The basic problem could be found amongst the labor, amongst the workers.
The DEST was a plant which was using inmates, human beings who did not come voluntarily. Starting from that point of view, I didn't mind to sign Document 1276, Exhibit No. 428, in Document Book 16, on page 19 of the English, where this term is used. The works managers had told us about the work which was being done by those inmates, and comparing them with the work done by civilian workers. They described that done by the inmates as being insufficient. The whole thing varied between 5 and 55%. In this connection, I would like to point out Document NO-510, Exhibit No. 426, in Document Book 15, on Page 83. For the production of a free, civilian worker, therefore, you needed a considerable number of inmates. That was due to the fact that they were imprisoned, which lessened both the will-to-work and their possibility to work.
Work is a necessity which was given to us by God as is contained in the bible. It is by the sweat of the brow that you will earn your bread. However, work makes you feel cheerful, even though it is hard work--if the work is done with pleasure. It was such a pleasure that was missing the part of an inmate.
I realized that work which was being demanded from inmates as a whole was unproductive and it was not exactly fit to change the attitude of a human being. Fundamentally, I couldn't actually tell you when those ideas started drawing in my brain. It might have been in 1939 or 1940. In any case, thought, I simply couldn't get rid of the idea from that moment on how I could possibly help the inmate to become a free man again in the easiest manner. I looked upon this as a pioneer task in my life which arose my particular interest.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take the recess, Dr. Froeschmann. Just a minute.
MR. MC HANEY: If the Tribunal please, I wonder if the examination can't be made a little more pointed. Dr. Froeschmann makes usually a rather broad, general statement about problems in connection with in Court No. II, Case No. 4.mates, and then asks for a comment from the witness.
I don't know what the witness is going to say. I really don't know What question has been asked. I have no opportunity to make objections as to materiality. And also the witness is straying way off the point. He has been talking for seven minutes in response to the last question, and I gather all he is saying is that the inmates weren't very productive, and that his problem was to make them more productive. But it took him seven or eight minutes to bring that out, and it is not quite clear to me yet. He started talking about the basic problem being labor, and then he talked about five or six inmates--and I still don't know what the basic problem is.
So, if we could get a rather brief, sharp pointed question and a responsive answer it would certainly be more intelligible to me.
THE PRESIDENT: And to the Tribunal. But you see the witness has prepared, obviously, a statement from which he is reading, and all Dr. Froeschmann does is to introduce him to the document--and he goes on from there. We have tried to take a different course earlier in the session, but this is the plan that has been prepared and we are just submitting to it. It is taking too much time. It isn't directed at the point, but apparently, over months, this plan of presenting this case has been prepared.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, with these statements, I simply wanted to give the defendant Mummenthey, as a witness, to explain to the Tribunal how he came to deal with the treatment of inmates. The witness would have told the Tribunal in a few minutes that he didn't want to use inmates in the DEST plants because he started out from that point of view which he had been describing all the time. It was for that reason that the defendant Mummenthey, as a witness in his own behalf, would have described the entire development of his ideas to this Tribunal We are almost through; it will take only about two or three sentences more.
THE PRESIDENT: How long are the sentences?
Well, you need not answer.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. FROESCHMANN: No, the sentences will be very shorty.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead.
DR. FROESCHMANN: There will be short answers.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, in order to shorten those questions, I am going to ask you the following. Is it correct that it was your aim to enable the prisoners to return soon as to status of a free-worker? You can answer that question by saying yes or no.
A Yes.
Q Is it furthermore correct that very few of the inmates were stone carvers or were experienced brickmakers?
A Yes, that is quite correct as far as the criminal and the anti-social elements were concerned. That does apply.
Q Is it correct that there was a lack of such experienced workers in the German brick industry?
AAround that time there was a great lack of such skilled workers in Germany, as could be seen from publications.
Q Don't you therefore think it economic nonsense to use political prisoners who were to be in the camp for only a short period of time, that they be used for work in that industry in order to use them at a later date?
A I looked upon those categories as not fit for work in the DEST, particularly due to the fact that they were to be released shortly.
