Q I think that is sufficient. Now, was the noon meal which they received in the Klinker Works served hot or cold?
A The noon meal was brought from the kitchen in special trays in order to keep the food warm and they were brought to the plant. As far as these containers functioned properly, if it was not too cold outside the food was quite warm. However, whenever the containers had some defect, the food, naturally, would be cold. In the course of one very severe winter we were suffering extremely from this deficiency in the containers.
Q What winter was that?
A That was the winter from 1940 to 1941, then 1941 to 1942, and the following winter also. In these five years we had rather severe winters in Neuengamme. Actually, I cannot mention any winter at all when the prerequisites which I have just stated did not apply.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, isn't it true that the works manager at Neuengamme made periodical reports to W-I on the Klinker Works?
A The reports of the plant manager of the Klinker Works at Neuengamme to the Office Chief were usually submitted very frequently and they were rather long. However, in view of the very great danger which existed for him, he had to write these reports with the utmost caution. For example, he could not say anything directly about death as a result of starvation or mention inmates who had been murdered. He always had to express himself in a very diplomatic way and he always had to place the most emphasis on the aspects of work. However, these reports had to show in the form in which they were written that the formation of the life of the inmates through the concentration camp administration was intolerable for the plant, therefore it had to be fatal for the inmate.
Q You say they were submitted frequently? Were they submitted once a month or more often?
AAt the beginning there was a rule that a construction report had to be submitted every month. Then they had to be submitted at regular time limits and they had to be sent out spordically.
They would be sent out occasionally then, but not within a certain set time limit.
Q. Mr. Bickel, didn't these reports show such things as the number of inmates employed, the turn-over in the inmates employed, sickness, death, inadequacies of clothing and food, such things as that?
A These reports of the Klinker Works to Officer W-1 contained the following:
(1) They gave the figure of the civilian employees, (2) the number of inmates employed, the extent of the production in the various fields, and then these reports stated figures which were important to the production of the plant and important to the work. Nothing was mentioned about the death rate and the number of sick employees' and other points, which were only of interest to the concentration camps. These things were not allowed to be mentioned in these reports about these figures were only the work of the camp medical officer and he on his own initiative would report to the Office Group Gluecks to which he was subordinated. He constantly had to submit these figures to that office group. I also know these reports in part and I found out that these reports from the medical office to office Group Gluecks very frequently contained false figures. He tried to repress the actual situation in these reports.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, I don't mean to argue with you, but isn't it important in assessing the production of a Klinker Works, for example, to know what the rate of turn-over of your employees is. For example, you've testified that the death rate in the camp at large ran up as high as 80% a year and that the death rate among the inmates employed in the Klinker Works was somewhat similar to that, perhaps a little lower, but that means that you are getting almost a complete turn-over of employees every year and I should think, without knowing too much about production problems that, that is a rather important factor for someone to know, that these employees are being replaced at a rather rapid rate. Wasn't that matter brought home to Amt W-I?
A Office W-I, of course, would obtain knowledge about the problem which you have just described. It would hear about the following: The form and extent of the mechanization in the Klinker Works made it very desirable and required that the number of employees remained the same. However, the inmates where the mortality rate was extremely high, as well as concentration camp inmates were included in the mortality rate. The inmates who worked in the mechanized part of the plant had a lower death rate than the inmates who worked outside. The inmates who worked in offices, in work shops, in machine halls, and so on, lived by far under better conditions and regard to the security of their lives and, of course, they also received better food. Therefore, we can say that when we look at the percentage 20 or 30 times the number of inmates died because they worked on the outside, when we compare it to the number of inmates who worked under a roof. Consequently---
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. I don't think that rranslation can be right. Did you mean 20 to 30 percent?
THE WITNESS: No sir. If out of 100 inmates who worked under a roof, one man died, then 20 to 30 out of a hundred inmates who had to work outside in winter weather would die.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
A (Continued) And a a result of this problem, Office W-I tried to put the inmates to a certain work. For example, we had one order, which I have already mentioned, on Friday. This order made it possible that inmates be given a permanent employment and they could receive special food and they could receive double pay. However, the execution did not take place at all, because of the ill will of the commanders.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Witness, didn't the defendant Mummenthey know from these monthly reports or otherwise gain knowledge of the high death rate, of sickness, of poor food, clothing, bad physical condition of the inmates?
