They talked to us and were receptive to what we told them, until the next propaganda speech restored their former peace of mind again.
Q Therefore your knowledge is confined to a particular sector among the German people?
A No, our knowledge went quite beyond what the German people themselves knew because we had unlimited -- in our eyes unlimited -possibilities of receiving news by radio.
Q You therefore had means which a large part of the German people did not.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A They would have had the same means had they had the same will as we had.
Q That is your assumption, a quite subjective opinion, is it not?
A Yes, quite so.
Q What is the truth?
A What is a human being?
Q Well, you could say where was the truth and what is the truth. Do I understand-
A I am afraid we are losing ourselves in philosophy.
Q Do I understand you correctly, that you, on the basis of the communications and experiences, you formed the impressions of which you have given us this picture here?
A Yes, I have endeavored to speak objectively, such as we have learned from the Allies, and which is the first condition if you want to be Democrats.
Q Witness, one of my colleagues asked you how it came about that you were examined before this Court, and you told us that at the time you wrote to the Prosecution and to Mummenthey's defense counsel, whose name you did not know, that you were at their disposal as witness.
A It is quite correct. It is only for the fifth time I am telling you this.
Q Yes, quite so. All I wanted to state was that I heard from you in the course of this year that you were quite ready to appear as a witness, and that you also told me that you had also informed the Prosecution of this.
A Yes, I don't think anybody could be fairer. I don't think that the SS would ever have been quite so fair as we have been to them.
Q Is it also correct that even then, and not only under the impression of conversations, you emphasized that you regarded it as your duty to tell the Court anything and everything which might be favorable to Mummenthey?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A If you want to describe facts, you cannot be influenced either in the good or the bad sense of the word. I don't think that you have gained the impression that any good or bad influence can be exerted on me. Facts are so tremendous that only history will form the proper picture. No influence can be exerted in this or in another way.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May it please the Court, I have no further questions to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions by any defense counsel?
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, have you finished?
MR. McHANEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused then.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just a minute.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Witness, on a point of information, will you please tell me the numerical strength of a block? I presume it varies according to the camp, according to the make-up of the camp, but just tell me generally what is the strength of a block?
A Generally it was to comprise 150 men, that is to say, one hut. As conditions grew worse we were as many as 600 men in one block.
Q And how many men did a capo control?
A That depended. There were capos who were in charge of two to three hundred, and there were some who were only in charge of five or six men. For instance, in a craft shop, electrical workshop, there was a capo who was in charge of two, three or five men, but in the harbor detachment a capo would be in charge of one hundred or two hundred men who worked on earth-removing detachments.
Q Did the unit which the capo controlled have a distinct name?
A Yes, each unit was named by the activity on which it embarked; for instance, the electrical detachment, concrete detachment, the heater detachment, etc.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q From what you tell me it would seem that the capo was limited in his leadership to work details. Did he not also have charge of these same men in the concentration camp barracks?
A They only supervised labor detachments. In the camp itself they had nothing to say, because the blocks, the huts and barracks, the so-called block leaders were the ones in charge. Subordinate to them and their assistants were the so-called "room leaders" (Stubenalteste).
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, the witness may be excused from the witness stand.
(Witness excused.)
DR. FROESCHMANN: May it please the Court, I request that Mummenthey should be the next witness on the witness stand.
KUNZ ANDREAS EMIL KARL MUMMENTHEY, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Repeat after me, please.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May it please the Court, I would like to remark quite generally that Mummenthey in the last few years lost his sense of hearing in the right ear through an illness. I therefore, hope he will be excused if he seems to have difficulties in understanding a question.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Herr Mummenthey, please give us the date of your birth, the place of your birth.
A My name is Kunz Andreas Emil Karl Mummenthey. Karl is my first name.
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on the 11th of July, 1906 in Aue, in the Ore Court No. II, Case No. 4.Mountains, in Saxony.