Q And was it your endeavor to use a staff of skilled workers for the DEST?
A That was our task, yes.
Q Were the political inmates fit for that?
AAs I said before, no.
Q What categories of inmates did you actually want to use?
A I already referred to the categories of the anti-social and criminal elements.
Q Were these inmates to be taught to become stone carvers?
A In order to carry out that task, a large program was initiated.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q What was the aim of this instruction program?
A The idea was to again make free, human beings out of those inmates, to give them an opportunity to have a profession of their own and to earn their own bread--and not to commit the same crimes they had committed before.
Q Did you make any such suggestions while you were having conferences with Salpeter to change the DEST, namely, from using inmates and to possibly employ anti-social elements and professional criminals after they had been released?
A Yes, I did.
Q These inmates who were now trained, were they to receive special privileges?
A That large program did not limit itself to only stone carvers but also to skilled workers in stone quarries and brick workers. It had been provided, first of all, that practical and theoretical training in the enterprises of DEST would be given. They were to receive payments, depending on how much they worked and based on the wage scales which applied to the civilian workers. Furthermore, they were to be released after signing statements that they would work as free, civilian workers of the DEST. Inmates were to receive certain privileges of all kinds, even during this period of time when they were receiving their training, namely, when they wouldn't be carrying out work in the camp, they would have time off.
Q In a sense, did they start immediately with the training the way you described it?
A This program was put down in a special memorandum which was made available to the concentration camp inmates, whereupon a report was made.
Q Will you please repeat that, Herr Mummenthey? I asked you if that training was actually put into effect.
A The entire program was published in a memorandum and it was made available to the inmates of the concentration camps. A large number of people reported, volunteered, particularly professional criminals. I Court No. II, Case No. 4.couldn't tell you if there were any other categories amongst them.
Q Did you appoint a specialist or an expert as the man in charge of this training course for re-education?
AAn expert was employed for this purpose. His name was Kaiser; he was a stone carver, and he was the one who carried out this task in an exemplary manner.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, I have an affidavit by this Kaiser, and I will introduce it to the Tribunal at a later date. Everything can be seen from that about this training program.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1400.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.
AFTERNOON SESSION KARL MUMMENTHEY - Resumed
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Herr Mummenthey, we stopped when you were formulating your ideas to Salpeter to take the inmate character away from DEST. Now, did you come to an agreement with Salpeter to the effect to submit this idea to Pohl?
A Yes, we did that.
Q Did you personally submit these ideas to your superior agency either in writing or orally?
A Yes, I did that both in writing and orally.
Q When was that?
A 1940 or 1941.
Q What was the attitude taken by Pohl toward this idea?
A He seemed to be in agreement.
Q Did Pohl discuss it with Eicke?
A Yes, he did. Eicke, however, was of a different opinion.
Q Witness, will you please look at Document NO-385 which is Exhibit 54. You will find it in Document Book III on page 43 of the English book. Reference is made there to a Himmler order of 5 December 194l which contains the training scheme. Is this document connected with the suggestions which you and Salpeter transmitted to Pohl?
A From this document I see that apparently it was based on the suggestions and reports to Pohl.
Q Himmler, in other words, agreed to your idea?
A Yes, I can say that particularly from paragraphs 1 to 4 on page 2 of the document.
Q Now, witness, we have a document on the other hand, Document PS-654, Exhibit 333, in Document Book XII, page 28 of the English edition. This is the notorious Thierack document. How is the rela tion between that document and Document 385?
I only want you to give your personal opinion.
A I saw this document for the first time in this trial and heard for the first time of the ideas it contains. It is in stark contrast to the document which is Exhibit 54 and it hits out against the ideals which we submitted.
Q Can you explain to the Court who was addressed by this document? Purely anti-social elements are being referred to here. Are they the same anti-social elements we spoke about yesterday?
A No, quite different categories are mentioned here.
Q What categories are mentioned here?
A Jews, Russians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Poles and Gypsies.
Q Were all of these categories named by you just now anti-social elements, in your opinion?
A Never.