AAbout the bad conditions of the inmates he must have had knowledge. About the high mortality rate I believe he was told lies by his colleagues in the other office groups and misinformed; and so he did not have any knowledge of it. He received false reports; and false facts were shown to him.
Q Now, witness, wasn't this man Kahn in charge of the Neuengamme Klinker Works?
A Yes.
Q Kahn knew all about these facts just as you knew them, didn't he?
A He knew only about affairs of the Klinker Works. The inmates told him about other matters, about the matters which happened in the camp. To a very small extent he believed something about that. He thought that the rest of it was exaggerated and consisted of rumors. Of course, he knew something about the entire scope of things. It did not make any difference if he knew about the exact figures of the mortality rate or any other details.
Q And didn't Mummenthey discuss these matters with Kahn?
A I can imagine that Kahn, in his caution, even if he informed him, which certainly must have been the case, gave him very cautious notice of what had happened. The fact that on the part of Mummenthey and on the part of the business management attempts were made which aimed at the alleviation of conditions or at least the improving of them--all this showed me that this party had knowledge of it; otherwise it wouldn't have made any sense even to make any efforts to improve the conditions.
Q Yes, I should think so. Now, you testified at some length about the fact that the terrible conditions in concentration camps were a matter of common knowledge in Germany. I would like to ask you if you personally knew whether Jews were being exterminated en masse by the German government.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes.
Q I'll ask you if the extermination of the Jews was not a matter of common knowledge in Germany.
A There is no doubt whatsoever that every German, no matter what position he held and no matter where he lived, must have known about the persecution and the extermination of the Jews. To what extent he had knowledge, and if he more or less had knowledge, does not make any difference at all in this connection. There are very few Germans who did not see at their right or at their left how one or another Jew disappeared. Just like the fires of the crematoria at Auschwitz and Guethenau, which showed even behind the barbed wire of Neuengamme, just like that the glow of the great murdering which was carried out at Auschwitz must have shown into the very last corner of Germany. It was uncomfortable for the Germans to see that. Every German knew what was going on. They knew about the Gestapo. They did not like this institution very much. They knew that it was wrong and incorrect. However, with this knowledge they should have made it their duty regarding the Hitler Youth or the Winterhilfswerk or the KDF to sabotage all these organizations as far as they could in their positions. In the concentration camps we did not demand of them that they be active against the Third Reich, but we wanted a passive resistance. That would have been quite sufficient in a few weeks to stop this murdering which was carried out. However, as I already stated on Friday, it was very uncomfortable for the people to see it; and it was more pleasant to go to the opera in the evening and the KDF. That was much easier than to recognize their own feelings.
Q Now, witness, you've tended to distinguish between the responsibility of the camp administration at Neuengamme for the mistreatment of inmates and the work and responsibility of W/I with respect to the Klinker Works at Neuengamme. I will ask you if you know what that chart is on the wall before you.
A I have looked at it and studied the chart during the last few days; and I must say that it is not quite correct with regard to its Court No. II, Case No. 4.structure.
Q Just a minute now, Witness. We are not interested about the correctness of the chart. I'll change my question and ask you if you knew that Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA was in charge of the administration of all concentration camps. Did you know that or not?
A The concentration camps were exclusively administered by the office group which was directed by Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks. The administration was exclusively a matter of the RSHA.
Q Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks was chief of Amtsgruppe D, was he not, Witness?
A Gluecks, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks.
Q He was Chief of Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA?
A Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks was the Chief of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps. I don't know for certain whether he was also the Chief of Office Group D. That was some primitive knowledge which we had obtained; but we knew that Gluecks was master of life and death in the concentration camps. From our knowledge we put him in complete contrast with W-Group, the WVHA-Group. I only know that, and I am somewhat astonished about this chart here to see that Gluecks was subordinated exclusively to the Reich Security Main Office, the RSHA; and I must limit myself here. As far as I have any official knowledge, Pohl could not interfere with them at all. Gluecks was completely independent; and whatever happened in the organization showed that Gluecks was not under the command of a higher person, with the exception of Kaltenbrunner or, before that, Heydrich.
