Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q What was the result?
A The result was anything but pleasant. DEST, as I found out, owned far too little capital, bearing in mind the task it had to fulfill. The building contracts were highly unfavorable for the enterprise. Above all, it seemed to me that DEST was run on a completely haphazard and amateurish way, and the simplest commercial, organizational bases were lacking. Bookkeeping, for instance, where I could form an impression, I had to describe as antediluvian, filing hardly existed. There was no financial clarity of any sort. Contracts had not been observed, and the employees were far too less in number and in many cases their qualifications were hopelessly inadequate.
Q Did you write a report about what you found out?
A I reported from a purely legal point of view. I described the conditions as I found them. I drew attention to the dangers which would become acute if matters would be allowed to go on. Dr. Salpeter, who, as I said before, was, formally speaking, the founder, and was therefore interested, of course, in the economic progress of the enterprise, showed that he was appalled by what I reported to him.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess, please, Dr. Froeschmann.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1345 hours, 4 August 1947.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 4 Aug.
1947).
KARL MUMMENTHEY - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FROESCHMANN: (Counsel for the Defendant Mummenthey) Your Honor, first of all, I have a request to make.
Your Honor, I would like to make a request. My document books I and II were handed in on the 15th of July and the 23rd of July to the Translation Division, and they have already been translated. Now, they only have to be multiplied. I am unable to present my defense so clearly and so completely if I cannot submit these document books to the Tribunal immediately after I have concluded my examination of this witness, Mummenthey.
I, therefore, would like to ask the Tribunal and the Secretary-General's office to see to it that this work is completed as quickly as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is a good deal like asking the Secretary-General go down and scold somebody because they are not ready. They will be here just as fast as they can get them out.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Very well, Your Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Mr. Mummenthey, before the noon recess we were discussing your assignment which you received by Salpeter. We were discussing the report which you submitted at that time. I would like to add in this connection that you did submit this report to Salpeter, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it also correct that Salpeter passed on this report to Pohl?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. What were the immediate results of the presentation of this report by way of Salpeter to Pohl?
A. As a result of this report, Pohl ordered and examination of DEST by neutral experts in commercial, financial and technical respects. At the same time, Pohl ordered the establishment, ordered that the DEST should establish its own legal department, and Dr. Salpeter put me in charge of that department. In this capacity I now became a Prokurist of the DEST.
Q. Who were the experts who, by virture of Pohl, were employed?
A. They were Moeckl and Schondorff who were employed.
Q. You mentioned the name Schondorff. Do you know that the personality of Schondorff has already been described here to a certain extent by various witnesses?
I ask you now, witness, to give the Tribunal your description of Schondorff, just characterize him very briefly.
A. Since Schondorff had very much influence on me later on in the DEST, I request permission that in this place I can add something to what has already been said about that subject. As it has already been stated here before, Schondorff was a lecturer at the technical school at Lippe, as far as the brick works were concerned. He was older then I, and he had more experience in life. He was very critical of all things. He did not tolerate anybody next to him having equal privileges. In carrying out his aims and plans he was very efficient.
His closest collaborators always were his former students, and they, of course, would always comply with his wishes. He would have disputes within a short period of time with other experts who did not come from the school. These disputes could never be solved, and no compromise was reached--they were just forced to leave his office. He had frequent disputes with Salpeter and, later on, with Opperbeck.
In the technical field, Schondorff without any doubt was extremely capable. However, he had a tendency, as it frequently happens with technicians, to carry out a lot of experimentations. He had several patents in his name for artificial drying of bricks, and in various brick works this method was successfully used.
In any case, among experts in that field his personality was disputed. In order to solve the technical problem at Oranienburg, this for him was a certain examination as far as his knowledge in brick processing was concerned.
Q In the meantime was Dr. Salpeter appointed the co-manager of the DEST?
A Before these examination reports were submitted or while the examination was under way, Salpeter was also appointed Assistant Business Manager and thus he was placed ahead of Ahrens by Pohl.
Q What was the result of the expert examination?