Q Is that the same Aue which lately has made news because of the - in connection with the forced labor camp and the uranium discoveries there?
A Yes, that is quite correct.
Q Please tell us very briefly about your youth.
A I grew up in Aue and in Olbernhau in the Ore Mountains. My ancestors on my father's side came from lower Saxony. They settled near Hannover, and they can be traced back to the Fourteenth Century. We were impoverished because of the Thirty Years' War. For centuries they were miners in the Harz. My ancestors on my mother's side hail from the Erzgebirge, the Ore Mountains, and from Frankonia. They were usually craftsmen. In our family history the fate of the German people is mirrored in its ups and downs through the centuries.
Q You are, therefore, a mixture of the heavy and serious people of lower Saxony and the same orderly and reserved character of the people of Frankonia.
A Yes, that is right.
Q Will you please give us a brief description of your upbringing at home?
AAt home my upbringing was strict and modest.....
Q What was your father?
AAlthough my father was a member of a cooperative bank, on the board of directors of a cooperative bank. Genuine religiousness and practical Christianity and absolute truthfulness is what I found in my parents to follow as an example. At an early date I had to start work in order to learn about the seriousness of life.
Q What schools did you go to?
A In Olbernhau in Saxony I went to the elementary school up to the eighth form.
Q And after that did you go to the Commercial College in Chemnitz?
A Yes.
Q Is that correct?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes, I visited that college from 1921 to 1924. The area around Chemnitz was in old days one of the most highly industrialized ones in the whole of Germany. It was called the Saxonian Manchester. As a result of the inflation I was unable to visit that high school beyond my first graduation, although I had been a very good pupil and could have skipped one year.
Q What did you do after you left school?
A I was apprenticed with the Olbernhauer Volksbank between 1924 and 1926, and my father supervised me there. As the expression goes, I learned from the bottom of the ladder all branches of the banking business, and the principles of a conscientious and orderly banker were impressed upon me.
Q Did you then go to a university?
A Yes, my parents made it possible by leading an economic life for me to go to a university. After 1926 until 1933 I studied in Frankfurt am Main, in Kiel and Leipzig, first of all economics and social science and later on law. In 1928 I took one year's leave in order to prepare my matriculation. In the same year I actually did matriculate at the Oberrealschule in Dresden-Johannstadt.
Q Now, Herr Mummenthey, we have now reached a period of time which was to be of great importance for your future life. Just a moment, please, did you, while you were at the university, gain any experiences about administration of punishment?
A Yes. This is how that came about. The legal faculty of the Kiel University once arranged for a trip to Hamburg in order to inspect the penal institutions there, which were supposed to be particularly up to date. The impressions which I gained there I shall describe later on.
Q When did you pass your first legal examination in Leipzig?
A That was in 1934. I thereupon took up a preparatory legal service occupation and became an assistant to the courts, in district courts, the Prosecutions, in Burgstaedt, Chemnitz and Leipzig.
Q Did you during that period of time take part in any practical training courses?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes, such courses were being held at the time in order to show the various types of penal institutions, particularly in Waltheim and in Banzen.
Q Is it true that in 1937 when you had finished your preparatory status you made your final legal examination?
A Yes, that happened at the end of 1937.
Q What were your intentions at that time as to the choice of a profession?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AAs I had this particular professional training, it was my intention to become a solicitor and return to a bank; but at that time this was made particularly difficult by new decrees. In order to be admitted as a solicitor, you had to work for four years as an assistant with another firm of solicitors. In order to expand my personal horizon, I looked for the possibility to combine these four years' assistantship with the professional activity which other colleagues of mine were doing also. Through an advertisement in the official Gazette of the Lawyers League, I established contact with Dr. Salpeter. At that time, he was in charge of the legal department in the Administrative Office of the SS in Munich. He was about to be admitted as a solicitor in Berlin. He was just about to settle in Berlin as an attorney. He offered me the opportunity of becoming his assistant, and simultaneously, a civilian employee in the legal department of the Administrative Office of the SS. As his personal impression was impeccable, and the way in which he described the work which I had to concern myself under his supervision moved me to avail myself of this offer.
