All I can base myself on is what the camp administration told us at the time, that for security reasons they would not allow us to pay cash to the inmate. At the beginning we paid cash to them.
Q How long did this last?
A From 1940, '41 until 1942 approximately.
Q Do you have any document which shows that to be a fact; can you refer to any document?
DR. FROESCHMANN: May I interpolate here, Your Honor? Had I completed my document books I could submit now seventeen document where a number of persons, managers and inmates, would bear our what Mummenthey has just told you. I regret to say that the Translation Section is so overworked that my document books are not ready yet, otherwise my whole case would be much simpler. And perhaps, may I make one more remark, if Your Honor please, I am sufficiently frank to say that when I took over the defense I had the same misgivings which the Tribunal has just voiced, where are the documents, how can you prove it, and Herr Mummenthey referred me back to his managers. I still had my doubts at that time, and I interviewed all these managers and questioned them closely. I am now quite certain that these statements are truthful.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Pray continue. Do you want to say something?
AAfter the payment of cash had been prohibited by the camp another method was chosen. We transferred the amounts to the camp. There they were put to the credit of the inmates on a bank account and the inmate could dispose in a variety of ways about that amount. As I remember it he could transfer it to his family if he wanted to. The third method chosen was the one I described, the one with the bonus voucher.
Q Witness, in the document the term "wages for inmates" and the term "compensation for inmates", and unless I am very much mistaken, the term "payment for production time by inmates", is that merely playing with words, or are we concerned here with different things?
What was your own attitude toward these things?
AAs in my opinion no proper contract existed between DEST and the inmate, we did not describe this amount as wages. We merely called it a compensation in order to make reference to the work done by the inmate.
Q Was there not another motive also which decided you to insist on an increase of these payments?
A It was my view that people outside might think that DEST all over their enterprises working with inmates might, by their apparently small overheads, make enormous profits or cut prices. All these elements decided me all the time to insist on an increase of the compensation payable to the Reich. I think I may say that last but not least it was due to my efforts to have these compensations constantly increased with BEST so that it finally reached the amount of six marks for the skilled worker and four marks for the assistant worker.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, this is always the amount that you paid to the Reich that you are speaking of?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the amount which we paid to the Reich. It was our intention thereby that the Reich would be put into a position of paying the inmate well. We regarded that amount as a contribution for the overheads incurred by the Reich.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You don't think, Witness, that the Reich would ever pay a Russian Jew one pfennig for working a year, do you?
A I did not know that at the time, if Your Honor please. Today, of course, I have to assume it.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, go ahead. I won't interrupt any further.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, Aid the voluntary contributions which you made in 1940 and 1941 continue by Office Group D-II in 1942 and 1943?
A The whole system of bonus vouchers which we introduced with DEST in 1940 and 1941 within the scope of training for inmates for skilled workers was taken over by D-II after its establishment and in the shape of what was known as a bonus system made an obligation to all enterprises which employed inmates.
Q It would appear that on the whole you agreed to what Defendant Baier has told us here.
A Yes, we have both the same attitude in these things.
DR. FROESCHMANN: If Your Honors please, I have no further questions about the topic of compensation for inmates. If the Court wants to put any more questions I shall gladly step back for a moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have one or two.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You quoted from the Bible this morning, do you remember, about "By the sweat of thy face thou shalt live"?
A Yes, I do.
Q You should have turned the page over and have read, "The workman is worthy of his hire." You didn't read that, did you?
A Yes, I remember that quotation, and that was always my attitude.
Q Well, of course the concentration camp inmate couldn't live on your attitude. It all boils down to this, doesn't it, that these people, most of whom were not Germans, were working for mere board and room, for food and shelter only, and second they had no opportunity to change that agreement or contract, but they had to keep working behind barbed wire for mere food and shelter. That is all they ever got.
A If Your Honors please, what could be done by us to alleviate the lot of the inmates has been done as far as I can see it.
