Q Did you ever see any inmates carried out dead from their work in the claypits, and from their work there in different points of the Klinker Works?
A I saw many dead inmates. However, the work in the claypit, in order to make it a very objective statement, as long as the claypit was owned by the plant, the work-detail showed no particular increase in the mortality rate, and this was due to the following reason: In the claypit only strong people could work; only people could work there who by virtue of their profession were qualified for that sort of work. It was part of the task of the inmates who directed the classification in their work to classify people accordingly. The man who worked in a mine in civilian life, was not put at a machine, nor was he given a job in an office. That worked the other way around, also. As long as the claypit specialized in certain work, the inmates were selected accordingly. You will find strong Russian peasant boys and mining exports who know something about that work. However, when a commander later on used his punitive company, this did not apply any more, because the checkup in a punitive way varied.
Q Did they have a cage in which they put inmates who committed some dereliction while they were working? There had been some testimony here that they had a wire cage in which the guards would put the inmates who were found malingering on the job, and who had done something that was forbidden, and leaving them in there during the noon hour, particularly, I think. Do you know anything about that?
AA cage existed in the Klinker works at Neuengamme in the year of 1942. That was immediately after the period of the quarantine. Extraordinary bad living conditions existed at that time; the inmates had no food whatsoever, and at that time it occurred many times that many inmates would collapse because of exhaustion and hunger. Our first Capo by the name of Stockmar would have the inmates which were collected put in one place, and this was done for the following reason:
The inmates who were not capable of working any more, who were about ready to collapse, had a tendency to hide, because they were afraid that if they could not work they would be mistreated, or beaten to death. They would fall asleep whenever they were in hiding, or, they would die in the evening after completion of work. A rollcall would be held at the Klinker Works before the return to camp, and then a certain number of people would be missing. We had a lot of work as they had to look for the people until we had found them, and the entire camp had to stand at attention for that entire period of time, even though we had 10,000 men. Now the Capo was a very bad man. He had a cage constructed, and it was approximately as long as the Tribunal's desk, and, in depth it was a little more than the distance from the wall to the Tribunal's bench, and it was as high as the door behind the Tribunal's bench. The front of this cage was made out of meshwire. The inmates who collapsed during working hours had to be put in the cage. The Detachment Leader by the name of Bruening, who recommended or approved the suggestion by this Capo gave the permission to do that. This cage, however, was only kept for at the most fourteen days, because we opposed this measure of treating the inmates, and I don't know whether it was called to the attention of the construction manager at the time. I think it was the construction manager by the name of Korff, who stated at the time, that this could not go on, and this cage disappeared. We, personnally could not say anything against this first Capo, because it would have meant sure death for us. It would be easier to object to the Emperor than to the inmates who were in command of the detachment, especially, if they came from a lower circle of humanity.
Q Let's go into another point for awhile. Did not the defendant Mummen they know that the penal company took over the work in the claypit up to 1943?
A I don't think that he knew that. However, I can not answer this question positively with a yes or no. There is no reason to assume that he had to know it.
If he had known it, then he would not have had any cause to alleviate this condition.
Q Let's don't speculate whether or not he know, witness. All he has got to know, or to do, was to find out, was to ask his work managers there, is that right, Mr. Bickel?
A Please?
Q To find out that they were using the penal company to mine claypit, all he had to do was to ask you, for example, or a plant manager, is that right?
A Yes.
Q That is all. Now then, it is true, isn't it, that the Klinker Works was the beneficiary of the working performance by the penal company, is that true, witness?
A It did not benefit in an actual sense, because that clay had to be processed, and compensation for the inmates amounted to more if the Klinker Works could have used their own inmates for that. It was our experience that the inmates in the punitive detachment came from particular circles, and they were not so much suited for the work than the inmates whom that plant should have assigned to the claypit.