A This examination confirmed the unfavorable conditions which I had described in my report and the worried I had included there. It was determined that the three brick works were not functioning well. Furthermore, there was no regular planning. This was done for the most part for the main works and no organization existed for them. The plant administration were not made up of the correct personnel. For the most part the financing was inappropriate and inadequate.
Q In this connection, I ask you to look at Exhibit 22 of the Prosecution. This is Document NO-542, Exhibit No. 22. Does this report contradict it? Does it stand in any connection with the report you submitted at the time in your opinion?
A It represents approximately the findings which were made at that time.
Q I need not go into any details with regard to this report since it is known to the Tribunal. It will be sufficient for me if you confirm the fact to me that this report for the most part contains what the experts discovered in their investigation and what the results were from this report. I want to go briefly into the connections between Pohl and Schondorff. We have heard here that Schondorff occupied in a certain way a special position by virtue of a contract which Pohl had given to him. I now want to ask you, is it correct that Pohl considered Schondorff to be the man who of the deteriorating works of the DEST in the technical respect could realize the goal and was to realize the goal which Pohl wanted to fulfil, is that correct, and what do you have to say on that subject?
A Yes, that is correct. Pohl and Schondorff came from the Ruhr Area. Pohl considered Schondorff to be the man who would in a technical respect change the works of the DEST into the big enterprises of construction material industries. In very large dimensions; he was the man who was to realize this goal. Between Ahren and Salpeter at the time by virtue of suggestions made by Schondorff, and, since the bookkeeping experts made the investigation, long negotiations were carried out. They did not reach any agreement. Pohl therefore broke off the connections between the DEST and Ahrens and in the spring of 1939, Ahrens left the enterprise with the Prokurist Tietjen. At the same time Pohl ordered Dr. Salpeter to carry out the re-organization of the DEST.
Q What were the aims which Salpeter wanted to realize in fulfilling this reorganization task?
A He believed that the reorganization of the DEST could be completed within two years at the latest. There seemed to be two problems in existence for him. There was a technical problem and a commercial financial problem. In a technical respect, Dr. Salpater accepted Schondorff's suggestions, according to which by excluding the construction firms the reconstruction of the organizations could actually be carried out and the works could now use the water processing procedures as a change from the dry pressing procedure.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honors, in the meantime, I have to make a request. I have to do this by virtue of a note which I just received. The Defendant Volk has had a very light heart attack. I request that the Defendant Volk be excused from this afternoon session immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course. Will the Marshal assist him?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you, Your Honor. Please continue Mr. Mummenthey.
A (Continued In a commercial financial respect this new method of bookkeeping and by taking up long term banking loan, the previous difficulties were to be eliminated.
Q In what did Salpeter see the possibility of carry out this reorganization? What was the basic reason?
A He wanted a strict centralization of the direction of the individual enterprises. Therefore, he established a main administration office at Berlin and at Oranienburg his own construction agency, in order to carry out the construction tasks. He believed that now he would be able to centralize the entire administration in his hands and on the strength of uniform planning to become an economic success for the enterprises which were distributed all over the country.
Q Did Salpeter consult you within this discussion of reorganization and to what extent?
A He appointed me his collaborator so that we could collaborate in this task according to the individual instructions which he gave me.
Q Mr. Mummenthey, with regard to the centralization of the enterprises, did you agree with Salpater's opinion, or did you maintain a different point of view?
A From the very beginning in accordance with my attitude, I was apposed to this centralization. I saw a sound economic development only in a decentralized enterprise. That is to say, I wanted the enterprises to become independent and self-sufficient according to their location. I therefore suggested to Dr. Salpeter that the entire administration of the plants be put into the hands of plant managers. However, for the time being he was never convinced of my opinion.
Q What about the financial problem?
AAlso in this respect I maintained a different attitude from that which Dr. Salpeter held. My ideas and suggestions about the financial problem first of all went to increase the capital of the enterprises; two, the delivery of goods to the consumers and then the coordination of these advanced payments by finished product three, a separation of enterprises which did not operate in the same field of work; and four, the financing by interested persons, and the plants should be operated on a rental basis instead of acquiring the property right away, with the view to be able to acquire then at a later date.
Q To what did you activity between 1939, 1940, and 1941 extend?