Q That has nothing to do with my question. I am trying to get the facts of the situation of the plight of the inmate.
He had to work for scanty food and poor shelter and he couldn't stop.
A We did not have the power to change all that, Mr. President.
Q That isn't the question here now. You will answer this or we will sit up all night. It is a fact, isn't it, and you answer this question directly please, that the inmate got nothing for his labor except something to eat and a place to lie down, and second, if he didn't like that bargain he had no power to change it.
A The inmate could not change it, no.
Q Well, you have answered half of it. Now, the first half, the inmate got nothing for his work except scant food and poor shelter.
A Mr. President, what I remember from those years is not the picture which has become clear in this Court, namely that food and accommodation had been quite so bad.
Q Well, leave that out. He worked for food and shelter, good or bad.
A Mr. President, from my own knowledge I can not tell you what the inmate received from the camp. All I can tell you is what we gave him. I know, therefore, I do not know, therefore, whether perhaps the Reich credited their accounts for something. I really don't know.
Q. Qh, come now. You don't mean that. You know that the inmates didn't get anything to send home or put in their pocket. They were just kept alive so they could work, you know that, don't you?
A. Mr. President, I was not that familiar with the concentration camp to answer your question.
Q. Why, you managed the industries that used these men to work, a number of industries, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you mean to say that you have no idea whether these inmates got any money for their labor or not? Now, do not be rediculous, answer truthfully.
A. Mr. President, from what I know at that time I cannot say how the concentration camp gave anything to the inmates. All I can tell you is what I saw from my own sphere of work.
Q. All right, you should be wiser today. Are you convinced now that the inmates got nothing for their work except food and shelter?
A. Mr. President, what I know since the collapse is so enormous and my impression of what I gained is so considerably changed. I now know things which I did not know at the time, nor was I in the position to know them at the time.
Q. I am glad that your eyes have been opened. Now, that they are open, are you convinced that the inmates got nothing out food and shelter for their 11-hours'-a-day-work? Do you believe that now?
A. I am convinced of this today, yes.
Q. All right. Well, I call that slavery. What do you call it?
A. Looking backwards, you can call it that, yes, retrospectively.
Q. Well, I know you can call it. Wasn't it slavery?
A. I did not regard it as such at the time.
Q. You have an opinion today, this minute, have you not?
A. If I look on this problem retrospectively, I have reached that same opinion, yes.
Q. That it was slavery?
A. Looking retrospectively, yes, looking back from today, yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, looking back from today, speaking as one member of this Tribunal and only for myself, if you had as much to do with the workings and the labor of as many concentration camp inmates as you admit that you did have, you are in grave danger of being guilty of criminal negligence in not finding out more than you did find out. A man can't sit idly by and have things like this happen and say, "I didn't know," when he could have found it out by reasonable diligence. That is only speaking for one member of the Tribunal and not for the whole Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Froeschmann, the subject is yours.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May I perhaps rest on this point one more moment.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, the last question put by His Honor, Judge Phillips, deserves an answer from you. The reproach has been made that you, because you neglected to do your duty, because you did not fulfill your right and your duty to ask questions, neglected your duty at that time. You should have found out what the inmates really did get for what they did in the camp. I wanted to ask you later on about this problem, but I shall avail myself of the opportunity of doing it now.
What steps did you take, whom did you see, how did you go about it in order to form a precise and well-informed opinion of what inmates would get, and what was the answer that you did get or didn't get, as the case may be?
A. I tried to find out in the course of the years, but I was never given a satisfactory reply.
Q. From whom did you try to find out?
A. I asked Dr. Salpeter when he was with us.
Q. Who else?
A. Later on, the Chief of Amtsgruppe D.
Q. What did they tell you?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first what did you ask them?
A. What the inmates got, what sort of compensation, in the form of a bonus.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Did you contact Office Group D-II and draw their attention to the fact that which you did originally, that the amount of 30 pfennigs, 2, 4 and 6 marks was, in your opinion, not adequate compensation for work done by the inmates, and therefore it should be increased and handled differently, did you do that?