Q Therefore, you left the Reich Trustee Services and on 1st of February 1938, you went as a legal assistant to the legal department of the Administrative Offices, is that correct?
A Yes, that is quite correct.
Q Herr Mummenthey, we heard frequently during this trial the name of Dr. Salpeter. A number of witnesses have made statements about him. Is it true that Salpeter since 1938 and until 1941 was your superior and that from 1939 to 1941 he was in charge of the destiny of DEST, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Will you please, very briefly, give us the impression which you formed of Salpeter's character and his work during the period of time when you were with him and under him?
A His character, I should like to describe briefly, in its essential features. Dr. Salpeter was considerably older than I was, he was much more experienced in life than I was. In the first two years, Court No. II, Case No. 4.I regarded him, as it were, as my teacher and tutor.
From the beginning of my work for DEST, I was his managerial secretary (Direktionssekratar) as one calls it in German industrial life. As time went on, I was to find out that there were a number of fundamental points where we differed fundamentally. Dr. Salpeter was a trained merchant and also a fully trained legal lawyer expert. This double training of his did not consolidate his character, but rather made him feel uncertain of himself. The result of this was that his aims and decisions were extremely unreliable and elastic. For instance, he would make a decision in the morning and rescind it in the afternoon. That made it very difficult to work with him. His decisions were dictated more by his mind and less by any inner sentiment. That applied particularly to all questions concerned with personnel. His mood varied. He was usually extremely reserved toward his subordinates. He was not very open, in fact, he was reserved, and in many official or business matters not very communicative. He wanted to deal himself with everything. He really was more of a professional expert, and he did not understand how to let his collaborators work according to their talents and qualifications so that the joint achievement would be satisfactory. He would never drop the reigns. In that respect, he was extremely selfish, and he guarded jealously his position. He wanted to be regarded as an idealist, but he was ambitious and tried to explain the measures he took with the National-Socialist ideology as an embellishment.
Q What were Salpeter's aims in life?
AAs far as I could find out, his aim was quite obviously to combine military and economic principles in administrative matters and to have DEST as an enterprise like a government department. This proved to be impossible.
Q Well, that is enough about Salpeter's character, and I would like to ask you -- you married in 1939?
A Yes.
Q And you have two children who are now 4 and 7 years of age?
A Yes, quite so.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You were married in church and your children were brought up on a Christian basis?
A Yes, quite so.
Q Now, Herr Mummenthey, we shall now talk about your tasks with DEST in '39, between 1939 and the autumn of 1941; that is to say, the period of time when, as the Court has already learnt in this trial, you immediately took your leave in order to go to the front. I should like to ask you what were your duties, first of all, in the legal department of the Administration Office of the SS and later on with Salpeter?
A In the legal department of the Administrative Office of the SS, I worked mainly on giving expert opinion on contracts of all types. I also had to look after other legal matters.
Q Now, as we have heard, Salpeter and a man called Arenz were the founders of DEST in 1938, is that correct?
A Yes, quite.
Q Then he was the sole manager, then Arenz was sole manager until the spring of 1939, is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
Q Now, did DEST in the meantime between '38 and '39 have begun to build or reconstruct certain plants?
A In that period of time, the new construction of Berstaedt and Oranienburg, as well as the reconstruction of Neuengamme, were begun. A number of building films had been entered into for important contracts.
Q But you were still in the legal department of the Administrative Office of the SS. How was it that you went over to DEST, what was the event that made that come about?
A Toward the end of January 1939, Dr. Salpeter gave me the orderpresumably at the suggestion of Pohl-to substitute for Arenz who was on a month's leave; and on that occasion, to look into some of the confused legal matters of DEST.
Q Did you, while Arenz was away on a month's leave, try to gain a general impression of conditions in DEST?