Q Just a minute, Mr. Bickel, I don't think it is necessary to discuss all of this. Isn't it true that the penal company mined the day that was used by the Klinker Works, that is true, isn't it? -
A Yes.
Q And the Klinker Works did not pay for that labor, did they?
A Yes, they did have to pay for it.
Q I understood from your testimony today that the Klinker Works had nothing to do with the penal company in a general way for that labor. Was I mistaken in that?
A Yes. The Klinker Works had nothing to do with the punitive company, but the concentration work superintendant had to submit a report of the work carried on by the inmates every month who had been furnished by this concentration camp for the claypit.
That was a very strange condition here, that the Klinker Works had to pay for the inmates labor, and actually it did not have to, because of the number of inmates employed. The entire efficiency is typical of any other bad organization.
Q Now what is your testimony concerning the average physical condition of the inmates employed in the Klinker Works. Would you testify their condition was good?
A The physical condition of the inmates in the German concentration camps was abnormally bad on an average, with the exception of a few persons who had spent many years in the camp, and they had the right contacts, and they had the preferred positions, but aside from these people, most of the inmates were undernourished.
Q And that condition existed in the Klinker Works, is that true, Mr. Bickel?
A The inmates who came from the concentration camps, were in the same average physical condition which existed in a concentration camp.
Q And is it true that a substantial number of these inmates who worked in the Klinker Works died from exhaustion, malnutrition, and lack of hygienic care in the camp?
A The number of inmates who died for these reasons was the same particular average as in our working places, and it was a little more favorable in the Klinker Works, because the average person there had a pleasant occupation. It was more pleasant than the usual work that was done in the camp.
Q But would you say that on an average, they had roughly the same percentage of deaths amongst the inmates working in the Klinker Works as they did among the inmates out in the camp, which would be estimated roughly about eighty percent a year, is that right?
A In the Klinker Works the figure amounted to a little lower, because, as I have already stated working conditions were more mechanized, and, because a large percent age of inmates could work in rooms and offices, and the Klinker Works offered an advantage to that of the concentration camps outside especially of those who had to work under the free sky.
For example, in the construction of a canal. Approximately 1250 men would work on this project, they would work from 5 o'clock in the morning until they returned to camp in the evening, and they would be subjected to exposure to the weather. Of course, the mortality rate in this detachment was much higher, and the death rate in the detachment which worked at the brick works in the furnaces, was of course, high, which was only natural.
Q Now Mr. Bickel, how often did Mummenthey visit the Neuengamme concentration camp?
A Mummenthey came into the works at Neuengamme on an average, of twice a year, at the most three times. His visits increased at the end. I believe in 1945, in this four month-period, he visited three or four times, and his visit was limited exclusively to the Klinker Plant.
Q You are prepared to testify to the Tribunal that of your own knowledge, the defendant Mummenthey did not enter the concentration camp of Neuengamme, the concentration camp proper, but restricted his visits solely to the Klinker Works. Can you swear to that, witness?
A This is a very specific question, and in order to answer it more precisely, I'll have to think it over for a moment. I can not recall that Mummenthey entered the camp at Neuengamme. He may have been in on one possible case on an occasion of an inspection of the plant managers in the Summer of 1942. It mus have existed on that day, but I don't know that exactly whether an inspection of the concentration camp took place on that particular day, otherwise, throughout the period when I was there, and when I had knowledge of the visits of Mummenthey, Mummenthey did not visit the camp where the inmates were located.
However, I know this for certain, he had entered the SS camp several times in the concentration camp Neuengamme. You must make this question fit in that part of the camp where the SS was located; that was on the left, and the part of the camp which was inhabited by the inmates was the socalled Protective Custody Camp. Mummenthey, of course, would be the guest of the commandant, and he would enter the SS Camp.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you have considerable more cross examination, Mr. McHaney?