A For the most part, it extended to the solution of the contracts which we had ended with the construction firms and the rendering of decisions in legal matters and then these decisions were often made after the procedure had pended for a year.
Q Were you able during the time the offer rode, to use this expression of Salpeter, to make any decisions of your own, or just how was this done?
AAs a result of the character of Dr. Salpeter which I have already described, that in all matters of importance he wanted to make his own decisions, during my entire activity, I was extremely restricted. I was tied to the instructions which were given me from case to case. My activity, therefore, was subordinated to Dr. Salpeter, without my having authority for independent decisions, however, also without responsibility for the plant. Things like, for example, the allocation of inmates, I did not occupy myself with during the first part of my activity.
Q Witness, will you please take a look at the supplement of Exhibit 427, Document 1034, which is contained in Document Book XVI on page 7. It is Exhibit 427. It is Document 1034. It is in Document Book XVI on page 7. Does this document give you any reason to make and additional statements at this time?
A On page 11 of this document, under the heading "Field of Work", it was stated here that the management of the enterprises according to the instructions of the Chief of the Main Office, Administration and Economy, or the Chief of Office III -A had to be carried out in that way.
Q Therefore, during the activity of Dr. Salpeter, you only held a subordinate office and you were tied to the instructions which you received from Salpeter, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q However, during the same time the activity of Schondorff, whom you mentioned before, developed gradually in another direction. What can you say about that?
A In contrast to my subordinate position, even if I had the title of Business Manager, Schondorff had an outstanding position within the DEST. As Pohl has already confirmed on the witness stand, he received a very big contract from him and also sufficient financial funds. Such a contract was hardly conceded to anybody else in an economic enterprise of the DEST, G.m.b.H.
Q How did the relations between Salpeter and Pohl develop in the years 1940 and 1941?
A During this period of time there were constant disputes in economic and financial questions of the DEST. I shall refer to these matters later on. I think that I am right in saying that Schondorff here had a decisive influence which was not always favorable. For Schondorff money was of no importance. Salpeter, on the other hand, wanted to have a sound and solid development of the enterprises together with me. When conditions began to be intolerable for Dr. Salpeter gradually he succeeded with the assistance of relations with SS brigadefuehrer Zimmermann to receive a furlough and he was able to have himself conscripted to the Economic Staff East. Now for the time being he was able to get away from the DEST. This process was uniform. Since I lacked the necessary contacts I was unable to imitate this, although I tried to do that on many occasions. I had discussed the matter before with Dr. Salpeter so that I could take the same step.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honors, as soon as the document book has been completed I shall show the Tribunal an affidavit of Zimmermann where the correctness of the statement just made by the witness will be proven.
Q (By Dr. Froeschmann) When did Salpeter leave the DEST?
A That was in September, 1941.
Q While he was gone did you deputize for Salpeter? Were you Salperter's deputy?
A No, I was not Salpeter's deputy. For the duration of the time when Dr. Salpeter was with the Werhmacht, I was appointed to replace him, together with a certain Opperbeck. We had a position of a General Plenipotentiary with the DEST and both of us deputized for Dr. Salpeter, while he was gone. Opperbeck could not be appointed business manager of the DEST, because he was tied to another enterprise.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honors, in this connection, I would like to refer to Document NO-1009, Exhibit 433, Document Book XVI on page 30 and it is on page 31 of the English Document Book. This document shows that at the time Mummenthey, together with Opperbeck, took over the direction of W-I, they were deputized for the Office Chief Salpeter.
Q (By Dr. Froeschmann) please continue, Witness.
A From the fall of 1941 the direction of the so-called Office W-I and the leadership of the DEST and also Bohemia and Allach, which at that time from the organizational point of view, had been included in the DEST, were in the hands of Opperbeck and myself. In accordance with instructions received from Pohl, we had divided up our fields of work in such a way that Opperbeck took over the porcelain and brick works and I took over the granite works in financial, commercial, and legal respects. In this connection, I would like to state that immediately after the departure of Dr. Salpeter the Bohemia, Allach, and Forbach, which actually did not belong in the DEST, by order of Pohl were included in a group of firms with the DEST.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your honors, in this connection I refer to Document NO-1261, Exhibit 385, which is contained Document Book XIV on page 34 of the English text where the reorganization of the offices has been mentioned, just as the witness has described to you.