A. I pointed out and I stated that I regarded this amount only a contribution to the overheads of the Reich.
Q. And what was the answer you were given?
A. That it was to be handled in the future.
Q. To improsive one question. I don't know what really happened. Were you told this was none of your business, or were you told, "Yes, certainly, we will look after this. We think this is a very good idea...." and so forth?
A. If I discussed such matters concerned with the allocation of inmates, I was very frequently told that this was none of our business.
We should mind our own business. This was not part of my duties, but was exclusively responsibility of the RSHA or the Office Group D respectively.
Q. In other words, is it true as the witness Bickel told us yesterday that between the tendencies of the RSHA, this powerful political organization, and your own tencies of an economic and social character, an iron curtain was drawn in between?
A. I sometimes felt as though I was knocking my head against a wall, beyond which you cannot see and you do not hear what is going on on the other side. I tried time and time again to penetrate that wall and find out, but I was usually refuted and turned down.
Q. Did you discuss this problem with your colleagues?
A. I did.
Q. Did you discuss it with your managers?
A. Those questions were frequently touched upon at the conferences of managers, and time and time again we would try and think how we could regulate this whole business to bring it to a satisfactory solution. Our decisions were communicated to the agencies who were competent in these things, and all that I can say is that time and again we endeavored to have these matters changed. Of course, we did not have the power to change them ourselves.
Q. Did your work managers ever tell you that the managers discussed the matter with the commandants and insisted on an increase of pay?
A. Yes, as far as I can remember, that happened. In the course of the years, so many things were done by us and in many cases we had to find out that the tendency of the other side was a different one.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, did you not from this constant struggle with the higher and lower agencies get the desire to leave the whole business?
A. Dr. Froeschmann, if you fight for a cause through years and try time and again to achieve something, and if you then have to find out every time that the opposite side for some reason doesn't want to help you, you finally reach the knowledge the whole thing is no good. There is no point in making any more efforts and waisting your energy; and then, of course, it is a matter of course that you feel the best thing is that you leave all this.
Q. Let me ask you another question here. I believe yesterday that you said that you asked Salpeter after he was called up the Wehrmacht to call you after him, as it were, is that correct?
A. Yes, that happened at the time.
Q. And Salpeter promised to do that, but had no success?
A. No, he had no success. He couldn't do it.
Q. Did you make any other attempts to leave DEST?
A. I made a number of attempts to leave DEST behind; later on, in connection with the armament industries I discussed the question how I could extricate myself from all this, but as the SS was so stubborn an organization I did not manage to get away.
Q. A last question in this connection. I seem to remember dimly that you tole me that somebody told you, "Herr Mummenthey, your efforts to throw over all these tendencies and to make unfree inmates into free inmates could be interpreted in a different manner." Weren't you told one such thing by an important man sometime?
A. When architect Fischer, who had been released as an inmate, who was also referred to by witness Bickel, was reinterned, the chief of Office Group D asked me to see him, and he told me, "Well, well, well, we have got Fischer back. And now my dear Mummenthey, let me tell you something, you and your many applications for releases have caught people's eye. Chief of Office D-1 told me about this. What is your intention with those many applications for release? After all, you have your workers. Why do you want to have them released, because, if they are released, they are much more expensive for you."
When I told him then why I did these things he told me "Your activities and your attitude could be interpreted in an entirely different way, too, and you know there is such a thing as favoritism of inmates. You remember that!" And he made the appropriate gesture when he said that, and I saw very well what he meant.
Q. When did all this happen?
A. As I remember it, in 1944.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, I shall leave this chapter now, namely, the compensation for inmates, and I want to ask you a number of questions concerned with certain details. Did you not follow the idea to have the inmates, as far as they were working in the DEST enterprises, put under the care of DEST itself? In other words, to take them out of the camps and accommodate them in some other place?