Mr .McHANEY: Well, Your Honor, I am afraid it will run fifteen minutes at least. Of course, I get rather long answers, and I anticipate there will be some redirect examination, and also some re-cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: You estimate fifteen minutes, then I estimate it thirty, and then the re-direct examination will take sometime. We will recess until Monday morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 09:30 hours Monday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 4 August 1947 at 0930 Hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 4 August, 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms president.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
HELMUT BICKEL - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q May it please the Tribunal, Mr. Bickel, I will remind you that you are still under oath. You have had a rest over the weekend, but I would still ask you to keep your answers very short so that we can get through with this examination in a few minutes.
I don't believe you have told us yet about the hours of work in the Klinker Works in Neuengamme. How many hours per day did the inmates work?
A The working hours varied to a considerable extent. They depended on the season. The working hours were fixed by the camp, especially with regard to the "alleged" security. For example, before dawn no inmate was allowed to leave the camp. After darkness set in the entire number of inmates had to be present in the camp. Of course the working hours were regulated accordingly; in summer the working hours were long, from six-thirty in the morning until five-thirty at night; and in winter the working hours were accordingly shorter. The working hours varied constantly. On the average, when we count the time off during the day, the working hours were between nine and twelve hours.
Q How much time did they get off for lunch?
A The lunchtime varied also. In winter, when the working hours were shorter, lunch time amounted to twenty or thirty minutes. In summertime it sometimes lasted as long as one hour. When, in summer time, we would have so-called "breakfast" we would eat something on those occasions, and in this connection I want to say that the length of these breaks varied. There were times when there were no breaks at all, and there were times when breaks were called in.
Q Now, as I understand it, the breakfast and evening meals were eaten in the camp, while the noon meal was eaten on the job, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Did the inmates have to stand rollcall in the morning before they went out on the job?
A In the morning, after reveille, and reveille was between four or six o'clock in the morning, according to the season, the inmates had to clean up as quickly as possible. Then they would receive the soup for breakfast--and its quality varied. After that there would be a rollcall. After the rollcall the details would move out for work.
The noon meal was distributed at the plant, and supper, at night, was issued in the camp after the details had returned from their work.
Then there would also be a rollcall in the evening before the supper was issued. The meals at night "varied considerably", to put it politely.
Q Then there were two rollcalls a day. How long did the rollcalls normally last?
A The morning rollcall was carried out rather quickly, generally. In spite of that it would last between a half hour and three-quarters of an hour. The evening rollcall depended on the temperament of the concentration camp guards. There were evening rollcalls which, in the best cases, lasted for half an hour. I have seen one evening rollcall last for thirty-six hour se-thirty six hours, that is one and a half days.
Q And the inmates had to stand outside in the open during these rollcalls, did they not?
A The inmates would have to stand in the open in the concentration camp at the square where the rollcalls were held.
At the Klinker Works the rollcall would be carried out in a room.
Q What do you mean that at the Klinker Works the rollcall would be carried out in a room? I understood they had a rollcall in the morning, before they went to work, and a rollcall in the evening when they came back from work. Now you mentioned a third rollcall. What was that?
A Besides these two rollcalls in the camp, we also had three rollcalls daily within the plant. These three rollcalls in the plant were carried out for the purpose of showing the man in charge of the detail from the concentration camp so he could be convinced three times a day that the number of inmates was still present in the camp, and that no inmate had escaped. These rollcalls at the plant took place as soon as a detail arrived at the plant in the morning. Then at noon, before the noon meal was issued, and then in the evening before the detail returned from the plant to the camp. Altogether, we would have five rollcalls a day.
Q Witness, isn't it true that each work detail had to check back in the camp in the evening with the same number of inmates that composed the detail that went out in the morning?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q And isn't it true that if certain of the inmates of a particular detail died or were killed during the course of the day on the job, then the remainder of the detail had to carry their dead inmates in to the rollcall place in the camp so that the dead could be counted in too?