AAs far as that was possible, I did so.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q What was the result?
A The result was anything but pleasant. DEST, as I found out, owned far too little capital, bearing in mind the task it had to fulfill. The building contracts were highly unfavorable for the enterprise. Above all, it seemed to me that DEST was run on a completely haphazard and amateurish way, and the simplest commercial, organizational bases were lacking. Bookkeeping, for instance, where I could form an impression, I had to describe as antediluvian, filing hardly existed. There was no financial clarity of any sort. Contracts had not been observed, and the employees were far too less in number and in many cases their qualifications were hopelessly inadequate.
Q Did you write a report about what you found out?
A I reported from a purely legal point of view. I described the conditions as I found them. I drew attention to the dangers which would become acute if matters would be allowed to go on. Dr. Salpeter, who, as I said before, was, formally speaking, the founder, and was therefore interested, of course, in the economic progress of the enterprise, showed that he was appalled by what I reported to him.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess, please, Dr. Froeschmann.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1345 hours, 4 August 1947.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 4 Aug.
1947).
KARL MUMMENTHEY - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FROESCHMANN: (Counsel for the Defendant Mummenthey) Your Honor, first of all, I have a request to make.
Your Honor, I would like to make a request. My document books I and II were handed in on the 15th of July and the 23rd of July to the Translation Division, and they have already been translated. Now, they only have to be multiplied. I am unable to present my defense so clearly and so completely if I cannot submit these document books to the Tribunal immediately after I have concluded my examination of this witness, Mummenthey.
I, therefore, would like to ask the Tribunal and the Secretary-General's office to see to it that this work is completed as quickly as possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is a good deal like asking the Secretary-General go down and scold somebody because they are not ready. They will be here just as fast as they can get them out.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Very well, Your Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Mr. Mummenthey, before the noon recess we were discussing your assignment which you received by Salpeter. We were discussing the report which you submitted at that time. I would like to add in this connection that you did submit this report to Salpeter, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And is it also correct that Salpeter passed on this report to Pohl?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. What were the immediate results of the presentation of this report by way of Salpeter to Pohl?
A. As a result of this report, Pohl ordered and examination of DEST by neutral experts in commercial, financial and technical respects. At the same time, Pohl ordered the establishment, ordered that the DEST should establish its own legal department, and Dr. Salpeter put me in charge of that department. In this capacity I now became a Prokurist of the DEST.
Q. Who were the experts who, by virture of Pohl, were employed?
A. They were Moeckl and Schondorff who were employed.
Q. You mentioned the name Schondorff. Do you know that the personality of Schondorff has already been described here to a certain extent by various witnesses?
I ask you now, witness, to give the Tribunal your description of Schondorff, just characterize him very briefly.
A. Since Schondorff had very much influence on me later on in the DEST, I request permission that in this place I can add something to what has already been said about that subject. As it has already been stated here before, Schondorff was a lecturer at the technical school at Lippe, as far as the brick works were concerned. He was older then I, and he had more experience in life. He was very critical of all things. He did not tolerate anybody next to him having equal privileges. In carrying out his aims and plans he was very efficient.
His closest collaborators always were his former students, and they, of course, would always comply with his wishes. He would have disputes within a short period of time with other experts who did not come from the school. These disputes could never be solved, and no compromise was reached--they were just forced to leave his office. He had frequent disputes with Salpeter and, later on, with Opperbeck.
In the technical field, Schondorff without any doubt was extremely capable. However, he had a tendency, as it frequently happens with technicians, to carry out a lot of experimentations. He had several patents in his name for artificial drying of bricks, and in various brick works this method was successfully used.
In any case, among experts in that field his personality was disputed. In order to solve the technical problem at Oranienburg, this for him was a certain examination as far as his knowledge in brick processing was concerned.
Q In the meantime was Dr. Salpeter appointed the co-manager of the DEST?
A Before these examination reports were submitted or while the examination was under way, Salpeter was also appointed Assistant Business Manager and thus he was placed ahead of Ahrens by Pohl.