A. We always tried to have the inmates who worked in our enterprises billeted separately and to look after their feeding and necessities ourselves. We hoped to be able to build accommodations and labor camps of our own near the works. Thereby, we wanted to achieve the situation that the inmates would be taken away from the influence of these large camps and the commandants. Wherever such installations were established later on they proved their worth to the benefit of the inmates, as I could prove by a large number of examples.
Q. I should be extremely happy if you should give us a few such examples.
A. For instance, the labor came near the Bohemia factory. That was roughly what we really planned because if the camp leader, in that camp had been under the orders of the manager this would have been in accordance with our plans.
Q. Did you, by accommodating them in a labor camp, want to look after food, clothing and billeting, and also payment?
A. Yes, we regarded this problem as a whole, and we hoped that the problem would be finally solved. We meant to deal with all these points. In 1940 or 1941, for instance, we suggested to have in Oranienburg -and the suggestion came from the work manager there--a camp established there which would be entirely under our own administration. Thereby we hoped to settle the conflict between our interests and those of the commandants. The suggestion was submitted to Pohl also, and, at first, he agreed to it. Later omit was turned down as not practicable because the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps at the time quite obviously opposed that idea. In 1943 we made another attempt in this direction. This becomes clear from Document NO-1031 which is Exhibit 437 in Document Book 16, on page 52. The suggestion was then concerned with the Roemhill Works which was to be taken over. By that suggestion we wanted to prove that all difficulties and conflicts could be eliminated if you have the plant and the camp under one joint management. In this case, it would be under the works manager since the inmates were entirely under the orders of the commandant, although they worked with us, it might be that through this divided administration there might never be a really satisfactory solution.
The Roemhill Operation was also turned down at the time.
Q. In other words, you have tried through a variety of methods to have your ideas, namely, that DEST should not be a typical inmate enterprise, and that inmates should be given suitable clothing, food and payment?
A. Such were our endeavors through the years, and we gave all our energy to them.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, was this not a form of idealism on your part, the hopelessness of which, in view of the obtuseness of the average commandant, you had to realize? Do you know what I mean?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, were you really sufficiently innocent to believe that you could, and had, to make such suggestions, and did you hope that they would ever be fulfilled, while, on the other hand, you had the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps embarking on its power politics?
A. Had I known that at the time what I know today, I would not have worked one more day, nor would I have had to do that work because, looking back, this was a fight against a windmills, a fight which we fought completely unsuccessfully, as far as we were concerned.
Q. May I explain perhaps what you said just now? Did you want to say, world you say you would have resigned or you would have simply left things as they stood without doing anything against it?
A. I would not have left things as they stood. There was only one thing I could do: resign. And that possibility to resign did not exist, as I saw things.
Q. But then I don't understand what you mean. You said just now, "Had I known all that at the time, I could have chosen only one road:
to do nothing."
If I have understood you rightly you want to say; every minute would have wasted which I gave to this fight because it never had any success." Is that correct?
A. It was a struggle which I would like to call quite useless.
Q. Now, here we have this heavy, Lower-Saxonian manner of yours; you cannot express yourself the way you really want to.
THE PRESIDENT: This will be an opportunity to take the usual recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Herr Mummenthey, first of all let me speak about the general and special conditions of work under which these inmates had to work and which the prosecution used in order to consider you responsible for these acts. First let me ask you, did your activity in Berlin permit you to visit regularly all the plants which were dispersed and distributed all over Germany?
A. In the course of the years I was in various plants. I was us ally in those plants for a few hours. That time for the most part was occupied with conferences and conversations concerning individual points existing between the main administration and the work management. On those occasions I also got acquainted with the enterprises and convinced myself of the progress of work. There never were any discussions with inmates at the time. That was especially for a reason which applied to all of us, that we were not permitted to speak to inmates.