A That is correct. For the guards of the concentration camp there was no difference between live inmates and dead inmates. It made no difference to them as long as the correct figures were given; whether these people were dead or alive did not make any difference at all.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, how many days a week did the inmates work in the Klinker Works?
A In the period of time up to 1942 there was a general regulation that there would not be a Sunday for the inmates. The time off on Sunday was an institution for the free persons at liverty and it was not for the people who were excluded from the national community. After 1942, in line with the advantages which were now given to the inmates, at least half a Sunday had to be given off for the inmates. The concentration camp commander was obliged to give this time off to the inmates. After that period of time only a very small number of inmates would be working in the plant on Sunday and they had to carry out constant work like, for example, operate the steam enginese, etc. They had to take care of furnaces and things like that. This work was extremely essential. However, this did not make any difference because when you were exempted from working in the plant, then the concentration camp commander was sure to find som possibility of keeping the inmates busy on Sunday for work of a personal nature. To what extent the camp leader and the camp commandant would violate the regulations and they did not fulfill their duty as far as the plants were concerned.
Q Mr. Bickel, about the food, I don't want a description in detail about what the inmates received, but I would like to have a general description about the adequacies of the nourishment received by the inmates and particularly with reference to their ability to perform work in the Klinker Works on the nourishment which they received.
A The food which the concentration camp gave to the inmates was not adequate in any way. Proof of that is the extremely large number of inmates who died directly or indirectly of starvation.
Q I think that is sufficient. Now, was the noon meal which they received in the Klinker Works served hot or cold?
A The noon meal was brought from the kitchen in special trays in order to keep the food warm and they were brought to the plant. As far as these containers functioned properly, if it was not too cold outside the food was quite warm. However, whenever the containers had some defect, the food, naturally, would be cold. In the course of one very severe winter we were suffering extremely from this deficiency in the containers.
Q What winter was that?
A That was the winter from 1940 to 1941, then 1941 to 1942, and the following winter also. In these five years we had rather severe winters in Neuengamme. Actually, I cannot mention any winter at all when the prerequisites which I have just stated did not apply.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, isn't it true that the works manager at Neuengamme made periodical reports to W-I on the Klinker Works?
A The reports of the plant manager of the Klinker Works at Neuengamme to the Office Chief were usually submitted very frequently and they were rather long. However, in view of the very great danger which existed for him, he had to write these reports with the utmost caution. For example, he could not say anything directly about death as a result of starvation or mention inmates who had been murdered. He always had to express himself in a very diplomatic way and he always had to place the most emphasis on the aspects of work. However, these reports had to show in the form in which they were written that the formation of the life of the inmates through the concentration camp administration was intolerable for the plant, therefore it had to be fatal for the inmate.
Q You say they were submitted frequently? Were they submitted once a month or more often?
AAt the beginning there was a rule that a construction report had to be submitted every month. Then they had to be submitted at regular time limits and they had to be sent out spordically.
They would be sent out occasionally then, but not within a certain set time limit.
Q. Mr. Bickel, didn't these reports show such things as the number of inmates employed, the turn-over in the inmates employed, sickness, death, inadequacies of clothing and food, such things as that?
A These reports of the Klinker Works to Officer W-1 contained the following:
(1) They gave the figure of the civilian employees, (2) the number of inmates employed, the extent of the production in the various fields, and then these reports stated figures which were important to the production of the plant and important to the work. Nothing was mentioned about the death rate and the number of sick employees' and other points, which were only of interest to the concentration camps. These things were not allowed to be mentioned in these reports about these figures were only the work of the camp medical officer and he on his own initiative would report to the Office Group Gluecks to which he was subordinated. He constantly had to submit these figures to that office group. I also know these reports in part and I found out that these reports from the medical office to office Group Gluecks very frequently contained false figures. He tried to repress the actual situation in these reports.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, I don't mean to argue with you, but isn't it important in assessing the production of a Klinker Works, for example, to know what the rate of turn-over of your employees is. For example, you've testified that the death rate in the camp at large ran up as high as 80% a year and that the death rate among the inmates employed in the Klinker Works was somewhat similar to that, perhaps a little lower, but that means that you are getting almost a complete turn-over of employees every year and I should think, without knowing too much about production problems that, that is a rather important factor for someone to know, that these employees are being replaced at a rather rapid rate. Wasn't that matter brought home to Amt W-I?