Q Is it correct for me to say that the term here used by Thierack namely, anti-social elements is a particularly perverted part of the national socialistic ideology?
A Yes, you can say that.
Q You say that this was in stark contrast to your own opinion. On this occasion I want to ask you did the management of DEST and you, in particular, at any time toy with the idea or translate into action to have inmates destroyed by their work in the plants?
A That idea is so absurd and is in such contradiction to everything that we did and wanted to do -
Q Have you finished?
A Yes.
Q I waited because you said it was so absurd. I thought you wanted to finish the sentence.
Now, witness, you can see from his Honor's question this morning, namely, that you were reproached with that fact that these inmates when they had to work in your enterprise had to do their work without proper compensation.
What do you have to say about that problem? The problem, I mean of compensation for inmates, its motivation, its amount, and the way they were paid out.
A I took the attitude toward Dr. Salpeter and the managers that between BEST and the inmate no contract existed which is the reason DEST was not under obligation to pay wages. It was up to the Reich to pay some compensation to the inmates from what DEST paid to the Reich by way of compensation for inmates, and we regarded it as contribution to various expenses borne by the Reich.
Q What were the various contributions which the Reich had to incur for the inmates?
A This is what the Reich had in the way of expenses: billeting, feeding, clothing, medical care, and compensation to the inmate. These expenses had to be listed on the Reich budget but I don't know all the details here.
Q Do you know in what way the Reich or shall we say the Reich agency concerned, received the money necessary?
A No, I know nothing about that.
Q Was it your opinion that the Reich had to pay the inmates in the same manner as they did, for instance, for the wages for workers employed in Reich enterprises?
A Yes, roughly like that.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Just a moment. Don't you know that the Reich paid 30 pfennigs a day for the services of the inmates of the camp, or 30 pfennigs was paid by DEST to the Reich?
A Yes, at the beginning.
Q Well, did they ever pay any more than that?
A Yes, it was increased currently until it reached in the end 4 to 6 marks.
Q Wasn't that just bookkeeping and actually never paid?
A The amount was actually paid out, Your Honor, a transfer was carried out from the bank to the administration of the concentration camp.
Q That's right - a transfer and the inmates never received any of it.
A I don't know the details here, Your Honor, as far as the bookkeeping of the Reich was concerned.
Q But you know what the inmates got?
AAll I know is that we paid a voluntary contribution to the inmates which we added to the amount paid to the Reich.
Q You mean that later on you allowed the inmates for extraordinary good work a bonus certificate which they could buy small items with in the PX of the concentration camp if there was anything there for them to buy?
A That so-called bonus, Your Honor, as I remember was given to every inmate who worked for us and the total amount of these bonuses reached as I remember about 1/3 or 1/4 of the total amount which we paid to the Reich. For instance, if we paid an annual amount of 300,000 marks to the Reich the inmates received from us about 100,000 marks.
Q In what form?
A The banks had to transfer this amount to the administration of the concentration camp and issue back so-called bonus vouchers. They were issued to the inmates in turn.
Q And they could buy nothing with this certificate if there was nothing in the PX for them be buy.
A If Your Honor please, we could not pay them cash because the administration of the concentration camp took the attitude that we must not give cash to inmates.
Q I am not bothered about why you couldn't pay it to them, I am just asking you for a fact, that you paid them no cash, that you gave them a bonus certificate with which they could buy small items in the PX if there happened to be anything there for them to buy. If there was nothing in the PX for them to buy the certificate was worthless. Now, is that right or not?
A I was not so familiar with the concentration camps for me to answer your question in precise detail. I can only give you one example from 1944 where a manager told me once that the inmates, instead of the vouchers, wanted us to buy goods for them, which we did.
Q What kind of goods?
A In that case the inmates wanted to have tobacco.
Q And where was the tobacco obtained from?
A We obtained a voucher from a Reich agency, tobacco.
Q. And for how much?
AAs I remember it a truckful of tobacco goods arrived.
Q For how many people?
A Some hundreds, I should think.
Q You mean some several thousand?