Q What was the result of the expert examination?
A This examination confirmed the unfavorable conditions which I had described in my report and the worried I had included there. It was determined that the three brick works were not functioning well. Furthermore, there was no regular planning. This was done for the most part for the main works and no organization existed for them. The plant administration were not made up of the correct personnel. For the most part the financing was inappropriate and inadequate.
Q In this connection, I ask you to look at Exhibit 22 of the Prosecution. This is Document NO-542, Exhibit No. 22. Does this report contradict it? Does it stand in any connection with the report you submitted at the time in your opinion?
A It represents approximately the findings which were made at that time.
Q I need not go into any details with regard to this report since it is known to the Tribunal. It will be sufficient for me if you confirm the fact to me that this report for the most part contains what the experts discovered in their investigation and what the results were from this report. I want to go briefly into the connections between Pohl and Schondorff. We have heard here that Schondorff occupied in a certain way a special position by virtue of a contract which Pohl had given to him. I now want to ask you, is it correct that Pohl considered Schondorff to be the man who of the deteriorating works of the DEST in the technical respect could realize the goal and was to realize the goal which Pohl wanted to fulfil, is that correct, and what do you have to say on that subject?
A Yes, that is correct. Pohl and Schondorff came from the Ruhr Area. Pohl considered Schondorff to be the man who would in a technical respect change the works of the DEST into the big enterprises of construction material industries. In very large dimensions; he was the man who was to realize this goal. Between Ahren and Salpeter at the time by virtue of suggestions made by Schondorff, and, since the bookkeeping experts made the investigation, long negotiations were carried out. They did not reach any agreement. Pohl therefore broke off the connections between the DEST and Ahrens and in the spring of 1939, Ahrens left the enterprise with the Prokurist Tietjen. At the same time Pohl ordered Dr. Salpeter to carry out the re-organization of the DEST.
Q What were the aims which Salpeter wanted to realize in fulfilling this reorganization task?
A He believed that the reorganization of the DEST could be completed within two years at the latest. There seemed to be two problems in existence for him. There was a technical problem and a commercial financial problem. In a technical respect, Dr. Salpater accepted Schondorff's suggestions, according to which by excluding the construction firms the reconstruction of the organizations could actually be carried out and the works could now use the water processing procedures as a change from the dry pressing procedure.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honors, in the meantime, I have to make a request. I have to do this by virtue of a note which I just received. The Defendant Volk has had a very light heart attack. I request that the Defendant Volk be excused from this afternoon session immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course. Will the Marshal assist him?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you, Your Honor. Please continue Mr. Mummenthey.
A (Continued In a commercial financial respect this new method of bookkeeping and by taking up long term banking loan, the previous difficulties were to be eliminated.
Q In what did Salpeter see the possibility of carry out this reorganization? What was the basic reason?
A He wanted a strict centralization of the direction of the individual enterprises. Therefore, he established a main administration office at Berlin and at Oranienburg his own construction agency, in order to carry out the construction tasks. He believed that now he would be able to centralize the entire administration in his hands and on the strength of uniform planning to become an economic success for the enterprises which were distributed all over the country.
Q Did Salpeter consult you within this discussion of reorganization and to what extent?
A He appointed me his collaborator so that we could collaborate in this task according to the individual instructions which he gave me.
Q Mr. Mummenthey, with regard to the centralization of the enterprises, did you agree with Salpater's opinion, or did you maintain a different point of view?
A From the very beginning in accordance with my attitude, I was apposed to this centralization. I saw a sound economic development only in a decentralized enterprise. That is to say, I wanted the enterprises to become independent and self-sufficient according to their location. I therefore suggested to Dr. Salpeter that the entire administration of the plants be put into the hands of plant managers. However, for the time being he was never convinced of my opinion.
Q What about the financial problem?