A Office W-I, of course, would obtain knowledge about the problem which you have just described. It would hear about the following: The form and extent of the mechanization in the Klinker Works made it very desirable and required that the number of employees remained the same. However, the inmates where the mortality rate was extremely high, as well as concentration camp inmates were included in the mortality rate. The inmates who worked in the mechanized part of the plant had a lower death rate than the inmates who worked outside. The inmates who worked in offices, in work shops, in machine halls, and so on, lived by far under better conditions and regard to the security of their lives and, of course, they also received better food. Therefore, we can say that when we look at the percentage 20 or 30 times the number of inmates died because they worked on the outside, when we compare it to the number of inmates who worked under a roof. Consequently---
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. I don't think that rranslation can be right. Did you mean 20 to 30 percent?
THE WITNESS: No sir. If out of 100 inmates who worked under a roof, one man died, then 20 to 30 out of a hundred inmates who had to work outside in winter weather would die.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
A (Continued) And a a result of this problem, Office W-I tried to put the inmates to a certain work. For example, we had one order, which I have already mentioned, on Friday. This order made it possible that inmates be given a permanent employment and they could receive special food and they could receive double pay. However, the execution did not take place at all, because of the ill will of the commanders.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Witness, didn't the defendant Mummenthey know from these monthly reports or otherwise gain knowledge of the high death rate, of sickness, of poor food, clothing, bad physical condition of the inmates?
AAbout the bad conditions of the inmates he must have had knowledge. About the high mortality rate I believe he was told lies by his colleagues in the other office groups and misinformed; and so he did not have any knowledge of it. He received false reports; and false facts were shown to him.
Q Now, witness, wasn't this man Kahn in charge of the Neuengamme Klinker Works?
A Yes.
Q Kahn knew all about these facts just as you knew them, didn't he?
A He knew only about affairs of the Klinker Works. The inmates told him about other matters, about the matters which happened in the camp. To a very small extent he believed something about that. He thought that the rest of it was exaggerated and consisted of rumors. Of course, he knew something about the entire scope of things. It did not make any difference if he knew about the exact figures of the mortality rate or any other details.
Q And didn't Mummenthey discuss these matters with Kahn?
A I can imagine that Kahn, in his caution, even if he informed him, which certainly must have been the case, gave him very cautious notice of what had happened. The fact that on the part of Mummenthey and on the part of the business management attempts were made which aimed at the alleviation of conditions or at least the improving of them--all this showed me that this party had knowledge of it; otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense even to make any efforts to improve the conditions.
Q Yes, I should think so. Now, you testified at some length about the fact that the terrible conditions in concentration camps were a matter of common knowledge in Germany. I would like to ask you if you personally knew whether Jews were being exterminated en masse by the German government.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes.
Q I'll ask you if the extermination of the Jews was not a matter of common knowledge in Germany.
A There is no doubt whatsoever that every German, no matter what position he held and no matter where he lived, must have known about the persecution and the extermination of the Jews. To what extent he had knowledge, and if he more or less had knowledge, does not make any difference at all in this connection. There are very few Germans who did not see at their right or at their left how one or another Jew disappeared. Just like the fires of the crematoria at Auschwitz and Guethenau, which showed even behind the barbed wire of Neuengamme, just like that the glow of the great murdering which was carried out at Auschwitz must have shown into the very last corner of Germany. It was uncomfortable for the Germans to see that. Every German knew what was going on. They knew about the Gestapo. They did not like this institution very much. They knew that it was wrong and incorrect. However, with this knowledge they should have made it their duty regarding the Hitler Youth or the Winterhilfswerk or the KDF to sabotage all these organizations as far as they could in their positions. In the concentration camps we did not demand of them that they be active against the Third Reich, but we wanted a passive resistance. That would have been quite sufficient in a few weeks to stop this murdering which was carried out. However, as I already stated on Friday, it was very uncomfortable for the people to see it; and it was more pleasant to go to the opera in the evening and the KDF. That was much easier than to recognize their own feelings.