Q Witness, your answer almost makes my next question superfluous. You did not know, as a matter of fact, that the defendant Pohl as Chief of the WVHA took over the administrative direction of all German concentration camps in March 1942 and that Gluecks was subordinated exclusively to Pohl and after that date? Did you know that or not?
A I know about this organizational change. However, I only thought this was a change in the organization. I did not think it meant any difference with regard to the subordination because if this change Court No. II, Case No. 4.had any practical sense, then the order which was issued at the same time, that the commanders were to become directors of the works, would have been completely superfluous.
Q Witness, if you had known, as a matter of fact, which you didn't, that the WVHA and more particularly Amtsgruppe D in itself controlled the administration of all German concentration camps in which Amtsgruppe W operated industries, then you would have some difficulty in making the distinction in responsibility which you have made to this Tribunal, wouldn't you?
A The responsibility must be divided according to the facts and not according to the organization. For normal thinking people and logical people, of course, the organizational chart is decisive. However, since this Main Office was so complicated, there was so much confusion for reasons which I have already given on Friday, that, since we knew exactly what positions our SS masters held, we did not pay any attention to the external organization. It was a fact that the concentration camp commanders, the men who were our masters, were opposed to the plants. We knew that the plants offered a certain safety for us, if you can speak about safety at all. We could expect something good from the plants because we were needed there as workers, and the concentration camps on their part would only torture us. We could expect only death and bad things from them because the concentration camps did not need our work. That was our practical line of thought. The SS had such a bad organization because everybody wanted to have as much power as possible; and he was not able to hold that position since he lacked the capability. Everybody tried to gain more power than he actually was able to possess by virtue of his knowledge and experience; and so the SS got trapped in its own organizational strings. That's the situation.
Q Witness, isn't it true that your knowledge and information about these conflicts comes from the level of a concentration camp, namely Neuengamme, and that this struggle for power is one which we might expect to find in any group on that level; and you are actually not able to inform the Tribunal about responsibility in the sphere of jurisdiction in the level up above as represented by that chart, are you?
AAbout the responsibility in the legal respects, I cannot express any opinion whatsoever. I can only tell you objectively just what we have seen in the years of suffering. In these years of suffering the situation was such that this abnormal struggle for power was one which cannot be compared with the normal struggle at all, and through the concentration camp commanders very many valuable human lives were lost. On the other hand, according to what I have seen personally, attempts were made, and frequent attempts were made, to maintain these lives so that they could carry out work in the plants.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q I think you have covered practically all of the phases of the life of concentration camps with the exception of the cleanliness and the way and manner in which the bodies were taken care of from the standpoint of health in the camp, cleanliness and sanitation.
A Cleanliness and hygiene in the camp were one of the worst points that existed. We lacked these facilities completely when I came into the concentration camp. I am now referring to Nuengamme. We only had straw to lie on and the result was that we had a lot of lice and, only when lice appeared in such large numbers and we were afraid that a typhus epidemic would break out and that this also endangered the SS people, a delousing was carried out. The pleasant part of the epidemic was that it did not only affect inmates but also affected the gentry of the SS. That some measures of cleanliness were carried out, was only the task and merit of the inmates. On the part of the plants at that period of lacks some very modem bathing facilities were installed. However, these were only to be used by the civilian employees. Ten baths were constructed which were very modern. However, we only had three civilian employees. Finally the plant manager ordered that inmates could take baths there unofficially during working hours. You had to do it in a secret manner because there were several SS-Scharfuehrers from Neuengamme who, whenever they caught an inmate bathing, would have him maltreated severely. I can recall a Pole by the name of Sialdowsky who, on one occasion was found while taking a bath and Unterscharfuehrer Kuemmel almost beat him to death.
