far has shown that the DEST, that is to say the economic enterprise, had no influence on those conditions. The works managers in most instances couldn't know what the inmates received in the way of food in the camp proper because after all only the noon meal was distributed in the plants.
Q. I asked the question of the witness Bickel yesterday if the testimony given by the witness Kruse is correct that a labor detail amounting to 2000 men moved out of Neuengamme for work. The witness Brickel stated that testimony was exaggerated. Now hear the testimony given by the witness Engler on page 693 according to which the strength of the labor Kommando in Dest was stated to be 1500 to 2000 human beings. If not can you explain its incorrectness.
A. The statement given 1500 to 2000 maybe approximately correct but the camp itself, however, at that time as the same witness testified had approximately 1200 to 1500 inmates which shows that approximately only 1/8 working for DEST. I have to assume that the other 7/8 worked for other enterprises other that DEST.
Q Witness, were the working conditions there generally speaking, were they the same in all the enterprises of the DEST?
A No, they were not always and at all places the same. They differed depending on the kind of work. For instance, the question was whether the inmates were working in stone quarries, brick factories, porcelain factories or armament enterprises.
Q Now was it with the working time; also generally speaking, was it about the same everywhere?
A No, the working time depended on the local conditions and depended on the branches also, and the plant manager was the one who fixed it on the basis of a general authority he had received from us.
Q We already heard from witness Bickel that inmates were being employed at Neuengamme at a time when the enterprise was being established. Do you agree with him that work at the time was harder work than the work which was taking place in the plants which were operated mechanically?
A I believe that this applies to every large-scale construction that it was more work and heavier work than in the enterprise itself, because after all a lot of earth has to be moved, the building has to be build, etc., etc. Such work can not possibly be avoided in a big industrial complex.
Q Was all this preliminary work manual at the time, or did they already use in those preliminary works machines, trucks, etc.?
AAs far as the warehouse had technical equipment in those fields it was used, but in spite of that there must have been quite a bit of hand work which has to be carried out by hand, and which the inmates presumably considered heavy work. After all, we shouldn't forget that it depended entirely upon the physical condition of the individual, and it also depended on the profession which he had prior to becoming an inmate. Then we also have to think about his assimilation to this type of work.
Some people think the work difficult, and some, again, don't think so. I believe that there were just as many inmates who considered that work more or less bearable.
Q Of course, there were other things that played a part here, namely, the food conditions, and I am also speaking generally on this. Do you agree with me, do you admit that, of course, an inmate who was not properly or not sufficiently fed could possibly think that a job was difficult for him, even though under normal circumstances he would consider such a job more or less easy?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q For instance, were conditions, the food conditions in the camp at the time the same as they are approximately how for the German people?
A I was repeatedly told by managers upon my own orders, by works managers, what the inmates were receiving, and I mean both by weight and also according to calories. The works managers also tried to receive some of the menus of the kitchen of the inmates. What I could see from that in my opinion it was not too little, from a calorie point of view the whole thing varied between 2000 and 2200 per day.
Q That is approximately four times the amount of what we receive here in Germany?
A I don't know what the people are receiving outside, in the outside world, because I have been a captive all this time. I don't know it from my own knowledge. I only know it from the papers.
Q Now let me touch upon another point. In the construction work or establishment work, let's Neuengamme, the witness Bickel testified here that this heavy work in the Doofe Elbe was carried out by order and for the account of the City of Hamburg.
A Yes, the testimony on the part of Bickel was correct. The DEST didn't have anything to do with it.
Q Yes, I was going to ask you about that.
A Yes, quite so. It was not a task for the DEST.
Q Did the DEST at the beginning carry out its construction orders itself, or did it have other enterprises carry out their work for them?
A Up to the spring of 1940, according to my recollection, the brick works and some of the things were established by construction firms. I already mentioned that before, that those contracts were later on canceled. Up to that time, that is as I said before, spring, 1940, the inmates were being used by those construction firms, so the DEST did not carry out the construction itself under its own direction.
Q I shall come back to a special point, namely the clay pits in Neuengamme and Oranienburg. Is it correct that a certain amount of work had to be carried out by hand there?
A I have already explained that special dredging machines were necessary there which we could not receive during the war in spite of our efforts, because the manufacturing firms had a lack of material. That was the reason why the work had to be done by hand.
Q Is it correct that in the enterprises of the DEST, apart from the inmates, civilian workers were also working?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Were the general working conditions in the enterprises of the DEST about the same as those of a private industry, I mean, working time, working technique, work procedure, etc., etc.?
A I had repeated conferences, discussions with works managers, together with Herr Schondorff and other business managers, I have visited branches of other enterprises in order to be able to make a comparison, and I had to find out again and again that the equipment in our enterprises was definitely and by far better than the equipment in other enterprises. That was recognized by certain other corporations which were visiting our enterprise.
Q Do you furthermore admit, witness, that the daily work expected from the inmates was laid down by the Kommandantur, and that the guarding and the supervision of the inmates was carried out by detachments, guard details of the Kommandanturs? You can answer that by yes or no.