Q (By Dr. Froeschmann) Did Opperbeck remain with the Dest or did he leave also?
A Opperbeck left us in April or May of 1942. In connection with this, Schondorff and Schwarz were appointed Assistant Business Managers, so that now in the DEST we had four business managers, including Dr. Salpeter, who was away at the time.
Q When did Salpeter return?
A He returned, approximately, in the summer of 1943.
Q Did he resume his activity with the DEST?
A No, in a formal sense he remained Business Manager until 1944. However, after his return, he became Chief of the main office in the WVHA. That was Office A-III. For this measure it may have been a decisive factor that Dr. Salpeter and Schondorff were unable to get along with each other.
Q After Opperbeck left just how were the fields of task divided?
A It was done approximately in the following manner. Schondorff, who at the beginning only was the technical director of the brick works, later on was also put in charge of the technical management of the porcelain enterprises and the technical director of the granite works. Schwarz was in charge of the Central Personnel and Contingent and Transportation Office and he also was in charge of the central distribution. I was in charge of the legal department and the auditing department. Later these departments became so small since personnel was conscripted for front line duty that now there were only very small offices and they had been assigned to two experts and their clerks.
Q How was the collaboration between you, Schwartz, and Schondorff?
A My position towards the other two assistant managers was not very easy. Schwarz had a very high party emblem and he was also related to a very high SS leader. Schondorff enjoyed a special privileges, since he had such good connections with Pohl. He knew very well how to exploit the special position which he occupied, especially towards Schwarz, whom apparently he did not like very much. After Dr. Salpeter had been conscripted in the Wehrmacht Schondorff supported his position still more. The fact that Pohl also gave special privileges to technicians made it easier in that field. Also, in fact, his work was more appreciated than mine.
Q Mr. Mummenthey you have just now mentioned the fact that Salpeter wanted to centralize the enterprises while you wanted to have them decentralized. Were you able to realize your ideas, or did you try to realize your ideas after Salpeter had gone to the front?
AAfter Dr. Salpeter left, I occupied myself mainly with decentralizing the enterprises of the DEST as quickly as possible. This work became extremely difficult, since we recieved new instructions constantly, which overlapped in some cases or we would receive orders from Pohl which would deal with one project or another.
To what extent we had to deal with difficulties which arose from orders from above and to what extent this results from Schondorff's influence. I can only assume.
Q Mr. Mummenthey, in the course of the following years, did any further difficulties arise which slowly made it impossible for you to perform any plant work with the DEST?
A In the course of the later years of the war my task became increasingly difficult since we had this connection with the arament industries. As a result of the execution of various industries, we had to negotiate with many other enterprises and other agencies and now we had to discuss the process of manufacturing arament goods and there were constant changes in the program. Then we received certain time limits and frequently we were threatened to be given the penalty of death if we were unable to keep a certain time limit, and then the war situation became increasingly bad as well as the air attacks and the difficulties which arose in the various enterprises as a result of these air attacks.
Q.- Did you also have difficulties with regard to procurement of material?
A.- Yes. We also had these difficulties. Then the Main Administration was bombed out several times and finally had to use a barrack at Oranienburg for its headquarters. Constantly civilian workers were taken away and the reduction in administrative personnel from 170 to 24 employees now really had its effect. For this entire condition which prevailed for years, I only used the expression here that it actually was run like things in a lunatic asylum. Then I looked at all these conditions everywhere which I can say made it impossible for me to carry out any plan to work. This applies particularly to 1944 and the beginning of 1945. However, part of this also arises in 1943. We have to consider all these conditions which prevailed and we must look at them from the point of view, - that the DEST from the time of Ahrens and Salpeter and also through the influence of the general building inspector, the Reich Minister Todt, and the plenipotentiary for the communications system constantly received new assignments as to reconstruction of facilities and construction of new facilities. Now, in the end the DEST included approximately 14 of new facilities. Now, in the end the DEST included approximately 14 enterprises and these enterprises consisted in various parts of many plants.