Q What Prisoners of War did you have in Neuengamme?
A In August 1941 1200 Soviet Prisoners of War arrived in the concentration camp Neuengamme. They were not immediately murdered. Before that time already some transports of Soviet Prisoners of War had arrived, amongst them a transport with women. They were immediately murdered, received a bullet in the neck or were gased.
Q About how many in this group?
A The group which remained alive amounted to 1200 men. The group Court No. II, Case No. 4.which had been murdered before amounted to three or four hundred people.
The 1200 Russian Prisoners of War were accommodated in the concentration camp and before the two barracks there was a special barbed wire fence and the sign was put there and the sign contained the following words: "Prisoner of War Camp". The Prisoners of War were kept away from us and they were particularly mistreated. Their treatment was so bad that we would even give them some of our very meagre rations.
Q Did you have any other Prisoners of War than Soviet Prisoners of War there?
A Occasionally we had other prisoners of war. However, they lost their status of prisoner of war when they entered the concentration camp. We very frequently had Polish prisoners of war who had escaped from their work or who had fraternized with German girls during their work.
Q Did you have any French Prisoners of War there?
A We had a relatively large number of French prisoners of war. They were sent to the concentration camp under similar conditions. That was up to 1944. Then the situation changed with regard to French Prisoners of War. After the invasion by the Allies the French Intelligence was taken out of the country and brought into the concentration camps. Amongst them were also officials who up to that time had been left at liberty in France, especially officers with higher ranks, Colonels and Generals. These people were kept separate from us.
Q How were they treated?
A They were treated better. They were allowed to keep their own clothing and were not subject to any "schikane". That was not on account of humanity so much as it was the sense of mastery of the SS. Amongst the prisoners we had ministers, for example, Leon Blum, who for a short time was sent from another camp to Neuengamme. We had some bishops and ministers and diplomats of higher rank. To one Prussian SS non-commissioned officer, it was a special satisfaction to see men of such high rank who had already rendered valuable service and he liked to see these inmates before him as prisoners. That is why these inmates were not Court No. II, Case No. 4.mistreated to a considerable extent.
As far as food was concerned they suffered along with us until the Swedish Red Cross took care of them and also of us. That was early in the autumn of 1944.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Witness, what ultimately happened to those 1200 Russian Prisoners of War that you said were not immediately killed?
A These 1200 Russian Prisoners of War were to work. However, they were unable to work any more because they were facing death by starvation. In 1942 they again returned to a Prisoner of War camp. However, the number of inmates who left the camp amounted to approximately 200 and these 200 men were not human beings any more but were only wrecks. Actually they were sent to work. However, in the meantime there was a quarantine because of typhus and at that time they were unable to carry out any productive work.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HAENSEL FOR GEORG LOERNER:
Q Witness, since the Tribunal has asked you a number of questions which I intended to ask you I only want to ask you about a very few things. Please tell me this, are you before a Tribunal for the first time with regard to the question of concentration camps?
A No, I already testified before British Military Courts about this question. I was examined by the British Prosecution.
Q I am not referring to the Prosecution now but did you testify in open court - how many times did you appear in open court?
A I can't remember.
Q Well, 20 times or 30 times?
A I have already stated I don't know that any more. You can't put down any figure for me because this question is not relevant at all to the objectivity of my testimony.
Q Well, yes it does. Since you don't want to answer my question that gives me reason to still want to refresh your memory to some extent. I am not referring to interrogations before an interrogator. I can forget the number of times I have been interrogated but I am talking about Court No. II, Case No. 4.your giving testimony before an open court.
After all, you should remember a number like that. I know exactly that I was interrogated 32 times or something like that, if it applies. Will you say something about that number?
A Mr. Defense counsel, if here we are discussing a question that I have to rely on my memory completely then your figures may be correct. However, here we have a question which affects my memory and my heart and brain so much that I am grateful to the Lord every hour that I don't have to think of it and have to be reminded of it. After I left the British Court as a witness then you can believe me I was glad when I forgot that. I have no dearer wish today than to be able to forget after such activity of testifying. I don't think that the objectivity which has been empowered to us has been suitable with all people who maintain such up to date.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, now you can answer this question I am sure. Dr. Haensel has asked you about how many times you have testified as to war crimes in open court. Now, was it twice or was it 50 times?