A In this case, as I remember it, some hundreds, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q There is nothing in any of the documents that confirms your state ment that an inmate received anything for his labor, that he could buy anything with, except if there was something in the commissary or PX that he could buy with a certificate.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Witness, you stated that inmates could not receive cash because of certain security instructions. Wherein did security lie, in cash being paid to an inmate, wherein was security threatened?
A Your Honor, the camp explained it to us in this way, and I can only assume the explanation actually. Perhaps the camp wanted to prevent the inmate to use the cash when he wanted to escape, but that is my assumption.
All I can base myself on is what the camp administration told us at the time, that for security reasons they would not allow us to pay cash to the inmate. At the beginning we paid cash to them.
Q How long did this last?
A From 1940, '41 until 1942 approximately.
Q Do you have any document which shows that to be a fact; can you refer to any document?
DR. FROESCHMANN: May I interpolate here, Your Honor? Had I completed my document books I could submit now seventeen document where a number of persons, managers and inmates, would bear our what Mummenthey has just told you. I regret to say that the Translation Section is so overworked that my document books are not ready yet, otherwise my whole case would be much simpler. And perhaps, may I make one more remark, if Your Honor please, I am sufficiently frank to say that when I took over the defense I had the same misgivings which the Tribunal has just voiced, where are the documents, how can you prove it, and Herr Mummenthey referred me back to his managers. I still had my doubts at that time, and I interviewed all these managers and questioned them closely. I am now quite certain that these statements are truthful.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Pray continue. Do you want to say something?
AAfter the payment of cash had been prohibited by the camp another method was chosen. We transferred the amounts to the camp. There they were put to the credit of the inmates on a bank account and the inmate could dispose in a variety of ways about that amount. As I remember it he could transfer it to his family if he wanted to. The third method chosen was the one I described, the one with the bonus voucher.
Q Witness, in the document the term "wages for inmates" and the term "compensation for inmates", and unless I am very much mistaken, the term "payment for production time by inmates", is that merely playing with words, or are we concerned here with different things?
What was your own attitude toward these things?
AAs in my opinion no proper contract existed between DEST and the inmate, we did not describe this amount as wages. We merely called it a compensation in order to make reference to the work done by the inmate.
Q Was there not another motive also which decided you to insist on an increase of these payments?
A It was my view that people outside might think that DEST all over their enterprises working with inmates might, by their apparently small overheads, make enormous profits or cut prices. All these elements decided me all the time to insist on an increase of the compensation payable to the Reich. I think I may say that last but not least it was due to my efforts to have these compensations constantly increased with BEST so that it finally reached the amount of six marks for the skilled worker and four marks for the assistant worker.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, this is always the amount that you paid to the Reich that you are speaking of?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the amount which we paid to the Reich. It was our intention thereby that the Reich would be put into a position of paying the inmate well. We regarded that amount as a contribution for the overheads incurred by the Reich.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You don't think, Witness, that the Reich would ever pay a Russian Jew one pfennig for working a year, do you?
A I did not know that at the time, if Your Honor please. Today, of course, I have to assume it.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, go ahead. I won't interrupt any further.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, Aid the voluntary contributions which you made in 1940 and 1941 continue by Office Group D-II in 1942 and 1943?
A The whole system of bonus vouchers which we introduced with DEST in 1940 and 1941 within the scope of training for inmates for skilled workers was taken over by D-II after its establishment and in the shape of what was known as a bonus system made an obligation to all enterprises which employed inmates.
Q It would appear that on the whole you agreed to what Defendant Baier has told us here.
A Yes, we have both the same attitude in these things.
DR. FROESCHMANN: If Your Honors please, I have no further questions about the topic of compensation for inmates. If the Court wants to put any more questions I shall gladly step back for a moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have one or two.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q You quoted from the Bible this morning, do you remember, about "By the sweat of thy face thou shalt live"?
A Yes, I do.
Q You should have turned the page over and have read, "The workman is worthy of his hire." You didn't read that, did you?
A Yes, I remember that quotation, and that was always my attitude.