Q.- Mr. Mummenthey, all these tasks now rested on your shoulders. As a result of this were you still able to regularly visit the plants and to have discussions for hours or for days with the plant managers about conditions which prevailed in the plants. Were you able to get any precise information any more?
A.- No, that was no longer possible. The Main Administration of the DEST which at the same time represented Office W-I as far as its personnel was concerned in the course of time this personnel had been reduced. From 1943, or at the latest from 1944, it only consisted of a very small supervisory staff. The actual work in all cases was only handled by the plants themselves.
The Main Administration only interfered when the plant administration could not handle the matter any further, whenever fundamental questions had to be decided. Then the passing on of news was also a deciding factor. It became increasingly difficult throughout the last few years.
Q.- Mr. Mummenthey, now you have told us about your career in DEST until the end of the War. You have now given us a general outline about that. I am now coming to the subject which has already been dealt with very much in detail in this trial and no clarity has as yet been established. In your position and with your personality I would have you deal with this point - your conception of the term office chief?
THE PRESIDENT: You are going to clarify that, Dr. Froeschmann, are you?
DR. FROESCHMANN: I only want to deal with it very briefly.
THE PRESIDENT: By all means do. It is so confused we have been looking for somebody to clarify it and you are apparently the man.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Yes, your Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. Mummenthey, I don't want to hear any explanation from you just what Fohl was thinking of at the time since you can't have much knowledge of that. From you I only want to hear just what you considered you now title Office Chief of W-I to mean. Will you please give us your opinion about that?
In order to do this it will be necessary for you to look at the organizational chart of the WVHA. It has been offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 111.
Also I would like to point out several mistakes which are contained in this chart. This chart is from the year 1942. At the time Dr. Salpeter was still the office chief in a formal sense because he was only away on detached service to the Wehrmacht and I was only his deputy. Consequently on this chart in the first place Salpeter's name should have appeared and I should have been listed only as his deputy.
In fact I have been listed here as office chief and to that extent this chart is not correct. Under W-I/2 it has been stated: six stone quarries - it should read actually granite works. The Victoria porcelain AG has been listed here. However, it never belonged to the WVHA in any form.
Q.- Do you know the reasons which motivated Pohl to divide the WVHA into various offices?
A.- I don't know the reasons, which causes Pohl in 1942 to organize a group of firms under the WVHA and to give them titles of offices.
Q.- How can you explain the fact that Pohl did that?
A.- I believe that I am not wrong in assuming, that these offices and office chiefs only corresponded to his military concepts which he had gained when still working in the Navy. He was working there with the office of military administration. If Pohl had come into the WVHA in my opinion Pohl might have named the offices in WVHA the way he wished. In the commercial and legal character of the firm nothing would have been changed as a result of that.
As a legal expert I was used to seeing sharply and expressed title in private institutes. As an economic expert I also knew titles for enterprises in economic life. For me it was never understandable just how a private company could be called an office and its manager be called an office chief. Furthermore, my deputizing together with the other business manager this theory of office chief for me alone without the consent of another business manager was not possible to give any legal instructions.
Q.- What was your office designation - what did it mean to you office Chief of Office WI. What did it mean to you?
A.- It was purely functional for me. As Chief of Office W-I I was not in any legal public relationship of the Reich or the Party. I only had a private working contract with DEST-GMBG, with the title of office chief. I did not have any official function and had no civil service function whatsoever.
In the W offices no official titles could be maintained. So-called orders from the chief were instructions from the chief of the Main Office Pohl. I only felt myself tied in so far as Pohl even if he called himself chief of Main Office. In these orders for me he was only the business manager of the holding company DWB. In this connection I would like to point out briefly, and that has been already mentioned, that between the DWB and BEST Bohemia and Allach a so-called corporation contracts existed. According to this the first company I mentioned was a holding company and the last two companies corporations.
Q.- Mr. Mummenthey, we don't have to frame the details of the business interest of the DWB. Since according to the statement of the Tribunal of several gays ago the fact was established that the business companies did not become effective. However, in this connection I would like to ask you did you have any positive opinion with regard to the office chief, or is that possible?