A Your Honor, it was approximately 10 times in open sessions.
THE PRESIDENT: That you see you could have told the first time, he asked you..."about ten times" - see how simple it is.
A Oh, yes, your Honor, but I didn't know what the defense counsel was trying to put against me in this matter. I didn't know if he considered a session as such or an interrogation, or if he was referring to interrogations before an interrogator. In such things I want to be extremely careful.
THE PRESIDENT: With Dr. Haensel you should be very cautious.
A Thank you for the very good warning that you gave me.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q I also wanted to point out to the witness, whether he couldn't change the number of 10 a little bit.
A. I don't want to give any further testimony about the number of trials where I have appeared as a witness. I want you to acknowledge that fact.
Q. I understand completely when you say that you would like to forget these things, and that you don't want to be reminded of them. However, you wrote here and you offered to appear as a witness, isn't that true?
A. I received a request from an authority -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes or no.
A. I wrote to the Prosecution, and at the same time, for reasons of objectivity, I gave knowledge of that to the defense counsel of Mummenthey. That was my idea of duty on the basis of the orders which I received.
THE PRESIDENT: So the answer is yes?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Dr. Haensel) In the long chain of interrogations, no matter whether they were ten or as I assume thirty, did you always give the same description, or did your description change in the course of the years?
A. There is so much nerve in your question that I can only describe it as being completely sadistic. However, with respect, in view of the high Tribunal, I can answer that question. Murderers will remain murderers. The motives and the reasons for murder always remain the same. Nothing can change in that, and nothing can change in my memory and in the memory of the people who have seen it happen. The hatred may change. The example of the Allies for objectivity has made me realize it. However, the facts, Mr. Defense Counsel, and I want you to accept that as a legal expert, the facts cannot be changed.
Q. Witness, if you only had told us about facts then I wouldn't ask you this question. However, you have raised accusations against the German people which have not been raised so far. You have made charges which have nothing to do with murders.
If I ask you here about these things, I am not doing that in order to change anything in the murders that happened. I regret that they happened, and I think that the perpetrators should be punished. However, the question of the guilt which the Tribunal has to clarify here, I would like to go into the details of that subject. For this reason it is important for us to know whether the claim which you have raised here, and which you have repeated today, and which is of the greatest importance in this trial, whether you have maintained this allegation from the very beginning, or whether you gained your conviction later on?
A. In a negative respect you have quite rightly assumed that my opinion has changed to some extent, but on the 3rd of May, 1945, I left the concentration camp Neuengamme as the last and the only inmate --- and when I turned over the camp to the British Army on that day, I had voiced the request that a group should be appointed in the concentration camp, and that a circle be made of five kilometers and everything living within this circle should be shot with a bullet in the neck beginning with babies up to old men. In the objective sense, in a quite sober sense that was the first result, that was a result as fresh as blood to what I had seen. As today I explain soberly the things, then I must say that I have changed my conviction to some extent. I changed my conviction exclusively as a result of the example which the Allies have given us. However, I have not to decide here over guilt or innocence. I just report the facts very simply. Only this high Tribunal will decide about the question of guilt. The question whether it is a collective guilt or not --- it is not my task to decide. I am only here to give the facts which might cause the verdict to be negative or positive.
Q. Yes. You see in Hamlet here we have a speech by the hero and an actor, and here he says, approximately this: "And who amongst us does not deserve punishment?" Don't you understand me?
A. Yes, I understand you, and I shall also give you an answer by the poet. In Goetz von Berlichingen we have on word which says, "Speak clearly and unmistakably and just as your heart feels. Then all people will understand you." That is from Goethe's Goetz von Berlichingen.
Q. Yes, that is a sentence which is quoted very frequently. However, let me continue now in my questions. The impression which you have stated here, as far as I was able to understand it, from the time you spent in concentration-camp confinement, and this conviction lasted up to the collapse in 1945, and for ten years you were unable to leave the camp.