Q Well, of course the concentration camp inmate couldn't live on your attitude. It all boils down to this, doesn't it, that these people, most of whom were not Germans, were working for mere board and room, for food and shelter only, and second they had no opportunity to change that agreement or contract, but they had to keep working behind barbed wire for mere food and shelter. That is all they ever got.
A If Your Honors please, what could be done by us to alleviate the lot of the inmates has been done as far as I can see it.
Q That has nothing to do with my question. I am trying to get the facts of the situation of the plight of the inmate.
He had to work for scanty food and poor shelter and he couldn't stop.
A We did not have the power to change all that, Mr. President.
Q That isn't the question here now. You will answer this or we will sit up all night. It is a fact, isn't it, and you answer this question directly please, that the inmate got nothing for his labor except something to eat and a place to lie down, and second, if he didn't like that bargain he had no power to change it.
A The inmate could not change it, no.
Q Well, you have answered half of it. Now, the first half, the inmate got nothing for his work except scant food and poor shelter.
A Mr. President, what I remember from those years is not the picture which has become clear in this Court, namely that food and accommodation had been quite so bad.
Q Well, leave that out. He worked for food and shelter, good or bad.
A Mr. President, from my own knowledge I can not tell you what the inmate received from the camp. All I can tell you is what we gave him. I know, therefore, I do not know, therefore, whether perhaps the Reich credited their accounts for something. I really don't know.
Q. Qh, come now. You don't mean that. You know that the inmates didn't get anything to send home or put in their pocket. They were just kept alive so they could work, you know that, don't you?
A. Mr. President, I was not that familiar with the concentration camp to answer your question.
Q. Why, you managed the industries that used these men to work, a number of industries, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you mean to say that you have no idea whether these inmates got any money for their labor or not? Now, do not be rediculous, answer truthfully.
A. Mr. President, from what I know at that time I cannot say how the concentration camp gave anything to the inmates. All I can tell you is what I saw from my own sphere of work.
Q. All right, you should be wiser today. Are you convinced now that the inmates got nothing for their work except food and shelter?
A. Mr. President, what I know since the collapse is so enormous and my impression of what I gained is so considerably changed. I now know things which I did not know at the time, nor was I in the position to know them at the time.
Q. I am glad that your eyes have been opened. Now, that they are open, are you convinced that the inmates got nothing out food and shelter for their 11-hours'-a-day-work? Do you believe that now?
A. I am convinced of this today, yes.
Q. All right. Well, I call that slavery. What do you call it?
A. Looking backwards, you can call it that, yes, retrospectively.
Q. Well, I know you can call it. Wasn't it slavery?
A. I did not regard it as such at the time.
Q. You have an opinion today, this minute, have you not?
A. If I look on this problem retrospectively, I have reached that same opinion, yes.
Q. That it was slavery?
A. Looking retrospectively, yes, looking back from today, yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, looking back from today, speaking as one member of this Tribunal and only for myself, if you had as much to do with the workings and the labor of as many concentration camp inmates as you admit that you did have, you are in grave danger of being guilty of criminal negligence in not finding out more than you did find out. A man can't sit idly by and have things like this happen and say, "I didn't know," when he could have found it out by reasonable diligence. That is only speaking for one member of the Tribunal and not for the whole Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, Dr. Froeschmann, the subject is yours.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May I perhaps rest on this point one more moment.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, the last question put by His Honor, Judge Phillips, deserves an answer from you. The reproach has been made that you, because you neglected to do your duty, because you did not fulfill your right and your duty to ask questions, neglected your duty at that time. You should have found out what the inmates really did get for what they did in the camp. I wanted to ask you later on about this problem, but I shall avail myself of the opportunity of doing it now.
What steps did you take, whom did you see, how did you go about it in order to form a precise and well-informed opinion of what inmates would get, and what was the answer that you did get or didn't get, as the case may be?
A. I tried to find out in the course of the years, but I was never given a satisfactory reply.
Q. From whom did you try to find out?
A. I asked Dr. Salpeter when he was with us.
Q. Who else?
A. Later on, the Chief of Amtsgruppe D.
Q. What did they tell you?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first what did you ask them?
A. What the inmates got, what sort of compensation, in the form of a bonus.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Did you contact Office Group D-II and draw their attention to the fact that which you did originally, that the amount of 30 pfennigs, 2, 4 and 6 marks was, in your opinion, not adequate compensation for work done by the inmates, and therefore it should be increased and handled differently, did you do that?