Q. Witness, I shall now come to details. Please take a look at Document Book XVIII and at Exhibit 468. This is Document PS-1153 on page 76. It is a document on Gerstein. It is stated there that in Mauthausen it was customary to have the Jews work in a stone quarry which was rather high up. The witness continues that actually quite a few Jews were thrown down the stone quarry. I should like to ask you, Witness--were you ever told by the works manager in Mauthausen or did you ever fund out in any other way about the fact that Jews worked in the stone quarries which belonged to the Dest and that they were thrown down into that stone quarry?
If you did not hear about it, how can you explain that testimony?
A. I neither saw anything about it nor did I ever hear anything about it from the works managers. In this connection I should like to point out that in Mauthausen, apart from the stone quarries of the Dest, there were also other stone quarries where inmates worked.
Q. Witness, now had such a horrible report come to your knowledge at any time, what would you have done then?
A. I would have done the same thing which I would have done in any other case when something came to my knowledge. That is, I would have tried to help in that situation. If I couldn't do that myself, I would have gone and seen Pohl and asked him to have those things stopped. I acted the same way in every other case about which I heard something.
Q. Wouldn't you also have gone and seen the commander of the concentration camp, had you heard about this case which was nothing but pure murder, and inquired if it was true?
A. The first works manager would have done that; and if he had not been successful in that, I would have done it.
Q. Did you at the time take into account the possibility that such crimes were not caused by the works management or their employees but rather by the guards like Bickel?
A. Mr. Defense Counsel, how could I possibly think about such a thing at the time? How could I possibly think that such things were happening?
Q. Witness, did you hear anything about the rough treatment to which these inmates were being subjected by the guards in Mauthausen at any time?
A. From several works managers, particularly during the first years of my activity there, I had heard that certain mistreatment of the inmates was taking place. The works managers did complain to the concentration camp commander about it; and if they didn't succeed in getting this thing stopped, they reported it to me so that I might possibly intervene and stop it; and this happened in every case.
Q. What were the results of your speaking to the commanders and to other agencies?
A. I believe I can tell you that. In the course of the years, particularly 1943 and 1944, I don't believe that any such things occurred.
At least I did not gain any knowledge about them. I believe this was occasioned by the fact that again and again we interfered with activities on the part of the guards and the block personnel.
Q. Then I would ask you to put this document aside and take a look at document which is PS 2309 which is contained in Document Book 6 and in Exhibit 182. It is on page 122 of the English. That is the report concerning the investigation of War Crimes made by Headquarters, 3rd United States Army, wherein reference in made to Flossenbuerg. It is stated that working and living conditions there were close to a systematic extermination. It can be seen from the document that they are referring to enterprises of DEST or did general quarries exist in Flossenbuerg without any reference to DEST enterprised?
A. I read this document cuite carefully uid I can't find where DEST in mentioned. In this connection I would like to say that I know from the works manager of Flossenbuerg that the camp itself also had a quarry.
Q. Do you agree with the witness Schwarz who with reference to Flossenbuerg stated that they were working there with the most modern mechanized equipment, and working conditions were so pleasant that Flossenbuerg was an exemplary enterprise.
A. From my recollection from the past years I can only tell you that there was only on fatal accident during that time. At least, we in Berlin heard nothing else in this respect. I any case we cleared all prerequisites with the works management in order to eliminate accidents and similar things.
Q. Witness take a look at Exhibit 179 Document NO-2122, which is contained in Document Book 6, it is on page 106 of the English and it states among other thing that the work in the stone quarry in Flossenbuerg could only be borne for ½ year, that working time amounted to 12 to 14 hours a day. What enterprise was this witness Schwarz referring to according to this document?
A. From this document I could not tell you or from which stone quarry he is referring to. As far as working time was concerned he is speaking of working time in the camp. I know from my own experience that the work in Flossenbuerg started approximately at 7 in the morning. Furthermore, there was a break between 12 and 1 o'clock.