A. Yes, that is correct, from 1935 to 1945 I was incarcerated, and I must emphasize that here, as I have already stated on Friday, the last ten weeks, from the 10th of February until the 3rd of May, I was in the camp, I was in the big camp area, but I was not pure inmate any more. As you have heard on Friday, a short time before, by recommendation of the plant, I had lost my status as inmate and I now became a civilian bookkeeper at the same place of work--
Q. --and please don't forget Goetz von Berlichingen, I mean the following --- you were in the camp and other Germans were outside the camp, and they were two to three?
A. Yes, they were two to three.
Q. You had the impression that from the outside help should have come to you and nobody helped you?
A. Yes. No, I did not have that impression. I knew my German fellow nationals too well for that.
Q. You just spoke about the Allies. The general situation in Germany was such that people said, "We are not able to do anything about the Hitlerite organizations, and help must come from the outside, from abroad". Do you know that opinion?
A. I know that opinion, and even today it is being maintained.
People should say today, "We must do our share today, and we must not only depend upon the American wheat." You see at that time the German people should have said," I shall do my part, and I shall not do anything against it, against this help." Very well, if people spent forty pfennigs for the Winterhilfswerk and if your wife spent some money for that and she spent some money for the treasury of Streicher and Ley, you see, this was no help. This was nothing to support the Allies, but this money was used against the Allies. This at least was against the Allies in a psychological sense. Don't forget that in a newspaper on Monday about the Winterhilfswerk, instead of saying that thirteen million marks were collected, Your Propaganda Minister would say: The German people are backing up the Fuehrer, but I would like to refer to him as a madman.
Q. Yes, I would like to quiet you down on the last point. We were of the opinion that the number of millions was always fixed before the contributions were counted. However, let's come back to my question now. You have stated --
THE PRESIDENT: Better than that, Dr. Haensel, I say better than that, let's come back to the indictment. This is very interesting. I don't like to stop it, but don't you think we should do it in your library or some place like that? We must try the lawsuit, and that does not include trying the German people.
DR. HAENSEL: I understand you very well, your Honor, and please permit me to ask the witness a very brief question. I think it is important for the case. In the very last point that is important for Count IV in the indictment.
Q. (By Dr. Haensel) You agreed with me that the German people believed that help would have to come from the outside and that this pinion was not quite justified. However, don't you think that the same situation prevailed with regard to the concentration camps? There was an opinion that now, afterwards, if you really had knowledge of what happened there, we cannot understand that the concentration camp inmates just took everything that was done to them.
You have to admit to me that a large number of people like yourself and other citizens have stated here you could count upon the fact that you would die anyhow. Why wasn't there any resistance in the camps? Why wasn't the resistance in the concentration camps there so strong that it should have been heard on the outside?
A. Mr. Defense Counsel, I cannot explain that to you in words. May I show you something through my deed? I shall give you ten minutes of concentration-camp instructions and then you will know that we could not do anything to defend ourselves, ten minutes of instructions in fact, then the question which in my opinion has been clarified for everybody has also been clarified for you. However, I want to include something else here. Even in the concentration camp we had people who gave their lives for the right of humanity. On most every evening which God let us live in the concentration camp Neuengamme there would be public executions. All the inmates had to stand in a formation, and in the middle there was a gallows. Here the inmates were led up and hanged. There were very many inmates here, a very large number who were hanged because they had committed sabotage, because they had sabotaged an armament factory, for example. I can recall one Belgian engineer, by the name of Pierre. He manufactured torpedo tubes for the U-boats. He had to weld them together. He welded them together in such a way, with a seam, that immediately after the first shot was fired it had to break, and he have his life for that. You see, even here where it was practically impossible to take any active measures we could offer passive resistance. We helped the Allies in line with our own liberation. That was the situation.
Q And now we have the question of knowledge. Did people outside the camp hear about the details which you have just stated?