A.- In conclusion I would like to state that everyone of the witness and the defendants here has had a different opinion about the position of W chiefs. It is just like looking through a kaleidoscope where by through a simple mechanical effect, you have a constantly changing picture.
Q.- In conclusion can I say that you were of the opinion that the designation office and office chief was nothing by a purely functional title he thought up himself and took along with him from his former profession. Could I complete the point in saying that if Pohl previously had been director of a circus then probably he would have talked about departments or something similar without this having any effect on the character of DEST?
A.- Yes.
Q.- I have completed the fact of clarity first. I have no further questions in this regard. I am now coming to the actual chapter which refers to the allocation of Inmates of DEST itself.
I am now coming to the foundation, the purpose and economic and legal structure. Mr. Mummenthey when you entered DEST in 1939 did you know the story about the foundation of the development of DEST?
A.- No, not at first.
Q.- Later on did you hear any thing about that and if you did what did you hear?
A.- Later on on one occasion.
THE PRESIDENT: We are all feeling the effect of this terrific heat, and I think we are justified in shorting this afternoon's session in the hope that tomorrow will be a different day. We will recess now until quarter after three, and then we will convene and run until four o'clock and recess for this day.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1515.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for defendant Mummenthey):
Q. Witness, please continue in your description about the reasons which led to the establishment of the DEST, as far as you know them?
A. Dr. Salpeter, at some later date, told me when we discussed the credit negotiations with the German Gold Discount Bank about the original and development of the DEST. From the files which I saw later on I learned quite a few interesting facts. I was in a position, therefore, to form an impression which should, on the whole, be correct, even if it is not completely prove able down to the last detail.
Hitler, as everybody should know, was always very interested in architecture. As time went on this inclination became a veritable obsession. As his power grew, his plans grew also. The Reichsautobahnen, the Reich Motor Highways, or large bridges were built such as the one across the Elbe, near Hamburg, the buildings on the Reich Party Rally grounds in Nurnberg, the big stadium in Berlin, and other big cities, and soon this was combined with plans to rebuild certain German cities such as Berlin, Hamburg, Weimar, and others.
Hitler found in Speer, who later on became a Reich Minister, and in Todt, the director of the OT, a willing audience for his plans. These two men complied with Hitler's wishes, and within the scope of the Four Years Plan, they drafted extensive architectural plans. The executions of these plans depended on the available material, of course. The capacities of the existing industries was not sufficient to cover the requirements. The project of the Elbe bridge, near Hamburg, alone would have required at least 240, 000 cubic meters of granite stones, if it could be carried out at all. That requirement was tantamount to the total production of the German granite industry for three years.
The German Brick Natural Stone industry was operating on an obsolete basis. Since 1914 its construction activities had become very small owing to the war and the economic collapse. Most enterprises also lacked capital. Modern big works which could produce adequately did not exist. Speer, who knew what Hitler wanted, probably convinced Himmler that the risk involved in these collosal enterprises was considerable in view of the extra-ordinary requirements of construction materials, and private industry would not be in a position to take over these plans. He suggested that this should be turned into a government project.
This idea probably met Himmler's desire to become powerful. Hoping that the Inspector-General for the Reconstruction of German Cities, Speer, would support him financially, Himmler decided to have brick and granite works established, and by mechanization to increase their capacity beyond all expectations. Himmler was quite aware of the fact that, in order to meet these enormous requirements, Germany did not have enough labor. In his capacity as chief of German police, he, of course, was aware of the fact that in concentration camps there were thousands of inmates who were kept by the Reich without performing any productive work. Therefore, it was a logical thing for him to decide to use these inmates as workers.
As things calmed down politically, inmates, of course, would be reduced in numbers. What would remain would be the criminals and what was known as the "anti-socials."
Q. What do you mean by "anti-socials?"
A. If in my further statements I use that term more frequently, I mean by that people who were loafers by profession and inclination, pimps, notorious drunkards, beggars, tramps; people, in other words, who, according to common practice in Germany, for decades were forcibly detained in workhouses.