AAlso in this respect I maintained a different attitude from that which Dr. Salpeter held. My ideas and suggestions about the financial problem first of all went to increase the capital of the enterprises; two, the delivery of goods to the consumers and then the coordination of these advanced payments by finished product three, a separation of enterprises which did not operate in the same field of work; and four, the financing by interested persons, and the plants should be operated on a rental basis instead of acquiring the property right away, with the view to be able to acquire then at a later date.
Q To what did you activity between 1939, 1940, and 1941 extend?
A For the most part, it extended to the solution of the contracts which we had ended with the construction firms and the rendering of decisions in legal matters and then these decisions were often made after the procedure had pended for a year.
Q Were you able during the time the offer rode, to use this expression of Salpeter, to make any decisions of your own, or just how was this done?
AAs a result of the character of Dr. Salpeter which I have already described, that in all matters of importance he wanted to make his own decisions, during my entire activity, I was extremely restricted. I was tied to the instructions which were given me from case to case. My activity, therefore, was subordinated to Dr. Salpeter, without my having authority for independent decisions, however, also without responsibility for the plant. Things like, for example, the allocation of inmates, I did not occupy myself with during the first part of my activity.
Q Witness, will you please take a look at the supplement of Exhibit 427, Document 1034, which is contained in Document Book XVI on page 7. It is Exhibit 427. It is Document 1034. It is in Document Book XVI on page 7. Does this document give you any reason to make and additional statements at this time?
A On page 11 of this document, under the heading "Field of Work", it was stated here that the management of the enterprises according to the instructions of the Chief of the Main Office, Administration and Economy, or the Chief of Office III -A had to be carried out in that way.
Q Therefore, during the activity of Dr. Salpeter, you only held a subordinate office and you were tied to the instructions which you received from Salpeter, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q However, during the same time the activity of Schondorff, whom you mentioned before, developed gradually in another direction. What can you say about that?
A In contrast to my subordinate position, even if I had the title of Business Manager, Schondorff had an outstanding position within the DEST. As Pohl has already confirmed on the witness stand, he received a very big contract from him and also sufficient financial funds. Such a contract was hardly conceded to anybody else in an economic enterprise of the DEST, G.m.b.H.
Q How did the relations between Salpeter and Pohl develop in the years 1940 and 1941?
A During this period of time there were constant disputes in economic and financial questions of the DEST. I shall refer to these matters later on. I think that I am right in saying that Schondorff here had a decisive influence which was not always favorable. For Schondorff money was of no importance. Salpeter, on the other hand, wanted to have a sound and solid development of the enterprises together with me. When conditions began to be intolerable for Dr. Salpeter gradually he succeeded with the assistance of relations with SS brigadefuehrer Zimmermann to receive a furlough and he was able to have himself conscripted to the Economic Staff East. Now for the time being he was able to get away from the DEST. This process was uniform. Since I lacked the necessary contacts I was unable to imitate this, although I tried to do that on many occasions. I had discussed the matter before with Dr. Salpeter so that I could take the same step.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honors, as soon as the document book has been completed I shall show the Tribunal an affidavit of Zimmermann where the correctness of the statement just made by the witness will be proven.
Q (By Dr. Froeschmann) When did Salpeter leave the DEST?
A That was in September, 1941.
Q While he was gone did you deputize for Salpeter? Were you Salperter's deputy?
A No, I was not Salpeter's deputy. For the duration of the time when Dr. Salpeter was with the Werhmacht, I was appointed to replace him, together with a certain Opperbeck. We had a position of a General Plenipotentiary with the DEST and both of us deputized for Dr. Salpeter, while he was gone. Opperbeck could not be appointed business manager of the DEST, because he was tied to another enterprise.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honors, in this connection, I would like to refer to Document NO-1009, Exhibit 433, Document Book XVI on page 30 and it is on page 31 of the English Document Book. This document shows that at the time Mummenthey, together with Opperbeck, took over the direction of W-I, they were deputized for the Office Chief Salpeter.