They carried out some explosions during the time off and at 5 o'clock we finished entirely and then again they carried out some explosions during 5 and 6. During that time not a single person was allowed in the camp.
Q. Witness I shall now come to the testimony given by the witness Engles Before this Military Tribunal. On pages 738-739 of the German Transcript state there with reference to Kinker works they were working there over 14 hours some time. Do you remember that testimony?
A. Yes I do.
Q. According to your opinion did that testimony by the witness Engler refer to the time when the Klinker Works was in full swing or do you think he is referring to other periods of time possibly to other plants?
A. According to my recollection the testimony did not make it clear whether he talking about the cap or regards to plants itself.
Q. Did you at that time know anything about the Pinker SK?
A. The Kinker SK was no term whatsoever for me. I only heard that term here for the first time from the witness Engler.
Q. Witness, it has also been repeatedly stated hear what the witness Bielsky as contained on pages 329 to 331 spoke about the sand pit in Auschwitz.
A. I already told you in Auschwitz we had neither gravel or sand pit, only dragging machine. I assume that witness was referring to something entirely different.
Q. I would furthermore like to refer to the testimony by the witness Krysiak on pages 440-add 444 of the German record. He testified that people in the stone quarry of Mauthausen had been worked to death. What do you have to say about that.
A. I can remember from the testimony that the witness was speaking of punitive action carried out by the camp which took place on Saturday or Sunday.
Q. I shall that come back later to the punitive details. For the presend this statement of fact should suffice.
Now, testimony has been given by witnesses and also individual affidavits introduced by the Prosecution pointed out that food there was horrible the clothing not sufficient and billeting bad. All these thing brought together with the working places of DEST. What do you have to say about that?
A. I believe that introduction of evidence so far has shown that the DEST, that is to say the economic enterprise, had no influence on those conditions. The works managers in most instances couldn't know what the inmates received in the way of food in the camp proper because after all only the noon meal was distributed in the plants.
Q. I asked the question of the witness Bickel yesterday if the testimony given by the witness Kruse is correct that a labor detail amounting to 2000 men moved out of Neuengamme for work. The witness Brickel stated that testimony was exaggerated. Now hear the testimony given by the witness Engler on page 693 according to which the strength of the labor Kommando in Dest was stated to be 1500 to 2000 human beings. If not can you explain its incorrectness.
A. The statement given 1500 to 2000 maybe approximately correct but the camp itself, however, at that time as the same witness testified had approximately 1200 to 1500 inmates which shows that approximately only 1/8 working for DEST. I have to assume that the other 7/8 worked for other enterprises other that DEST.
Q Witness, were the working conditions there generally speaking, were they the same in all the enterprises of the DEST?
A No, they were not always and at all places the same. They differed depending on the kind of work. For instance, the question was whether the inmates were working in stone quarries, brick factories, porcelain factories or armament enterprises.
Q Now was it with the working time; also generally speaking, was it about the same everywhere?
A No, the working time depended on the local conditions and depended on the branches also, and the plant manager was the one who fixed it on the basis of a general authority he had received from us.
Q We already heard from witness Bickel that inmates were being employed at Neuengamme at a time when the enterprise was being established. Do you agree with him that work at the time was harder work than the work which was taking place in the plants which were operated mechanically?
A I believe that this applies to every large-scale construction that it was more work and heavier work than in the enterprise itself, because after all a lot of earth has to be moved, the building has to be build, etc., etc. Such work can not possibly be avoided in a big industrial complex.
Q Was all this preliminary work manual at the time, or did they already use in those preliminary works machines, trucks, etc.?
AAs far as the warehouse had technical equipment in those fields it was used, but in spite of that there must have been quite a bit of hand work which has to be carried out by hand, and which the inmates presumably considered heavy work. After all, we shouldn't forget that it depended entirely upon the physical condition of the individual, and it also depended on the profession which he had prior to becoming an inmate. Then we also have to think about his assimilation to this type of work.