Q Now, witness, you've tended to distinguish between the responsibility of the camp administration at Neuengamme for the mistreatment of inmates and the work and responsibility of W/I with respect to the Klinker Works at Neuengamme. I will ask you if you know what that chart is on the wall before you.
A I have looked at it and studied the chart during the last few days; and I must say that it is not quite correct with regard to its Court No. II, Case No. 4.structure.
Q Just a minute now, Witness. We are not interested about the correctness of the chart. I'll change my question and ask you if you knew that Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA was in charge of the administration of all concentration camps. Did you know that or not?
A The concentration camps were exclusively administered by the office group which was directed by Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks. The administration was exclusively a matter of the RSHA.
Q Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks was chief of Amtsgruppe D, was he not, Witness?
A Gluecks, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
Q He was Chief of Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA?
A Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks was the Chief of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps. I don't know for certain whether he was also the Chief of Office Group D. That was some primitive knowledge which we had obtained; but we knew that Gluecks was master of life and death in the concentration camps. From our knowledge we put him in complete contrast with W-Group, the WVHA-Group. I only know that, and I am somewhat astonished about this chart here to see that Gluecks was subordinated exclusively to the Reich Security Main Office, the RSHA; and I must limit myself here. As far as I have any official knowledge, Pohl could not interfere with them at all. Gluecks was completely independent; and whatever happened in the organization showed that Gluecks was not under the command of a higher person, with the exception of Kaltenbrunner or, before that, Heydrich.
Q Witness, your answer almost makes my next question superfluous. You did not know, as a matter of fact, that the defendant Pohl as Chief of the WVHA took over the administrative direction of all German concentration camps in March 1942 and that Gluecks was subordinated exclusively to Pohl and after that date? Did you know that or not?
A I know about this organizational change. However, I only thought this was a change in the organization. I did not think it meant any difference with regard to the subordination because if this change Court No. II, Case No. 4.had any practical sense, then the order which was issued at the same time, that the commanders were to become directors of the works, would have been completely superfluous.
Q Witness, if you had known, as a matter of fact, which you didn't, that the WVHA and more particularly Amtsgruppe D in itself controlled the administration of all German concentration camps in which Amtsgruppe W operated industries, then you would have some difficulty in making the distinction in responsibility which you have made to this Tribunal, wouldn't you?
A The responsibility must be divided according to the facts and not according to the organization. For normal thinking people and logical people, of course, the organizational chart is decisive. However, since this Main Office was so complicated, there was so much confusion for reasons which I have already given on Friday, that, since we knew exactly what positions our SS masters held, we did not pay any attention to the external organization. It was a fact that the concentration camp commanders, the men who were our masters, were opposed to the plants. We knew that the plants offered a certain safety for us, if you can speak about safety at all. We could expect something good from the plants because we were needed there as workers, and the concentration camps on their part would only torture us. We could expect only death and bad things from them because the concentration camps did not need our work. That was our practical line of thought. The SS had such a bad organization because everybody wanted to have as much power as possible; and he was not able to hold that position since he lacked the capability. Everybody tried to gain more power than he actually was able to possess by virtue of his knowledge and experience; and so the SS got trapped in its own organizational strings. That's the situation.
Q Witness, isn't it true that your knowledge and information about these conflicts comes from the level of a concentration camp, namely Neuengamme, and that this struggle for power is one which we might expect to find in any group on that level; and you are actually not able to inform the Tribunal about responsibility in the sphere of jurisdiction in the level up above as represented by that chart, are you?