A The inmates were generally speaking requested from the Kommandantur, and they were under the supervision of the guards in the camps at all times.
Q Did the DEST have anything to do about what category of inmates was to be assigned for work?
A No. The inmates were requested from the camp; for instance, skilled workers, experts were requested, and the individual professional groups, for instance, carpenters, locksmiths, etc., etc.
Q Then we spoke about the labor camps which the DEST had, for instance, the ones at Neurohlau, Oranienburg, Linz, etc. Were any complaints ever sent from those Camps to the Main Department in Berlin or to the works management about bad feeding conditions, about malnutrition, about bad billeting, etc.?
A I would like to call this peculiar fact to your attention, namely that - I can not remember any complaints which came to us from those small working camps. Apparently the conditions there were better than in the concentration camps proper.
Q Now, Herr Mummenthey, it is part of your character, and the Tribunal had an opportunity to watch your heavy North German attitude, to try to stress various things without actually explaining them. You do not have the simplicity which the witness Bickel used in order to explain some of his statements. However, you do have to come out of this track in order to explain to the Tribunal clearly your action. Did you, as business manager of the DEST, try to eliminate those bad conditions and the abuses, namely just misconditions in feeding and billeting and the guarding and the treatment, etc. Did you try to alleviate those conditions and stop them?
A First of all let me tell you in general terms in all those cases where we found out something, we interfered, and we tried to stop those things, and to better the situation. We were not content with simply making complaints to the Kommandantur, but we insisted again and again until we finally got our idea through.
Q Herr Mummenthey, I just gave you the warning not to speak about "we". Whom do you mean by "we"? Do you mean you, yourself? Were they the works managers, or were they other companies with whom you had to do work? We are not speaking about responsibilities of "we's" but we are speaking about your responsibility, if you do something or statue something, so please say, "I did this or that".
A You just said it was not part of my attitude to place myself in the foreground, but I can tell you the initiative in these things came from me, because I simply couldn't bear to know things which were not quite correct. I worked on it as much as I could, and I sat on their shoulder until that change took place.
Q What were the betterments which you finally achieved in detail, that you accomplished actually and requested and realized?
A For instance, with reference to food, we finally got our idea through that the inmates received the additional rations for very heavy work and also for long hours, all the supplementary rations which during the war had been fixed for the civilian workers. As far as the clothing was concerned, of course it was very difficult during the war, and particularly due to the fact that the factories didn't have any contingents at their disposal. I know, for instance, that the civilians had special coupons that they received from the economic office without being able to purchase anything for them. For instance, they had coupons for shoes and for overalls and similar things, and even the coupon that had been issued by an authority was not sufficient to help them to purchase the things. If, for instance, complaints were turned into the Economic Office, or requests rather, for additional clothing, the Economic Office always pointed out that the concentration camp administration only had the right to make those requests.
In spite of that I succeeded in many cases, and I have to say by making false statements because we said that the inmates were civilian workers, I actually succeeded in getting things, shoes, clothes for working purposes, in the enterprises, for instance, in the stone quarries. Large amounts of gloves were manufactured in the plants themselves. I saw that myself. I convinced myself while visiting one of the plants there was a sufficient number, sufficient stock of gloves in the plants.
Q How was it with the food?
A During the war, of course, it was very difficult -- I would even like to say illegal to receive food. I have mentioned the time that one could only channel it through the compensation business as it is called today. Let me use an example from Oranienburg, for instance. A Kreis Peasant's Leader asked the construction management if he could receive any bricks or tiles. I told the works manager to handle the thing in the following manner. It would have been an offense to deliver the bricks, and furthermore, to send bricks to Berlin without a permission, but I told him that we could send bricks to a factory in Berlin to some firm which would send tiles in exchange. All those things were taken down to the Kreis Peasant Leader, and he sent us several wagons of potatoes. Those potatoes were then distributed to the inmates as an additional amount of food. I could give you any number of examples just like this case, and I believe that the affidavit which the defense counsel will introduce in this Court will show the veracity of my general statements.
Q Witness, did you yourself look after the food of the inmates, that is to say, did you yourself personally or through the works manager find out what the food was like which the inmates were receiving around noon?
A During one of my local visits, and then when I had the works manager conferences, I told these works managers to make sure as best as they could what food the inmates were receiving. I repeatedly had the food shown to me. Those facts were then reported to the commander, and there were several difficulties between him and myself because the commander said that as an army commander he considered that going over his competencies and that he thought that it was a vote of no confidence on my part. He stated that the food was being supervised by both him personally and the camp physician. He said it was none of my business to deal with these matters, nor of the works managers. He told us to mind our own business, and they would mind theirs. Apart from that I have to say that what I saw in the way of food in the works does not correspond to what witnesses have testified here, almost unanimously, when they talked about a thin water soup, with a few cabbage leaves swimming there and a few rotten potatoes.
In order to gain an impression, I personally ate the food, and I really can't say that it was bad, or uneatable. As fa matter of fact, it does not correspond to the testimony as given by the witnesses here.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Give us an idea of what the food was.