A. I pointed out and I stated that I regarded this amount only a contribution to the overheads of the Reich.
Q. And what was the answer you were given?
A. That it was to be handled in the future.
Q. To improsive one question. I don't know what really happened. Were you told this was none of your business, or were you told, "Yes, certainly, we will look after this. We think this is a very good idea...." and so forth?
A. If I discussed such matters concerned with the allocation of inmates, I was very frequently told that this was none of our business.
We should mind our own business. This was not part of my duties, but was exclusively responsibility of the RSHA or the Office Group D respectively.
Q. In other words, is it true as the witness Bickel told us yesterday that between the tendencies of the RSHA, this powerful political organization, and your own tencies of an economic and social character, an iron curtain was drawn in between?
A. I sometimes felt as though I was knocking my head against a wall, beyond which you cannot see and you do not hear what is going on on the other side. I tried time and time again to penetrate that wall and find out, but I was usually refuted and turned down.
Q. Did you discuss this problem with your colleagues?
A. I did.
Q. Did you discuss it with your managers?
A. Those questions were frequently touched upon at the conferences of managers, and time and time again we would try and think how we could regulate this whole business to bring it to a satisfactory solution. Our decisions were communicated to the agencies who were competent in these things, and all that I can say is that time and again we endeavored to have these matters changed. Of course, we did not have the power to change them ourselves.
Q. Did your work managers ever tell you that the managers discussed the matter with the commandants and insisted on an increase of pay?
A. Yes, as far as I can remember, that happened. In the course of the years, so many things were done by us and in many cases we had to find out that the tendency of the other side was a different one.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, did you not from this constant struggle with the higher and lower agencies get the desire to leave the whole business?
A. Dr. Froeschmann, if you fight for a cause through years and try time and again to achieve something, and if you then have to find out every time that the opposite side for some reason doesn't want to help you, you finally reach the knowledge the whole thing is no good. There is no point in making any more efforts and waisting your energy; and then, of course, it is a matter of course that you feel the best thing is that you leave all this.
Q. Let me ask you another question here. I believe yesterday that you said that you asked Salpeter after he was called up the Wehrmacht to call you after him, as it were, is that correct?
A. Yes, that happened at the time.
Q. And Salpeter promised to do that, but had no success?
A. No, he had no success. He couldn't do it.
Q. Did you make any other attempts to leave DEST?
A. I made a number of attempts to leave DEST behind; later on, in connection with the armament industries I discussed the question how I could extricate myself from all this, but as the SS was so stubborn an organization I did not manage to get away.
Q. A last question in this connection. I seem to remember dimly that you tole me that somebody told you, "Herr Mummenthey, your efforts to throw over all these tendencies and to make unfree inmates into free inmates could be interpreted in a different manner." Weren't you told one such thing by an important man sometime?
A. When architect Fischer, who had been released as an inmate, who was also referred to by witness Bickel, was reinterned, the chief of Office Group D asked me to see him, and he told me, "Well, well, well, we have got Fischer back. And now my dear Mummenthey, let me tell you something, you and your many applications for releases have caught people's eye. Chief of Office D-1 told me about this. What is your intention with those many applications for release? After all, you have your workers. Why do you want to have them released, because, if they are released, they are much more expensive for you."
When I told him then why I did these things he told me "Your activities and your attitude could be interpreted in an entirely different way, too, and you know there is such a thing as favoritism of inmates. You remember that!" And he made the appropriate gesture when he said that, and I saw very well what he meant.
Q. When did all this happen?
A. As I remember it, in 1944.
Q. Herr Mummenthey, I shall leave this chapter now, namely, the compensation for inmates, and I want to ask you a number of questions concerned with certain details. Did you not follow the idea to have the inmates, as far as they were working in the DEST enterprises, put under the care of DEST itself? In other words, to take them out of the camps and accommodate them in some other place?