AAbout the responsibility in the legal respects, I cannot express any opinion whatsoever. I can only tell you objectively just what we have seen in the years of suffering. In these years of suffering the situation was such that this abnormal struggle for power was one which cannot be compared with the normal struggle at all, and through the concentration camp commanders very many valuable human lives were lost. On the other hand, according to what I have seen personally, attempts were made, and frequent attempts were made, to maintain these lives so that they could carry out work in the plants.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q I think you have covered practically all of the phases of the life of concentration camps with the exception of the cleanliness and the way and manner in which the bodies were taken care of from the standpoint of health in the camp, cleanliness and sanitation.
A Cleanliness and hygiene in the camp were one of the worst points that existed. We lacked these facilities completely when I came into the concentration camp. I am now referring to Nuengamme. We only had straw to lie on and the result was that we had a lot of lice and, only when lice appeared in such large numbers and we were afraid that a typhus epidemic would break out and that this also endangered the SS people, a delousing was carried out. The pleasant part of the epidemic was that it did not only affect inmates but also affected the gentry of the SS. That some measures of cleanliness were carried out, was only the task and merit of the inmates. On the part of the plants at that period of lacks some very modem bathing facilities were installed. However, these were only to be used by the civilian employees. Ten baths were constructed which were very modern. However, we only had three civilian employees. Finally the plant manager ordered that inmates could take baths there unofficially during working hours. You had to do it in a secret manner because there were several SS-Scharfuehrers from Neuengamme who, whenever they caught an inmate bathing, would have him maltreated severely. I can recall a Pole by the name of Sialdowsky who, on one occasion was found while taking a bath and Unterscharfuehrer Kuemmel almost beat him to death.
Q What Prisoners of War did you have in Neuengamme?
A In August 1941 1200 Soviet Prisoners of War arrived in the concentration camp Neuengamme. They were not immediately murdered. Before that time already some transports of Soviet Prisoners of War had arrived, amongst them a transport with women. They were immediately murdered, received a bullet in the neck or were gased.
Q About how many in this group?
A The group which remained alive amounted to 1200 men. The group Court No. II, Case No. 4.which had been murdered before amounted to three or four hundred people.
The 1200 Russian Prisoners of War were accommodated in the concentration camp and before the two barracks there was a special barbed wire fence and the sign was put there and the sign contained the following words: "Prisoner of War Camp". The Prisoners of War were kept away from us and they were particularly mistreated. Their treatment was so bad that we would even give them some of our very meagre rations.
Q Did you have any other Prisoners of War than Soviet Prisoners of War there?
A Occasionally we had other prisoners of war. However, they lost their status of prisoner of war when they entered the concentration camp. We very frequently had Polish prisoners of war who had escaped from their work or who had fraternized with German girls during their work.
Q Did you have any French Prisoners of War there?
A We had a relatively large number of French prisoners of war. They were sent to the concentration camp under similar conditions. That was up to 1944. Then the situation changed with regard to French Prisoners of War. After the invasion by the Allies the French Intelligence was taken out of the country and brought into the concentration camps. Amongst them were also officials who up to that time had been left at liberty in France, especially officers with higher ranks, Colonels and Generals. These people were kept separate from us.
Q How were they treated?
A They were treated better. They were allowed to keep their own clothing and were not subject to any "schikane". That was not on account of humanity so much as it was the sense of mastery of the SS. Amongst the prisoners we had ministers, for example, Leon Blum, who for a short time was sent from another camp to Neuengamme. We had some bishops and ministers and diplomats of higher rank. To one Prussian SS non-commissioned officer, it was a special satisfaction to see men of such high rank who had already rendered valuable service and he liked to see these inmates before him as prisoners. That is why these inmates were not Court No. II, Case No. 4.mistreated to a considerable extent.