A Your Honor, I saw the food at noon, and most of the time that was a stew. In other words, they had potatoes, vegetable, and meat in one dish. I also saw how much the inmates were receiving. And most of them could get a second helping.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you know what they got in the evening?
A I personally didn't see it, but I heard about it. I heard that they received bread, grease, and on certain days, they received some sausage.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: How often were those sausage-days?
A I couldn't tell you that for use, Your Honor, but there were a few days a week at least, I can remember that.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, didn't you on one occasion get involved in some sort of an investigation or some sort of a trial because you had, under false pretenses, procured some food from the economic office?
A In 1944, I had arranged with the works manager in Oranienburg in order that the foundry workers could receive the very heavy workers' rations, at least, we should request them by saying that they were civilian workers of the plant, and the office approved that request and in the inmates received that very-heavy workers' ration. I saw this very heavy workers' ration, and I saw repeatedly how it was prepared and distributed. According to my recollection, there were 400 grams of bread per day, and approximately 50 grams of sausage, and 30 grams of grease, approximately, of course.
I believe defense counsel will introduce an affidavit where a former inmate will confirm these statements because he was working in the foundry.
Q Wasn't there a certain special report made to the police about that?
A Somehow the administration of the concentration camp Sachsenhausen must have gained knowledge about it. In any case, the works manager was informed that it was not permissible; but in spite of that, we carried on our work with the result that one day an investigating official came in, and he was going to carry out a trial suit against the business management of DEST for procuring food under false pretenses. I finally succeeded in getting this official to drop the case by using various ruses, and the food was still distributed even up until April, 1945, at which time the plant was destroyed.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How do you reconcile your testimony about the food with the testimony of your witness Bickel, who testified that unless the inmates received help from the outside that they did not receive sufficient food to sustain life? That's your witness. How do you reconcile your testimony with what he has sworn to?
A Your Honor, I don't quite understand what the witness said in that connection. I scarcely heared any complaints from the works manager in Neuengamme. Between '41, or in the 40's, there were certain periods of time when the food was insufficient. Those things were reported to Pohl, and they were eliminated. At a later time, I never did hear any more complaints. That is the reason why I simply couldn't tell you how the witness Bickel gets the idea and says that the food, generally speaking, was entirely insufficient. For instance, the works manager in Hamburg showed me the menu on one occasion when I asked him to, and he showed me both the menu and the food chant, for example. I was not Chart II, Case 4 in the position to recognize that the food contained therein was insufficient.
Seen from both the nutritional point of view and the calory point of view, it was the same as received by the civilian workers during the war. After all I could always compare this with what the newspapers were receiving.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, Bickel testified that he stayed in a concentration camp ten years, and he certainly had an opportunity to observe and know whether or not the food was sufficient to sustain life; and he testified that it was not, unless the inmate had a job such as an office job or some position that he did not have to expend much energy. On the contrary, he said that if he did have to expend energy and work hard, unless they obtained help from the outside or from the Red Cross that they could not survive.
A Your Honor, based on the visit which I made at the time I went to the plants, I could not remember such a thing. If I had heard such a fact, I would have worked on it as long a period of time until this would have been eliminated. I would never have kept quiet knowing that the food was absolutely insufficient. The food, of course, was not as good as in peacetime, it was natural. It didn't even apply to the civilian workers -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I didn't mean that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: How many times did you actually physically see the noon meal you described to me a while back?
A The translation is not very comprehensible. Your Honor, I understood you to say how many times I saw a noon meal?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes.
A When I was in the enterprise, I believe I convinced myself on every occasion about it, and when I was in Oranienburg in 1944 with the Main Administration, I was in the plant quite often; and I took a look at the food. In Oranienburg also I had the opportunity to see in the small camp which was quite near the main camp what was being spent there for the inmates.
And by that, I didn't mean expenditures or the expenses, but the food and the distribution of food.
THE PRESIDENT: We have finished.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Yes, Your Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, you were speaking about the working time. I would like to ask you one more question now. Were there any prescriptions which had been given as to the working time by the management of DEST?
AA general instruction about the length of working time could not possibly be given by us because the working time for civilian workers even who were working in our plants had been fixed locally. It was according to the working time of the civilian workers, that the working time for inmates was directed. After all, the civilian workers were the ones that were giving the instructions to the inmates; therefore, they could not work without the civilian workers.
Q How was it about Pohl's orders concerning this 11-hour day as contained in Exhibit number 60. This is Document NO-1290, Document Book 3, by the Prosecution, on page 64 of the English Document Book. You know about those instructions?
A Yes, quite so. That order according to my idea was just contain ed on paper; in any case, we did not quite comply with it because it couldn't possibly be done. After all, the civilian workers were not working 11 hours a day, and without their supervision, the plant simply couldn't manufacture. I know from my own experience with reference to many plants when the work began and when the noon break took place, and when the work was finished at night. It is from that recollection that I can only think of working hours between 9 to 10 hours at the utmost.
Q Didn't you also have the conference with the Chief of Office D-II due to instructions by Pohl - by the name of Mauer?
A Standartenfuehrer Maurer on several occasions informed me that he had found out that during the inspection tours that the order had not been complied with by us.