A Unless there were any particular reasons for secrecy. Actually the birds could sing these stories from the roofs in the neighboring cities. Only from the most internal secrets, people couldn't know anything about; however, we were only a few kilometers from there, and there were only a very few people who did not know everything. Don't forget one thing, Mr. Defense Counsel, that the power of a rumor is usually stronger than could be stopped by walls, even if they are meters thick. Only that is important. Secrets can be stopped by your ear drums only if you don't want your ears to hear it, or because the truth is unpleasant for you. And if unpleasantness is a guilt, go ahead and ask me more!
Q I also wanted to lead you to make your last statement, however, you are making a big jump here. When you came to the word convenience don't you think that it is much more important than the word "fanaticism" and the opinion which you can't do anything. Does it have to be convenience?
A Whenever I raised my charges of guilt, I also had the word -"German convenience". We had a great excuse, if not a total excuse. Mr. Defense Counsel, from the motives which you have just stated, I can not deduct any excuse in that very extensive form. If you want to go further than I have, then go ahead. My opinion is not so much against the German people as you have alleged just now in your question. As you have just claimed about the question, I can speak about what I have actually seen.
Q I don't know if you had much contact with Austrians; however, I would like to conclude the subject in recalling a phrase which went around in Austria. There was a slogan, and the Viennese said: "National Socialism is not a philosophy, but it is just a constant chasing around."?
A No, I didn't hear that. We had many Austrians in the camp, and I only met the greatest Austrian, and the greatest Austrian was an insane man; otherwise, I don't recall anything about the Austrians.
Q Well, it was very good to know that he was an Austrian.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the saying, Dr. Haensel, that the Austrians had?
DR. HAENSEL: It was a constant chasing around.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for the defendant Scheide): Your Honor, I only have three questions. Since I have already discussed the subject on Friday, I was always of the opinion that this was a defense witness. Just now I heard that the witness had turned to the prosecution.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q I didn't know that at the time, is that correct? I didn't know that?
A I want to repeat this once more. All committees have received the request that all inmates who knew anything about W-I should report. Of course, it was my duty to comply with this request, and in order to be objective, I notified the defense counsel of Mummenthey about the things which I knew which concerned. Mummenthey. I think that I have stated that for the third time now. After all, we are obstructing the work of the Tribunal here.
Q However, I have understood you to say that you have turned to the prosecution. Then I misunderstood you?
A I received the request by the authorities and the committee that all former inmates who knew something about the competency of W-I from their activity in the concentration camps, and for this reason, I informed the prosecution here of my address and told them just what knowledge I had. At the same time, I notified, for reasons of finesse, the defense counsel for Mummenthey, and I told him that I knew certain points about the work of Mummenthey, is that clear?
Q No, I have only heard it twice now. Witness, you said that the glow from Auschwitz could be seen in Neuengamme.
A Yes, that is correct. That was only in the symbolic sense. I didn't mean it actually. And he who didn't think it was a symbol should have looked at the map, he could see it there.
Q Witness, one more question. Do you have a family?
A Yes. My first marriage ended as a result of the fact that my wife died while I was imprisoned.
Q Aren't your parents alive anymore?
A No, they are dead. During my time in the concentration camp, all my family, with the exception of a brother, died.
Q And now you have remarried?
A I don't know what this has to do with the trial.
Q Witness, I am talking quite openly. You were talking about various things because I want to ask you what did those people do who were next to you. If you say now that nobody contributed to your liberation and helped you in order to alleviate your suffering, and I want to know whether you include these people in the general guilt question?
A The family of a concentration camp inmate, in the material sense and psychologically they did so much that they can say with a good conscience that they actually used to ride behind us. They were on our side. They even saved on their food -- and I am now referring to a special case -- in order to send things to me. That was a part which they contributed to maintain our lives. In order to give you an example, we did not receive any underwear in the camp. Whenever we received underwear we would only receive what had belonged to murdered Frenchmen, Poles, or Jews. However, as a result of an order by the W-Offices, we could have our own underwear sent to us. In the course of the many years -- and this was for the first time in 1941 -- many things disappeared as in the 6 years before. For example, my brother would send his shirts to me.